<!--QuoteBegin--[USCM]Lieutenant Ripley+Aug 31 2003, 11:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([USCM]Lieutenant Ripley @ Aug 31 2003, 11:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If MC gave silence AND adren. I'd consider it as a DECENT chamber. For now, worst 1st chamber. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> MC gives silence, adrenaline and celerity. So I guess you'd consider it decent.
There's been a lot of people talking about the vaunted sensory network, but it's impractical. On most servers, you get a few temp Gorges and maybe 2 dedicated Gorges if you're lucky. Temp Gorges usually just drop a hive, RT or the three chambers at the hive for upgrades, so you now put the network burden on the two dedicated Gorges. Considering they also have to make RTs, heal stations, OC walls, bilebomb and be the heal monkey for anybody who runs up to them, they don't have the time or resources for a proper network. A sensory here and there maybe, but nothing to write home about.
Cloaking involves camping. That means you have to remain motionless (I'm talking upgrade, not chamber cloak). If you remain motionless with silence, marines can't pick you up on MT <i>or</i> hear you. In 2.01d you can cloak walk, but speed is life for Lerks, Skulks and Fades.
Lots of people seem to downplay the ability to teleport between hives. While it's not as impressive as phase gates, it's very useful for traveling to hotspots or a hive that's under attack.
As of 2.01d, I'd say that the chambers are pretty balanced for the early game. Fades and Onos still benefit more from MC/DC though.
<!--QuoteBegin--The Finch+Sep 1 2003, 11:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The Finch @ Sep 1 2003, 11:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As of 2.01d, I'd say that the chambers are pretty balanced for the early game. Fades and Onos still benefit more from MC/DC though. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, this is the exact reason I've started to go S/M/D
Yeah, it seems to make the games longer and harder to win for aliens, but it really stuffs up the res-hoarders.
Them: "Agh! My Onos is useless without regen/redempt. Who's the noob gorge?" Me: "What the heck are you doing with 100 res 6 minutes into the game anyway? Go drop the second hive or some res-towers so the rest of us can evolve."
<!--QuoteBegin--a civilian+Sep 1 2003, 05:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a civilian @ Sep 1 2003, 05:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Regarding motion tracking countering celerity and carapace, I'd actually turn that around and say celerity and carapace are partial counters to motion tracking. This is because motion tracking is at peak effectiveness if your enemy is weak and has to rely on stealth, and this is not the case if they have carapace or celerity. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It just doesn't work like that, you can't turn it on its head. The chambers give an advantage to aliens, and the the motion tracking takes from it. No matter how fast you are, or how many more bullets you can take, it doesn't negate the fact the marines been tracking you from 30 meters away and has moved himself into a prime position to kill you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->sensory doesn't really HELP at ALL. the only thing it does is allows you to do cool eyecandy stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If that is what you think I suggest you read this thread, a lot of people have given very well thought out views and opinions on what SC's can do for an alien team without you making generalised and unthoughtful comments like this <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But how can sens help deny res nodes?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How can MC or DC "deny" res nodes? DC certainly can't, it can heal them if the aliens manage to stave off an attack. MC does absolutely nothing to help save or deny res nodes, other than if a gorge is around perhaps. SC however cloaks RT's (not so useful) but also OC nests that marines can walk into without even realising...they can also allow aliens to clear out attacks on res points as good as DC or MC.
Overall SC is the best chamber for denying any area to the marines.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There's been a lot of people talking about the vaunted sensory network, but it's impractical. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It really does depend on the team. I'm usually a perma-gorge, and if the whole team has capped res, I don't need to, and I can start making a network...another gorge will at some point SC up other places, and I can work from that.
In other games gorges don't help out and people res hoard without actually capping res towers...SC's problem is much more rooted to how well the team works, as you've said really.
<!--QuoteBegin--BlueNovember+Sep 1 2003, 05:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BlueNovember @ Sep 1 2003, 05:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Jojoshua+Sep 1 2003, 12:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jojoshua @ Sep 1 2003, 12:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sensory helps a lot if you know what your doing with it. Set up ambushes in choke points, continously harass denying them res nodes and at the same time you are getting so much res for kills you can make chambers,hives,nodes at a much faster pace. The comm can scan every now and then but its very limited in countering over a long period of time. The only time sensory would not work is if you can not get kills off of it. That would be a very sad case if so.
If you want to prove me wrong, drop an IP. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed.
But how can sens help deny res nodes? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Sensory helps deny nodes simple. Either sit cloaked near their nearest RTs or get them in different spots as they come out of their base. Keeping them busy even for a few mins is a big advantage. They get no res, while you gain.
<!--QuoteBegin--niaccurshi+Sep 1 2003, 12:13 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (niaccurshi @ Sep 1 2003, 12:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Spend a bunch of your res just to cater to domineering res hoarders?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, sensory for res hoarders, you having a laugh? The only people that actually really hate sensory first are those that are looking to go fade, onos or sometimes lerk...the same people that hoard res and play for frags more than owt else....so how can you make the above statement (assuming I'm reading it right).
-Lee <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yea, exactly, movement chambers really help out the res hoarders the most, while sc helps out the gorges the most. Seriously, what the hell is a gorge going to do with movements "best" "godlike" upgrade, silence? Stalk the marines down and health spray them to death? (sounds like fun though <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ) And if your onos 8 minutes into the game there's a big problem there, I mean really, you should only be going onos by the time the second hive goes up or if you're losing badly. And sens even helps out skulks and lerks more then mc does. Silence with a skulk is good but there's that radar bug, I've gotten lots of skulk kills by watching my radar, it's pretty obvious when the big red icon shows up behind you that you should turn around and fire. And with lerks adrenaline is nice but it's awesome to be able to see the marines through the wall, jump out spray quick, <u><i>accurate</i></u> shots at them, less chance of dying and wasting that 30 res too.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited September 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--niaccurshi+Sep 1 2003, 02:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (niaccurshi @ Sep 1 2003, 02:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It just doesn't work like that, you can't turn it on its head. The chambers give an advantage to aliens, and the the motion tracking takes from it. No matter how fast you are, or how many more bullets you can take, it doesn't negate the fact the marines been tracking you from 30 meters away and has moved himself into a prime position to kill you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Similarly, motion tracking gives an advantage to the marines, and the chamber upgrades take away from that advantage. No matter how well you prepare for him, it doesn't negate the fact that he is stronger or faster. So you could say they counter each other, or you could say neither counters the other.
<!--QuoteBegin--DarkDude+Sep 1 2003, 03:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkDude @ Sep 1 2003, 03:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Seriously, what the hell is a gorge going to do with movements "best" "godlike" upgrade, silence?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The movement chamber provides other upgrades as well. Celerity is my favorite upgrade when battlegorging.
I really don't see the problem with saving your res for an Onos or Fade.
If your whole team is Gorge dropping chambers at the start, then they have 0 res and have to wait longer to evolve into a lifeform. In the times that I have saved my res I have went Onos and been a big help to the team. Usually I go Gorge and drop a chamber though. But this is beside the point.
I'll just repeat my point I made before. SC only becomes viable if you have large networks, due to the speed of the res you get in the early game and temp Gorges, you will not have a good network. If you want to build a large network then you don't have enough res for hives, OCs or res points. With the other chambers it's drop and go. With all the talk of, "it's good on paper not in reality," I have yet to see an effective network of SCs with the first hive.
If you are talking about defending res points with SC then that's just useless. For that to be good you would have to have a Skulk camping each res point. With DC or MC you can get to a res point and take them out using celerity or carapace.
If most of you are agreeing that SC makes for a harder game in a lockdown then why is it good? I personally get really annoyed that a base that could be taken down in 5 minutes would take 15 minutes to get taken down with SC. I'm partially impatient and in those 10 minutes I'm cheated of fun.
If the team agrees to build SC then I have no problem with that. However... If it is placed without asking I get seriously annoyed.
My last point, I made in another post. Flayra said that aliens are winning 9/10 clan games so they most be imbalanced. In a clan game I would seriously doubt an SC getting dropped first, it would either be MC or DC. So doesn't this mean they are not balanced?
I hope that made sense, I am tired <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--a civilian+Sep 1 2003, 08:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a civilian @ Sep 1 2003, 08:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Similarly, motion tracking gives an advantage to the marines, and the chamber upgrades take away from that advantage. No matter how well you prepare for him, it doesn't negate the fact that he is stronger or faster. So you could say they counter each other, or you could say neither counters the other. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Lol, or more acurrately, you could say that motion tracking still holds a big advantage over any evolution DC or MC gives, and so is the greater counter, and as such the upgrades can't be seen as counters to motion tracking...because they don't stop it...they just make marines work a little harder...with an emphasis on little.
To counter something is to stop its effects from giving benefit. MT stops your benefit of speed because you can see them coming, and the same with carapace...you know they're coming and can shoot them for longer with the more bullets needed.
Carapace doesn't counter MT because it *doesn't* stop the marine from seeing the alien...this goes for silence and celerity too.
The case of "if the aliens are behind the marine" doesn't matter either, because MT isn't a part of that process either.
<!--QuoteBegin--niaccurshi+Sep 1 2003, 12:13 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (niaccurshi @ Sep 1 2003, 12:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Spend a bunch of your res just to cater to domineering res hoarders?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, sensory for res hoarders, you having a laugh? The only people that actually really hate sensory first are those that are looking to go fade, onos or sometimes lerk...the same people that hoard res and play for frags more than owt else....so how can you make the above statement (assuming I'm reading it right).
-Lee <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You read it wrong by taking it out of context. It was a reply to another post.
<!--QuoteBegin--Cry Havoc+Sep 1 2003, 09:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cry Havoc @ Sep 1 2003, 09:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--niaccurshi+Sep 1 2003, 12:13 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (niaccurshi @ Sep 1 2003, 12:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Spend a bunch of your res just to cater to domineering res hoarders?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, sensory for res hoarders, you having a laugh? The only people that actually really hate sensory first are those that are looking to go fade, onos or sometimes lerk...the same people that hoard res and play for frags more than owt else....so how can you make the above statement (assuming I'm reading it right).
-Lee <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You read it wrong by taking it out of context. It was a reply to another post.
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Fair enough, my mistake <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> must have read it wrong <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--CaL_FiN+Sep 1 2003, 09:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CaL_FiN @ Sep 1 2003, 09:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How can you say that MT counters MC and DC..? It's like saying an armoury counters everything. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> MT counters silence to a degree, celerity a lot, redemption to a degree and carapace a lot.
By letting the marines know where the aliens are regardless of these upgrades, the aliens will lose the advantages given to them 9 times out of 10 thanks to the marines being aware of their presence.
It doesn't counter Adrenaline or Regen really, but it does counter Cloaking, though most aliens now wise up to the fact if they want cloaking then they get a gorge to build a SC nearby.
I think the real answer to all of this is just ask your team, it's not that hard. If they want mc then put up an mc, if they want sc then put up an sc.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited September 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--niaccurshi+Sep 1 2003, 04:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (niaccurshi @ Sep 1 2003, 04:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lol, or more acurrately, you could say that motion tracking still holds a big advantage over any evolution DC or MC gives, and so is the greater counter, and as such the upgrades can't be seen as counters to motion tracking...because they don't stop it...they just make marines work a little harder...with an emphasis on little.
To counter something is to stop its effects from giving benefit. MT stops your benefit of speed because you can see them coming, and the same with carapace...you know they're coming and can shoot them for longer with the more bullets needed.
Carapace doesn't counter MT because it *doesn't* stop the marine from seeing the alien...this goes for silence and celerity too.
The case of "if the aliens are behind the marine" doesn't matter either, because MT isn't a part of that process either.
But motion tracking does not stop carapace or celerity from giving benefits. Motion tracking simply gives the marines an advantage over all uncloaked aliens, regardless of whether or not they have carapace or celerity. Carapace and celerity actually <b>reduce</b> that advantage by increasing the likelihood that the alien will win an encounter with a prepared marine. However, carapace and celerity do not counter motion tracking any more than motion tracking counters them, because, like motion tracking, they provide an advantage against all marines, regardless of whether they have motion tracking, and motion tracking reduces that advantage.
Does it matter how it counters it, the fact is it gives marines enough awareness that the advantages given by such upgrades are negated. This is a counter in my books...has the dictionary definition changed?
Celerity and carapace may weaken that counter, but thats all they do <b>weaken a counter</b>.
The point here that was being made is that celerity and carapace, and silence even, don't give a permenant advantage to aliens, because that advantage is negated all too easily by MT...and so adjustments needed to be made to the original posters post.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited September 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--niaccurshi+Sep 1 2003, 05:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (niaccurshi @ Sep 1 2003, 05:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The point here that was being made is that celerity and carapace, and silence even, don't give a permenant advantage to aliens, because that advantage is negated all too easily by MT...and so adjustments needed to be made to the original posters post.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> My point is that the advantages provided by carapace and celerity are <b>not</b> negated by motion tracking, because, even after the marines get motion tracking, having celerity or carapace will still increase your effectiveness.
The anti-MT benefit is only given when you're around a sensory chamber. And that would require a gorge to be pouring hundreds of res into dumping SCs everywhere. Cloaking in and of itself doesn't counter MT at all. First of all, when you stop moving, the circle shows up for <b>4</b> seconds longer, telling marines right where you are. So even if you are cloaked, they still know you're there. Secondly, you can't move with cloaking in 2.0, so no DUH it counters MT to a degree: MOTION TRACKING REQUIRES YOU TO MOVE, NOW DON'T IT?
<!--QuoteBegin--a civilian+Sep 1 2003, 10:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a civilian @ Sep 1 2003, 10:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> My point is that the advantages provided by carapace and celerity are <b>not</b> negated by motion tracking, because, even after the marines get motion tracking, having celerity or carapace will still increase your effectiveness. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> An effectiveness that more often than not you will not be able to take advantage of because of the presence of MT!
The anti-MT benefit is only given when you're around a sensory chamber. And that would require a gorge to be pouring hundreds of res into dumping SCs everywhere. Cloaking in and of itself doesn't counter MT at all. First of all, when you stop moving, the circle shows up for <b>4</b> seconds longer, telling marines right where you are. So even if you are cloaked, they still know you're there. Secondly, you can't move with cloaking in 2.0, so no DUH it counters MT to a degree: MOTION TRACKING REQUIRES YOU TO MOVE, NOW DON'T IT? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> SC's cloak you and in the process hide you from MT blips...no 4 second stop so they know you're there.
And it's not "hundreds" at all. I just played a game where (including the gorge evolution) I spent 60 res on sensories, and as such made it so that a skulk can run ANY ROUTE from data core or archiving, in Hera, all the way through holoroom. Another gorge had laid out enough so that you could move from vent to reception.
Now...for probably about 100 res all told of SC's, and a pretty good cover of anti-mt sensory chambers...isn't that pretty good value to mean that your skulks can run around 75% of the map without ever been tracked by anything but sound? 100 res of DC will probably mean two hives protected by a total of 6 DC's, and two outposts protected by double DC's so they can heal each other.
100 Res of movement chambers is almost unheard of..and as such are the best value for use chamber around.
Cant really tell wether or not you're being sarcastic and anti-sc or not though tbh <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
100 res of movements unheard of? MCs can boost energy quite well when placed smartly and that definitely helps when taking some random place, though it can be hard to still be in the movement's range.
100 res of sensory at hive one is quite some waste and at hive two you would probably need def upgrades and movement upgrades.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--QuoteBegin--niaccurshi+Sep 1 2003, 05:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (niaccurshi @ Sep 1 2003, 05:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->An effectiveness that more often than not you will not be able to take advantage of because of the presence of MT!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, you will always be able to take advantage of it, because, as I said, having carapace or celerity will increase your chances of winning against a prepared marine.
Comments
MC gives silence, adrenaline and celerity. So I guess you'd consider it decent.
There's been a lot of people talking about the vaunted sensory network, but it's impractical. On most servers, you get a few temp Gorges and maybe 2 dedicated Gorges if you're lucky. Temp Gorges usually just drop a hive, RT or the three chambers at the hive for upgrades, so you now put the network burden on the two dedicated Gorges. Considering they also have to make RTs, heal stations, OC walls, bilebomb and be the heal monkey for anybody who runs up to them, they don't have the time or resources for a proper network. A sensory here and there maybe, but nothing to write home about.
Cloaking involves camping. That means you have to remain motionless (I'm talking upgrade, not chamber cloak). If you remain motionless with silence, marines can't pick you up on MT <i>or</i> hear you. In 2.01d you can cloak walk, but speed is life for Lerks, Skulks and Fades.
Lots of people seem to downplay the ability to teleport between hives. While it's not as impressive as phase gates, it's very useful for traveling to hotspots or a hive that's under attack.
As of 2.01d, I'd say that the chambers are pretty balanced for the early game. Fades and Onos still benefit more from MC/DC though.
Actually, this is the exact reason I've started to go S/M/D
Yeah, it seems to make the games longer and harder to win for aliens, but it really stuffs up the res-hoarders.
Them: "Agh! My Onos is useless without regen/redempt. Who's the noob gorge?"
Me: "What the heck are you doing with 100 res 6 minutes into the game anyway? Go drop the second hive or some res-towers so the rest of us can evolve."
It just doesn't work like that, you can't turn it on its head. The chambers give an advantage to aliens, and the the motion tracking takes from it. No matter how fast you are, or how many more bullets you can take, it doesn't negate the fact the marines been tracking you from 30 meters away and has moved himself into a prime position to kill you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->sensory doesn't really HELP at ALL.
the only thing it does is allows you to do cool eyecandy stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If that is what you think I suggest you read this thread, a lot of people have given very well thought out views and opinions on what SC's can do for an alien team without you making generalised and unthoughtful comments like this <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But how can sens help deny res nodes?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How can MC or DC "deny" res nodes? DC certainly can't, it can heal them if the aliens manage to stave off an attack. MC does absolutely nothing to help save or deny res nodes, other than if a gorge is around perhaps. SC however cloaks RT's (not so useful) but also OC nests that marines can walk into without even realising...they can also allow aliens to clear out attacks on res points as good as DC or MC.
Overall SC is the best chamber for denying any area to the marines.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There's been a lot of people talking about the vaunted sensory network, but it's impractical. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It really does depend on the team. I'm usually a perma-gorge, and if the whole team has capped res, I don't need to, and I can start making a network...another gorge will at some point SC up other places, and I can work from that.
In other games gorges don't help out and people res hoard without actually capping res towers...SC's problem is much more rooted to how well the team works, as you've said really.
-Lee
Sensory helps a lot if you know what your doing with it. Set up ambushes in choke points, continously harass denying them res nodes and at the same time you are getting so much res for kills you can make chambers,hives,nodes at a much faster pace. The comm can scan every now and then but its very limited in countering over a long period of time. The only time sensory would not work is if you can not get kills off of it. That would be a very sad case if so.
If you want to prove me wrong, drop an IP. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed.
But how can sens help deny res nodes? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sensory helps deny nodes simple. Either sit cloaked near their nearest RTs or get them in different spots as they come out of their base. Keeping them busy even for a few mins is a big advantage. They get no res, while you gain.
Sorry, sensory for res hoarders, you having a laugh? The only people that actually really hate sensory first are those that are looking to go fade, onos or sometimes lerk...the same people that hoard res and play for frags more than owt else....so how can you make the above statement (assuming I'm reading it right).
-Lee <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, exactly, movement chambers really help out the res hoarders the most, while sc helps out the gorges the most. Seriously, what the hell is a gorge going to do with movements "best" "godlike" upgrade, silence? Stalk the marines down and health spray them to death? (sounds like fun though <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ) And if your onos 8 minutes into the game there's a big problem there, I mean really, you should only be going onos by the time the second hive goes up or if you're losing badly. And sens even helps out skulks and lerks more then mc does. Silence with a skulk is good but there's that radar bug, I've gotten lots of skulk kills by watching my radar, it's pretty obvious when the big red icon shows up behind you that you should turn around and fire. And with lerks adrenaline is nice but it's awesome to be able to see the marines through the wall, jump out spray quick, <u><i>accurate</i></u> shots at them, less chance of dying and wasting that 30 res too.
Edit* Ugg, wrong quote, o well, it works. *Edit
Similarly, motion tracking gives an advantage to the marines, and the chamber upgrades take away from that advantage. No matter how well you prepare for him, it doesn't negate the fact that he is stronger or faster. So you could say they counter each other, or you could say neither counters the other.
<!--QuoteBegin--DarkDude+Sep 1 2003, 03:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkDude @ Sep 1 2003, 03:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Seriously, what the hell is a gorge going to do with movements "best" "godlike" upgrade, silence?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The movement chamber provides other upgrades as well. Celerity is my favorite upgrade when battlegorging.
If your whole team is Gorge dropping chambers at the start, then they have 0 res and have to wait longer to evolve into a lifeform. In the times that I have saved my res I have went Onos and been a big help to the team. Usually I go Gorge and drop a chamber though. But this is beside the point.
I'll just repeat my point I made before. SC only becomes viable if you have large networks, due to the speed of the res you get in the early game and temp Gorges, you will not have a good network. If you want to build a large network then you don't have enough res for hives, OCs or res points. With the other chambers it's drop and go. With all the talk of, "it's good on paper not in reality," I have yet to see an effective network of SCs with the first hive.
If you are talking about defending res points with SC then that's just useless. For that to be good you would have to have a Skulk camping each res point. With DC or MC you can get to a res point and take them out using celerity or carapace.
If most of you are agreeing that SC makes for a harder game in a lockdown then why is it good? I personally get really annoyed that a base that could be taken down in 5 minutes would take 15 minutes to get taken down with SC. I'm partially impatient and in those 10 minutes I'm cheated of fun.
If the team agrees to build SC then I have no problem with that. However... If it is placed without asking I get seriously annoyed.
My last point, I made in another post. Flayra said that aliens are winning 9/10 clan games so they most be imbalanced. In a clan game I would seriously doubt an SC getting dropped first, it would either be MC or DC. So doesn't this mean they are not balanced?
I hope that made sense, I am tired <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Lol, or more acurrately, you could say that motion tracking still holds a big advantage over any evolution DC or MC gives, and so is the greater counter, and as such the upgrades can't be seen as counters to motion tracking...because they don't stop it...they just make marines work a little harder...with an emphasis on little.
To counter something is to stop its effects from giving benefit. MT stops your benefit of speed because you can see them coming, and the same with carapace...you know they're coming and can shoot them for longer with the more bullets needed.
Carapace doesn't counter MT because it *doesn't* stop the marine from seeing the alien...this goes for silence and celerity too.
The case of "if the aliens are behind the marine" doesn't matter either, because MT isn't a part of that process either.
-Lee
Sorry, sensory for res hoarders, you having a laugh? The only people that actually really hate sensory first are those that are looking to go fade, onos or sometimes lerk...the same people that hoard res and play for frags more than owt else....so how can you make the above statement (assuming I'm reading it right).
-Lee <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You read it wrong by taking it out of context. It was a reply to another post.
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sorry, sensory for res hoarders, you having a laugh? The only people that actually really hate sensory first are those that are looking to go fade, onos or sometimes lerk...the same people that hoard res and play for frags more than owt else....so how can you make the above statement (assuming I'm reading it right).
-Lee <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You read it wrong by taking it out of context. It was a reply to another post.
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough, my mistake <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> must have read it wrong <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee
MT counters silence to a degree, celerity a lot, redemption to a degree and carapace a lot.
By letting the marines know where the aliens are regardless of these upgrades, the aliens will lose the advantages given to them 9 times out of 10 thanks to the marines being aware of their presence.
It doesn't counter Adrenaline or Regen really, but it does counter Cloaking, though most aliens now wise up to the fact if they want cloaking then they get a gorge to build a SC nearby.
-Lee
To counter something is to stop its effects from giving benefit. MT stops your benefit of speed because you can see them coming, and the same with carapace...you know they're coming and can shoot them for longer with the more bullets needed.
Carapace doesn't counter MT because it *doesn't* stop the marine from seeing the alien...this goes for silence and celerity too.
The case of "if the aliens are behind the marine" doesn't matter either, because MT isn't a part of that process either.
-Lee<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But motion tracking does not stop carapace or celerity from giving benefits. Motion tracking simply gives the marines an advantage over all uncloaked aliens, regardless of whether or not they have carapace or celerity. Carapace and celerity actually <b>reduce</b> that advantage by increasing the likelihood that the alien will win an encounter with a prepared marine. However, carapace and celerity do not counter motion tracking any more than motion tracking counters them, because, like motion tracking, they provide an advantage against all marines, regardless of whether they have motion tracking, and motion tracking reduces that advantage.
Celerity and carapace may weaken that counter, but thats all they do <b>weaken a counter</b>.
The point here that was being made is that celerity and carapace, and silence even, don't give a permenant advantage to aliens, because that advantage is negated all too easily by MT...and so adjustments needed to be made to the original posters post.
-Lee
My point is that the advantages provided by carapace and celerity are <b>not</b> negated by motion tracking, because, even after the marines get motion tracking, having celerity or carapace will still increase your effectiveness.
The anti-MT benefit is only given when you're around a sensory chamber. And that would require a gorge to be pouring hundreds of res into dumping SCs everywhere. Cloaking in and of itself doesn't counter MT at all. First of all, when you stop moving, the circle shows up for <b>4</b> seconds longer, telling marines right where you are. So even if you are cloaked, they still know you're there. Secondly, you can't move with cloaking in 2.0, so no DUH it counters MT to a degree: MOTION TRACKING REQUIRES YOU TO MOVE, NOW DON'T IT?
An effectiveness that more often than not you will not be able to take advantage of because of the presence of MT!
-Lee
The anti-MT benefit is only given when you're around a sensory chamber. And that would require a gorge to be pouring hundreds of res into dumping SCs everywhere. Cloaking in and of itself doesn't counter MT at all. First of all, when you stop moving, the circle shows up for <b>4</b> seconds longer, telling marines right where you are. So even if you are cloaked, they still know you're there. Secondly, you can't move with cloaking in 2.0, so no DUH it counters MT to a degree: MOTION TRACKING REQUIRES YOU TO MOVE, NOW DON'T IT? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
SC's cloak you and in the process hide you from MT blips...no 4 second stop so they know you're there.
And it's not "hundreds" at all. I just played a game where (including the gorge evolution) I spent 60 res on sensories, and as such made it so that a skulk can run ANY ROUTE from data core or archiving, in Hera, all the way through holoroom. Another gorge had laid out enough so that you could move from vent to reception.
Now...for probably about 100 res all told of SC's, and a pretty good cover of anti-mt sensory chambers...isn't that pretty good value to mean that your skulks can run around 75% of the map without ever been tracked by anything but sound? 100 res of DC will probably mean two hives protected by a total of 6 DC's, and two outposts protected by double DC's so they can heal each other.
100 Res of movement chambers is almost unheard of..and as such are the best value for use chamber around.
Cant really tell wether or not you're being sarcastic and anti-sc or not though tbh <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee
100 res of sensory at hive one is quite some waste and at hive two you would probably need def upgrades and movement upgrades.
No, you will always be able to take advantage of it, because, as I said, having carapace or celerity will increase your chances of winning against a prepared marine.