Bring Back The Score Board
Lux
Join Date: 2002-11-17 Member: 9078Members
Join Date: 2002-11-17 Member: 9078Members
I was talking with smokedham last night, we agreed a big problem with 2.0 is the lack of a score board.
I know people have said it discourages team play and premotes personal skill, but seriously folks who would play cs (publicly) if you couldent see your kills? no one! I have been playing cs seince beta 5.4 and I thought it was getting worse and worse, but they never took out score, that would have made me quit instantly (as a pubber). I use cs as an example but most hl mods have score boards that reflect your kills and score as a team (this is for a reason). Do people still work as a team in pubs? yes, so much that I doubt that removing score board would even affect it. ture you might lose SOME TEAM PLAY, but in return you have the large number of people who will keep comming back to get better.
When some one new comes to ns, they wana get better. There is currently no way for them to measure them selves, they cant say 'omg i went 20-1 in a pub', instead they have no goal except helping their radom-pub-peers out, no way for personal achivement. True that their skill COULD SOMEDAY become high enough to join a clan, but that is probably not going to happen for a while, in the meantime they will probably get bored of ns and stop playing. I think less starting-out-players would have the motovation to form clans if there is no scoreboard.
True that we are tring to premote team play, but do you want people to have fun? seeing your kills and the other guy's kills and trying to beat him is fun, trying to get to the top, to be the best is fun and thats why alot of people play cs I think, it is the essense of competition, even with your self, that will help draw in hardcore players that will eventualy improve them selfs into clans which will take ns to the highest levels of competition (which can only be a good thing)
Thankfuly I am allready skilled at ns and so I can play in tourney mode where my kills are visible, I can improve and activley measure my progress. But if I was not I would at least like to know how many kills I have (and I did, everytime I play I find my self doing "status" in counsle). This might be a little exagerated for a starting out player, but remember most ns players are from other hl mods, cs, tfc, dod and likely have at least attempted to compete, the point is, stuff like this is going on in the back of people's minds.
I know people have said it discourages team play and premotes personal skill, but seriously folks who would play cs (publicly) if you couldent see your kills? no one! I have been playing cs seince beta 5.4 and I thought it was getting worse and worse, but they never took out score, that would have made me quit instantly (as a pubber). I use cs as an example but most hl mods have score boards that reflect your kills and score as a team (this is for a reason). Do people still work as a team in pubs? yes, so much that I doubt that removing score board would even affect it. ture you might lose SOME TEAM PLAY, but in return you have the large number of people who will keep comming back to get better.
When some one new comes to ns, they wana get better. There is currently no way for them to measure them selves, they cant say 'omg i went 20-1 in a pub', instead they have no goal except helping their radom-pub-peers out, no way for personal achivement. True that their skill COULD SOMEDAY become high enough to join a clan, but that is probably not going to happen for a while, in the meantime they will probably get bored of ns and stop playing. I think less starting-out-players would have the motovation to form clans if there is no scoreboard.
True that we are tring to premote team play, but do you want people to have fun? seeing your kills and the other guy's kills and trying to beat him is fun, trying to get to the top, to be the best is fun and thats why alot of people play cs I think, it is the essense of competition, even with your self, that will help draw in hardcore players that will eventualy improve them selfs into clans which will take ns to the highest levels of competition (which can only be a good thing)
Thankfuly I am allready skilled at ns and so I can play in tourney mode where my kills are visible, I can improve and activley measure my progress. But if I was not I would at least like to know how many kills I have (and I did, everytime I play I find my self doing "status" in counsle). This might be a little exagerated for a starting out player, but remember most ns players are from other hl mods, cs, tfc, dod and likely have at least attempted to compete, the point is, stuff like this is going on in the back of people's minds.
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Comments
Also to what you just said hambone about dropping weapons and other sorts of stuff to other players, the times i go and be a commander, i don't even look at the score board (when we played 1.04), i just look at who was getting the most kills, and remember who they are, and once i had the money i'd tell him to get to base, and drop it to him. But for people with short term memory, i suppose the score board would come in handy :/
Scoreboards do add a new level of fun to the game
[edit]A short summary of my personal opinion: Natural Selection is in no way comparable to a deathmatch styled game. Using the scoring scheme of such one is thus unproductive at best and misleading at worst. If there was a scoreboard, it would have to take all important factors - from personal shooting skill (which is not measured precisely by frags, either) to teamwork and coordination - into account. Until such a method is found, no scoreboard is the preferrable solution.[/edit]
"He's (referring to Lux) stating that scoreboard does not effect teamplay negatively. I will not rant, flame, or assume. Just state my personal experience.
As aliens, my favorite side, they currently have a scoreboard in 1.04. Normally, as we are short a NS server for our clan at the time, I'll be pubbing around, and as the game is progressing I usually stay on top of the team with a score ratio of 2:1 or 3:1. Even when I'm playing in clan matches, I'm usually on top with a 1:1 score. I hesitate to throw myself at a TF or a phase to stop marine progression, merely on the point of my score. I'm a seasoned "halloween" clan player, and time after time, I'll stop stutter or hold up something just because of my freaking score.
I'm all for removing K-D scores, why not replace it with something useful? It's not a DM type game, so deaths don't matter. And if deaths don't matter, neither do kills.
So, if you can make heads or tails of that post, that's my stance. Remove kills and deaths from the scoreboard. "
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i dunno how it would work, but i quite like the way ET does it and i reckon that system could be adapted nicely
theres biggers issues than scoreboards
In the end I say:
Make it an "option" for server-owners.
If you want a teamplay friendly pub, turn scoreboard off
If you want the scoreboard, leave it on
This may be a dumb idea if you can already do it, but my opinion is to just leave it up to the servers
Cheers
This is rapidly becoming the favorite solution to controversial issues, it seems...
This is rapidly becoming the favorite solution to controversial issues, it seems... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's because it's the most convienent way of making a compromise.
I can't honestly say I care either way. As Stryker said, there's more important things to worry about. "status" is enough for me if I really want to know.
And as a server side option, like Nem said, a lot of stuff could be server side. But setting up a server would take an hour then, and it would create more a rift in servers "this server sucks, it doesnt have scores", which isnt good for a community IMO.
Either way i dont really care, i play NS for my team and for fun. Not my K:D
1) If you are looking at the kills/death meter to find clanmates, then you are missing out on other important factors, like the guy who throws himself at a marine outpost 5-6 times and takes it down, or the guy who has chomped 3 enemy RT's.. and as other people have mentioned it's the little things that matter way more than the number of kills you have..
2) More teamwork doesn't necessarily mean more kills.. ESPECIALLY for you as an individual... 3 marines open fire, all 3 don't get the kills.. only one does.. Yes, you live longer and the chance for you to gain more kills since you stay alive longer but again you may not get ANY of the kills.. and then you wouldn't get invited to the really "elite" clans because you don't have the kill totals...
3) To decide who to give weapons to, as comm.. You see the entire board and know which groups of players have done the work and who deserve the weapons... I've guarded base for tonnes of teams and the fact that I did helped my team win.. The comms always offer me first weapons (I'm there and my job has been boring), and I always refuse.. Why?? Because the marines in the field have seen the danger and faced the enemy... I've killed 3 skulks in a pretty controlled environment (I have a solid wall at my back)
4) Scoreboards promote ramboing.. The "How can I be good if I don't have the highest number of kills" mentality is common especially for new players... How can you judge if you did good?? Did your team win?? If not, then it doesn't matter how good you were.. Your team didn't win..
Do you think any baseball player cares they went 4 for 4 if their team loses game 7 of the world series by 6 runs?? Of course not.. They only care that their team LOST...
Anyway time doesn't allow for more typing now.. Must get work done... GAH!!!!
my 2 cents
I know I wouldn't enjoy NS public as much if there wasn't an aspect of personal competition in it in the form of scores. If a person isn't clever enough to understand that scores are not a good measure of one's skill, he won't understand what is, even without the scores visible. Personally, I tend to view scores as a fun byproduct of each match. In addition to myself knowing how the match played out and how I did in terms of being useful to my team, I can check out how I did in terms of pure fighting skill, which is, whether you like it or not, a very large part of NS. Being the meanest fighter of the match is satisfying and like Lux pointed out, one of the things that keeps new players coming back and getting better. If they are clever, they will focus their attention on the things that really matter as they learn the game better, but until then, the only thing they can immediately grasp is the scoreboard.
I don't think NS is overly newbie friendly as it is. No visible scores is one thing that doesn't really help that particular matter. Scores are something people have come to expect from a FPS and even if the game is a FPS/RTS hybrid, they will first be puzzled of why there are no scores.
If NS is too complex for a simple kills/deaths scoreboard then make a more complex one.
Seriously - there is a reason the scoreboard is a mainstay of virtually all other online shoot em ups.
Besides, Nem has a really good point. There are too many different factors in NS to rank players solely on their kill/death ratio.
There is no weaker argument than 'Everyone else does it, too!'.
And as a server side option, like Nem said, a lot of stuff could be server side. But setting up a server would take an hour then, and it would create more a rift in servers "this server sucks, it doesnt have scores", which isnt good for a community IMO. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh he might have been greatly useful, actually. He gave you 6-18 res and if you got the hive locked with the rest of your marines, then he provided you the possibility to build extra 1-3 sentry towers. Moreover, he distracted the alien team so that the rest could build safely and he brought 6 aliens into the spawn que which is a great advantage.
With the addition of res-for-kills gameplay has been significantly changed, teamplay wise. I don't see any problem with the introduction of a scoreboard again, I doubt there will be any more rambos than there are now already.
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Sorry to say but I dont think most clans starting out are looking for the guy who throws himself at the marine outpost, they want someone who can kick some a**.
I still believe that the scoreboard would work out to better teamwork. And people should realize that if a rambo is actually good then he does contribute quite a bit to the team. A marine who's 8-1 has earned your team 24 res and only given the opponents 3, not to mention hes probably taken a good position for your team.
its important 4 me 2 know , which people are dead ,
so i know where the enemys are or if any marines are spawning back ....
How could you even use CS as a comparason, if you for a second think that the game play in NS and the gameplay in CS is even close to similar, I will be floored! <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I know that you were just quoting CS to show that the SBs play a purpose in the game play.
If we had any kind of score board in NS, I think it should be Team based, and not player based. If the team kills a combined 89 Kharaa but dies 36 times combined, the Average should be the score, what ever team has the best average is the team that is playing better. It would have nothing at all to do with who wins the map, just show what team has the more skilled players as per kills to Deaths.
This game is too team based to worry about whos playing well, if you need to know whos playing well, just watch the upper right coner of your screen if you keep seeing 1 persons name as the killer, chances are, hes got skills!
I am happy they are taking away the score board, I don't think its needed and it only adds a CS feel to the game. CS is (IMO) the biggest POS ever to be released. There are games that have all the stuff CS has and non of the bad stuff! The Score Board in CS is the roote of the games lameness. Everyone trying to get the best score, trying to be the best killer, the only team work in CS is the fact that there are two teams... thats it!
NS is all about team work, even the kharaa need to work in teams to win, no single Kharaa can win the game for his team, no single Marine can win for his team. In CS you can see that one skilled (most likely cheating) player rack up 9 kills in 1 round and focus on getting the kills and not the misson objectives!
NS doesn't need a Score Board and I for one am glad its gone in 2.0! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->