<!--QuoteBegin--Funkapotamus+Jan 14 2004, 07:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Funkapotamus @ Jan 14 2004, 07:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...Even though it was initially an exploit, Valve has allowed it to become a (intentional) feature. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is what I have a problem with. It is still an exploit, even if it is accepted as an important part of the game! Even in Quake 3(that DOES have bhopping right?) I would say that it is an exploit, but I would never say that it should be removed.
@ meatball: you know, I do perfectly fine without bhopping. If bhopping makes the game easier and/or more fun, maybe you're playing for the bunnyhopping instead of the game(or for the pwnage of nubs?)?
<!--QuoteBegin--Seph Kimara+Jan 14 2004, 07:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Seph Kimara @ Jan 14 2004, 07:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> An exploit is an exploit is an exploit. Trying to sugarcoat it by saying "It's a good exploit!" or the like is just stupid. It's like saying you could get infinite cash in <insert MMORPG here> by doing a bugged quest repeatedly and getting an expensive item repeatedly from it without having to repeat the quest, but it's not a bad exploit because anyone can do it if they learn the process of repeating the bug. Or using an infinite combo in your fighting game of choice. I mean, it's in the game, anybody can learn how to do it. Can't be an exploit if it's been left in, right? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Why does everyone take the dev's word as the word of God? That's dumb. The developers shouldn't be the ones deciding if a bug is a good exploit or a bad one, it should be the top clanning community. Anyway, it's easy to see that the infinite money in an MMORPG is a bad exploit because it doesn't take skill and adds nothing to the game. The examples that I show like conc jumping, rocket jumping, and bhopping are accepted because they all take skill to do and add another element to the game. Just because the dev's think it's bad doesn't make it true.
<!--QuoteBegin--meatball+Jan 14 2004, 08:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (meatball @ Jan 14 2004, 08:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ns without bunnyhopping would be like quake without bunnyhopping <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> no not really, quake isn't similar to ns at all.
Though I'm against removing bh anyway <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> A non-bhing skulk doesn't seem like a skulk.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> it should be the top clanning community<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no. The top clanning community sees for itself whether it wants BH but doesn't enforce it (find a way I guess). The dev removes it if it feels it right and keeps it in if it feels it right. The devs will feel it right to remove BH when it's totally out of place.
I thought it was kinda pathetic when i went in a server today that said "NO BUNNY HOPPING"
i mean, you download a mod, and whatever that mod has in it, SHOULD NOT be removed, like cs and awps, their, there as a weapon, they should not be disabled, even if people do **** them, they are part of the freakin game!!
<!--QuoteBegin--Cereal_KillR+Jan 14 2004, 08:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cereal_KillR @ Jan 14 2004, 08:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> it should be the top clanning community<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no. The top clanning community sees for itself whether it wants BH but doesn't enforce it (find a way I guess). The dev removes it if it feels it right and keeps it in if it feels it right. The devs will feel it right to remove BH when it's totally out of place. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So wronggggggg
If you were a dev, and you see something slip by and you were like, "MEH WTH I WISHED I CAUGHT THAT ONE IN BETA", and so you are working on the next build of the game...
When suddenly you find out that this 'something' which slipped by is not only well liked, but has helped to create a diehard group of people who constantly promote your game (!for free!), play it, and are really damn good at it to boot. Would you still want to remove it? Anyone would be hesitent to kill this type of community. These people I was referring to are none other than the 'vets' everyone seems to have some sort of animosity towards.
Of course you will cater a little to these people, it only makes sense.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why does everyone take the dev's word as the word of God?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because they are the creators, its their vision, not anyone else's. Everyone is welcome to express their opinion, but ultimately the ones who are making the game will decide.
I hope you don't mind me adding something here I haven't seen mentioned yet - Natural Selection has its settings placed in other worldly enviroments, so they have other gravitational forces at play, and gravity has an affect on forward motion acceleration and the opposing friction from surfaces, right? Umm, now considering that we accept this setting for the story line when we first start playing this game, is it really so hard to accept that we would accelerate differently under these conditions, let alone the game engine restrictions? From just a story setting, b-hopin' is not hard to accept, let alone as a tactical tool for top-tier competitors and those trying to become top-tier competitors.
That said, I personally feel the team play and "atmosphere" presented by the unique Kharaa and Marines are where the strengths of Natural Selection lie, not in personal traditional deathmatch "ownage". Umm, that would be a point someone else in this thread brought up before, I believe.
Final thought of my 2 cents: It isn't breaking the game and making it boring for intense competition, the currently accepted pinacle of game culture, so leave it alone already.
If that isn't enough for the previously termed "scrubs", whatever, no titanium plated armor off my back... <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--e.Nadagast+Jan 14 2004, 10:49 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (e.Nadagast @ Jan 14 2004, 10:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why does everyone take the dev's word as the word of God? That's dumb. The developers shouldn't be the ones deciding if a bug is a good exploit or a bad one, it should be the top clanning community. Anyway, it's easy to see that the infinite money in an MMORPG is a bad exploit because it doesn't take skill and adds nothing to the game. The examples that I show like conc jumping, rocket jumping, and bhopping are accepted because they all take skill to do and add another element to the game. Just because the dev's think it's bad doesn't make it true. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--"Camridge Dictionary"+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ("Camridge Dictionary")</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>EXPLOIT</b> to use someone or something unfairly for your own advantage <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the definition of exploit we are working with. There is NO SUCH THING as a good exploit when dealing with a FLAW in the game engine. They may be accepted as features in those other mods, but they are STILL flaws. All removing them would serve to cause is a large outcry of "OMG WTH HAX WERE IS MY CONCJUMP?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->??"
I really need to ask why you think the top echelon of clanners should decide what is good for a mod rather than the devs and the COMMUNITY AS A WHOLE? Is it a case of "All men and their opinions are equal, but some are more equal than others"? It's a bit backwards.
I personally don't care if it's in or not. My only problem with the thing is that Flayra said he wanted it as part of the game. That's all fine and dandy, but it's totally inaccessable to new people, or those who don't scour the web for a DECENT guide to bunny hopping. If it's gonna stay in, then there needs to be SOMETHING provided with the install that helps teach people how to do it, or a key binding that allows autojumping. Making it a "feature", but not explaining how it's done or even MENTIONING it kinda defeats the purpose of making it one in the first place. It will continue to be looked down upon until such a time that one of those features are provided.
Either fully embrace it, or remove it. Don't just say "Bunnyhopping is a feature...<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>[ps: but we're not telling you how to do it or what it is. Go find out yourself what the hell I'm talking about.]</span>"
BizZy_9mm_MessiahOld School MemberJoin Date: 2003-07-25Member: 18411Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--Rennex+Jan 14 2004, 05:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rennex @ Jan 14 2004, 05:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Make a server plugin that bans you until 2008 if you jump twice within 5 seconds. That'll stop those darned bunnyhoppers!! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd be banned for a long time my friend. I don't bunny hop much but I still jump like a maniac when an Onos is trying to stomp me.
I would miss bunnyhopping if they remove it, just because it's FUN to bunnyhop as a skulk.
Anyway, the devs remove only the scripts that help bunnyhopping, but thank god for the invention of the mousewheel <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--cHIs-+Jan 14 2004, 08:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cHIs- @ Jan 14 2004, 08:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I thought it was kinda pathetic when i went in a server today that said "NO BUNNY HOPPING"
i mean, you download a mod, and whatever that mod has in it, SHOULD NOT be removed, like cs and awps, their, there as a weapon, they should not be disabled, even if people do **** them, they are part of the freakin game!!
anyways, severs will bunny hop = silleh.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So how do you feel about plugins which ADD things to the game?
Where would NS be without unstuck? The same thing (debatably) applies to lerklift, armoury heal, adminmod, rcon, AMX, and Siege Pistols. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Funkapotamus+Jan 14 2004, 01:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Funkapotamus @ Jan 14 2004, 01:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm going to point something out that most of you probably don't understand: Valve intentionally kept bunnyhopping. They felt that it had become an "intregal part of many mods", to the point that many were balanced around it. Even though it was initially an exploit, Valve has allowed it to become a (intentional) feature.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Valve let Bunny Hopping be a part of their ENGINE, but not their games. By removing Bunny Hopping from their games, Valves clearly shows that bunny hopping is an unwanted exploit. Yet, they couldn't remove it from their engine because if they did, it would have destroyed many mods built/balanced around bunnyhopping, so they left bunny hopping in the engine for backward compatibility with old mods.
<!--QuoteBegin--Funkapotamus+Jan 14 2004, 01:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Funkapotamus @ Jan 14 2004, 01:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Much like the Iceman example in the link Forlorn posted, bhopping has raised the bar of gameplay for NS. Tactics have evolved to combat bunnyhopping. The result at the end of the day is a raised standard of gaming, and a growing gap of skill between good and bad players- leaving a robust 'middle ground' for gamers to hone themselves in.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Bunny Hopping is an unidimensional death-match skill. It's a nice 'skill' to add to a death-match game, but not to a Team/FPS/Strategical game like NS. Strategical skills are much more deep and complex than anything a death-match game can throw at you. Bunny-hopping destroys some elements of the game that improve the strategical aspect of NS, like, for example, the range advantage of marines; If Kharaas can bunny-hop, the range advantage of marines means alot less, hence long corridors lose much their strategical value. So by keeping Bunny-Hopping in the game, NS has one more death-match skill by sacrificing alot of strategical skill. Is that what is best for this Team/FPS/Strategical game? In my opinion NO, and that's why I'm for removing that 'feature' from the game.
Seph: Bunnyhopping is a feature as defined by VALVE. Does this constitute 'full embracement'?
Addition:
"Valve let Bunny Hopping be a part of their ENGINE, but not their games. By removing Bunny Hopping from their games, Valves clearly shows that bunny hopping is an unwanted exploit."
Valve removed uncapped bunnyhopping because zipping around the map at 9x speed was a bit too much. However, they recognized that bhopping was an intregal part of some mods. Therefore, they didn't hardcode the ability out, rather, they left it up to the indivual mod to remove it. They even did it in a way to specifically allow modders to change the bhop cap to whatevery they want- even so much as to remove the cap alltogether. You have not seen the SDK. Bhopping can be removed. I did it in my mod, i'm sure Flayra can if he wanted to. IT IS NO EXPLOIT IF IT INTENTIONALLY EXISTS.
Edit: You posted right before I posted, didn't see the new stuff.
There is a fundamental problem cutting through the NS gaming community which sits at the root of bunnyhopping. It is the difference between the casual and competative gamer. Many people sit down and play NS for it's teamplay and complexity. Others sit down and play to win. Here, we have a direct conflict of interests, since playing to win generally dillutes teamwork as each individual is out for themselves. You could argue that people play to win 'as a team', however, the idea of "playing to win" completely presupposes team oriented and selfless acts due to the selfish nature of the ideal.
While the two groups dissagree with how the game should be played, there is one common ground: complexity. As I stated before, the casual gamer plays NS for it's teamplay and complexity. The "power gamer", rather, the one who plays to win, relies on the game being complex to further his/her abilities. Generally, the individual plays more competatively (plays to win) is going to be the more skilled player. Skilled players are such because of their ability to hone more of the game's elements into their favor than crappy players. For example, they can aim well, think faster, predict movement more accuratly, listen, and sneak around with greater skill. Bunnyhopping is nothing more than another of these elements to add to a gamer's skillset. The more options available to a player, the more ways he can destroy someone of lesser skill.
If bunnyhopping is removed, where does it end? At what point do you continually destroy features to the detriment of the game's complexity- something both groups value. NS has reached a higher level of gameplay due to bunnyhopping. Skulks are able to organize more effective ambushes and surprise marines when they zip around corners. (Gee, a feature that helps skulks surprise people. We should get rid of it!) Subsequently, marines position themselves more strategically to combat the options skulks have. It goes without saying that the game requires more thought with bunnyhopping. More emphasis is placed on indivdual movement and position, which results in more intense gameplay, both physical and mental.
I remember in 1.04, there was a big movement to get rid of leapbiting through the removal of the lastinv command. "It's an exploit! People shouldn't switch weapons that quickly!" If I recall, severs had plugins to detect and possibly kick/ban individuals who leapbit. Now, here we are in 2.0. Can you imagine removing leapbiting? How about blinkswipe? Talk about no fun! We've been at this crossroads before. Do we really want to remove another 'leapbite'? If we do, down the line I think we'll regret it. Less features = less fun.
Before I go, lets repeat one last time: BUNNYHOPPING IS A FEATURE! VALVE INTENTIONALLY KEPT IT IN! Don't even BEGIN to argue that it's an exploit: It can easilly be removed, therefore, it's existence will always be intentional. Repeat: FEATURE. If you fail to see bhopping as such, then my entire post will mean nothing. Please do not respond unless you understand this, for otherwise, your reply will be so completely off topic that I may cry.
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jan 15 2004, 03:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jan 15 2004, 03:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Cereal_KillR+Jan 14 2004, 08:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cereal_KillR @ Jan 14 2004, 08:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> it should be the top clanning community<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no. The top clanning community sees for itself whether it wants BH but doesn't enforce it (find a way I guess). The dev removes it if it feels it right and keeps it in if it feels it right. The devs will feel it right to remove BH when it's totally out of place. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So wronggggggg
If you were a dev, and you see something slip by and you were like, "MEH WTH I WISHED I CAUGHT THAT ONE IN BETA", and so you are working on the next build of the game...
When suddenly you find out that this 'something' which slipped by is not only well liked, but has helped to create a diehard group of people who constantly promote your game (!for free!), play it, and are really damn good at it to boot. Would you still want to remove it? Anyone would be hesitent to kill this type of community. These people I was referring to are none other than the 'vets' everyone seems to have some sort of animosity towards.
Of course you will cater a little to these people, it only makes sense. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yeah I should rephrase that "The devs will feel it right to remove BH when it's harmful to the community as a whole" So far, it seems it hasn't really shown any big harm to the major part of the community to have bunnyhopping.
Don't get your hopes down, it can change. You got digest and RFK this way (both big no-no's), you might stop BH as well. It all depends on what the devs, supported by the WHOLE community, would decide to do. You might even see an official poll up one day.
<!--QuoteBegin--Align+Jan 15 2004, 12:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Jan 15 2004, 12:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What if I understand your point, but do not agree? (see page 7)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I didn't state an opinion. There is nothing to disagree with. You cannot disagree with facts. Please post counter-facts instead. That said, the definition of exploit falls within the bounds of "unintentional". Bunnyhopping is intentionally coded in. It is a feature or quirk, not an exploit. This must be understood for bunnyhopping to be seen by itself. Unless it's previous negative connotations are dispelled (from when it WAS an exploit), then we arn't battling bunnyhopping itself, rather we are fighting the 'ethical' use of exploits.
Perhaps we are mashing words. Yes, it is an exploit of the game's engine. However, it is a feature of the mod's and rules. If I make a mod named "Bunny Hop Battle Royale", where the main objective is to gain points based on how fast people bunnyhop, then there exists no gaming exploit. I have changed my mod's rules to encompass the effect produced by bunnyhopping. Likewise, so has Flayra & co. changed NS's rules to allow it. Game and engine rules are two separate things. True exploits are ones in the engine that don't fall into the game's rules- which, as we proved, is not the case here. Thus, no exploit, or at least, a <i>technical</i> one.
Eveyone is dancing around the issue. Evaluate bunnyhopping for what it does in the game. Who cares if people do it with scripts, mousewheel, or hardcore spacebar mashing? How does it effect gameplay? I could have a script to alert people how hungry I am for an Egg McMuffin right now. As long as it doesn't hurt the game (perhaps my hunger status will help the game by boosting morale!) then any argument regarding the fact that I scripted is irrelivant. You folks are so caught up on the controversy over scripts and exploits that you're missing the greater picture. Ask yourself: Is this good for the game? More importantly: WHY? I'll list a few improvements bunnyhopping has given the game:
1) Greater gaming intensity. Skulks ambush and get to areas faster. This heightens the game's level of urgency and promotes quick thinking and faster reflexes. Is this not good? Frankly, I find it boring to shoot non-bhopping skulks... too easy.
2) Improves Freedom. Nobody likes getting stuck on walls. Granted, bhopping has nothing directly to do with this. However, my point is: nobody likes having their movement feel restricted. Bhopping gives players greater control of themselves. It allows another option of movement and enhances an overall feeling of freedom. More freedom improves the fluidy of gameplay and allows for shorter down-times and more frequent action.
3) Fun-Factor Bhopping is fun! Try going around in circles reving up speed before zipping down a hall. It's loads of fun! Isn't fun what NS is all about?
I'm open to any argument regarding what bunnyhopping has done to hurt the game. Please limit all posts to such, as again, the issue isn't exploits or scripts but rather bunnyhopping itself.
<!--QuoteBegin--Funkapotamus+Jan 15 2004, 06:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Funkapotamus @ Jan 15 2004, 06:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Perhaps we are mashing words. Yes, it is an exploit of the game's engine. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> THAT was the point I was trying to make <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> I generally agree with the rest of your post though.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Valve let Bunny Hopping be a part of their ENGINE, but not their games. By removing Bunny Hopping from their games, Valves clearly shows that bunny hopping is an unwanted exploit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
CS is not all their games. There are Valve mods where bunny hopping was not removed (like TFC). It was unwanted in CS but they like it in TFC so it is no exploit.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited January 2004
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jan 12 2004, 04:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jan 12 2004, 04:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><a href='http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm' target='_blank'>People who don't like bhopping or scripts are all scrubs.</a><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, no. A scrub, as defined in that very article, is someone who considers it dishonorable to make use of that which he believes to be cheap or broken. Someone who considers it dishonorable to bunnyhop or script would fit under that definition; however, someone who dislikes bunnyhopping or scripting but does not consider it dishonorable to use them, would not.
oh man there was nothing better than bhoping in cs before they implimented the speed cap and jump stutter. nothing can beat flying under the bridge on dedust and up the terrorist side while ppl are still buying their guns, muhaha
<!--QuoteBegin--a civilian+Jan 15 2004, 03:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a civilian @ Jan 15 2004, 03:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jan 12 2004, 04:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jan 12 2004, 04:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><a href='http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm' target='_blank'>People who don't like bhopping or scripts are all scrubs.</a><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, no. A scrub, as defined in that very article, is someone who considers it dishonorable to make use of that which he believes to be cheap or broken. Someone who considers it dishonorable to bunnyhop or script would fit under that definition; however, someone who dislikes bunnyhopping or scripting but does not consider it dishonorable to use them, would not. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Aha!
<!--QuoteBegin--nuggerto+Jan 11 2004, 08:52 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (nuggerto @ Jan 11 2004, 08:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think bunny-hopping should be removed because -- I've always pictured the <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> as a sneaky creature, a creature that would drop down from a ceiling and take chunk out of your back. Or even wait for you to run past then bite the back of your legs off etc.. But not come at you from a long hallway jumping from side to side, dodgeing bullets and speeding up. That should be another alien imo and i'm <u>NOT</u> saying this cause I'm some noob who is still trying to figuring out "how does he do that <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> " I'm just saying it cause it doesn't fit the skulk imo. And its not even part of NS, just a flaw in the HL engine. Anyone agree with me? Of course the players who can b-hop perfectly won't <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> hmm yes, lets give the marines a even BIGGER advantage early game, bhop saves skulks life ALOT i dont know why u hate it so much. skulks are like cats, they can land from places and keep running without slowing down much at all. keep it in, its elss ahssel for the devs to find and take out the code and since marines dont have to go RIGHT up to a alien to kill it i dont know why your all complaing and whining about something in the game that makes a SLIGHT difference,i say deal with it, if u dont like it then quit NS
<!--QuoteBegin--Phoebus+Jan 15 2004, 09:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Phoebus @ Jan 15 2004, 09:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Bunny Hopping is an unidimensional death-match skill. It's a nice 'skill' to add to a death-match game, but not to a Team/FPS/Strategical game like NS.
Blah Blah Blah <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Aiming is a "unidimensional death-match skill", LETS TAKE THAT OUT TOO K??
Bunnyhopping is detrimental to the immersion of NS. One of NS's strong points is that it is very immersive. One of the major factors in immersion is believability. Normal play in NS is very immersive. You really do feel like you're a marine on a starbase infested with aliens, or that you really are only the size of a dog with tall humans wielding big guns shooting at you. These aspects could be reality in the future, hence they are believable and the game becomes immersive. If you saw a building in mid-air it would kill that immersion. In the same vein, seeing someone bouncing around, or see a marine base stacked inside itself harms the immersion.
I do think skulks should be agile creatures, and I tend to imagine them as the kind of creature which would dodge from one side of a corridor to the other to avoid being hit. I don't think bunnyhopping really achieves this as well it could though. A better system would be somewhere along the lines of Unreal's dodging. For that reason, and the fact that it reduces the immersion, I don't think bunnyhopping has a place in NS.
It wouldn't really reduce the amount of skill needed either IMO, there are other skills required in FPS gameplay than being able to press the jump key at exactly the right intervals during a fight. Things like awareness and aiming. Would it be so bad if NS encouraged a few more intelligence based skills such as awareness and trying to predict your opponent rather than learned and practised, reflex actions like bunnyhopping?
<!--QuoteBegin--Maj. Mistake+Jan 15 2004, 06:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maj. Mistake @ Jan 15 2004, 06:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Would it be so bad if NS encouraged a few more intelligence based skills such as awareness and trying to predict your opponent rather than learned and practised, reflex actions like bunnyhopping? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Let's play chess then. You're forgetting this is FPS aswell.
<!--QuoteBegin--Rennex+Jan 15 2004, 06:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rennex @ Jan 15 2004, 06:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Phoebus+Jan 15 2004, 09:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Phoebus @ Jan 15 2004, 09:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Bunny Hopping is an unidimensional death-match skill. It's a nice 'skill' to add to a death-match game, but not to a Team/FPS/Strategical game like NS.
Blah Blah Blah <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Aiming is a "unidimensional death-match skill", LETS TAKE THAT OUT TOO K?? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> First, aiming is NOT a deathmatch skill, aiming is the core skill of all FPS, First-Person Shooter, aim from first person perspective then shoot. Aiming is in all FPS, from the most arcade to the most strategical of them.
Aiming is not an unidimensional skill. Bunny Hopping simply gives a speed boost when executed. Aiming requires direct interaction with another player, you need to track, predict and extrapolate the target, the target evades, dodge, takes cover, hides from & confuses the attacker.
Aiming adds ALOT to the game without removing much if anything from it. Bunny Hopping adds next to nothing to the game, yet negates many valuable elements from NS gameplay.
The game is built around aiming, NOT bunny hopping.
Comments
This is what I have a problem with. It is still an exploit, even if it is accepted as an important part of the game! Even in Quake 3(that DOES have bhopping right?) I would say that it is an exploit, but I would never say that it should be removed.
@ meatball: you know, I do perfectly fine without bhopping. If bhopping makes the game easier and/or more fun, maybe you're playing for the bunnyhopping instead of the game(or for the pwnage of nubs?)?
Why does everyone take the dev's word as the word of God? That's dumb. The developers shouldn't be the ones deciding if a bug is a good exploit or a bad one, it should be the top clanning community. Anyway, it's easy to see that the infinite money in an MMORPG is a bad exploit because it doesn't take skill and adds nothing to the game. The examples that I show like conc jumping, rocket jumping, and bhopping are accepted because they all take skill to do and add another element to the game. Just because the dev's think it's bad doesn't make it true.
no not really, quake isn't similar to ns at all.
Though I'm against removing bh anyway <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
A non-bhing skulk doesn't seem like a skulk.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> it should be the top clanning community<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no.
The top clanning community sees for itself whether it wants BH but doesn't enforce it (find a way I guess). The dev removes it if it feels it right and keeps it in if it feels it right. The devs will feel it right to remove BH when it's totally out of place.
i mean, you download a mod, and whatever that mod has in it, SHOULD NOT be removed, like cs and awps, their, there as a weapon, they should not be disabled, even if people do **** them, they are part of the freakin game!!
anyways, severs will bunny hop = silleh..
no.
The top clanning community sees for itself whether it wants BH but doesn't enforce it (find a way I guess). The dev removes it if it feels it right and keeps it in if it feels it right. The devs will feel it right to remove BH when it's totally out of place. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So wronggggggg
If you were a dev, and you see something slip by and you were like, "MEH WTH I WISHED I CAUGHT THAT ONE IN BETA", and so you are working on the next build of the game...
When suddenly you find out that this 'something' which slipped by is not only well liked, but has helped to create a diehard group of people who constantly promote your game (!for free!), play it, and are really damn good at it to boot. Would you still want to remove it? Anyone would be hesitent to kill this type of community. These people I was referring to are none other than the 'vets' everyone seems to have some sort of animosity towards.
Of course you will cater a little to these people, it only makes sense.
Because they are the creators, its their vision, not anyone else's. Everyone is welcome to express their opinion, but ultimately the ones who are making the game will decide.
That said, I personally feel the team play and "atmosphere" presented by the unique Kharaa and Marines are where the strengths of Natural Selection lie, not in personal traditional deathmatch "ownage". Umm, that would be a point someone else in this thread brought up before, I believe.
Final thought of my 2 cents: It isn't breaking the game and making it boring for intense competition, the currently accepted pinacle of game culture, so leave it alone already.
If that isn't enough for the previously termed "scrubs", whatever, no titanium plated armor off my back... <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--"Camridge Dictionary"+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ("Camridge Dictionary")</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<b>EXPLOIT</b>
to use someone or something unfairly for your own advantage
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the definition of exploit we are working with. There is NO SUCH THING as a good exploit when dealing with a FLAW in the game engine. They may be accepted as features in those other mods, but they are STILL flaws. All removing them would serve to cause is a large outcry of "OMG WTH HAX WERE IS MY CONCJUMP?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->??"
I really need to ask why you think the top echelon of clanners should decide what is good for a mod rather than the devs and the COMMUNITY AS A WHOLE? Is it a case of "All men and their opinions are equal, but some are more equal than others"? It's a bit backwards.
I personally don't care if it's in or not. My only problem with the thing is that Flayra said he wanted it as part of the game. That's all fine and dandy, but it's totally inaccessable to new people, or those who don't scour the web for a DECENT guide to bunny hopping. If it's gonna stay in, then there needs to be SOMETHING provided with the install that helps teach people how to do it, or a key binding that allows autojumping. Making it a "feature", but not explaining how it's done or even MENTIONING it kinda defeats the purpose of making it one in the first place. It will continue to be looked down upon until such a time that one of those features are provided.
Either fully embrace it, or remove it. Don't just say "Bunnyhopping is a feature...<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>[ps: but we're not telling you how to do it or what it is. Go find out yourself what the hell I'm talking about.]</span>"
I'd be banned for a long time my friend. I don't bunny hop much but I still jump like a maniac when an Onos is trying to stomp me.
Anyway, the devs remove only the scripts that help bunnyhopping, but thank god for the invention of the mousewheel <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
i mean, you download a mod, and whatever that mod has in it, SHOULD NOT be removed, like cs and awps, their, there as a weapon, they should not be disabled, even if people do **** them, they are part of the freakin game!!
anyways, severs will bunny hop = silleh.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So how do you feel about plugins which ADD things to the game?
Where would NS be without unstuck? The same thing (debatably) applies to lerklift, armoury heal, adminmod, rcon, AMX, and Siege Pistols. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well, OBVIOUSLY not siege pistols.
Valve let Bunny Hopping be a part of their ENGINE, but not their games.
By removing Bunny Hopping from their games, Valves clearly shows that bunny hopping is an unwanted exploit.
Yet, they couldn't remove it from their engine because if they did, it would have destroyed many mods built/balanced around bunnyhopping, so they left bunny hopping in the engine for backward compatibility with old mods.
<!--QuoteBegin--Funkapotamus+Jan 14 2004, 01:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Funkapotamus @ Jan 14 2004, 01:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Much like the Iceman example in the link Forlorn posted, bhopping has raised the bar of gameplay for NS. Tactics have evolved to combat bunnyhopping. The result at the end of the day is a raised standard of gaming, and a growing gap of skill between good and bad players- leaving a robust 'middle ground' for gamers to hone themselves in.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bunny Hopping is an unidimensional death-match skill. It's a nice 'skill' to add to a death-match game, but not to a Team/FPS/Strategical game like NS.
Strategical skills are much more deep and complex than anything a death-match game can throw at you.
Bunny-hopping destroys some elements of the game that improve the strategical aspect of NS, like, for example, the range advantage of marines; If Kharaas can bunny-hop, the range advantage of marines means alot less, hence long corridors lose much their strategical value.
So by keeping Bunny-Hopping in the game, NS has one more death-match skill by sacrificing alot of strategical skill.
Is that what is best for this Team/FPS/Strategical game?
In my opinion NO, and that's why I'm for removing that 'feature' from the game.
Addition:
"Valve let Bunny Hopping be a part of their ENGINE, but not their games.
By removing Bunny Hopping from their games, Valves clearly shows that bunny hopping is an unwanted exploit."
Valve removed uncapped bunnyhopping because zipping around the map at 9x speed was a bit too much. However, they recognized that bhopping was an intregal part of some mods. Therefore, they didn't hardcode the ability out, rather, they left it up to the indivual mod to remove it. They even did it in a way to specifically allow modders to change the bhop cap to whatevery they want- even so much as to remove the cap alltogether. You have not seen the SDK. Bhopping can be removed. I did it in my mod, i'm sure Flayra can if he wanted to. IT IS NO EXPLOIT IF IT INTENTIONALLY EXISTS.
Edit: You posted right before I posted, didn't see the new stuff.
There is a fundamental problem cutting through the NS gaming community which sits at the root of bunnyhopping. It is the difference between the casual and competative gamer. Many people sit down and play NS for it's teamplay and complexity. Others sit down and play to win. Here, we have a direct conflict of interests, since playing to win generally dillutes teamwork as each individual is out for themselves. You could argue that people play to win 'as a team', however, the idea of "playing to win" completely presupposes team oriented and selfless acts due to the selfish nature of the ideal.
While the two groups dissagree with how the game should be played, there is one common ground: complexity. As I stated before, the casual gamer plays NS for it's teamplay and complexity. The "power gamer", rather, the one who plays to win, relies on the game being complex to further his/her abilities. Generally, the individual plays more competatively (plays to win) is going to be the more skilled player. Skilled players are such because of their ability to hone more of the game's elements into their favor than crappy players. For example, they can aim well, think faster, predict movement more accuratly, listen, and sneak around with greater skill. Bunnyhopping is nothing more than another of these elements to add to a gamer's skillset. The more options available to a player, the more ways he can destroy someone of lesser skill.
If bunnyhopping is removed, where does it end? At what point do you continually destroy features to the detriment of the game's complexity- something both groups value. NS has reached a higher level of gameplay due to bunnyhopping. Skulks are able to organize more effective ambushes and surprise marines when they zip around corners. (Gee, a feature that helps skulks surprise people. We should get rid of it!) Subsequently, marines position themselves more strategically to combat the options skulks have. It goes without saying that the game requires more thought with bunnyhopping. More emphasis is placed on indivdual movement and position, which results in more intense gameplay, both physical and mental.
I remember in 1.04, there was a big movement to get rid of leapbiting through the removal of the lastinv command. "It's an exploit! People shouldn't switch weapons that quickly!" If I recall, severs had plugins to detect and possibly kick/ban individuals who leapbit. Now, here we are in 2.0. Can you imagine removing leapbiting? How about blinkswipe? Talk about no fun! We've been at this crossroads before. Do we really want to remove another 'leapbite'? If we do, down the line I think we'll regret it. Less features = less fun.
Before I go, lets repeat one last time: BUNNYHOPPING IS A FEATURE! VALVE INTENTIONALLY KEPT IT IN! Don't even BEGIN to argue that it's an exploit: It can easilly be removed, therefore, it's existence will always be intentional. Repeat: FEATURE. If you fail to see bhopping as such, then my entire post will mean nothing. Please do not respond unless you understand this, for otherwise, your reply will be so completely off topic that I may cry.
(see page 7)
no.
The top clanning community sees for itself whether it wants BH but doesn't enforce it (find a way I guess). The dev removes it if it feels it right and keeps it in if it feels it right. The devs will feel it right to remove BH when it's totally out of place. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So wronggggggg
If you were a dev, and you see something slip by and you were like, "MEH WTH I WISHED I CAUGHT THAT ONE IN BETA", and so you are working on the next build of the game...
When suddenly you find out that this 'something' which slipped by is not only well liked, but has helped to create a diehard group of people who constantly promote your game (!for free!), play it, and are really damn good at it to boot. Would you still want to remove it? Anyone would be hesitent to kill this type of community. These people I was referring to are none other than the 'vets' everyone seems to have some sort of animosity towards.
Of course you will cater a little to these people, it only makes sense. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah I should rephrase that "The devs will feel it right to remove BH when it's harmful to the community as a whole"
So far, it seems it hasn't really shown any big harm to the major part of the community to have bunnyhopping.
Don't get your hopes down, it can change. You got digest and RFK this way (both big no-no's), you might stop BH as well. It all depends on what the devs, supported by the WHOLE community, would decide to do. You might even see an official poll up one day.
(see page 7)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't state an opinion. There is nothing to disagree with. You cannot disagree with facts. Please post counter-facts instead.
That said, the definition of exploit falls within the bounds of "unintentional". Bunnyhopping is intentionally coded in. It is a feature or quirk, not an exploit. This must be understood for bunnyhopping to be seen by itself. Unless it's previous negative connotations are dispelled (from when it WAS an exploit), then we arn't battling bunnyhopping itself, rather we are fighting the 'ethical' use of exploits.
Perhaps we are mashing words. Yes, it is an exploit of the game's engine. However, it is a feature of the mod's and rules. If I make a mod named "Bunny Hop Battle Royale", where the main objective is to gain points based on how fast people bunnyhop, then there exists no gaming exploit. I have changed my mod's rules to encompass the effect produced by bunnyhopping. Likewise, so has Flayra & co. changed NS's rules to allow it. Game and engine rules are two separate things. True exploits are ones in the engine that don't fall into the game's rules- which, as we proved, is not the case here. Thus, no exploit, or at least, a <i>technical</i> one.
Eveyone is dancing around the issue. Evaluate bunnyhopping for what it does in the game. Who cares if people do it with scripts, mousewheel, or hardcore spacebar mashing? How does it effect gameplay? I could have a script to alert people how hungry I am for an Egg McMuffin right now. As long as it doesn't hurt the game (perhaps my hunger status will help the game by boosting morale!) then any argument regarding the fact that I scripted is irrelivant. You folks are so caught up on the controversy over scripts and exploits that you're missing the greater picture. Ask yourself: Is this good for the game? More importantly: WHY? I'll list a few improvements bunnyhopping has given the game:
1) Greater gaming intensity.
Skulks ambush and get to areas faster. This heightens the game's level of urgency and promotes quick thinking and faster reflexes. Is this not good? Frankly, I find it boring to shoot non-bhopping skulks... too easy.
2) Improves Freedom.
Nobody likes getting stuck on walls. Granted, bhopping has nothing directly to do with this. However, my point is: nobody likes having their movement feel restricted. Bhopping gives players greater control of themselves. It allows another option of movement and enhances an overall feeling of freedom. More freedom improves the fluidy of gameplay and allows for shorter down-times and more frequent action.
3) Fun-Factor
Bhopping is fun! Try going around in circles reving up speed before zipping down a hall. It's loads of fun! Isn't fun what NS is all about?
I'm open to any argument regarding what bunnyhopping has done to hurt the game. Please limit all posts to such, as again, the issue isn't exploits or scripts but rather bunnyhopping itself.
THAT was the point I was trying to make <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I generally agree with the rest of your post though.
By removing Bunny Hopping from their games, Valves clearly shows that bunny hopping is an unwanted exploit.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
CS is not all their games. There are Valve mods where bunny hopping was not removed (like TFC). It was unwanted in CS but they like it in TFC so it is no exploit.
Actually, no. A scrub, as defined in that very article, is someone who considers it dishonorable to make use of that which he believes to be cheap or broken. Someone who considers it dishonorable to bunnyhop or script would fit under that definition; however, someone who dislikes bunnyhopping or scripting but does not consider it dishonorable to use them, would not.
Actually, no. A scrub, as defined in that very article, is someone who considers it dishonorable to make use of that which he believes to be cheap or broken. Someone who considers it dishonorable to bunnyhop or script would fit under that definition; however, someone who dislikes bunnyhopping or scripting but does not consider it dishonorable to use them, would not. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aha!
Nice one. You are correct.
hmm yes, lets give the marines a even BIGGER advantage early game, bhop saves skulks life ALOT i dont know why u hate it so much. skulks are like cats, they can land from places and keep running without slowing down much at all. keep it in, its elss ahssel for the devs to find and take out the code and since marines dont have to go RIGHT up to a alien to kill it i dont know why your all complaing and whining about something in the game that makes a SLIGHT difference,i say deal with it, if u dont like it then quit NS
Blah Blah Blah <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aiming is a "unidimensional death-match skill", LETS TAKE THAT OUT TOO K??
I do think skulks should be agile creatures, and I tend to imagine them as the kind of creature which would dodge from one side of a corridor to the other to avoid being hit. I don't think bunnyhopping really achieves this as well it could though. A better system would be somewhere along the lines of Unreal's dodging. For that reason, and the fact that it reduces the immersion, I don't think bunnyhopping has a place in NS.
It wouldn't really reduce the amount of skill needed either IMO, there are other skills required in FPS gameplay than being able to press the jump key at exactly the right intervals during a fight. Things like awareness and aiming. Would it be so bad if NS encouraged a few more intelligence based skills such as awareness and trying to predict your opponent rather than learned and practised, reflex actions like bunnyhopping?
Let's play chess then. You're forgetting this is FPS aswell.
Blah Blah Blah <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aiming is a "unidimensional death-match skill", LETS TAKE THAT OUT TOO K?? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
First, aiming is NOT a deathmatch skill, aiming is the core skill of all FPS, First-Person Shooter, aim from first person perspective then shoot. Aiming is in all FPS, from the most arcade to the most strategical of them.
Aiming is not an unidimensional skill. Bunny Hopping simply gives a speed boost when executed. Aiming requires direct interaction with another player, you need to track, predict and extrapolate the target, the target evades, dodge, takes cover, hides from & confuses the attacker.
Aiming adds ALOT to the game without removing much if anything from it.
Bunny Hopping adds next to nothing to the game, yet negates many valuable elements from NS gameplay.
The game is built around aiming, NOT bunny hopping.
So much for your slippery slope logical fallacy.