<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Try getting to the top of powersilo useing the current jetpacks, or getting up to that nice vent... its impossibly hard and hardly worth 15 resources. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um, have you been playing ns? its quite easy actually....
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Have you even been playing NS? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah but ive not used a shotgun much, just a couple of shells fired every now and again... i asked a question didnt i?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thats silly, he was simply showing his opinion to the new patch. Besides I see no references to quake style gameplay in his post. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point being that most of his complaints were based around features that have been improved to make them more reliant on teamwork.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--Mr.KNifey+Aug 6 2003, 06:37 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mr.KNifey @ Aug 6 2003, 06:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As far as I know, MT does not operate within the radius of the sensory chamber, making it far less useful for the amount of res it costs.
I don't really know, it's what I've seen....really big changelog <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> MT doesn't track any cloaked aliens. Usually this means the same thing as saying that MT doesn't work inside a sensory area, but not quite ...
MT negation (and SoF) is actually the major use for sensory chambers against smart commanders, as smart commanders usually manage to negate the cloaking-in-battle part.
i think the original poster should find another game to play.
anyone who can sit down and write a list of gripes should just move on to another game.
If you have preference with past version then play the past versions, however i find this 2.0 quite alot mroe fun. Clan and Pub games used to be determined by the skill of Rambo Marines with JPs / HMGs. Lerks cannot quite match the infinate flying ability these players had, was that fun to watch your hive get killed and theres nothing u could do about it? This version promotes more teamtate and less rambos. Its great imho.
<!--QuoteBegin--Mr.KNifey+Aug 6 2003, 10:13 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mr.KNifey @ Aug 6 2003, 10:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Aliens aren't much fun for me. I only have fun on aliens as a support player(gorge/lerk) Skulk isn't any fun for me. I'd much rather help the entire team than be a selfish ****bite.
Which is why I like marines more. Everything you do on marines helps the team. You kill stuff, your TEAM gets res. You build stuff, your TEAM benefits. I like teamplay more than rambo stuff.
....of course....The Specialists Beta 2.0 is SO MUCH FUN. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> thanks for mentioning the specialists <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> I tried beta 1.2 or something and didnt like it much but playing 2 now.. its awesome! especially love the dojo map <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Frikk+Aug 6 2003, 07:44 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Frikk @ Aug 6 2003, 07:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For those of you complaining about the SC being able to move cloaked
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>SCAN. IS IT THAT HARD</span> Just say, "COM, could I get a scan here?". Done. It's a hard counter. It works Every Single Time you do it. (Bonus point for just going buck-wild with the GL though. It's more frightening.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm. How easy it is!
You are in the middle of the long "empty" corridor. You hear nasty "tap-tap-tap" on the floor, approaching. You suggest actually opening a prompt and start typing THAT? Really? Did YOU try that? Did it work? Ok, suppose skulk will wait for you to finish typing, or wait until you pressed the button if u have shortcut. What is the chance that comm will hear you, if he's busy with some more important stuff? Suppose he did. What is the cahnce that he will spend res on scan? Hmm. Suppose he will. What time is needed for the scan sequence to be performed and uncloack stuff? For how long it will be uncloacked? "Please, comm, scan again, I seen the skulk in the end of the corri..."..
Hmm. I say it's not fair to cloack moving objects. And MT, observatory and scans are in no way to compensate that (see other posts about MT not working, etc.).
<!--QuoteBegin--White Kite Fauna+Aug 6 2003, 01:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (White Kite Fauna @ Aug 6 2003, 01:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Frikk+Aug 6 2003, 07:44 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Frikk @ Aug 6 2003, 07:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For those of you complaining about the SC being able to move cloaked
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>SCAN. IS IT THAT HARD</span> Just say, "COM, could I get a scan here?". Done. It's a hard counter. It works Every Single Time you do it. (Bonus point for just going buck-wild with the GL though. It's more frightening.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm. How easy it is!
You are in the middle of the long "empty" corridor. You hear nasty "tap-tap-tap" on the floor, approaching. You suggest actually opening a prompt and start typing THAT? Really? Did YOU try that? Did it work? Ok, suppose skulk will wait for you to finish typing, or wait until you pressed the button if u have shortcut. What is the chance that comm will hear you, if he's busy with some more important stuff? Suppose he did. What is the cahnce that he will spend res on scan? Hmm. Suppose he will. What time is needed for the scan sequence to be performed and uncloack stuff? For how long it will be uncloacked? "Please, comm, scan again, I seen the skulk in the end of the corri..."..
Hmm. I say it's not fair to cloack moving objects. And MT, observatory and scans are in no way to compensate that (see other posts about MT not working, etc.). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> A. You should be in a group, and one of you probibly has a mike. That guy should use it. B. Your com *hopefully* is watching you. He should be able to keep track of where the cloaking chambers are and should scan accordingly. C. Scanning is free, only cost is energy. D. When you get scanned as an alien, you uncloak extremely fast, if not instantly. E. If you really can't deal with any of the above, spray your lmg in the general direction of the sound. One hit is all it takes to uncloak the guy. If there are "typical hiding spots" fire into those. Your teammates should be able to mop up the decloaked aliens easily.
Really, the moving while cloaking effect has one of the few hard counters in NS. People just haven't figured out how to effectively do something about it. Once coms start using the counter it'll feel less strong. We know, we went through this exact thing in the playtest.
i find scan very annoying atm, cos i used to it being right there on the menu, when your watching a battle take place, the last thing you want to have to do is locate one of your obs, it takes a good 5 seconds to get the obs ready to use (a supposing your using medpacks too, thats 5 seconds before each scan), and that can be all it takes for aliens !
I agree it would be easier to scan if it was still on the menu, however the easiest thing would simply be to hold ctrl and press 5 with ur obs selected and then you can select it instantly in the heat of battle.
<!--QuoteBegin--chowder+Aug 6 2003, 04:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (chowder @ Aug 6 2003, 04:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Let me preface by stating that I'm speaking from a wealth of experience as I've played CS and NS since their infancy, when you could count the number of servers on 2 hands. I've witnessed the griping sessions that have accompanied each and every update. This is the first time I've felt compelled to chime in. I will not discuss balance of 2.0, mostly because it's secondary to my main focus: fun. I had fun playing both 1.0 and 1.04. I haven't found much fun at all playing 2.0. My favorite parts of 1.04 for were skulking for leap kills, offensive gorging for web trap/healspray/babblers, jetpack/shotgun attacking as marine, and finding creative ways to win as commander. Those things were challenging,. Now in 2.0: Gone is the fun of leap. The delay in fastswitch has greatly hindered the effectiveness of leap strikes or leap-biting. Gone is the fun of webbing. Webbing was an essential skill in 1.04 to protect first two hives. It's only a nice-thing-to-have in 2.0, and almost an afterthought. Gone is the fun of babblers. They were hilarious and humiliating. Enough said. Devour can't hold a candle to babblers. Gone is the fun of jetpacks. Flying is fun. Jumppacks are not. I'd rather only be able to fly with an lmg, than be able to jumppack with a hmg/gl. Gone is the challenge of using shotguns. It's child's play now. Gone is the fun of Nancy. Best map in 1.04. Gone is the significance of being gorge. It's more like jury duty now. Gone is the interdependency of aliens (common res pool). Now I feel like I can just take care of my own needs with kill res. Gone is the fun spam that is chuckle, taunt, meds. Gone is the helpful spamming calls for healspray. Instead, for marines, we now get global spam of waypoints and commander activity. Do I need to know that my commander has dropped 3 medpacks on the other side of the map? Chinese water torture, anyone? Here's a newsflash: building turret farms is not fun, nor is killing them. Why on earth would you encourage them. Hunting for fellow humans controlling marines/aliens is fun. To see how commanding has lost fun, look no further than the hassle of scanning. The only definite improvement I see in 2.0 is in the visuals. Sadly, visuals don't add to my definition of fun. Win or lose, I'd rather play a round that was unbalanced, fun, or short over one that was balanced, drawn out, or predictable. Communism is balanced, playing golf against Tiger Woods is not. Which is more fun? I'm truly unimpressed. It seems fun wasn't a priority. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> How about you play it some more, and find the new fun bits in it?
<!--QuoteBegin--Melatonin+Aug 6 2003, 10:04 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Melatonin @ Aug 6 2003, 10:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i find scan very annoying atm, cos i used to it being right there on the menu, when your watching a battle take place, the last thing you want to have to do is locate one of your obs, it takes a good 5 seconds to get the obs ready to use (a supposing your using medpacks too, thats 5 seconds before each scan), and that can be all it takes for aliens ! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Scan: press 5, press a, click. That did NOT take 5 seconds
Medpacks: press e, press s, click. That also didn't take 5 seconds.
Seriously, I tried comming 2.0 for the first time last night and I had no problem using the hotkeys and squads. They make everything MUCH easier to use and extremely fast.
Back to the main subject, If you had more fun in 1.04 than in 2.0 then we must have totally different concepts of fun. I dont consider straight teching to jps, then gunning down the hive so early in the game that the aliens have a 1% chance of surviving 'fun'. 1.04 the game came down to 'can you execute the jp rush?'. If so, you win, if not, you lose to fade acid spam. Whee.
<!--QuoteBegin--Cpl.Davis+Aug 6 2003, 07:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cpl.Davis @ Aug 6 2003, 07:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No strat is 100% winnable and situations that work fine at one time may do horrendous the next time. In the meantime.
Onos? = Get shot guns, even a standard no upgrade shot gun will bring down an onos.
Cloaked Skulks?= MT
Cloaked buildings? Scanner sweep/ Observatories. Notice how aliens build little SC with a fwe OCS and maybe a DC up around the map? Marines can do it too with an OBs and some turrets.
Webs in your way?= Weld them.
Heavy armour got you down?= Devour and Redemption.
Turret Farm in your way?= 1 bile bomb Gorge, One lerk with umbra. No bile bomb? One Onos bulldoser with umbra support.
For both sides You may have noticed how Sentry turrets and OCs now aquire targets A LOT faster then in earlier versions. They are also more accurate.
Electrifed Res node? Onos with regeneration. No onos? Get a gorge to heal spray a skulk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> GL keeping you back, Try being a fade with the new Blink and run up and hit him and run out
The only thing I can't see an effective counter for is the evil SG rush, give 5 ppl SGs and send them to a hive, drop meds on them and there isn't anything you can really do to stop them. Onos will go down in 3 shots, 4 to 5 with level 3 carapace Hive will go down in less then 5 seconds (really could use the random Umbra protection)
The only counter I have seen to this is the Sensory chamber. Have 2 onos sitting in wait down a hall cloaked and the SGs walk into the trap and are devoured, but its rare your able to stop a SG train, thats why we have Redemption.
<!--QuoteBegin--White Kite Fauna+Aug 6 2003, 08:38 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (White Kite Fauna @ Aug 6 2003, 08:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hmm. How easy it is!
You are in the middle of the long "empty" corridor. You hear nasty "tap-tap-tap" on the floor, approaching. You suggest actually opening a prompt and start typing THAT? Really? Did YOU try that? Did it work? Ok, suppose skulk will wait for you to finish typing, or wait until you pressed the button if u have shortcut. What is the chance that comm will hear you, if he's busy with some more important stuff? Suppose he did. What is the cahnce that he will spend res on scan? Hmm. Suppose he will. What time is needed for the scan sequence to be performed and uncloack stuff? For how long it will be uncloacked? "Please, comm, scan again, I seen the skulk in the end of the corri..."..
Hmm. I say it's not fair to cloack moving objects. And MT, observatory and scans are in no way to compensate that (see other posts about MT not working, etc.). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What are you slow in the head? you don't need the commander, you simply have to spray the area with weps fire. Anything that is hit will uncloak. if you don't have enough ammo, thats your own fault, but when would that ever happen, becasue you shouldn't be moving alone, if you are, you deserve to be gutted!
Cloaking moving things only applys to SCs, the upgrade for personal cloak won't save you and MT will still find you.
If you think there is a SC in the area, fire off a few rounds! I will take 250 rounds with my LMG and spend 150 of them just checking the area for claoked things. Try it, you don't always need the commander to wipe your butt!
Gorge is fun, since I singelhandidly defeated the marines base in The Great Viaduct <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
The main problem is 2.0 that I have found is games can get no where. I had a game last night the first 30 minutes was typical NS game then the following hour and a half got absolutly nowhere, I was aliens and what we kept doing was getting usually upto 7 onos at a time rushing one of the marines turret farms everytime because onos are weak we all died redempt etc. There was a stupid ammount of turrets (why cant there be limits like OCs) we went for the TFs once they saw that they put 5 TFs are every turret farm. There was a turret farm in one of the hives too it was impossible for aliens to get anywhere. The marines had lost of the map apart from the turret farms so they could not not win either. Turret farms are just not fun in there current state. The old 1.x you could have used the fade rocket to take them down but with only 2 hives it cant be done.
Anyway I had a idea that could help fix this, Both sides (for balance) have some sort of superunit, obviously it would have to be mega expensive to stop it been used as a main strat. This unit should easily be able to get rid of turret farms etc for aliens. Not sure for marines if they are winning they can usually win pretty easy so its probally not nessercery for them to have one.
You dont need a super unit to take down a base, you simply need a balanced team who all put their abilities to the best use.
For example all onos aint gonna get far, but an umbra'd onos with a gorge bile bombing while skulks cause general mayhem will be far more effective. Its all about getting a healthy balance, last night i told my team no one else should go onos, and too my shock (with some explaining) they did actually listen, and we had a balanced team and cleared the marines out easily.
To summarize my agreements: Yes, many fun things of previous versions are now dead or injured. Yes, many unfun things have been introduced or increased.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why bother whining? If you don't like it, simply don't play.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll tell you why I think I would consider "bothering" to "whine." NS has had fun situations on occasion, but I really have not so much been a fan of what NS is, gameplaywise, as what NS's development seemed to be going towards. I saw what bad decisions did to CS, and other games to a lesser extent. I saw NS has worth getting into because it had the potential to go in a good direction. It sounded like the dev team were testing and had goals like never before. So I want NS to fulfill this promise that I saw at one point. I don't assume all the bad will go away. I think that if you liked something, speaking up is a good thing, because thowing away good things when you're developing a game is an easy way to end up with a really bland collection of chores with the graphics to make people think it's a game.
But now I'm not so sure. It seems like they are not only making the game less interesting (while trying to make it more interesting), less fun (while trying to make it more fun), less balanced (while trying to make it more balanced), they are also telling people that this balance is the work of 4 months of testing (rather than 4 days) and that we should wait 2 weeks before discussing observations (meanwhile they start experimenting on new balance changes 5 days after the release). Stop covering up discussion.
Newbies will say wrong things, you won't stop it, with balance, with suggestions, with posts in the wrong forum, with dumb questions, with everything. You just won't stop them, you will always have to lock their threads and tell them to use "search." But what is the harm of letting people discuss their opinions? If people are so wrong about 2.0, let people counter their statements. If someone thinks 2.0 is messed up and you "know" it's not, why should you just tell them to shut up, lock their threads, delete their threads? Why not just tell them how they are wrong? And if you don't know they're wrong, why censor them?
I still have hope that NS will continue to improve how it develops, and I have always been impressed by how much work went into the appearance of NS. I am disappointed with 2.0, however. All that Vet/Playtester testing made me think 2.0 was going to be a huge step forward in terms of _gameplay_. Maybe they are moving closer to what they thought NS should be when they first sat down at the drawing board, but if they realize they can make something better, they should go back to the drawing board and try to make the best game they can.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Must you quote a huge well-thought out post and then add 4 insignificant words?
Maybe you didnt notice the forum name was general DISCUSSION and not useless crap.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It were 3 words + 1 smily actually. Must you flame?
better than putting 1 smily <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> *cough* acer r
If you think the game isn't fun anymore, don't play it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On topic, id like to say that in my experience so far game time seems to average at about the 1 hour mark. Some games are repetitive beyond belief. And devour is cool at first but after being devoured by that redeeming onos for the twentieth time you will curse the gods for giving you a brain with which to comprehend how truly and utterly **** devour is. I mean for fook's sake, there is enough waiting around in ns as it is, why look for new ways to increase the amount of waiting around?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS is finally going in the direction it was supposed to, when NS 1.0 came out, i was to say the least, disappointed. This was the game i had been following for at least 12 months before it was released, hoping to see a game that genuinely enforced good strategic team play, with people working together, covering each others backs, going on crazy reconnaisance missions before having to run away from a passing onos etc. But in the end it was CS with turrets and a commander mode. Most of the skill was either in the comm chair or the jetpacker, and the rest of the team simply had to shoot the skulks on a rush and then press 'e' to build.
Now, finally, NS has developed a real element of team play, a well organised team who controls the map will always win, i havent seen one "unjust" win in 2.0. Needless to say it was common for an alien team to play really well but get done by a decent JP HMG'r and be left with a feeling of real injustice.
Tonzak what do you want from NS? because 2.0 is miles ahead of 1.04 in what NS was actually meant to be about, despite what people say i cant think of a single thing 1.04 did better than 2.0.
NEXT <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Must you quote a huge well-thought out post and then add 4 insignificant words?
Maybe you didnt notice the forum name was general DISCUSSION and not useless crap.
On topic, id like to say that in my experience so far game time seems to average at about the 1 hour mark. Some games are repetitive beyond belief. And devour is cool at first but after being devoured by that redeeming onos for the twentieth time you will curse the gods for giving you a brain with which to comprehend how truly and utterly **** devour is. I mean for fook's sake, there is enough waiting around in ns as it is, why look for new ways to increase the amount of waiting around?
Some players don't go gorge and save up for onos, it could be 1, 3, 5 players that just don't want to waste on their team, and want to go onos to devour. then they die in a couple of minutes from 2 lmg marines. maybe gorge that built RT should get some reward, like +1 res per tick, for each rt he built. You get 1-3 res if you build ochambers, and somebody gets killed from it.
That game's not even been out a week. If you think you have it all figured out at this point... well, you're wrong. And I mean in either direction of your opinion. And please stop basing everything on 1.0: there is a reason this was called 2.0. It's a new beginning, with a direction that is closer to the original design vision. If you are patient and relaxed, you will probably see some changes that remove some of the exploits, bugs, decisions, etc. that make things tend to be less 'fun' (whatever that means - when I see topics like these without IMHO prefacing every post, it just makes me a tad angry. Subjectiveness presented as fact always makes MonsE smash). I still want to see some good commanding, to be honest. So far, I've watched a couple good commanders (they win their games by NOT farming, wasting time, expending unneccessary resources, etc. - go watch Khaim if you don't believe me). Mostly though, I've seen a lot of rather uninspired Marine play. It's like when 1.0 came out and everyone said kharaa were far too weak - once they started playing like kharaa and not like CT's with claws, they started winning a lot more. In fact, it took months for tiresome 'fun' gameplay like JP/HMG rushes to spread and ruin the game.
As for the 'OMG FIX IT RIGHT NOW OR ELSE I QUIT' posts and emails I get... chill out. Learn to code, get more patient, or take a hike.
<!--QuoteBegin--El Pollo Loco+Aug 6 2003, 10:17 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (El Pollo Loco @ Aug 6 2003, 10:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Personally I think 2.0 is just as much fun as 1.04. It just depends on who you play with.
The biggest problem that people are having with 2.0 seems to be with the fact that it is new and so are most of the players.
In 1.04 what would happen when someone would jump in the comm chair not knowing that a 2 hive lock down or a JP HMG rush were the best strats. or when someone would Gorge not knowing the order was Def, Movement, Sense. The answer is simple that team would usually lose and everyone would complain and moan just like whats happening now.
Just wait it out and try to enjoy the game if your not at least trying to enjoy it you won't. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> wow, someone knows what they are talking about, just enjoy the game guys.
For those of you who still say that we should wait and see if 2.0 is balanced, or say that the team that deserves the win always gets it, please read what Flayra has said recently:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anyone that says the aliens are weak, or that the game is totally balanced, obviously hasn't done any of the things I mentioned above. Aliens are soundly beating marines in 9 out of 10 competitive games, and this is due to a couple last minute changes we made at the end of our private beta. The game that had finally gotten balanced near the end, was no longer as fun as it should've been, so we took the risk and traded balance for fun. That's what 2.0 is. It's fun, but not balanced yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Gone is the challenge of using shotguns. It's child's play now.
Have they changed?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes yes they have indeed, i agree with childsplay now, i loved my shotgun back in 1.04 becuase it was a challenge, man i had so much fun getting kills off it, now its almost like an auto shotgun which i find in good use but not a challenge, in 1.04 when i got a shotgun kill it made me feel proud becuase all you had was a 1 -2 shot on a skulk or fade before it got close to you and your aim had to be perdfect, now u hold down fire and get 4-5 hits on them b4 they get close <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
What it seems most people call "fun" are tricky or exploitative ways of using the game engine to get an advantage over someone who has not yet mastered the same skill. My question is, regarding the "fun" skills you know and love in 1.04 that no longer apply in 2.0, how long did it take you to even realize that these really existed as powerful strategies? How many weeks/months of playing the game? There will be little exploits and jiggery pokeries discovered about 2.0 in no time. Lamenting the loss of old ones seems counterproductive.
I agree on some point. The shotgun has greatly lost it's fun-factor with the increase in fire rate. It just isn't satysfying anymore to get a shotgun kill.
Now, when you're by yourself with 3 hive aliens cuz the rest of your useless squad died and you're underneath a hive getting 3 kills every 10 seconds because they're trying to stop you....that's a different story.
I find gorge to be very very fun. But, it's NOT very fun when people just save up all thier friggin res to go onos or fade or something, and then they die because they had no upgrade chambers. That makes it very non-fun, all the non-team thinkers out there.
Comments
Um, have you been playing ns? its quite easy actually....
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Have you even been playing NS? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah but ive not used a shotgun much, just a couple of shells fired every now and again... i asked a question didnt i?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thats silly, he was simply showing his opinion to the new patch. Besides I see no references to quake style gameplay in his post. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point being that most of his complaints were based around features that have been improved to
make them more reliant on teamwork.
I don't really know, it's what I've seen....really big changelog <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
MT doesn't track any cloaked aliens. Usually this means the same thing as saying that MT doesn't work inside a sensory area, but not quite ...
MT negation (and SoF) is actually the major use for sensory chambers against smart commanders, as smart commanders usually manage to negate the cloaking-in-battle part.
anyone who can sit down and write a list of gripes should just move on to another game.
If you have preference with past version then play the past versions, however i find this 2.0 quite alot mroe fun. Clan and Pub games used to be determined by the skill of Rambo Marines with JPs / HMGs. Lerks cannot quite match the infinate flying ability these players had, was that fun to watch your hive get killed and theres nothing u could do about it? This version promotes more teamtate and less rambos. Its great imho.
Skulk isn't any fun for me. I'd much rather help the entire team than be a selfish ****bite.
Which is why I like marines more. Everything you do on marines helps the team. You kill stuff, your TEAM gets res. You build stuff, your TEAM benefits. I like teamplay more than rambo stuff.
....of course....The Specialists Beta 2.0 is SO MUCH FUN. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
thanks for mentioning the specialists <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> I tried beta 1.2 or something and didnt like it much but playing 2 now.. its awesome! especially love the dojo map <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>SCAN. IS IT THAT HARD</span>
Just say, "COM, could I get a scan here?". Done. It's a hard counter. It works Every Single Time you do it. (Bonus point for just going buck-wild with the GL though. It's more frightening.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm. How easy it is!
You are in the middle of the long "empty" corridor. You hear nasty "tap-tap-tap" on the floor, approaching. You suggest actually opening a prompt and start typing THAT? Really? Did YOU try that? Did it work?
Ok, suppose skulk will wait for you to finish typing, or wait until you pressed the button if u have shortcut. What is the chance that comm will hear you, if he's busy with some more important stuff? Suppose he did.
What is the cahnce that he will spend res on scan? Hmm. Suppose he will. What time is needed for the scan sequence to be performed and uncloack stuff? For how long it will be uncloacked? "Please, comm, scan again, I seen the skulk in the end of the corri..."..
Hmm. I say it's not fair to cloack moving objects. And MT, observatory and scans are in no way to compensate that (see other posts about MT not working, etc.).
Also try voice comms, much better and tbh are vital for how ns was intended to be played.
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>SCAN. IS IT THAT HARD</span>
Just say, "COM, could I get a scan here?". Done. It's a hard counter. It works Every Single Time you do it. (Bonus point for just going buck-wild with the GL though. It's more frightening.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm. How easy it is!
You are in the middle of the long "empty" corridor. You hear nasty "tap-tap-tap" on the floor, approaching. You suggest actually opening a prompt and start typing THAT? Really? Did YOU try that? Did it work?
Ok, suppose skulk will wait for you to finish typing, or wait until you pressed the button if u have shortcut. What is the chance that comm will hear you, if he's busy with some more important stuff? Suppose he did.
What is the cahnce that he will spend res on scan? Hmm. Suppose he will. What time is needed for the scan sequence to be performed and uncloack stuff? For how long it will be uncloacked? "Please, comm, scan again, I seen the skulk in the end of the corri..."..
Hmm. I say it's not fair to cloack moving objects. And MT, observatory and scans are in no way to compensate that (see other posts about MT not working, etc.). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
A. You should be in a group, and one of you probibly has a mike. That guy should use it.
B. Your com *hopefully* is watching you. He should be able to keep track of where the cloaking chambers are and should scan accordingly.
C. Scanning is free, only cost is energy.
D. When you get scanned as an alien, you uncloak extremely fast, if not instantly.
E. If you really can't deal with any of the above, spray your lmg in the general direction of the sound. One hit is all it takes to uncloak the guy. If there are "typical hiding spots" fire into those. Your teammates should be able to mop up the decloaked aliens easily.
Really, the moving while cloaking effect has one of the few hard counters in NS. People just haven't figured out how to effectively do something about it. Once coms start using the counter it'll feel less strong. We know, we went through this exact thing in the playtest.
I will not discuss balance of 2.0, mostly because it's secondary to my main focus: fun.
I had fun playing both 1.0 and 1.04. I haven't found much fun at all playing 2.0.
My favorite parts of 1.04 for were skulking for leap kills, offensive gorging for web trap/healspray/babblers, jetpack/shotgun attacking as marine, and finding creative ways to win as commander. Those things were challenging,.
Now in 2.0:
Gone is the fun of leap. The delay in fastswitch has greatly hindered the effectiveness of leap strikes or leap-biting.
Gone is the fun of webbing. Webbing was an essential skill in 1.04 to protect first two hives. It's only a nice-thing-to-have in 2.0, and almost an afterthought.
Gone is the fun of babblers. They were hilarious and humiliating. Enough said. Devour can't hold a candle to babblers.
Gone is the fun of jetpacks. Flying is fun. Jumppacks are not. I'd rather only be able to fly with an lmg, than be able to jumppack with a hmg/gl.
Gone is the challenge of using shotguns. It's child's play now.
Gone is the fun of Nancy. Best map in 1.04.
Gone is the significance of being gorge. It's more like jury duty now.
Gone is the interdependency of aliens (common res pool). Now I feel like I can just take care of my own needs with kill res.
Gone is the fun spam that is chuckle, taunt, meds. Gone is the helpful spamming calls for healspray. Instead, for marines, we now get global spam of waypoints and commander activity. Do I need to know that my commander has dropped 3 medpacks on the other side of the map? Chinese water torture, anyone?
Here's a newsflash: building turret farms is not fun, nor is killing them. Why on earth would you encourage them. Hunting for fellow humans controlling marines/aliens is fun.
To see how commanding has lost fun, look no further than the hassle of scanning.
The only definite improvement I see in 2.0 is in the visuals. Sadly, visuals don't add to my definition of fun.
Win or lose, I'd rather play a round that was unbalanced, fun, or short over one that was balanced, drawn out, or predictable.
Communism is balanced, playing golf against Tiger Woods is not. Which is more fun?
I'm truly unimpressed.
It seems fun wasn't a priority. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about you play it some more, and find the new fun bits in it?
Scan: press 5, press a, click. That did NOT take 5 seconds
Medpacks: press e, press s, click. That also didn't take 5 seconds.
Seriously, I tried comming 2.0 for the first time last night and I had no problem using the hotkeys and squads. They make everything MUCH easier to use and extremely fast.
Back to the main subject, If you had more fun in 1.04 than in 2.0 then we must have totally different concepts of fun. I dont consider straight teching to jps, then gunning down the hive so early in the game that the aliens have a 1% chance of surviving 'fun'. 1.04 the game came down to 'can you execute the jp rush?'. If so, you win, if not, you lose to fade acid spam. Whee.
No strat is 100% winnable and situations that work fine at one time may do horrendous the next time.
In the meantime.
Onos? = Get shot guns, even a standard no upgrade shot gun will bring down an onos.
Cloaked Skulks?= MT
Cloaked buildings? Scanner sweep/ Observatories. Notice how aliens build little SC with a fwe OCS and maybe a DC up around the map? Marines can do it too with an OBs and some turrets.
Webs in your way?= Weld them.
Heavy armour got you down?= Devour and Redemption.
Turret Farm in your way?= 1 bile bomb Gorge, One lerk with umbra. No bile bomb? One Onos bulldoser with umbra support.
For both sides You may have noticed how Sentry turrets and OCs now aquire targets A LOT faster then in earlier versions. They are also more accurate.
Electrifed Res node? Onos with regeneration. No onos? Get a gorge to heal spray a skulk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
GL keeping you back, Try being a fade with the new Blink and run up and hit him and run out
The only thing I can't see an effective counter for is the evil
SG rush, give 5 ppl SGs and send them to a hive, drop meds on them and there isn't anything you can really do to stop them.
Onos will go down in 3 shots, 4 to 5 with level 3 carapace
Hive will go down in less then 5 seconds (really could use the random Umbra protection)
The only counter I have seen to this is the Sensory chamber.
Have 2 onos sitting in wait down a hall cloaked and the SGs walk into the trap and are devoured, but its rare your able to stop a SG train, thats why we have Redemption.
You are in the middle of the long "empty" corridor. You hear nasty "tap-tap-tap" on the floor, approaching. You suggest actually opening a prompt and start typing THAT? Really? Did YOU try that? Did it work?
Ok, suppose skulk will wait for you to finish typing, or wait until you pressed the button if u have shortcut. What is the chance that comm will hear you, if he's busy with some more important stuff? Suppose he did.
What is the cahnce that he will spend res on scan? Hmm. Suppose he will. What time is needed for the scan sequence to be performed and uncloack stuff? For how long it will be uncloacked? "Please, comm, scan again, I seen the skulk in the end of the corri..."..
Hmm. I say it's not fair to cloack moving objects. And MT, observatory and scans are in no way to compensate that (see other posts about MT not working, etc.). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What are you slow in the head?
you don't need the commander, you simply have to spray the area with weps fire. Anything that is hit will uncloak.
if you don't have enough ammo, thats your own fault, but when would that ever happen, becasue you shouldn't be moving alone, if you are, you deserve to be gutted!
Cloaking moving things only applys to SCs, the upgrade for personal cloak won't save you and MT will still find you.
If you think there is a SC in the area, fire off a few rounds!
I will take 250 rounds with my LMG and spend 150 of them just checking the area for claoked things.
Try it, you don't always need the commander to wipe your butt!
Anyway I had a idea that could help fix this, Both sides (for balance) have some sort of superunit, obviously it would have to be mega expensive to stop it been used as a main strat. This unit should easily be able to get rid of turret farms etc for aliens. Not sure for marines if they are winning they can usually win pretty easy so its probally not nessercery for them to have one.
The deadlocks need to be sorted somehow.
For example all onos aint gonna get far, but an umbra'd onos with a gorge bile bombing while skulks cause general mayhem will be far more effective. Its all about getting a healthy balance, last night i told my team no one else should go onos, and too my shock (with some explaining) they did actually listen, and we had a balanced team and cleared the marines out easily.
Yes, many fun things of previous versions are now dead or injured.
Yes, many unfun things have been introduced or increased.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why bother whining? If you don't like it, simply don't play.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll tell you why I think I would consider "bothering" to "whine." NS has had fun situations on occasion, but I really have not so much been a fan of what NS is, gameplaywise, as what NS's development seemed to be going towards. I saw what bad decisions did to CS, and other games to a lesser extent. I saw NS has worth getting into because it had the potential to go in a good direction. It sounded like the dev team were testing and had goals like never before. So I want NS to fulfill this promise that I saw at one point. I don't assume all the bad will go away. I think that if you liked something, speaking up is a good thing, because thowing away good things when you're developing a game is an easy way to end up with a really bland collection of chores with the graphics to make people think it's a game.
But now I'm not so sure. It seems like they are not only making the game less interesting (while trying to make it more interesting), less fun (while trying to make it more fun), less balanced (while trying to make it more balanced), they are also telling people that this balance is the work of 4 months of testing (rather than 4 days) and that we should wait 2 weeks before discussing observations (meanwhile they start experimenting on new balance changes 5 days after the release). Stop covering up discussion.
Newbies will say wrong things, you won't stop it, with balance, with suggestions, with posts in the wrong forum, with dumb questions, with everything. You just won't stop them, you will always have to lock their threads and tell them to use "search." But what is the harm of letting people discuss their opinions? If people are so wrong about 2.0, let people counter their statements. If someone thinks 2.0 is messed up and you "know" it's not, why should you just tell them to shut up, lock their threads, delete their threads? Why not just tell them how they are wrong? And if you don't know they're wrong, why censor them?
I still have hope that NS will continue to improve how it develops, and I have always been impressed by how much work went into the appearance of NS. I am disappointed with 2.0, however. All that Vet/Playtester testing made me think 2.0 was going to be a huge step forward in terms of _gameplay_. Maybe they are moving closer to what they thought NS should be when they first sat down at the drawing board, but if they realize they can make something better, they should go back to the drawing board and try to make the best game they can.
Maybe you didnt notice the forum name was general DISCUSSION and not useless crap.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It were 3 words + 1 smily actually.
Must you flame?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Byebye now <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
NEXT<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
better than putting 1 smily <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> *cough* acer r
If you think the game isn't fun anymore, don't play it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On topic, id like to say that in my experience so far game time seems to average at about the 1 hour mark. Some games are repetitive beyond belief. And devour is cool at first but after being devoured by that redeeming onos for the twentieth time you will curse the gods for giving you a brain with which to comprehend how truly and utterly **** devour is. I mean for fook's sake, there is enough waiting around in ns as it is, why look for new ways to increase the amount of waiting around?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's called gameplay.
But in the end it was CS with turrets and a commander mode. Most of the skill was either in the comm chair or the jetpacker, and the rest of the team simply had to shoot the skulks on a rush and then press 'e' to build.
Now, finally, NS has developed a real element of team play, a well organised team who controls the map will always win, i havent seen one "unjust" win in 2.0. Needless to say it was common for an alien team to play really well but get done by a decent JP HMG'r and be left with a feeling of real injustice.
Tonzak what do you want from NS? because 2.0 is miles ahead of 1.04 in what NS was actually meant to be about, despite what people say i cant think of a single thing 1.04 did better than 2.0.
Byebye now <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
NEXT <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Must you quote a huge well-thought out post and then add 4 insignificant words?
Maybe you didnt notice the forum name was general DISCUSSION and not useless crap.
On topic, id like to say that in my experience so far game time seems to average at about the 1 hour mark. Some games are repetitive beyond belief. And devour is cool at first but after being devoured by that redeeming onos for the twentieth time you will curse the gods for giving you a brain with which to comprehend how truly and utterly **** devour is. I mean for fook's sake, there is enough waiting around in ns as it is, why look for new ways to increase the amount of waiting around?
maybe gorge that built RT should get some reward, like +1 res per tick, for each rt he built.
You get 1-3 res if you build ochambers, and somebody gets killed from it.
As for the 'OMG FIX IT RIGHT NOW OR ELSE I QUIT' posts and emails I get... chill out. Learn to code, get more patient, or take a hike.
(Edited for horrendous spelling and grammar.)
Fighting against aliens as a marine is now a chore.
Why is a whole matter unto itself.
The biggest problem that people are having with 2.0 seems to be with the fact that it is new and so are most of the players.
In 1.04 what would happen when someone would jump in the comm chair not knowing that a 2 hive lock down or a JP HMG rush were the best strats. or when someone would Gorge not knowing the order was Def, Movement, Sense. The answer is simple that team would usually lose and everyone would complain and moan just like whats happening now.
Just wait it out and try to enjoy the game if your not at least trying to enjoy it you won't. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
wow, someone knows what they are talking about, just enjoy the game guys.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anyone that says the aliens are weak, or that the game is totally balanced, obviously hasn't done any of the things I mentioned above. Aliens are soundly beating marines in 9 out of 10 competitive games, and this is due to a couple last minute changes we made at the end of our private beta. The game that had finally gotten balanced near the end, was no longer as fun as it should've been, so we took the risk and traded balance for fun. That's what 2.0 is. It's fun, but not balanced yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=31&t=41193' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...ST&f=31&t=41193</a>
Have they changed?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes yes they have indeed, i agree with childsplay now, i loved my shotgun back in 1.04 becuase it was a challenge, man i had so much fun getting kills off it, now its almost like an auto shotgun which i find in good use but not a challenge, in 1.04 when i got a shotgun kill it made me feel proud becuase all you had was a 1 -2 shot on a skulk or fade before it got close to you and your aim had to be perdfect, now u hold down fire and get 4-5 hits on them b4 they get close <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now, when you're by yourself with 3 hive aliens cuz the rest of your useless squad died and you're underneath a hive getting 3 kills every 10 seconds because they're trying to stop you....that's a different story.
I find gorge to be very very fun. But, it's NOT very fun when people just save up all thier friggin res to go onos or fade or something, and then they die because they had no upgrade chambers. That makes it very non-fun, all the non-team thinkers out there.