one of the main probs and its normaly due to marines fault is the entrance to engine hive. the bit with the door swinging up and the entrance to the buggered vent. if they get that bit early on it gives easy access to engine and stops the aliens comming in vent. all u need is that bit and double res. then u have 2 hives right near u. secure them and u just have to assault refine, unless they dont have refine. then u could kill em if u tech fast.
judging how good bast is by the ammount of player on is abit stupid. every time a server starts, restarts or crashes u get bast unless their list aint default.
<!--QuoteBegin--Teflon+Sep 1 2003, 07:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Teflon @ Sep 1 2003, 07:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Xzilen+Sep 1 2003, 05:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Xzilen @ Sep 1 2003, 05:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How about I'm begging people like you to stop posting this crap?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Strike 1 - Your 'crap' stinks more then anyone elses here.
<!--QuoteBegin--Xzilen+Sep 1 2003, 05:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Xzilen @ Sep 1 2003, 05:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--[USCM]Lieutenant Ripley+Sep 1 2003, 05:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([USCM]Lieutenant Ripley @ Sep 1 2003, 05:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's not really an small segment of the playbase. LOOK AT THE SERVER STATS. NOBODY wants to play bast...hell I've downloaded missile silo and it's more fun. If the designer "left" the community, then that's an easy call to make. Give an ACTIVE AMATEUR a shot. What's the worst that could happen, oh yeah we'd all be playing an ugly questionably balanced buggy map that empties servers when it comes into rotation...wait, that's what Bast IS <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay.
SHUTUP!
Lets see you put together a map like that, THE first map for a mod, and make it look better you jerk.
That map is VERY nice looking, and a LOT of fun to play on ocassion. MANY, MANY people DO enjoy the map, quite a few of whom play on my server thank you very much.
Strike 2 - Good for you. Every time the map changes to Bast on Lunixmonster, people will literally say: "Ugh, GG aliens". In fact, I'm wiling to bet more people dislike Bast then like it. BTW: Was that "A few of whom play on my server" comment necessary? Are we supposed to care? If you run your server like you post here, what? 80% of the nubs who get suckered in like it?
<!--QuoteBegin--Xzilen+Sep 1 2003, 07:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Xzilen @ Sep 1 2003, 07:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--||SemperFi||+Sep 1 2003, 06:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (||SemperFi|| @ Sep 1 2003, 06:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ok so far Ive either seen people agreeing with me or people using the broken logic of "Hey if you cant make a better map shutup!" Well guess what, I dont need to be a famous director to know when I like a movie or dont. This isnt a whining post its just a post begging admins to take the server away. All it does is empty them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Our broken sayings?
Tell me the constant crying about GREAT maps like bast isn't broken?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So far everyone 'constantly crying' about Bast has shown <b>infinitely</b> more intelligence, logic, and purpose then you.
Strike 3 - How about <b>you</b> go away instead? So far 75% of your posts in this thread are unconstructive, inflammatory, opinionated, baseless trash you spewed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wonderful! Than bring this up to the server admins there, don't come flaming this map here.
And how are they showing such intelligence? By bringing up the ages old crying about "OMG Bast is the suck!"
There are just as many people who like it, this board is not made to just come in and tell people that they should take maps out of rotation.
As for the last part, thats sad, seeing as how all bring up exactly the same thing. Marine start namely. Get over it. There are ways around it, and frankly, many of you are sickening for not looking beyond that. You do know you can build OUT of the reach of the vent from being bilebombed, right? Good, thought you did, now duct tape your mouth shut and head on back to your little world.
Would have posted this earlier, but the internet died here at College.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And how are they showing such intelligence? By bringing up the ages old crying about "OMG Bast is the suck!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I dont recall ever saying Bast outright "sucked" I offered, what I thought, was fairly constructive criticism. I brought up several problems I have with the map in a polite and respectful manner. Please do not degrade this thread into a flame war.
I think Bast is great. In 2.01d, Aliens and Marines are pretty evenly matched in my honest opinion. Actually I've seen a few more marine wins than aliens believe it or not. If we're talking about basic 2.0, then of course it's unbalanced for the aliens, just like every other damn map out there.
When playing bast, there are a few key locations that you need to keep in mind. You should preferably hold at least one of these.
1. Main Aft - Cuts of access to engine, easily defendible, 3 way choke point. 2. Tram Tunnel - Very easy to defend (long tunnel), 2 RTs 3. Water Treatment - Only place you can succesfully assault Refinery, easy to defend (especially with CC walls)
There are other important areas, but most of the time they're not worth building in, since these choke points cut off a good portion of the map. Try it next time you go comm on Bast.
<!--QuoteBegin--Keyser59+Sep 1 2003, 10:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Keyser59 @ Sep 1 2003, 10:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If we're talking about basic 2.0, then of course it's unbalanced for the aliens, just like every other damn map out there. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I was refering to 2.01d.
I find it odd that Bast is taking such a beating here. We did a map vote to see which map our players liked least (to decide if to replace one of the standard maps with a custom map we had been running) and of the official maps Hera and Lost were least popular. Bast did not have a single vote against it. I find it visually superb, some aspects are annoying but if were all roses it would hardly make for a good fight would it?
Anyway I don't want to give my opinions, you have opinions of your own that are far more important to you than mine so I'll just post the balance and play stats of a few maps on our server.
(Didn't read whole post, just the first page) But I used a program before where it takes an already made map and makes it so that you can customize it/do whatever you want to do.
Takes it from .bsp form and puts it into WorldCraft files to work on it. You can try to find one of those converters if anybody wants to fix it. (Preferably a person in the NS team)
I dont like playing on bast, even though I love the map, and the reason is simple and has already been stated in this thread. The "weldable" vent in marine start is ridiculously biased (I guess you could say) towards aliens. I cant tell you how easy it is for me to close or open the "welded vent" as a lerk and just spore spam the marine base, racking up kill after kill, as the marines try hopelessly to shoot through that little slit to kill me. Someone coming up behind me? EASY! Open the "welded vent" and simply fly strait out and down the elevator shaft, and youre out before anyone has time to react. rinse and repeat, or something like that....
If the vent was not changed from its 1.04 state, all would be good with Bast...
So, does anyone know exactly WHY the vent was changed in the first place? Was there something so horribly wrong with the old vent that it just had to be changed, or the map would be scraped? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
edited for clarity, even though its probably not much clearer than it was <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Teflon+Sep 1 2003, 02:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Teflon @ Sep 1 2003, 02:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why'd he quit? Too many people hated his map? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe it was because of a certain number of people bashing it, and even I couldn't handle that if I put that much work into a map. I believe the map is very good, except for the Marine Start vent. I think the old Bast's vent was fine, don't know why he changed it, but it's done.
Note: The weld point is usually on the FAR END of the Marine Start (e.g. Old bast, you had to take the elevator, Sewer, you have to go all the way out to Upper Sewer, Eclipse, you have to go to HorseShoe, etc), so you can't just drop a welder and easily close that part off.
Having the ability to block that vent or moving the comm char to the other end would be good for the marines but really bast is a nice map and plays as well as any of the others. When 2.0 gets better balanced bast will get better balanced. It just requires you think about things like that vent when you play.
It is sorry to hear that we lost the mapper and quite sickening to see so many people bashing his work.
Bast is generally a good map, my main probelm with it is the vent which can't be welded shut and allows aliens to bile bomb the marines main base, I really can't understand how that made it into the 2.0 release!
If that vent was fixed then the map wouldnt be too bad, engine room needs moving further away from mstart if possible too.
imo some reasons that put Bast behind some maps like Veil or Eclipse: o Circular marine flow: look at the possibilities a marine group can walk to, it makes a big circle (Marine Start -> Atmos -> Feed -> Tram tunnel -> Refinery -> Water Treatment -> Main Aft -> Marine Start) with very few choices, actually only 2 <b>all</b> in main aft: one to go to Databank others to go to Engine. This "circular" game flow makes all marines moves very easy to foresee as aliens. No other maps have this circular design.
o Some areas are extremely hard to move in, again as marines. Databank access is small; Steam Generation (the room outside feedwater) is the most cramped room in all NS maps all marines movement are hard; the rotating elevator in main aft is delaying marines movement a lot. Entrances to feedwater are either a very small corridor or a big ladder.
o Everyone talked about Marine Start vent...
Otherwise Bast has some great lighting and mood. There can be some very unique game on Bast, but overall its architecture is killing the marines main hope to win.
<!--QuoteBegin--eaglec+Sep 1 2003, 11:49 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eaglec @ Sep 1 2003, 11:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It is sorry to hear that we lost the mapper and quite sickening to see so many people bashing his work. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Honestly if he cant take criticism he shouldnt be mapping.
<!--QuoteBegin--||SemperFi||+Sep 2 2003, 05:26 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (||SemperFi|| @ Sep 2 2003, 05:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--eaglec+Sep 1 2003, 11:49 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eaglec @ Sep 1 2003, 11:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It is sorry to hear that we lost the mapper and quite sickening to see so many people bashing his work. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Honestly if he cant take criticism he shouldnt be mapping. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There is a difference between contructively criticizing and flame grilled.
Bast is a great map, much in the same way Hera is a great map. I enjoy games on these maps immensely....as long as we relocate as marines.
Bast and Hera (and the old Caged) marine starts are prime examples of a very strange tendancy amongst mappers. That is, to make marine starts strategically biased against the marines. To quote the mapping guidelines:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The marine base is where the command station is located. There should be at least two exits leading out of the base and <b>it should be relatively defensible. There should be no alien only routes into this area unless they can be secured relatively early in the game</b>. The area should be well lit and should have space to allow the commander to build a base. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now say you're a TSA commander told to clear out station Hera of alien infestation. You survey the plans. Now if chose the marine start as a place to set up shop you deserve to be fired. Out of a cannon. Into the sun.
Marine starts should be bastions that are much easier for the marines to defend than other sections of the map. They should be alien-hostile areas, where the aliens would not want to set up a base in. The marines should be able to spawn in and say "This place is good, not hard to defend." <b>A marine side should never ever be able to relocate to a more easily defendable position</b>. The most marine friendly spot on a map should be the marine start.
Now in some maps that holds true. But in Bast or Hera it doesn't. Now this can be easily fixed with some simply work. Like I've said, Bast and Hera are amazing maps that I greatly enjoy. But why make marine starts locations that the marines immediatly want to get away from? We've been playing NS for almost a year now, and we marine players know a death trap when we see one. That's why we relocate on Bast and Hera.
I'm with alot of peaple, Bast would be a great map in my book if they would just address the vent issue. Hell, just moving it further away from the CC would be cool.
Bast offers some unique strats from the Marine side as well. If you don't mind doing a little vent hopping, you can find some rather interesting places to siege from. I'll never forget the day a savey JP'r and his commander set up a siege farm in one of the vents near Engine and wiped it clean <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Only other thing I don't like about Bast, is it's hard to get around in alot of places if you're an Ohnos. Place is not very cow friendly.
Otherwise, I love the map. Great atmosphere, wonderful dark corners for a skulk to hide in, plenty of alternate routes to various parts of the map if you don't mind vent hopping.... Just fix that vent and I'd be 100 percent happy with it.
bast and hera are good maps apart from silly things happened to them in 2.0. well the vent in bast and the outside bit at marines spawn on hera which is basicly lerk heaven.
bast though with outposts in the right areas u can hold alot of res and at least 1 hive easy. marines just need to tech fast and drop those hand cannons they call shottys.
Bast not a good map for marines? Are you crazy? Lets bring up some points why bast is a good marine map.
1) 2 Double res points. The one we all know and feedwater. Down the ladder is a 2. res that is extremly easy to hold because of the long tram tunnel the onos have to enter. If the marines secure the tram tunnel they can effectivley deny the aliens feedwater. and the tram tunnel can be reached directly from the marine base due to the 2 vents by the elevator.
2.)2 hives can be directly reached and sieged from the vents. How much other maps you know where you can do such a thing?
3.) you can siege half of the engine room from your base before sending in your troops.
4.)Apart from the vent in the marine base its very difficult as an alien to rush the marine spawn due to the elevator and the door. And a gl takes care of the vent.
5.) Feedwater and refinery are connected by an underwater passage that makes surprise attacks on refinery very easy since it is almost never guarded. A lot of times refinery goes down because some ha´s took that passage and made a siege outpost in the green hallway.
The marine start needs to get rid of that vent, or have it actually STAY welded. The elevator to the comm chair also needs to go.
The rotating airlock always seemed kinda sloppy to me. I like the concept but the execution is a little flawed, and that's probably an engine limitation. Something else could be done here.
Refinery needs less open space.
Everything else is pretty solid. I like Bast <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
As for why mappers made their marine starts in certain places (Bast, Hera), take a look at the overall design of the map. They were trying to go with a theme. In Bast, the Marine Start is a landing bay for a ship. Their dropship, presumably. In Hera, it is the landing pad/entry to the station, where ships land and shuttle their cargo into the installation. So these Marine Starts make sense in terms of the map being a functioning place with an "Entrance" for arriving 'rines. Unfortunately, they're also plagued by some wonky vent designs that make the MS a very hostile place to be. Relocate, relocate, relocate.
After losing Nancy, Losing Bast would rub salt in the wound. Bast is such a classic map it should never be taken out and as the first map i played NS on it holds memories <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> But seriously i Bast were taken out of the map cycle that would mean having to play the awful awful minshaft more. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
The only problem I have with the vent in 2.0 is that it should stay shut, and that little slot in the bottom shouldn't be there. Aliens can still spore/spike/acidrocket/bilebomb though the vent due to that little slot.
<!--QuoteBegin--Jaml+Sep 2 2003, 09:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jaml @ Sep 2 2003, 09:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 2. res that is extremly easy to hold because of the long tram tunnel the onos have to enter. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Im just not even going to read the rest of your post since its quite obvious you dont know what a vent + bile bomb means.
<!--QuoteBegin--||SemperFi||+Sep 2 2003, 12:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (||SemperFi|| @ Sep 2 2003, 12:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Jaml+Sep 2 2003, 09:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jaml @ Sep 2 2003, 09:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 2. res that is extremly easy to hold because of the long tram tunnel the onos have to enter. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Im just not even going to read the rest of your post since its quite obvious you dont know what a vent + bile bomb means. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> The only vent in Tram Tunnel is smack in the middle of the tunnel, in the ceiling, and it's a short drop. The only way you can bilebomb is if the marines build a base RIGHT BELOW YOU.
<!--QuoteBegin--Teflon+Sep 2 2003, 12:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Teflon @ Sep 2 2003, 12:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> The only vent in Tram Tunnel is smack in the middle of the tunnel, in the ceiling, and it's a short drop. The only way you can bilebomb is if the marines build a base RIGHT BELOW YOU. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> He said the second res next to feed water. There is a vent RIGHT next to it. All they need is one skulk to gorge in that vent and you lose your res.
<!--QuoteBegin--||SemperFi||+Sep 2 2003, 12:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (||SemperFi|| @ Sep 2 2003, 12:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Teflon+Sep 2 2003, 12:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Teflon @ Sep 2 2003, 12:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> The only vent in Tram Tunnel is smack in the middle of the tunnel, in the ceiling, and it's a short drop. The only way you can bilebomb is if the marines build a base RIGHT BELOW YOU. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> He said the second res next to feed water. There is a vent RIGHT next to it. All they need is one skulk to gorge in that vent and you lose your res. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Feedwater has the res node right IN the hive... which only has the ladder down to tram tunnel, and out into the furnace room... and the water. Then there's the node at the bottom of the ladder.
UNless there's a vent there I've never noticed <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well if it hasn't changed since 1.04 there is one there. And marines can go up by some invisible ladder that's there. It's right opposite to the ladder/way up to feedwater and can be accessed from steam gen, going up before getting to atmos and turning at your first right.
Hmm much like the dark, mysterious vent on ns_veil in the (Pipeline hive? They all look exactly the same...) ceiling of one of the hives. I've only gotten in there once and it was more effective to just go the long way <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
judging how good bast is by the ammount of player on is abit stupid. every time a server starts, restarts or crashes u get bast unless their list aint default.
Strike 1 - Your 'crap' stinks more then anyone elses here.
<!--QuoteBegin--Xzilen+Sep 1 2003, 05:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Xzilen @ Sep 1 2003, 05:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--[USCM]Lieutenant Ripley+Sep 1 2003, 05:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([USCM]Lieutenant Ripley @ Sep 1 2003, 05:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's not really an small segment of the playbase. LOOK AT THE SERVER STATS. NOBODY wants to play bast...hell I've downloaded missile silo and it's more fun. If the designer "left" the community, then that's an easy call to make. Give an ACTIVE AMATEUR a shot. What's the worst that could happen, oh yeah we'd all be playing an ugly questionably balanced buggy map that empties servers when it comes into rotation...wait, that's what Bast IS <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay.
SHUTUP!
Lets see you put together a map like that, THE first map for a mod, and make it look better you jerk.
That map is VERY nice looking, and a LOT of fun to play on ocassion. MANY, MANY people DO enjoy the map, quite a few of whom play on my server thank you very much.
Go. Away.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Strike 2 - Good for you. Every time the map changes to Bast on Lunixmonster, people will literally say: "Ugh, GG aliens". In fact, I'm wiling to bet more people dislike Bast then like it. BTW: Was that "A few of whom play on my server" comment necessary? Are we supposed to care? If you run your server like you post here, what? 80% of the nubs who get suckered in like it?
<!--QuoteBegin--Xzilen+Sep 1 2003, 07:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Xzilen @ Sep 1 2003, 07:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--||SemperFi||+Sep 1 2003, 06:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (||SemperFi|| @ Sep 1 2003, 06:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ok so far Ive either seen people agreeing with me or people using the broken logic of "Hey if you cant make a better map shutup!" Well guess what, I dont need to be a famous director to know when I like a movie or dont. This isnt a whining post its just a post begging admins to take the server away. All it does is empty them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Our broken sayings?
Tell me the constant crying about GREAT maps like bast isn't broken?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So far everyone 'constantly crying' about Bast has shown <b>infinitely</b> more intelligence, logic, and purpose then you.
Strike 3 - How about <b>you</b> go away instead? So far 75% of your posts in this thread are unconstructive, inflammatory, opinionated, baseless trash you spewed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wonderful! Than bring this up to the server admins there, don't come flaming this map here.
And how are they showing such intelligence? By bringing up the ages old crying about "OMG Bast is the suck!"
There are just as many people who like it, this board is not made to just come in and tell people that they should take maps out of rotation.
As for the last part, thats sad, seeing as how all bring up exactly the same thing. Marine start namely. Get over it. There are ways around it, and frankly, many of you are sickening for not looking beyond that. You do know you can build OUT of the reach of the vent from being bilebombed, right? Good, thought you did, now duct tape your mouth shut and head on back to your little world.
Would have posted this earlier, but the internet died here at College.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And how are they showing such intelligence? By bringing up the ages old crying about "OMG Bast is the suck!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont recall ever saying Bast outright "sucked" I offered, what I thought, was fairly constructive criticism. I brought up several problems I have with the map in a polite and respectful manner. Please do not degrade this thread into a flame war.
When playing bast, there are a few key locations that you need to keep in mind. You should preferably hold at least one of these.
1. Main Aft - Cuts of access to engine, easily defendible, 3 way choke point.
2. Tram Tunnel - Very easy to defend (long tunnel), 2 RTs
3. Water Treatment - Only place you can succesfully assault Refinery, easy to defend (especially with CC walls)
There are other important areas, but most of the time they're not worth building in, since these choke points cut off a good portion of the map. Try it next time you go comm on Bast.
I was refering to 2.01d.
Anyway I don't want to give my opinions, you have opinions of your own that are far more important to you than mine so I'll just post the balance and play stats of a few maps on our server.
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->
MAP NAME - - - ROUNDS PLAYED - - - MARINE WIN %
Caged 95 17%
Eclipse 113 19%
Hera 100 12%
Mineshaft 102 22%
Veil 92 20%
Nothing 98 21%
Bast 107 17%
Tanith 111 17%
Lost 109 11%
Origin 83 28%
Hydrosity 32 34%
<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
So what does this prove? Nothing, absolutely nothing and it does it quite well don't you think?
But I used a program before where it takes an already made map and makes it so that you can customize it/do whatever you want to do.
Takes it from .bsp form and puts it into WorldCraft files to work on it. You can try to find one of those converters if anybody wants to fix it. (Preferably a person in the NS team)
If the vent was not changed from its 1.04 state, all would be good with Bast...
So, does anyone know exactly WHY the vent was changed in the first place? Was there something so horribly wrong with the old vent that it just had to be changed, or the map would be scraped? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
edited for clarity, even though its probably not much clearer than it was <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I believe it was because of a certain number of people bashing it, and even I couldn't handle that if I put that much work into a map.
I believe the map is very good, except for the Marine Start vent. I think the old Bast's vent was fine, don't know why he changed it, but it's done.
Note: The weld point is usually on the FAR END of the Marine Start (e.g. Old bast, you had to take the elevator, Sewer, you have to go all the way out to Upper Sewer, Eclipse, you have to go to HorseShoe, etc), so you can't just drop a welder and easily close that part off.
It is sorry to hear that we lost the mapper and quite sickening to see so many people bashing his work.
If that vent was fixed then the map wouldnt be too bad, engine room needs moving further away from mstart if possible too.
o Circular marine flow: look at the possibilities a marine group can walk to, it makes a big circle (Marine Start -> Atmos -> Feed -> Tram tunnel -> Refinery -> Water Treatment -> Main Aft -> Marine Start) with very few choices, actually only 2 <b>all</b> in main aft: one to go to Databank others to go to Engine. This "circular" game flow makes all marines moves very easy to foresee as aliens. No other maps have this circular design.
o Some areas are extremely hard to move in, again as marines. Databank access is small; Steam Generation (the room outside feedwater) is the most cramped room in all NS maps all marines movement are hard; the rotating elevator in main aft is delaying marines movement a lot. Entrances to feedwater are either a very small corridor or a big ladder.
o Everyone talked about Marine Start vent...
Otherwise Bast has some great lighting and mood. There can be some very unique game on Bast, but overall its architecture is killing the marines main hope to win.
Honestly if he cant take criticism he shouldnt be mapping.
Honestly if he cant take criticism he shouldnt be mapping. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a difference between contructively criticizing and flame grilled.
Bast and Hera (and the old Caged) marine starts are prime examples of a very strange tendancy amongst mappers. That is, to make marine starts strategically biased against the marines. To quote the mapping guidelines:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The marine base is where the command station is located. There should be at least two exits leading out of the base and <b>it should be relatively defensible. There should be no alien only routes into this area unless they can be secured relatively early in the game</b>. The area should be well lit and should have space to allow the commander to build a base. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now say you're a TSA commander told to clear out station Hera of alien infestation. You survey the plans. Now if chose the marine start as a place to set up shop you deserve to be fired. Out of a cannon. Into the sun.
Marine starts should be bastions that are much easier for the marines to defend than other sections of the map. They should be alien-hostile areas, where the aliens would not want to set up a base in. The marines should be able to spawn in and say "This place is good, not hard to defend." <b>A marine side should never ever be able to relocate to a more easily defendable position</b>. The most marine friendly spot on a map should be the marine start.
Now in some maps that holds true. But in Bast or Hera it doesn't. Now this can be easily fixed with some simply work. Like I've said, Bast and Hera are amazing maps that I greatly enjoy. But why make marine starts locations that the marines immediatly want to get away from? We've been playing NS for almost a year now, and we marine players know a death trap when we see one. That's why we relocate on Bast and Hera.
Bast offers some unique strats from the Marine side as well. If you don't mind doing a little vent hopping, you can find some rather interesting places to siege from. I'll never forget the day a savey JP'r and his commander set up a siege farm in one of the vents near Engine and wiped it clean <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Only other thing I don't like about Bast, is it's hard to get around in alot of places if you're an Ohnos. Place is not very cow friendly.
Otherwise, I love the map. Great atmosphere, wonderful dark corners for a skulk to hide in, plenty of alternate routes to various parts of the map if you don't mind vent hopping.... Just fix that vent and I'd be 100 percent happy with it.
bast though with outposts in the right areas u can hold alot of res and at least 1 hive easy. marines just need to tech fast and drop those hand cannons they call shottys.
1) 2 Double res points. The one we all know and feedwater. Down the ladder is a 2. res that is extremly easy to hold because of the long tram tunnel the onos have to enter. If the marines secure the tram tunnel they can effectivley deny the aliens feedwater. and the tram tunnel can be reached directly from the marine base due to the 2 vents by the elevator.
2.)2 hives can be directly reached and sieged from the vents. How much other maps you know where you can do such a thing?
3.) you can siege half of the engine room from your base before sending in your troops.
4.)Apart from the vent in the marine base its very difficult as an alien to rush the marine spawn due to the elevator and the door. And a gl takes care of the vent.
5.) Feedwater and refinery are connected by an underwater passage that makes surprise attacks on refinery very easy since it is almost never guarded. A lot of times refinery goes down because some ha´s took that passage and made a siege outpost in the green hallway.
The marine start needs to get rid of that vent, or have it actually STAY welded. The elevator to the comm chair also needs to go.
The rotating airlock always seemed kinda sloppy to me. I like the concept but the execution is a little flawed, and that's probably an engine limitation. Something else could be done here.
Refinery needs less open space.
Everything else is pretty solid. I like Bast <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
As for why mappers made their marine starts in certain places (Bast, Hera), take a look at the overall design of the map. They were trying to go with a theme. In Bast, the Marine Start is a landing bay for a ship. Their dropship, presumably. In Hera, it is the landing pad/entry to the station, where ships land and shuttle their cargo into the installation. So these Marine Starts make sense in terms of the map being a functioning place with an "Entrance" for arriving 'rines. Unfortunately, they're also plagued by some wonky vent designs that make the MS a very hostile place to be. Relocate, relocate, relocate.
But seriously i Bast were taken out of the map cycle that would mean having to play the awful awful minshaft more. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Im just not even going to read the rest of your post since its quite obvious you dont know what a vent + bile bomb means.
Im just not even going to read the rest of your post since its quite obvious you dont know what a vent + bile bomb means. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> The only vent in Tram Tunnel is smack in the middle of the tunnel, in the ceiling, and it's a short drop. The only way you can bilebomb is if the marines build a base RIGHT BELOW YOU.
He said the second res next to feed water. There is a vent RIGHT next to it. All they need is one skulk to gorge in that vent and you lose your res.
He said the second res next to feed water. There is a vent RIGHT next to it. All they need is one skulk to gorge in that vent and you lose your res. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Feedwater has the res node right IN the hive... which only has the ladder down to tram tunnel, and out into the furnace room... and the water. Then there's the node at the bottom of the ladder.
UNless there's a vent there I've never noticed <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->