Erm... Did the K/D get removed for tourney mode while I wasn't looking?
If not, please stop the "good rambos" argument. Chances for a productive rambo in a pubplay environment are slimmer than the survival chances of a person with integrity in D.C.
I think that Ns should have a score board, and that the score board should keep track of three things.
1. Players killed
2. Structures killed
3. Total Death
Player kills and structure kills should not be recorded in the same heading. In NS there are only two things you can kill structures, and players. Putting any thing more on the score board would just be confusing and less useful. I think that taking out the kill death score board was a bad idea yes it many not be fully representative, but any thing is better then nothing. I would much rather see the score board improved then removed.
SpoogeThunderbolt missile in your cheeriosJoin Date: 2002-01-25Member: 67Members
I personally have no use for the score board. The idea that someone with the top kill/death ratio is better than everyone else doesn't really apply to NS.
Does it have value? Absolutely. Let's look at a scenario:
1 skulk camps the MS and racks up kills as marines try to leave. In the process, the skulk only dies once or twice.
1 skulk single-handedly takes out a marine camp inside a hive after suffering a 2 hive lockdown.
Is it fair to ask which has more value?
The real question is, "Did the aliens win?"
I'd be interested in a scoreboard that measures a variety of criteria but the kill/death scoring is outdated and not applicable. One example I don't think I've seen suggested would be to record how many times a marine actually reaches a waypoint.
If nothing else, I'd support the "Server Optional" movement.
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Jul 10 2003, 09:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jul 10 2003, 09:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If not, please stop the "good rambos" argument. Chances for a productive rambo in a pubplay environment are slimmer than the survival chances of a person with integrity in D.C. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> heh nice argument
Anyway, as I stated before, chances are also low that a scoreboard would consequently have lead to more rambos.
<!--QuoteBegin--eggmac+Jul 10 2003, 07:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eggmac @ Jul 10 2003, 07:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Anyway, as I stated before, chances are also low that a scoreboard would consequently have lead to more rambos. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Even if we assumed this - and personally, I feel that scoreboards, while not creating rambos, give them a kind of justification that makes dealing with them even more difficult - it'd still not be an argument for the use of a largely misleading scoring system, as the current one is, if not in clanplay (which I can't judge), definetely in pubplay.
HAMBoneProbably the best CommanderJoin Date: 2003-04-02Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Jul 10 2003, 02:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jul 10 2003, 02:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Erm... Did the K/D get removed for tourney mode while I wasn't looking?
If not, please stop the "good rambos" argument. Chances for a productive rambo in a pubplay environment are slimmer than the survival chances of a person with integrity in D.C. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> K/D hasnt been in tourney mode since the first version of 1.1 was released to us, wether or not its still planned I do not know
As for the "good rambos" argument, I think its important. Without a scoreboard do you think there'll be less rambos? If anything I'd think there'd be more because they'll no longer be embarrassed with a bad kill-death ratio, they'll be going on most kills from status and they'll be more than happy to run around dying. If there is a scoreboard, however, the bad rambos will quickly see that ramboing doesnt get them anywhere and they may actually try to stick with some people so they can maintain a good ratio. And the good rambos will add to the team too.
In 1.04, marines have no scoreboard, does that mean they work as a team and there are no rambos? If not, why would this change? In my pub experience with 1.04 its been more that marines have tons of rambos because they have free liscence to die, and the aliens seem to exhibit much better teamwork.
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Zunni+Jul 10 2003, 01:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zunni @ Jul 10 2003, 01:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1) If you are looking at the kills/death meter to find clanmates, then you are missing out on other important factors, like the guy who throws himself at a marine outpost 5-6 times and takes it down, or the guy who has chomped 3 enemy RT's.. and as other people have mentioned it's the little things that matter way more than the number of kills you have..
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry to say but I dont think most clans starting out are looking for the guy who throws himself at the marine outpost, they want someone who can kick some a**.
I still believe that the scoreboard would work out to better teamwork. And people should realize that if a rambo is actually good then he does contribute quite a bit to the team. A marine who's 8-1 has earned your team 24 res and only given the opponents 3, not to mention hes probably taken a good position for your team.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We can agree to disagree..
Most clans starting out should be more interested in people who can follow orders I would think...
But that's not my lifestyle (I have a 1 year old daughter and therefore my game playing time is limited) so I'll take your word for it..
The discussion of "scoreboard" is somewhat misleading as most people seem to agree that kill/death ratio isn't a reliable measure of one's skill, therefore it can't be the score. The team that scores more goals in football is more "skilled" and therefore comparing scored goals can be called score, but in NS it's not kills and deaths that determine who wins. So instead of discussing whether players should see their score, we should discuss whether players should see their kill/death ratio. It's a matter of terms, but with inaccurate term used, the discussion can't be accurate. In this particular case, defending the scoreboard means defending the stupid notion of kills/deaths being the score.
So, the point behind this ramble is: I just thought of a very small, but in my opinion a defining change: <b>don't sort the player list by kills.</b> Sort it by alphabet or time played, or something. That way the kills/deaths lose their meaning as a way of getting to the top of the list, which has an in-built notion of "man of the match" for most people. It would be an intuitive way of making it clear that NS isn't a game where kills/deaths define your skill, but that since they are a big part of it, you and everyone else get to see them.
<!--QuoteBegin--HAMBONE+Jul 10 2003, 07:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (HAMBONE @ Jul 10 2003, 07:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As for the "good rambos" argument, I think its important. Without a scoreboard do you think there'll be less rambos? If anything I'd think there'd be more because they'll no longer be embarrassed with a bad kill-death ratio, they'll be going on most kills from status and they'll be more than happy to run around dying. If there is a scoreboard, however, the bad rambos will quickly see that ramboing doesnt get them anywhere and they may actually try to stick with some people so they can maintain a good ratio. And the good rambos will add to the team too.
In 1.04, marines have no scoreboard, does that mean they work as a team and there are no rambos? If not, why would this change? In my pub experience with 1.04 its been more that marines have tons of rambos because they have free liscence to die, and the aliens seem to exhibit much better teamwork. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> First, I'd like to point out that at no time of this thread, I advocated the removal of scoreboard for ramboprevention.
Second, I have to disagree with the idea that no scoreboard means that players will be ramboing based on their status: 'Rambos' in the sense of players recklessly playing for a big amount of kills without of consideration of the teams needs is largely due to the feeling of 'recognition' they can obtain by being on the ploe position. Again, this might be different in clanplay, I'm only talking about unproductive pubbers here. Removing the global display of the kills does thus deprive those players from their source of affirmation, which makes their playing style pointless. It may be possible that some people are willing to take bigger risks due to the removal of the 'stigmata' of high killcounts; seeing that a lot of teamplay-related objectives are pretty risky (take the guard of a lone resource tower until it can be fortified), I can however not see how this would be solely negative.
Aside from this complex, my initial claim stays. The K/D styled scoring is in no way representative of the true 'skill' of a player. It is only a (rough) indicator of one of the aspects of good playing. It's thus useless, or even counter-productive to NS.
I think team play is a key factor (more so in 2.0), but kills are a bigger factor. anyone can be a team player, fewer are be highly skilled. You can provide all the scenarios you like but the 90% of skill in NS is in killing enemys. Having a score board would give people a rough estimate of how they are doing, and in most cases the people with the most kills are the most skilled in killing. It is hard to decide how MUCH kills matter tho, people should decide them selves, but when you hide the score board intentionaly that dosent let people decide how valuable it is, because they cant see it.
I do not think that a rough indicator is counter-productive to ns. Res is shown with total kills on the score board, is that 100% accurate as to who will win the game? No, but it gives a general indication, adding k/d to the score board would not harm the game anymore then the current res + kills score.
I think it would be great to have a scoreboard is NS - but one more usefull then just "kills and deaths" For marines, why not show how many orders the person follow, how many buildings the person built, show if he is wearing HA/JP, that kind of thing. For aliens, like the slulk,fade,onos there really isnt much you can show except for kills and deaths - however, for the gorge why not have number of buildings complete, thier res count *and the res count of everyone on the team for that matter*, and maybe even the gorges location.
<!--QuoteBegin--Silver Fox+Jul 10 2003, 07:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Silver Fox @ Jul 10 2003, 07:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The only thing I use the "scoreboard" for is to see who is alive or dead and the status of my team mates (Heavy armor, Onos, Commander - what ever)
Thats all that is needed in NS. K:D does nothing but promote rambo tactics and "team mates" accusing others of "stealing their kills".
I'm glad its gone.
On that note, if you absolutly have to know how well your doing, the scoreboard still lists you in order from top to bottom based on your K:D.
So .. all you people that dont give a damn about your team mates ... you can still be listed on the top! OMGZ!!1 OG OG OGOG OGOG!!1one. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh please. I enjoy being on top of the score board, but I still care greatly about how my team is doing. Just because somebody likes being "the best in the server" (notice the quotes) doesn't mean that they don't care about teamwork/their team. I honestly hate that attitude. K:D recognizes an important skill in ns. Without killing you cannot win the match/round. Ever. It's not the only thing, but it happens to be a skill.
<!--QuoteBegin--Lux+Jul 10 2003, 07:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lux @ Jul 10 2003, 07:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think team play is a key factor (more so in 2.0), but kills are a bigger factor. anyone can be a team player, fewer are be highly skilled. You can provide all the scenarios you like but the 90% of skill in NS is in killing enemys. Having a score board would give people a rough estimate of how they are doing, and in most cases the people with the most kills are the most skilled in killing. It is hard to decide how MUCH kills matter tho, people should decide them selves, but when you hide the score board intentionaly that dosent let people decide how valuable it is, because they cant see it.
I do not think that a rough indicator is counter-productive to ns. Res is shown with total kills on the score board, is that 100% accurate as to who will win the game? No, but it gives a general indication, adding k/d to the score board would not harm the game anymore then the current res + kills score. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe I should clarify 'rough' a bit: Two marines (two skulks) are hunting a skulk (a marine). The first one does two good bursts (a parasite and the first bite), lowering the skulks (marines) health instantly to a tenth of its starting health. The other does the final attack, getting the kill. K/D hasn't been accurate since the introduction of team DM. It gets completely out of whack in more team oriented games, such as NS, BF1942, or even CS.
I fully disagree with the "rambo's should never be rewarded with a good score" argument. If I go comm and see a good player or two that I know I will usually <i>ask</i> them to rambo for me to keep the aliens off the other marines backs who are then free to go round capping res or securing hives. Now that res-for-kills has been introduced I will definitely be sending those rambo's out in 2.0, they are an essetial part of my strategy, buying me time and keeping alien expansion down!
I also highly doubt that those players who are not naturally inclined to rambo are going to start just because it will make their score look good. This may be very naive of me but I get the feeling (from playing regularly) that NS players are in general more inclined to team-play than CS players and only too willing to do what I ask when I am commanding. I think it would be a great way to reward players to see their score shoot up when they murder a skulk rush, knowing that they've just saved their comm a whole lot of hastle.
I am also very much against the addition of score for killing strucutures. It just plain don't seem right to me, if I kill a res tower I don't feel like I have done anything very skillful, just stood still for 20 seconds and held down my attack button. However, if a couple of marines come to stop me chewing that res node or I run into a couple of marines on their way to secure a hive and kill them both I feel I deserve some sort of reward and would be shocked if someone else's score had gone up as much as mine for killing a few turrets with bilebomb or chewing a couple of rt's. Also, killing OC's as marine is a cakewalk compared to taking on a group of skulks (at least in 1.04, though the OC's have been beefed up now). My point is that a scoreboard is there mainly to reflect skill and despite the fact that killing structures is vital to your teams winning in NS, it doesn't require anywhere near as much skill as taking down enemy players, I'm sure you're all gonna shout at me fo that but it's just how I think a scoreboard should be.
I also agree that scoreboards add to the overall fun of game, putting in a bit of competition shouldnt really be a bad thing and I don't think it would punish newbies but rather encourage them to improve and respect the better players. I've noticed that almost all of the anti-scoreboard posts have been based around unfair reflection of NS gameplay ability, I disagree, I feel that kills are an essential part of the game and now that vanilla skulk v vanilla marine has been evened out some I feel that the scoreboard can't do any harm (in 1.04 it would just be depressing for skulks in the early game).
Just my thoughts, hope you can see where I'm coming from <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Jul 10 2003, 12:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jul 10 2003, 12:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->K/D hasn't been accurate since the introduction of team DM. It gets completely out of whack in more team oriented games, such as NS, BF1942, or even CS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The same exact argument could be made about the res/kill score. just to claify people in 2.0 there is a score at the top which is a total of your team's kills and your res. How nemisis is this any more accurate then a k/d ratio? it could be considered JUST as counter-productive as k/d based on the "its not 100% accurate so it should not be in the game" attatuide.
Regardless of score board people will rambo for self improvement.
I reiterate my earlier argument on another thread that skulks are meat puppets and minesweepers. Therefor I feel no embarassment at going 3-14 with skulk if during that time I chewed resources, parasited all locations of marines, left large holes in their defenses, relayed locations of moving squads and their outfitting, and generally contributed to the creating of more hives and the win of the team.
As a marine, I dont even think about K:D other than am I still alive and obeying the commander's wishes? If I guard a place that doesnt see action very often, but is important to the team, does that make me less of a player? Those who say yes are usually the ones that freak out when the game starts to take a turn for the worse and become more trouble for the comm/Kharaa than the person with the not so |337 score.
I'm glad the SB is gone, then people will just look at your contributions and not your deaths.
<!--QuoteBegin--Lux+Jul 10 2003, 07:49 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lux @ Jul 10 2003, 07:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Jul 10 2003, 12:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jul 10 2003, 12:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->K/D hasn't been accurate since the introduction of team DM. It gets completely out of whack in more team oriented games, such as NS, BF1942, or even CS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The same exact argument could be made about the res/kill score. just to claify people in 2.0 there is a score at the top which is a total of your team's kills and your res. How nemisis is this any more accurate then a k/d ratio? it could be considered JUST as counter-productive as k/d based on the "its not 100% accurate so it should not be in the game" attatuide.
Regardless of score board people will rambo for self improvement. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Erm... Wha?
That's, as you mentioned yourself, a <i>total</i> score, not an individual one. Thus, issues like fragstealing etc. don't factor in. It's like comparing the readout of a bankaccount to the ratings of a riskfond in the stock exchanges.
[edit]Also, I should mention that I'm ambivalent to this total score. I do honestly not quite see what this argument is aiming at.[/edit]
Is the killstealing really an issue somewhere or is it just an easy argument for anti-K/D faction? It's been a while since I played actively, but I can't remember seeing anyone complaining about killstealing even once in my history of NS.
Was the suggestion of not sorting players by their kills so bad/useless that it doesn't raise any comments - not for or against?
<!--QuoteBegin---Driftwood-+Jul 10 2003, 08:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-Driftwood- @ Jul 10 2003, 08:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Is the killstealing really an issue somewhere or is it just an easy argument for anti-K/D faction? It's been a while since I played actively, but I can't remember seeing anyone complaining about killstealing even once in my history of NS. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It doesn't provocate complaints, but it happens all the time: Every grouped attack on an Onos means that someones name appears on the 'kill' tag while others participated a great deal in destroying it, as well. Every attack on a marine base sees two Fades lobbing Acid Rockets at the same enemy. I was making the point that such behaviour, which is flat-out necessary in NS, clouds the informative values of a simple K/D system.
There was one held a while back. The result was a vote in favor of the removal. And as back then, everyone interested will show you fifteen seperate reasons why such a poll isn't representative.[/edit]
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Jul 10 2003, 11:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jul 10 2003, 11:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I was making the point that such behaviour, which is flat-out necessary in NS, clouds the informative values of a simple K/D system. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> About a month back, I made a suggestion of a scoring system based on giving mutual points that are awarded to all players inside certain range, i.e. all the marines near the guy who lands the final bullet on the Onos would also get a point.
However, that's another subject. Naturally, K/D can't be accurate or informative, but that's my very point. I've never felt bad about only one player getting kill for a group effort. It can be anyone but this time it wasn't me. I'd assume that anyone with any kind of understanding of the game can regard the K/D ratio as a simple fun, not something that gives you accurate measure of one's score. To encourage this, making the list sort out by something other than the amount of kills should be considered.
Scores just arent needed in a game with teamwork. Period. To all the arguments about clans and making you feel good : No one is going to rush out to hurt the phase just a little if it will give them a death. No one will try to save something if it seems like there's no chance. And above all else, they wont bother killing rts ( like they already do) and useless prolonging of games for kills will be continued.
<!--QuoteBegin--MrMojo+Jul 10 2003, 09:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrMojo @ Jul 10 2003, 09:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Scores just arent needed in a game with teamwork. Period. To all the arguments about clans and making you feel good : No one is going to rush out to hurt the phase just a little if it will give them a death. No one will try to save something if it seems like there's no chance. And above all else, they wont bother killing rts ( like they already do) and useless prolonging of games for kills will be continued. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This is another "everyone is lame and they will only want kills so it will be boring" post. Silly as it may seem I really think the NS community will accept the scoreboard as just a fun addition and a bit of friendly competition that isnt necessarily proportioanl to skill and anyone with any sense will realise that a lot of deaths doesnt necessarily mean that person is getting owned, merely attacking well defended enemy positions or trying to defend heavily attacked friendly positions. All of the anti-scoreboard posts in this thread are, it feels to me, rather insulting to the average NS player.
Of course K/D ratio isn't representative at all, yet it's just a nice a ddition. I just don't see any point in <i>not</i> showing them. As you stated correctly, someone with 10/25 isn't neccessarily a bad player. It's just nice to see how many players you killed and how many times you died.
Please don't pull out that stereotype of DM players that only play for kills and don't bother about the team. Those players would have never started playing NS in the first place. It's the combination of FPS and RTS that is essential for NS which means that FPS plays a role as well. And that means killing opponents is of importance (of course). So it would be just nice to see how many enemies someone has killed which would show his FPS skill. Just as an easy win shows the RTS skill of a good commander (*cough* Jojo, MonsE *cough*).
As I see it, there is no real argument against the scoreboard. It will in no way promote people to play even worse! As I said alrerady, RfK forces players to change their gamestyle, including uselessly running away and getting killed. On the other hand, many kills give the team a great advanatge and that should be seen on the scoreboard as well.
EDIT: I wholeheartedly agree to what Young Trotsky said
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
i too think that the score board should go in. I like it, but i would NEVER play for a good score.. because every normal player knows that when he plays egoistic the team will lose.. he will lose.. its just a usefull indication of skill, nothing more
The score board, in it's current incarnation is only useful for "counting coup" it does not reflect NS skills or one's impact on a game of NS. Therefore, I support it's removal until such a time as it can reflect an individuals impact appropriately.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The reason NS was created so that a different experience is created from CS! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You think a mere scoreboard makes the experience like CS? Have you actually played NS at all? It's pretty good, nothing like CS. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The score board, in it's current incarnation is only useful for "counting coup" it does not reflect NS skills or one's impact on a game of NS. Therefore, I support it's removal until such a time as it can reflect an individuals impact appropriately.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you read the other posts in this topic? We are all in agreement that the scoreboard does not refelct NS skill directly but is merely a fun addition and if treated maturely (which we all hope it would be) cannot do any harm to the game.
Comments
If not, please stop the "good rambos" argument. Chances for a productive rambo in a pubplay environment are slimmer than the survival chances of a person with integrity in D.C.
1. Players killed
2. Structures killed
3. Total Death
Player kills and structure kills should not be recorded in the same heading. In NS there are only two things you can kill structures, and players. Putting any thing more on the score board would just be confusing and less useful. I think that taking out the kill death score board was a bad idea yes it many not be fully representative, but any thing is better then nothing. I would much rather see the score board improved then removed.
Does it have value? Absolutely. Let's look at a scenario:
1 skulk camps the MS and racks up kills as marines try to leave. In the process, the skulk only dies once or twice.
1 skulk single-handedly takes out a marine camp inside a hive after suffering a 2 hive lockdown.
Is it fair to ask which has more value?
The real question is, "Did the aliens win?"
I'd be interested in a scoreboard that measures a variety of criteria but the kill/death scoring is outdated and not applicable. One example I don't think I've seen suggested would be to record how many times a marine actually reaches a waypoint.
If nothing else, I'd support the "Server Optional" movement.
If not, please stop the "good rambos" argument. Chances for a productive rambo in a pubplay environment are slimmer than the survival chances of a person with integrity in D.C. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
heh nice argument
Anyway, as I stated before, chances are also low that a scoreboard would consequently have lead to more rambos.
Even if we assumed this - and personally, I feel that scoreboards, while not creating rambos, give them a kind of justification that makes dealing with them even more difficult - it'd still not be an argument for the use of a largely misleading scoring system, as the current one is, if not in clanplay (which I can't judge), definetely in pubplay.
If not, please stop the "good rambos" argument. Chances for a productive rambo in a pubplay environment are slimmer than the survival chances of a person with integrity in D.C. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
K/D hasnt been in tourney mode since the first version of 1.1 was released to us, wether or not its still planned I do not know
As for the "good rambos" argument, I think its important. Without a scoreboard do you think there'll be less rambos? If anything I'd think there'd be more because they'll no longer be embarrassed with a bad kill-death ratio, they'll be going on most kills from status and they'll be more than happy to run around dying. If there is a scoreboard, however, the bad rambos will quickly see that ramboing doesnt get them anywhere and they may actually try to stick with some people so they can maintain a good ratio. And the good rambos will add to the team too.
In 1.04, marines have no scoreboard, does that mean they work as a team and there are no rambos? If not, why would this change? In my pub experience with 1.04 its been more that marines have tons of rambos because they have free liscence to die, and the aliens seem to exhibit much better teamwork.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry to say but I dont think most clans starting out are looking for the guy who throws himself at the marine outpost, they want someone who can kick some a**.
I still believe that the scoreboard would work out to better teamwork. And people should realize that if a rambo is actually good then he does contribute quite a bit to the team. A marine who's 8-1 has earned your team 24 res and only given the opponents 3, not to mention hes probably taken a good position for your team.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We can agree to disagree..
Most clans starting out should be more interested in people who can follow orders I would think...
But that's not my lifestyle (I have a 1 year old daughter and therefore my game playing time is limited) so I'll take your word for it..
So, the point behind this ramble is: I just thought of a very small, but in my opinion a defining change: <b>don't sort the player list by kills.</b> Sort it by alphabet or time played, or something. That way the kills/deaths lose their meaning as a way of getting to the top of the list, which has an in-built notion of "man of the match" for most people. It would be an intuitive way of making it clear that NS isn't a game where kills/deaths define your skill, but that since they are a big part of it, you and everyone else get to see them.
In 1.04, marines have no scoreboard, does that mean they work as a team and there are no rambos? If not, why would this change? In my pub experience with 1.04 its been more that marines have tons of rambos because they have free liscence to die, and the aliens seem to exhibit much better teamwork. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First, I'd like to point out that at no time of this thread, I advocated the removal of scoreboard for ramboprevention.
Second, I have to disagree with the idea that no scoreboard means that players will be ramboing based on their status: 'Rambos' in the sense of players recklessly playing for a big amount of kills without of consideration of the teams needs is largely due to the feeling of 'recognition' they can obtain by being on the ploe position. Again, this might be different in clanplay, I'm only talking about unproductive pubbers here. Removing the global display of the kills does thus deprive those players from their source of affirmation, which makes their playing style pointless.
It may be possible that some people are willing to take bigger risks due to the removal of the 'stigmata' of high killcounts; seeing that a lot of teamplay-related objectives are pretty risky (take the guard of a lone resource tower until it can be fortified), I can however not see how this would be solely negative.
Aside from this complex, my initial claim stays. The K/D styled scoring is in no way representative of the true 'skill' of a player. It is only a (rough) indicator of one of the aspects of good playing. It's thus useless, or even counter-productive to NS.
I do not think that a rough indicator is counter-productive to ns. Res is shown with total kills on the score board, is that 100% accurate as to who will win the game? No, but it gives a general indication, adding k/d to the score board would not harm the game anymore then the current res + kills score.
Thats all that is needed in NS. K:D does nothing but promote rambo tactics and "team mates" accusing others of "stealing their kills".
I'm glad its gone.
On that note, if you absolutly have to know how well your doing, the scoreboard still lists you in order from top to bottom based on your K:D.
So .. all you people that dont give a damn about your team mates ... you can still be listed on the top! OMGZ!!1 OG OG OGOG OGOG!!1one.
Thats all that is needed in NS. K:D does nothing but promote rambo tactics and "team mates" accusing others of "stealing their kills".
I'm glad its gone.
On that note, if you absolutly have to know how well your doing, the scoreboard still lists you in order from top to bottom based on your K:D.
So .. all you people that dont give a damn about your team mates ... you can still be listed on the top! OMGZ!!1 OG OG OGOG OGOG!!1one. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh please. I enjoy being on top of the score board, but I still care greatly about how my team is doing. Just because somebody likes being "the best in the server" (notice the quotes) doesn't mean that they don't care about teamwork/their team. I honestly hate that attitude. K:D recognizes an important skill in ns. Without killing you cannot win the match/round. Ever. It's not the only thing, but it happens to be a skill.
I do not think that a rough indicator is counter-productive to ns. Res is shown with total kills on the score board, is that 100% accurate as to who will win the game? No, but it gives a general indication, adding k/d to the score board would not harm the game anymore then the current res + kills score. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe I should clarify 'rough' a bit: Two marines (two skulks) are hunting a skulk (a marine). The first one does two good bursts (a parasite and the first bite), lowering the skulks (marines) health instantly to a tenth of its starting health. The other does the final attack, getting the kill.
K/D hasn't been accurate since the introduction of team DM. It gets completely out of whack in more team oriented games, such as NS, BF1942, or even CS.
I also highly doubt that those players who are not naturally inclined to rambo are going to start just because it will make their score look good. This may be very naive of me but I get the feeling (from playing regularly) that NS players are in general more inclined to team-play than CS players and only too willing to do what I ask when I am commanding. I think it would be a great way to reward players to see their score shoot up when they murder a skulk rush, knowing that they've just saved their comm a whole lot of hastle.
I am also very much against the addition of score for killing strucutures. It just plain don't seem right to me, if I kill a res tower I don't feel like I have done anything very skillful, just stood still for 20 seconds and held down my attack button. However, if a couple of marines come to stop me chewing that res node or I run into a couple of marines on their way to secure a hive and kill them both I feel I deserve some sort of reward and would be shocked if someone else's score had gone up as much as mine for killing a few turrets with bilebomb or chewing a couple of rt's. Also, killing OC's as marine is a cakewalk compared to taking on a group of skulks (at least in 1.04, though the OC's have been beefed up now). My point is that a scoreboard is there mainly to reflect skill and despite the fact that killing structures is vital to your teams winning in NS, it doesn't require anywhere near as much skill as taking down enemy players, I'm sure you're all gonna shout at me fo that but it's just how I think a scoreboard should be.
I also agree that scoreboards add to the overall fun of game, putting in a bit of competition shouldnt really
be a bad thing and I don't think it would punish newbies but rather encourage them to improve and respect the better players. I've noticed that almost all of the anti-scoreboard posts have been based around unfair reflection of NS gameplay ability, I disagree, I feel that kills are an essential part of the game and now that vanilla skulk v vanilla marine has been evened out some I feel that the scoreboard can't do any harm (in 1.04 it would just be depressing for skulks in the early game).
Just my thoughts, hope you can see where I'm coming from <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The same exact argument could be made about the res/kill score. just to claify people in 2.0 there is a score at the top which is a total of your team's kills and your res. How nemisis is this any more accurate then a k/d ratio? it could be considered JUST as counter-productive as k/d based on the "its not 100% accurate so it should not be in the game" attatuide.
Regardless of score board people will rambo for self improvement.
As a marine, I dont even think about K:D other than am I still alive and obeying the commander's wishes? If I guard a place that doesnt see action very often, but is important to the team, does that make me less of a player? Those who say yes are usually the ones that freak out when the game starts to take a turn for the worse and become more trouble for the comm/Kharaa than the person with the not so |337 score.
I'm glad the SB is gone, then people will just look at your contributions and not your deaths.
The same exact argument could be made about the res/kill score. just to claify people in 2.0 there is a score at the top which is a total of your team's kills and your res. How nemisis is this any more accurate then a k/d ratio? it could be considered JUST as counter-productive as k/d based on the "its not 100% accurate so it should not be in the game" attatuide.
Regardless of score board people will rambo for self improvement. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Erm... Wha?
That's, as you mentioned yourself, a <i>total</i> score, not an individual one. Thus, issues like fragstealing etc. don't factor in. It's like comparing the readout of a bankaccount to the ratings of a riskfond in the stock exchanges.
[edit]Also, I should mention that I'm ambivalent to this total score. I do honestly not quite see what this argument is aiming at.[/edit]
Was the suggestion of not sorting players by their kills so bad/useless that it doesn't raise any comments - not for or against?
keep scoreboard yes/no
It doesn't provocate complaints, but it happens all the time: Every grouped attack on an Onos means that someones name appears on the 'kill' tag while others participated a great deal in destroying it, as well. Every attack on a marine base sees two Fades lobbing Acid Rockets at the same enemy.
I was making the point that such behaviour, which is flat-out necessary in NS, clouds the informative values of a simple K/D system.
[edit]
<!--QuoteBegin--Birdy+Jul 10 2003, 08:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Birdy @ Jul 10 2003, 08:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->what about a poll...
keep scoreboard yes/no <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There was one held a while back. The result was a vote in favor of the removal. And as back then, everyone interested will show you fifteen seperate reasons why such a poll isn't representative.[/edit]
*edit* geeze, that was badly worded *edit*
About a month back, I made a suggestion of a scoring system based on giving mutual points that are awarded to all players inside certain range, i.e. all the marines near the guy who lands the final bullet on the Onos would also get a point.
However, that's another subject. Naturally, K/D can't be accurate or informative, but that's my very point. I've never felt bad about only one player getting kill for a group effort. It can be anyone but this time it wasn't me. I'd assume that anyone with any kind of understanding of the game can regard the K/D ratio as a simple fun, not something that gives you accurate measure of one's score. To encourage this, making the list sort out by something other than the amount of kills should be considered.
This is another "everyone is lame and they will only want kills so it will be boring" post. Silly as it may seem I really think the NS community will accept the scoreboard as just a fun addition and a bit of friendly competition that isnt necessarily proportioanl to skill and anyone with any sense will realise that a lot of deaths doesnt necessarily mean that person is getting owned, merely attacking well defended enemy positions or trying to defend heavily attacked friendly positions. All of the anti-scoreboard posts in this thread are, it feels to me, rather insulting to the average NS player.
Please don't pull out that stereotype of DM players that only play for kills and don't bother about the team. Those players would have never started playing NS in the first place. It's the combination of FPS and RTS that is essential for NS which means that FPS plays a role as well. And that means killing opponents is of importance (of course). So it would be just nice to see how many enemies someone has killed which would show his FPS skill. Just as an easy win shows the RTS skill of a good commander (*cough* Jojo, MonsE *cough*).
As I see it, there is no real argument against the scoreboard. It will in no way promote people to play even worse! As I said alrerady, RfK forces players to change their gamestyle, including uselessly running away and getting killed. On the other hand, many kills give the team a great advanatge and that should be seen on the scoreboard as well.
EDIT: I wholeheartedly agree to what Young Trotsky said
The reason NS was created so that a different experience is created from CS!
You think a mere scoreboard makes the experience like CS? Have you actually played NS at all? It's pretty good, nothing like CS. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The score board, in it's current incarnation is only useful for "counting coup" it does not reflect NS skills or one's impact on a game of NS. Therefore, I support it's removal until such a time as it can reflect an individuals impact appropriately.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you read the other posts in this topic? We are all in agreement that the scoreboard does not refelct NS skill directly but is merely a fun addition and if treated maturely (which we all hope it would be) cannot do any harm to the game.