How Do I Convince These Idiots
Monkeybonk
Join Date: 2003-08-04 Member: 18859Banned
Join Date: 2003-08-04 Member: 18859Banned
<div class="IPBDescription">THAT MC IS BETTER THEN DAMN SC!?</div> I'm sick and TIRED of SDM being the set-in-stone chamber style. The only way I can get MC first is if I go gorge in the first second of play and drop it before someone drops an SC!
RRRGH! Cloaking is countered by the stupidest-**** things: Moving! Taking Damage! Observatories! Scanner Sweeps!
I asked in like... 5 servers if we could have MC first.
"NO WAY"
"OMG NOOB"
"NOOB OMG ADMIN KICK"
"SC R TEH BEST FIRST!"
And then, Fades without MC are WORTHLESS! Talk about restriciting your team INTENTIONALLY!
RRRGH! Cloaking is countered by the stupidest-**** things: Moving! Taking Damage! Observatories! Scanner Sweeps!
I asked in like... 5 servers if we could have MC first.
"NO WAY"
"OMG NOOB"
"NOOB OMG ADMIN KICK"
"SC R TEH BEST FIRST!"
And then, Fades without MC are WORTHLESS! Talk about restriciting your team INTENTIONALLY!
Comments
And I must say I laughed when you said that sensory cloaking was countered by Moving. Ha ha ha.
At least you took back your previous stance on Fades I guess?
And I must say I laughed when you said that sensory cloaking was countered by Moving. Ha ha ha. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's true...
I said "Celerity is incredible with skulks."
They say: "Celerity is countered by Motion Tracking."
Me - "... huh? Does it stop me from doing it? Too bad an observatory counters sensory chambers TWO ways without research."
I don't know if I am the only one, but getting SoF early in the game is devastating to the marine team and their frantic rush for res.
I don't know if I am the only one, but getting SoF early in the game is devastating to the marine team and their frantic rush for res. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Defending RTs? Too bad you can immediatly tell if there's an RT there or not because you can see the white trail.
And it seems your dead set on building MC? But SC is very useful until the second hive comes up. Its still useful for SoF and for cloaking/ambushing but it has no offensive power at all.
EDIT: Why dont you try different servers? On the Ozforces server theres always a mix between dc/mc/sc.
I get quite sick of admins pulling that kind of crap.
That way they'll be forced to make more MCs to put it to full effect,or force them to F4
And movement can hurt heaps,provided you get the right upgrades (silenced skulk = teh pwn)
I do not see a problem with dropping MCs first,they are just plain overdoing SC,I mean there are many things that can counter it.
The silhouette,the slightly discolored background,when you get touched,when you get shot,when you get scanned
I would only put up SCs if the map has a whole lot of hiding spots for them,and yet they just put an SC next to an RT :\
Talk about how SC rocks when you put it in plain view :\
EDIT : If I knew where they lived I'd walk right there with a hammer and bash their nuttz0rs until I convince them that MC is great <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
EDIT - RANT - Its wierd, Flayra wanted to make all the chambers viable so he gave sensory chambers this great ability to cloak everything around them. But to win the game the aliens need higher life forms, and unfortunately the sensory upgrades offer no real advantage, so you still need MC's and DC's to protect your huge investment in a lerk/fade/onos. The sensory chamber is great, but it can more or less only be used for defensive purposes. Building sensory on a pub is more or less committing to a 3 hive win. They are a great aid when defending an area, but they will not help you to take an offensive on a marine outpost in any way. So the game ends up taking a really long time.
Sensory gives skulks a huge advantage against vanilla marines, especially in the early match. Maybe you dont know how to set up an ambush, but 99% of the time marines will walk right past you and the SC, allowing for a rear attack, or easy ambushes at a hive. Sure, motion tracking will eventually counter it, but by then, you should have your second hive in play, and you can have whatever tower you want. Silence is alright, but the marines can still see you.
In all honesty, any chamber can be built first. If sensories are placed in good spots(aka vents, or hard to reach places for marines) and cover most of the map(which if I gorge, I try to do.. otherwise, three SCs next to each other are useless) can EASILY decimate the marines. Yeah, SURE, it can be easily countered, but most pub commanders don't take the time to upgrade into motion, especially since it's a bit hard to know what chamber has been dropped. (Whereas in 1.04, you knew for sure it was def)
Now let's break it down: Sensories are pretty good for several things. They can cover a good area, and if well-placed, cover at least two areas without having the SC destroyed or being discovered. (Like if you play ns_hera and start in Archiving.. you can build in the room outside and cover Holoroom) SCs are also very useful for setting up traps for marines to walk into. If you place OCs correctly, you can have a group of marines walk into a room then get blasted by OCs(as opposed to blocking a door) OCs do about 12 to 15 damage.. so a few can bring down a few marines, especially since most marines wouldn't focus fire and be completely disoriented(great time for skulks to ambush). The other thing is scent of fear, which cannot be countered, is one of the most devastating upgrades there is. Basically just a short-range motion tracking. Great for all the evolutions. Cloaking isn't that great if all the SCs are placed correctly, otherwise it can help out gorges building RTs or forward areas.
Now let's bring up Movement. Movement is only good the evolutions, not the structures(whereas Defense and Sensory are). Silence is a great initial upgrade because most pub commanders don't (like I said before) get observatories and motion tracking up soon. This is great for sneaking up on marines or even tracking them. Great for skulks and gorges, not really much for lerks, since lerks should be getting the next upgrade. Adrenaline isn't that useful as an upgrade initially, since gorges should be staying away from the frontlines at this point, and skulks can pretty much kill marines before running out of energy. (Great for lerks if they want to spore spam and such) Celerity is an all around good upgrade, depending on how the evolution uses it. Good for gorges if they want to do bile bomb hit-and-runs, good for onos to take down a turret then go back and heal, and best used with skulks so they can cover ground easy(especially useful in the beginning if you need to save a hive or a gorge) Movements can also be used like a wall to quickly recover energy(think in terms of defense chambers, but instead of health, energy. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
Last and pretty important chamber is defense. It doesn't always have to be the first or even second upgrade, but damn if it doesn't help a lot. Regeneration for any evolution can be tremendously helpful, for those lerks in vents, scouring skulks, and hit-and-run gorges. (It's also pretty helpful for Onos, not for Fade, unless you don't ever want to use the Metabolize skill) Carapace, one of the most powerful upgrades back in 1.04, seems entirely useless in 2.0. Quite a bit of people complaing it doesn't help much, and I can pretty much agree with this as well, except when I'm xenociding. It just doesn't seem to reduce as much damage as should. Redemption.. heh.. was pretty unused in 1.04, but now in 2.0 is a very helpful skill in the beginning and end games. Since the incorporation of the resources for kills system(aka RFK), you can avoid giving your enemy res by redeeming. (I'd rather spend two res on the upgrade, then giving it to the marines!) With most evolutions, the redemption upgrade can be incredibly helpful. If you're a skulk, you CAN still redempt.. just don't be stupid and run directly into marines. Helpeful for gorges as well, especially if they don't want to waste another ten resources to go gorge again. Not that useful for lerks, since regeneration is one of more useful upgrades to help keep the lerk at the frontlines. Redemption is a good upgrade for Fades and Onos, that get stuck in jams. Especially since the Onos seems incredibly weak in the end-game (with mass turrets farms) Anyway, it's also helpful putting in packs around OCs, or hives, or around marine occupied areas.
Not only are the movement's evolutions the best, but the ability to transport from hive to hive(more specifically, to building hives under attack) is as good or better than the SC and DC's chamber effect. Why do you think Flayra wanted to try and take it out in 2.01c?
Not only are the movement's evolutions the best, but the ability to transport from hive to hive(more specifically, to building hives under attack) is as good or better than the SC and DC's chamber effect. Why do you think Flayra wanted to try and take it out in 2.01c? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I knew I forgot something.. and it still doesn't help structures like I initially said. And from what I've read, I'm pretty sure Flayra nerfed the MC because the aliens can easily take over most of the map(including RTs) within two minutes of the game starting, whereas marines may barely just getting an RT up or still building in base.
And no.. no chamber is better than the other. They have their all own unique uses, and depending how executed, can be much better than another chamber executed poorly.
Man the pub servers here in Australia must be a cut above the others then. Every half decent com on our servers throws down an obs real early, as well as building them in forward bases. I totally agree that silence is an excelllent skill (as is celerity), and one of the main reasons fewer aliens are choseing sensory first is that our coms are learning how to easily counter it.
Man the pub servers here in Australia must be a cut above the others then. Every half decent com on our servers throws down an obs real early, as well as building them in forward bases. I totally agree that silence is an excelllent skill (as is celerity), and one of the main reasons fewer aliens are choseing sensory first is that our coms are learning how to easily counter it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, of course, soon a bunch of strategies will start popping up.. then a few will be set in stone.. just like 1.04. However, with all RTS games, you have to be able to quickly change your strategy.. if not.. well then, you're screwed. (like if a bunch of newbies used THE BEST STRARAEGETY IN TEH WORLAD doesn't mean it'll make them win)
The biggest problem as RaVe pointed out... Some gorges are just morons and dont know how to place SCs properly. I hide my SCs underwater, in vents, ontop of towers, on the other side of the wall, just any place where rines will NEVER look.
Hell i could place an SC in double res on Tanith and marines will never find it. Allowing you to quickly take back double res if marines have it. Hell the SC drop spot even gives you a great bilebomb position too, and unless they have GL or JP they aint gonna kill you.
And who said SC doesnt have any offensive capabilties? Have you ever taken a turret farmed hive by yourself as a gorge w/ 1 SC and 2 DC next to you? I sneak hives cloaked under SCs all the time w/ a turret farm right underneath it. Hell you can have an cloaked Onos run up right next to a TF and start wacking at it before the turrets start shooting, greatly increasing your chance of taking it down before you die. Tell me a Celerity Onos can do that... cause they cant.
Does that sound like SC has no offensive capabilities? The ability to go invisible to ambush, retreat, and attack w/o the enemy seeing you is a incredible tactical ability especially w/ SoF that comes with it. Who freaking cares if you can run a lil bit faster, or shoot a lil bit more. Would you rather have that 3rd hive that rines locked-down or would you rather keep trying to run in real fast and kill that TF? My thoughts exactly.
Also you counter w/ they can use Ob and scan but you do know that to scan it cost rines res per scan right? Which could be used instead for upgrades, weapons, or armor. Can they seriously afford to scan everywhere for that SC? I highly doubt it.
SDM 4 life... MDS sucks
SDM 4 life... MDS sucks <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, Observatories have their own private "resources". (Good to have multiple, strategically placed observatories as well)
SDM 4 life... MDS sucks <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, Observatories have their own private "resources". (Good to have multiple, strategically placed observatories as well) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
agreed... but when i have an SC near an Ob and i need the SC's cloaking ability I bomb the Ob first, problem solved. And normally rines are pressed on res if aliens are playing correctly so they cant have Obs at every base. And systematically take over the map from the rines, which shouldnt have happened in the first place.
Any chamber for an organised clan is viable.
Also what zek said.
Most of the time now, gorges seem so scared to choose a chamber that NO ONE puts any down until either the 2nd hive is up or someone on the team starts yelling about how they cant kill a single marine unless they have a certain chamber (usually MCs)
Personally, I'd rather have the marines spending all their res on obs chambers and MT than weapon/armor upgrades. And unless you're one of those people that has to go Onos early in the game, any chamber will do. If you are one of those people, tough, you get what the gorge (who is spending his resources for the team) gives you. No complaint. Sure you can get Onos 5 mins into the game, OR you can have 3 hives and most of the res on the map in 5 mins, and everyone can go whatever they want soon after that, with all the upgrade chambers, it depends on how team-oriented you are.
If SCs keep the comm busy scanning everywhere and putting lots of obs down instead of branching out and upgrading, how can you say that isnt useful or an offensive tactic? Esp. in the early game, when res is rare and important to use correctly as a marine.
never SC
because once u get 2 hives u want some good offencive,, if u dont have mc and dc u will be paying for it, no sorry mate ur the noob, if u go sc first then fair enough, but all it takes is 1 good comm with scan and end of story sc does crap and as lerks and fades and onos cant get celerity or adren i disgree with u, lerk onos and fade need these upgrades if u sc and marine team gets 1 hive locked down u really cant come back (this is assuming both teams are of equal skill)
never SC
because once u get 2 hives u want some good offencive,, if u dont have mc and dc u will be paying for it, no sorry mate ur the noob, if u go sc first then fair enough, but all it takes is 1 good comm with scan and end of story sc does crap and as lerks and fades and onos cant get celerity or adren i disgree with u, lerk onos and fade need these upgrades if u sc and marine team gets 1 hive locked down u really cant come back (this is assuming both teams are of equal skill) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
so you would rather have marines having HMGs and GL when you turn onos?
This game is all about tactics. If you can divert resources and delay rine teching your gonna have that 3rd hive anyways. So it does matter if you have SC or not. And like i said for clan play, MC is not going to help you against a good rine clan. Sure you can run faster and **** like that but i would rather have rines building stuff in hive w/ my 3 skulk buddies cloaked ready to bite their ****.
Saves the energy of trying to close in on them.
The old order of D>M>S still seems the best to me. But unfortunately I am forced to go with the masses, and the masses cry movement =(
Man the pub servers here in Australia must be a cut above the others then. Every half decent com on our servers throws down an obs real early, as well as building them in forward bases. I totally agree that silence is an excelllent skill (as is celerity), and one of the main reasons fewer aliens are choseing sensory first is that our coms are learning how to easily counter it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see this too. I also have a 100% win rate against sensory first. I scan religiously and waypoint EVERY sensory chamber. I also know where every alien sensory place is (usually because I used to build them in those places myself)
Comms that lose to sensory first either lose to the alien rapid expansion (where you'd be screwed anyway) or because they don't scan enough. Scanning is a hard counter and utterly massacres the aliens ability to use sensory. If you do this you essentially make the chamber useless. Once at a 2 hive farm you've won the game in 90% of cases.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If SCs keep the comm busy scanning everywhere and putting lots of obs down instead of branching out and upgrading, how can you say that isnt useful or an offensive tactic? Esp. in the early game, when res is rare and important to use correctly as a marine. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Has it occured to you that you've also wasted resources placing SC's to begin with. Instead of doing the alien thing of rapidly spreading everywhere like a cancer, most sensory first aliens are busy stuffing around their various sensory chambers. If you can easily scan to find and tag these, the aliens have wasted BOTH time and res. Celerity from movements not only lets aliens defend better, it aids their expansion by a ton.
I'm FAR more happy as a comm to fight sensory first aliens, without carapace or celerity my marines can kill them that much easier. Finally, you're also stuck with it. If it comes down to a lockdown, you're pretty screwed LATER on.