Bunny-hopping

nuggerto · January 2004

<div class="IPBDescription">should it be removed?</div> I think bunny-hopping should be removed because -- I've always pictured the <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'> as a sneaky creature, a creature that would drop down from a ceiling and take chunk out of your back. Or even wait for you to run past then bite the back of your legs off etc.. But not come at you from a long hallway jumping from side to side, dodgeing bullets and speeding up. That should be another alien imo and i'm <u>NOT</u> saying this cause I'm some noob who is still trying to figuring out "how does he do that <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'> " I'm just saying it cause it doesn't fit the skulk imo. And its not even part of NS, just a flaw in the HL engine. Anyone agree with me? Of course the players who can b-hop perfectly won't <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Soylent_green · January 2004

I don't think it is a flaw in the HL engine, it is a flaw in the physics code. It can easily be removed alltogheter by the MOD maker, not removing it is a case of either wanting to have it or being to lazy to fix it and just using the default code. It is sometimes said that removing bunnyhopping would mean limiting the aliens movement, but that is not so at all.

I think it should either be removed(and top speed slightly increased) or better documented for new players and removed for all creatures but the skulk. Being sneaky is a rather defensive tactic and I don't think it was intended for skulks to just sneak around and hope for marines to pass by while they save up for a more usefull lifeform/hive/chambers.

Flash · January 2004

I don’t mind if it’s in or out, as long as it can’t be done with scripts.

Soylent_green · January 2004

It can't be done with scripts now. The only things that scripts get you is better jump timing, you still have to be good at strafe jumping and avoiding loosing speed on edges,slopes and stairs(which is the hardest part of bunnyhopping well).

Roger_Dodger · January 2004

Im happy with the introduction of anti script measures towards bunnyhopping, no one should be given a real advantage just because they know how to script, make it easy for new players to grasp and things would be alot better. I can understand the skulk having bunnyhop for movement by why not fix it so that they don't gain speed? Just the maneuverability.

- RD

Cereal_KillR · January 2004

I think it fits the skulk perfectly. If the marine knows how to aim, the skulk won't go all the way down a long hallway and get 4 bites. If there's maybe a couple of meters between the two, the skulk can close the distance instead of dying in that split second. Wallclimbing seems to me proof of agility (PoP, Alien, Spiderman etc) so the skulk should be able to move around a lot it's just too bad he can't jump off walls or go up a wall while not looking up to the ceiling.

Though I don't think the onos or gorge should be able to.

panda_de_malheureux · January 2004

i think bhopping is bad in any shape or form but if it stays in scripting shouldnt be banned, scripting is just making it jump all the time instead of pressing space every 2 secs and getting parkinsons desiese.

Roger_Dodger · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Cereal_KillR Posted on Jan 11 2004, 09:05 AM
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I think it fits the skulk perfectly. If the marine knows how to aim, the skulk won't go all the way down a long hallway and get 4 bites. If there's maybe a couple of meters between the two, the skulk can close the distance instead of dying in that split second. Wallclimbing seems to me proof of agility (PoP, Alien, Spiderman etc) so the skulk should be able to move around a lot it's just too bad he can't jump off walls or go up a wall while not looking up to the ceiling.

Though I don't think the onos or gorge should be able to. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Call me noobie but whats PoP? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'>

- RD

wey · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soylent green @ Jan 11 2004, 02:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> It can't be done with scripts now. The only things that scripts get you is better jump timing, you still have to be good at strafe jumping and avoiding loosing speed on edges,slopes and stairs(which is the hardest part of bunnyhopping well).  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
But actually, at least in my opinion, the 'technical' side of bhopping is mich more difficult than the mouse movement.

Scripts do all the hard work for you, everyone can learn the basics of mouse movement in some minues.
But the jump timing is much more difficult than the movement. Even when you train that for years, you can never be as good as a script.

So scripts are really 'evil'. Flayras decision to disable wait (if it's implemented in the next versions ... ) is a good solution imo.

Birdy · January 2004

Stop saying it can't be done with scripts anymore.
Wait is only a 1 frame delay
Just add more commands to the alias and it does the same.

Cereal_KillR · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Roger Dodger @ Jan 11 2004, 04:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Cereal_KillR Posted on Jan 11 2004, 09:05 AM
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I think it fits the skulk perfectly. If the marine knows how to aim, the skulk won't go all the way down a long hallway and get 4 bites. If there's maybe a couple of meters between the two, the skulk can close the distance instead of dying in that split second. Wallclimbing seems to me proof of agility (PoP, Alien, Spiderman etc) so the skulk should be able to move around a lot it's just too bad he can't jump off walls or go up a wall while not looking up to the ceiling.

Though I don't think the onos or gorge should be able to. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Call me noobie but whats PoP? <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'>

- RD  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
PoP = Prince of Persia: Sands of Time

Sure, it's not wallclimbing as in I can stay as much as I want, but it's close enough (wallrunning)

If you haven't played PoP, it's quite the game to buy.

Lazer · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (nuggerto @ Jan 11 2004, 07:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> and i'm <u>NOT</u> saying this cause I'm some noob who is still trying to figuring out "how does he do that <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'> " I'm just saying it cause it doesn't fit the skulk imo.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
You say that but CAN you bhop?

Kalias · January 2004

There will always be a ton of ways to have jump spamming for bunnyhopping, they are just less used right now, but will appear again in time, some of which can't be removed short of limiting the number of jumps you can do to 1 per <time>, I still think they should build jump spam into the jump key, either by allowing you to hold jump to constantly jump or to 'buffer' it, and so allow you to press it slightly before you land and have it still work.

The jumping is NOT the main thing about bunnyhopping and it shouldn't be, it should be all about the movement, the strafing and turning, the obscure hops in circles, weird routes and round corners... that should be what the technique is about... not who can spam jump enough or has the right ping to land properly.

For the record I can do it myself, admittedly not as well as with a jump spam script.

CommunistWithAGun · January 2004

Its almost a pointless discussion you will have 2 people arguing "You don't like it because u r nub" "You only use it because you know alot of other people can't"

Its pointless to argue, so leave it to the dev team to deicde and suck it up whatever they decide and move on <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>

th0r0n · January 2004

Tbh, the only way to disable script would be able do disable the semicolon, how do you like them apples.

Stakhanov · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soylent green @ Jan 11 2004, 02:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Being sneaky is a rather defensive tactic and I don't think it was intended for skulks to just sneak around and hope for marines to pass by while they save up for a more usefull lifeform/hive/chambers.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
From the manual :

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Skulk

The Skulk cannot attack most targets directly, at least not without evolving new abilities. It tends to remain at the edges of marine activity, looking for opportunities or ambushes. It only keeps a low profile so it can get close to its target - then mayhem ensues. Commanders were constantly reporting something "skulking" at the edges of sensor range, or through the shadows, and the name stuck.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

imho the skulk shouldn't be able to attack marines frontally without cara , celerity or leap. Disabling skulk bhop would give an incentive to use the walk key a bit , not necessarily just for cloakwalking , if a skulk hides in a vent above a res node (think subjunction on Eclipse) and waits for marines to build a RT he can reach them at melee range unnoticed unless the marines can afford to cover that vent. Silence is the weapon of choice of the true skulk.

Cold_NiTe · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (th0r0n^ @ Jan 11 2004, 01:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Tbh, the only way to disable script would be able do disable the semicolon, how do you like them apples.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Which is needed for a lot of good, legit scripting methinks.

RabidWeasel · January 2004

So is wait, but wait is being removed in 3.0, so meh.

MMZ_Torak · January 2004

When I first started playing FPS games I had no idea what bunny hopping was but could not believe how fast people were able to get around maps. I was sure it was a cheat. As I got experience, I learned what bunny hopping was and asked people what it was and tried it myself. I never got very good at it, and that's fine. I view bunny hopping similiar to a good knuckle ball. Sure everyone one knows what it is and yes it's hard to do and wow it is effective, but to ban it because everyone can't do it easily? I should hope not.

Roberto · January 2004

I wouldn't mind too much if they got rid of bunnyhopping as long as they bumped celerity back up to 2.0 level. Unfortunately, bunnyhopping is built into the balance of the game, and removing it would require tweaking the skulk's speed/health.

*edited because of nitpicking

BlueNovember · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Roberto @ Jan 11 2004, 02:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I wouldn't mind if they got rid of bunnyhopping too much if they bumped celerity back up to 2.0 level. Unfortunately, bunnyhopping is built into the balance of the game, and removing it would require tweaking the skulk's speed/health.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
eh?

Firstly, do you mean "I would not mind too much if they got rid of Bunnyhopping"? How can you remove it a little bit?

Anyway, it most certainly is not a balanced feature. If skulks were meant to cross maps faster than bullets they would have been called fades, and given a blink ability.

Bhopping can be fun, addmittedly, but it is somewhat annoying to know that Mr.NSPlayer is using scripting while you are doing it with skill. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'>

Emanon · January 2004

BH isn't a big problem in my eyes. Its when skulks hit you(jump on you) and their body starts rotating. Is that going to be removed?

Shockeh · January 2004

First, I can do it just fine, so there's no need to query that. But I like the idea someone earlier proposed, of removing it completely but upping the top speed of the skulk.

This would make the game just as playable in high level play (the speed would be the same, after all) but would make it a bit more new player friendly, which seeing as that is the main new person complaint I hear about NS, can't be a bad thing.

And before someone wastes my typing time with 'Oh but it'll be less skillful' being able to tap your feet in time (or roll your mousewheel, for that matter) is not a skill. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>

- Shockeh

Soylent_green · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>How can you remove it a little bit?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

open pm_shared.c and find the line:

#define BUNNYJUMP_MAX_SPEED_FACTOR 1.7f

And then set that constant a little lower.

Soylent_green · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Tbh, the only way to disable script would be able do disable the semicolon, how do you like them apples. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

What's preventing me from adjusting my mouse settings(it can use logitechs custom driver and not just the windows default one) so it automatically spams the command bound to it pretty much as fast as scripts can?

Dave_the_Fade · January 2004

Personally I dont think that the Aliens should get such a big speed boost from bunnyhopping, let em jump continously to dodge, but not to gain obscene amounts of speed.

Even marines seem to be able to do it.

Veal_calf · January 2004

i say marines that can jump way over a skulk and have perfect aim are worse

A_Damn_Fool · January 2004

Look we know BH is here to stay and blah blah blah scripting this and some people think well a good script is something that should be respected or some silly junk like that. Look the BH is in the game to stay come on it would be dull without it plus the only true way to deal with it would be to add an energy bar like DOD where continuous hopping would be impossible. Personally I think HA and Onos are the only thing that should have the jump command disabled (sure it sounds stupid) but I laugh out loud when I see what this supposed 600 pound alien leap up just to devour JP's or a HA jump when I'm not even sure how the hell he runs in that thing. Hmm now that I think about it if we were to remove jumping from onos the JP would actually be an effective counter to onos... wow the jp being useful... that thought blows my mind <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'> but back on topic. BH is a viable tactic skulks need it and marines well come on a LMG/LA marine at level one sucks worse then a retarded gorge let them have their bunny hopping <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Firewater · January 2004

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soylent green @ Jan 11 2004, 08:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> It can't be done with scripts now. The only things that scripts get you is better jump timing, you still have to be good at strafe jumping and avoiding loosing speed on edges,slopes and stairs(which is the hardest part of bunnyhopping well). </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
WRONG, I tap my spacebar to bunnyhop

ZiGGY · January 2004

well the way I see it (this will be very lazily written so you may just want to ignore this post)

Con: very significant movement speed variable which, if necessary to win means people who cant bunnyhop shouldnt stand a chance of victory

easily exploited by scripts, and as Ive found out certain people I know do a 6x simultaneous jump which seems to give a significant edge in the bhop speed

Pro: its a cheerylittle gimmick that 1. keeps you awake AND 2. makes you more engrossed in the game

simplifies map balancing where range is an issue

thats how I see it, I cant bhop but dont really care <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

BizZy_9mm_Messiah · January 2004

Im just glad they took out Marine Bunny hopping, one the Exigent | guys had a bunnyhopping script and was going faster than a skulk backwards. Crazyness, as for skulk's bunny hopping now, I don't care because the aliens are supposed to be faster than marines anyways, the run on 4 feet(exception, fade but they just blink) compared to the marines 2 feet.

Bunny-hopping

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