<!--QuoteBegin--Frikk+Nov 24 2003, 03:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Frikk @ Nov 24 2003, 03:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> [Are you willing to foot the bill for shipping the Wolves to a foreign country/state? It's definatly not going to be cheap.] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I could get another job?
<!--QuoteBegin--DuBERS+Nov 24 2003, 11:03 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DuBERS @ Nov 24 2003, 11:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Frikk+Nov 24 2003, 03:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Frikk @ Nov 24 2003, 03:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> [Are you willing to foot the bill for shipping the Wolves to a foreign country/state? It's definatly not going to be cheap.] <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think the best Solution would be to send all the wolves to a 3rd world country. The ppl could have them for pets, food, defense, or hunt them for sport! Or at the least, the wovles could kill off the 3rd world population instead and only the strong would survive, then the country would be like to wolves, controled. The ppl win, the wovles win, the hunters win, everybody wins. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Ha.ze+Nov 23 2003, 07:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ha.ze @ Nov 23 2003, 07:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> To add onto that mojo, wolfs dont kill to control a population. They kill because they need to eat. I could see us killing a wolf or two IF we needed the meat THAT BAD. But not just to "control population." Thats horrid. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I doubt. How often does a few wolves eat 20 sheep? Those are some darn big wolves then... Or small sheep. The problem with wolves is that they kill animals "for fun". A few times I read from the newspaper that over 15 sheep got killed by wolves. The sheeps meat wasn't eaten, they were just killed.
Note; Natural selection/predator prey relations are seperate from human interference, which is what I was talking about (human interference). If there really is a overpopulation of Wolves, then the prey will die out, the Wolves will lose food, and die out too, meaning there will be more prey, so the remining Wolves thrive, expand.... and so on. There is no need for human interference. I'll admit my previous post was poorly worded which may have caused some misunderstandings. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Er?? yeah, if you are someone like Hitler maybe. (slight sarcasm here, but still serious) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really, Hitler did what he did to humans, and naturally that really annoyed more than a few thousand people.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why is human life THAT much more important than non-human life??
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can see there -might- be a problem, but the methods they are planning to use is just morally wrong, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, they could attack them with sticks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So chasing them down to exhaustion, then killing them is right? er yeah. Nice one. If they were that "concerned about being humane" would they not just shoot them instantly for a clean "killshot"?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wolves feel pain and suffering too, and grieve for their lost family/mates/members - don't call me a liar here because my own cat grieved for one of my other cats when he died - she would sit at the window whining for him. She missed him. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Too an extent this can be seen as grieving but it is impossible to tell in the end exactly what an animal is doing. I have seen domestic animals pine for the other animals that have died, but natural behaviours don't really ascribe evidence to any sort of higher animal intelligence on the matter.<b> Animals aren't really capable of thinking like humans and hence 'grieving'.</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Says who? Who says emotions are limited to humans? Other humans? Hmmm?
I am growing more and more tired of this community being so OMG YOU ARE WRONG NUB YOU ARE A NUB AND MUST DIE. I might be part of the problem because I feel it is getting that bad, but why must we all just go on and on at each other!? Can we not for once just work together?!
@ Majin, I was about to ask you to stop being a nub, but realised that isn't possible <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> j/k
<!--QuoteBegin--Beast+Nov 24 2003, 05:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Beast @ Nov 24 2003, 05:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[...]Why is human life THAT much more important than non-human life??[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> For the same reasons that I care more for members of my own family than for random strangers.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why is human life THAT much more important than non-human life??<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why are wolves THAT much more important than any other hardship story in the world?
Because you evidently like wolves. If you didn't, you wouldn't pay a second glance.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Animals aren't really capable of thinking like humans and hence 'grieving'. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fine then don't apply it to grieving, and lets think of a situation.
You have a dog. This dog has NEVER seen another dog in its life. It was separated from its mother at birth. When you come home, this dog wags its tail at you. It might yip at you, lick you, etc. It is happy. Is it not? This dog, having had no contact with others, has had nothing imposed on it to automatically do it. Its basic emotion. Now not capable of grieving? Good lord. I forget the name of the dog, but its a famous story, of how its owner died, and EVERY day after its owned died until its own death, it would get up, get some food from the local pub, then go lay down on the owner's grave. Tell me thats not grieving?
<!--QuoteBegin--Beast+Nov 24 2003, 11:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Beast @ Nov 24 2003, 11:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> (slight ranty post) So, controlling a population by KILLING them is justifyable? Er?? yeah, if you are someone like Hitler maybe. (slight sarcasm here, but still serious) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Bah... Godwin's Law.
Because you seem to be getting disheartend, it seems like Aegeri and I, with a few others, seem to be the dissenting opinion, while you seem to have the support of most other people. [neeeevermind....]
While I believe that Aegeri isn't giving upper level animals as much credit as they diserve, I believe that saying that Wolves have as much thinking power as we do is laughable. If you have some sort of a source on this, I'd love to see it.
Last I checked Hunters tried their best to shoot-to-kill. Wounding an animal doesn't really do much for them.
Human life is more important because there is undeniable proof that we are sentient, via the fact that I am thinking. I'm human, ergo humans think. It's not a complete proof by any means, but you have nothing like that for wolves, or animals. Closest that we have are dolphins, I believe, and that is still a hotly contested debate.
<!--QuoteBegin--Beast+Nov 24 2003, 11:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Beast @ Nov 24 2003, 11:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Note; Natural selection/predator prey relations are seperate from human interference, which is what I was talking about (human interference). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Except humans are predators, in fact, we're super predators and part of the predator/prey relationship is where we fit in. I believe those animals are both extensively hunted by humans, and also food for other large predators (bears are in the area too, and some other endangered predatory animal that lives there too).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If there really is a overpopulation of Wolves, then the prey will die out, the Wolves will lose food, and die out too, meaning there will be more prey, so the remining Wolves thrive, expand.... and so on. There is no need for human interference. I'll admit my previous post was poorly worded which may have caused some misunderstandings.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which has nothing to do with the point I made.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why is human life THAT much more important than non-human life??<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Simple, human beings are human beings and I happen to be one. It really is that simple, I'm going to preserve my own species over the wide variety of parasites and similar that are around. I'm not going to stop researching vaccines for Tuberculosis because I see some value in it (which of course there is). But it all depends however, killing some wolves isn't going to affect much in Alaska, wiping out the Coral Reef however would have a disasterous effect on an entire ecosystem that would equal mass extinction levels (for those regions).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So chasing them down to exhaustion, then killing them is right? er yeah.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alternatively they can take fire at them while moving and potentially hit utterly ANYTHING around, and then get sued for a massive amount of money.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nice one. If they were that "concerned about being humane" would they not just shoot them instantly for a clean "killshot"?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I imagine they would, unfortunately I think the wolves have other ideas and hanging around one area so they can be shot isn't one of them. It takes a lot of skill to hit anything from a helicopter however, if it was a moving target now THAT would be insanely hard.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Says who? Who says emotions are limited to humans? Other humans? Hmmm?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Says most of the respected Zoologists who have studied animal behaviour and similar. They have diplomas and years of field experience, you, as I'm more than 100% certain, do not. There are many many studies on animal behaviour that are published in every single journal of zoology every month. As a general rule, animals do not think like humans (or in exception cases seem too), but act in a way that best increases their chances of surviving and passing on their genes to the next generation of animal.
I could give you a list if you liked on animal behavioural studies when I go back to the University for my usual reading trip on wednesday.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am growing more and more tired of this community being so OMG YOU ARE WRONG NUB YOU ARE A NUB AND MUST DIE.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't say that, but for background I am a Microbiologist/Zoologist, so I like to think I know what I'm reffering too.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I might be part of the problem because I feel it is getting that bad, but why must we all just go on and on at each other!? Can we not for once just work together?!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, considering I don't really see what you're getting upset about to begin with, it's not a good starting point <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Burncycle <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why are wolves THAT much more important than any other hardship story in the world?
Because you evidently like wolves. If you didn't, you wouldn't pay a second glance. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, nobody cares about the extermination (by fungus!) of frogs, or the white tailed spiders annihilation of the common house spider, or the extermination campaigns against fire ants/german wasps, or the butchering of possums or whatever other undesirable animals are around.
Essentially, you're exactly right Burncycle.
Ottodestruct.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Fine then don't apply it to grieving, and lets think of a situation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One situation, of a domesticated dog and not a wild animal, does not a trend make. You see, I can teach a chimpanzee to paint and speak in sign language. Now does that mean that a chimpanzee is suddenly as creative as picasso or as good a speaker as a politician? No, it means that the animal has learnt from a human things that allow it to do things it would never be capable of normally. This indicates that a chimpanzee really isn't that capable of self thought firstly, and secondly that it isn't really expressing 'human' emotions through it's paintings or similar.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You have a dog. This dog has NEVER seen another dog in its life. It was separated from its mother at birth. When you come home, this dog wags its tail at you. It might yip at you, lick you, etc. It is happy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is technically just a responce of the animal to you coming home, if you consider that you probably bend down and pick it up, pet it whatever, it is merely responding to your particular actions. You're a member of the pack that has run off and now returned, so technically it would be pretty pleased to see you. It's about to get some food afterall. A dog running away after you've shouted at it is no different than what would happen in the wild incidently. It won't stay around and risk being attacked for the same reason it won't do in the wild.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Is it not? This dog, having had no contact with others, has had nothing imposed on it to automatically do it. Its basic emotion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong, it's basic instinct.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now not capable of grieving? Good lord. I forget the name of the dog, but its a famous story, of how its owner died, and EVERY day after its owned died until its own death, it would get up, get some food from the local pub, then go lay down on the owner's grave. Tell me thats not grieving?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like a lovely story to me.
Frikk
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->While I believe that Aegeri isn't giving upper level animals as much credit as they diserve, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh I am actually, just not as much as I would give a human.
I still haven't had an example of animal emotion EXCEPT in cases involving humans.
Someone should seriously control human population. We need a big scale war here. Preferably with melee weapons so we won't destroy our environment and only the fittest would survive.
<!--QuoteBegin--Frikk+Nov 24 2003, 11:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Frikk @ Nov 24 2003, 11:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Because you seem to be getting disheartend, it seems like Aegeri and I, with a few others, seem to be the dissenting opinion, while you seem to have the support of most other people. [neeeevermind....]
While I believe that Aegeri isn't giving upper level animals as much credit as they diserve, I believe that saying that Wolves have as much thinking power as we do is laughable. If you have some sort of a source on this, I'd love to see it.
Last I checked Hunters tried their best to shoot-to-kill. Wounding an animal doesn't really do much for them.
Human life is more important because there is undeniable proof that we are sentient, via the fact that I am thinking. I'm human, ergo humans think. It's not a complete proof by any means, but you have nothing like that for wolves, or animals. Closest that we have are dolphins, I believe, and that is still a hotly contested debate. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not saying wolves or any other animal can do high level theoretical physics, I'm saying they CAN grieve, that it is a basic emotion, which is NOT unique to humans alone.
I haven't read the whole thread, because I'm lazy, but has anyone even provied a source for the quote that started this all off?
Also, since animals such as wolves are often confined to a small space, if you have too many of them they start to suffer due to lack of food or environment. It's the same reason there is a deer season, a feasant season, a turkey season, an alligator season, and any other animal. Because we unnaturally confine animals to the areas outside of our cities and suburbs, we have to unnaturally thin their numbers.
Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> (@ dread)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not saying wolves or any other animal can do high level theoretical physics, I'm saying they CAN grieve, that it is a basic emotion, which is NOT unique to humans alone. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course not, that's why we have physicists <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
However, you haven't given a solid example of an animal in the wild, demonstrating such a behaviour. In relation to humans you've given an animal responding to human emotions and behaviours, but nothing at all from a wild population.
Comments
I could get another job?
I think the best Solution would be to send all the wolves to a 3rd world country.
The ppl could have them for pets, food, defense, or hunt them for sport!
Or at the least, the wovles could kill off the 3rd world population instead and only the strong would survive, then the country would be like to wolves, controled.
The ppl win, the wovles win, the hunters win, everybody wins. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I doubt. How often does a few wolves eat 20 sheep? Those are some darn big wolves then... Or small sheep. The problem with wolves is that they kill animals "for fun". A few times I read from the newspaper that over 15 sheep got killed by wolves. The sheeps meat wasn't eaten, they were just killed.
If there really is a overpopulation of Wolves, then the prey will die out, the Wolves will lose food, and die out too, meaning there will be more prey, so the remining Wolves thrive, expand.... and so on. There is no need for human interference. I'll admit my previous post was poorly worded which may have caused some misunderstandings.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Er?? yeah, if you are someone like Hitler maybe. (slight sarcasm here, but still serious) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really, Hitler did what he did to humans, and naturally that really annoyed more than a few thousand people.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why is human life THAT much more important than non-human life??
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can see there -might- be a problem, but the methods they are planning to use is just morally wrong, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, they could attack them with sticks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So chasing them down to exhaustion, then killing them is right? er yeah. Nice one. If they were that "concerned about being humane" would they not just shoot them instantly for a clean "killshot"?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wolves feel pain and suffering too, and grieve for their lost family/mates/members - don't call me a liar here because my own cat grieved for one of my other cats when he died - she would sit at the window whining for him. She missed him. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Too an extent this can be seen as grieving but it is impossible to tell in the end exactly what an animal is doing. I have seen domestic animals pine for the other animals that have died, but natural behaviours don't really ascribe evidence to any sort of higher animal intelligence on the matter.<b> Animals aren't really capable of thinking like humans and hence 'grieving'.</b>
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Says who? Who says emotions are limited to humans? Other humans? Hmmm?
I am growing more and more tired of this community being so OMG YOU ARE WRONG NUB YOU ARE A NUB AND MUST DIE. I might be part of the problem because I feel it is getting that bad, but why must we all just go on and on at each other!? Can we not for once just work together?!
@ Majin, I was about to ask you to stop being a nub, but realised that isn't possible <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> j/k
For the same reasons that I care more for members of my own family than for random strangers.
Why are wolves THAT much more important than any other hardship story in the world?
Because you evidently like wolves. If you didn't, you wouldn't pay a second glance.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fine then don't apply it to grieving, and lets think of a situation.
You have a dog. This dog has NEVER seen another dog in its life. It was separated from its mother at birth. When you come home, this dog wags its tail at you. It might yip at you, lick you, etc. It is happy. Is it not? This dog, having had no contact with others, has had nothing imposed on it to automatically do it. Its basic emotion. Now not capable of grieving? Good lord. I forget the name of the dog, but its a famous story, of how its owner died, and EVERY day after its owned died until its own death, it would get up, get some food from the local pub, then go lay down on the owner's grave. Tell me thats not grieving?
So, controlling a population by KILLING them is justifyable? Er?? yeah, if you are someone like Hitler maybe. (slight sarcasm here, but still serious) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bah... Godwin's Law.
While I believe that Aegeri isn't giving upper level animals as much credit as they diserve, I believe that saying that Wolves have as much thinking power as we do is laughable. If you have some sort of a source on this, I'd love to see it.
Last I checked Hunters tried their best to shoot-to-kill. Wounding an animal doesn't really do much for them.
Human life is more important because there is undeniable proof that we are sentient, via the fact that I am thinking. I'm human, ergo humans think. It's not a complete proof by any means, but you have nothing like that for wolves, or animals. Closest that we have are dolphins, I believe, and that is still a hotly contested debate.
Except humans are predators, in fact, we're super predators and part of the predator/prey relationship is where we fit in. I believe those animals are both extensively hunted by humans, and also food for other large predators (bears are in the area too, and some other endangered predatory animal that lives there too).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If there really is a overpopulation of Wolves, then the prey will die out, the Wolves will lose food, and die out too, meaning there will be more prey, so the remining Wolves thrive, expand.... and so on. There is no need for human interference. I'll admit my previous post was poorly worded which may have caused some misunderstandings.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which has nothing to do with the point I made.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why is human life THAT much more important than non-human life??<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Simple, human beings are human beings and I happen to be one. It really is that simple, I'm going to preserve my own species over the wide variety of parasites and similar that are around. I'm not going to stop researching vaccines for Tuberculosis because I see some value in it (which of course there is). But it all depends however, killing some wolves isn't going to affect much in Alaska, wiping out the Coral Reef however would have a disasterous effect on an entire ecosystem that would equal mass extinction levels (for those regions).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So chasing them down to exhaustion, then killing them is right? er yeah.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alternatively they can take fire at them while moving and potentially hit utterly ANYTHING around, and then get sued for a massive amount of money.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nice one. If they were that "concerned about being humane" would they not just shoot them instantly for a clean "killshot"?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I imagine they would, unfortunately I think the wolves have other ideas and hanging around one area so they can be shot isn't one of them. It takes a lot of skill to hit anything from a helicopter however, if it was a moving target now THAT would be insanely hard.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Says who? Who says emotions are limited to humans? Other humans? Hmmm?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Says most of the respected Zoologists who have studied animal behaviour and similar. They have diplomas and years of field experience, you, as I'm more than 100% certain, do not. There are many many studies on animal behaviour that are published in every single journal of zoology every month. As a general rule, animals do not think like humans (or in exception cases seem too), but act in a way that best increases their chances of surviving and passing on their genes to the next generation of animal.
I could give you a list if you liked on animal behavioural studies when I go back to the University for my usual reading trip on wednesday.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am growing more and more tired of this community being so OMG YOU ARE WRONG NUB YOU ARE A NUB AND MUST DIE.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't say that, but for background I am a Microbiologist/Zoologist, so I like to think I know what I'm reffering too.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I might be part of the problem because I feel it is getting that bad, but why must we all just go on and on at each other!? Can we not for once just work together?!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, considering I don't really see what you're getting upset about to begin with, it's not a good starting point <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Burncycle
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why are wolves THAT much more important than any other hardship story in the world?
Because you evidently like wolves. If you didn't, you wouldn't pay a second glance. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, nobody cares about the extermination (by fungus!) of frogs, or the white tailed spiders annihilation of the common house spider, or the extermination campaigns against fire ants/german wasps, or the butchering of possums or whatever other undesirable animals are around.
Essentially, you're exactly right Burncycle.
Ottodestruct.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Fine then don't apply it to grieving, and lets think of a situation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One situation, of a domesticated dog and not a wild animal, does not a trend make. You see, I can teach a chimpanzee to paint and speak in sign language. Now does that mean that a chimpanzee is suddenly as creative as picasso or as good a speaker as a politician? No, it means that the animal has learnt from a human things that allow it to do things it would never be capable of normally. This indicates that a chimpanzee really isn't that capable of self thought firstly, and secondly that it isn't really expressing 'human' emotions through it's paintings or similar.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You have a dog. This dog has NEVER seen another dog in its life. It was separated from its mother at birth. When you come home, this dog wags its tail at you. It might yip at you, lick you, etc. It is happy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is technically just a responce of the animal to you coming home, if you consider that you probably bend down and pick it up, pet it whatever, it is merely responding to your particular actions. You're a member of the pack that has run off and now returned, so technically it would be pretty pleased to see you. It's about to get some food afterall. A dog running away after you've shouted at it is no different than what would happen in the wild incidently. It won't stay around and risk being attacked for the same reason it won't do in the wild.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Is it not? This dog, having had no contact with others, has had nothing imposed on it to automatically do it. Its basic emotion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong, it's basic instinct.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now not capable of grieving? Good lord. I forget the name of the dog, but its a famous story, of how its owner died, and EVERY day after its owned died until its own death, it would get up, get some food from the local pub, then go lay down on the owner's grave. Tell me thats not grieving?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like a lovely story to me.
Frikk
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->While I believe that Aegeri isn't giving upper level animals as much credit as they diserve, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh I am actually, just not as much as I would give a human.
I still haven't had an example of animal emotion EXCEPT in cases involving humans.
Funny that.
That would totally rock.
While I believe that Aegeri isn't giving upper level animals as much credit as they diserve, I believe that saying that Wolves have as much thinking power as we do is laughable. If you have some sort of a source on this, I'd love to see it.
Last I checked Hunters tried their best to shoot-to-kill. Wounding an animal doesn't really do much for them.
Human life is more important because there is undeniable proof that we are sentient, via the fact that I am thinking. I'm human, ergo humans think. It's not a complete proof by any means, but you have nothing like that for wolves, or animals. Closest that we have are dolphins, I believe, and that is still a hotly contested debate. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying wolves or any other animal can do high level theoretical physics, I'm saying they CAN grieve, that it is a basic emotion, which is NOT unique to humans alone.
Also, since animals such as wolves are often confined to a small space, if you have too many of them they start to suffer due to lack of food or environment. It's the same reason there is a deer season, a feasant season, a turkey season, an alligator season, and any other animal. Because we unnaturally confine animals to the areas outside of our cities and suburbs, we have to unnaturally thin their numbers.
Of course not, that's why we have physicists <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
However, you haven't given a solid example of an animal in the wild, demonstrating such a behaviour. In relation to humans you've given an animal responding to human emotions and behaviours, but nothing at all from a wild population.
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