<!--QuoteBegin--Insignus+Jan 20 2004, 06:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Insignus @ Jan 20 2004, 06:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I have a question: <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> when you don't use any question marks, and aren't requesting any information, it's not really a question.
So far I've mostly seen a lot of "I've got a Linux on my desktop and it's great'" posts here. Pardon me, but here's a big wake-up call: "Home computing is not where OS's get successful". If your system is not good in the enterprise, no one cares what your distro is and what desktop shell you like the best. If you have no enterprise-level directory services, no group policies, limited driver support (keep telling yourselves that it's good, linux guys - it ain't), no groupware, no ability to cheaply and efficiently run 100's of thousands of pre-existing Win32 apps, etc. then you're not ready for the business world. Until you're ready for the business world, no one will care.
There's a reason that after 13 years, they have not been able to give Linux away (heck, now RedHat charges more for 9 than MS does for Win 2003 web server, but that's a different story) - and the reason is not an evil conspiracy. It's that the product is simply is not ready. As admitted by the big guys of Linux this year, actually.
Am I saying give up and stop trying? No - Linux definitely has potential, and at the very least forces competition in the marketplace, which is always good. Am I saying that I would recommend Linux to my customers for desktop computing? Not a chance. The tools and capabilities it needs aren't even on the horizon yet, much less robust and usable in a large environment.
Monse it is a evil conspiracy!!!!!!! you just cant see it!! MITROSOFT WANTS JOOR SOUL!!!!!!
But really i see what ur getting at. After all, this day and age its all about the money, stuff your pockets, and run like hell for the rabbit hole. And linux just cant make the grade like windows and its license mongering agreements.
But back to the evil conspiracy <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> You think windows is expensive now. Just wait till they implement the yearly license plan.
If it was up to me, mitrosoft and windows would be trashed, but it isnt up to me yet.
BTW Yall it isnt "Microsoft" its "Mitrosoft"
On a side note, i only have 14 more posts till i level up, so i need to forum **** some more.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ A rant aint a rant if it aint got that slant -MEH
<!--QuoteBegin--Insignus+Jan 21 2004, 12:49 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Insignus @ Jan 21 2004, 12:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But really i see what ur getting at. After all, this day and age its all about the money, stuff your pockets, and run like hell for the rabbit hole. And linux just cant make the grade like windows and its license mongering agreements. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's not what Monse was saying at all... NOT even close.
And Windows ( at least the desktop version ) is not expensive... Especially if you get it when buying an OEM PC. Office and Photoshop and countless other applications cost way more than Windows.
There are alot of companies that would disagree with you MonsE. Including, but not limited to: SUN, Novelle, and IBM. Where did you get the idea that Linux has no group policies? Its pretty much built right into the filesystem. Maybe we're using different definitions, care to clarify? The drver thing is, of course, a chicken and egg problem. And you can hardly fault an OS for not being able to run almost any of annother OSs software can you? I mean, I really like iDVD (not nessesarily, just an example), but Windows can't run a MacOSX exicutable, so can I fault Windows for that? The fact that Linux (and the BSDs) can run Win32 apps at all is pretty impressive if you ask me. And I could probably, even though its after midnight, find some links to throw back at you about how linux is ready. But that wouldn't get us anywhere. It basically aomes down to personal opinion, and a lot of people are of the opinion that Linux is better RIGHT NOW because they don't need anything fancy, and/or find Open Source ideals to be ethically better.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There are alot of companies that would disagree with you MonsE.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sun, Novell, and IBM all sell linux variants - of course they are going to disagree with me, it's in their best business interest. I've consulted for eighteen fortune 100, 500, and 1000 companies over the past 9 years using about 20,000 total servers and close to a million PC's and I can tell you: they are not using linux except for a tiny handful of specialized things. If you've got a differenet experience, feel free to enlighten me. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Where did you get the idea that Linux has no group policies<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Group policies have nothing to do with a file system - you are thinking of ACL's. Group policies define how you can automatically build a desktop configuration on a per-user basis dynamically at login, all being delivered by a directory service system based on group memberships, org units, etc. while automatically installing and updating software, as well as restricting the user's experience. There is no Linux product that does Directory Services and Group Policies. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->drver thing is, of course, a chicken and egg problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As I already said. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And you can hardly fault an OS for not being able to run almost any of annother OSs software can you?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That was not my point - my point was that you have to come up with a way to make 20 years of software get replaced with excellent Linux equivalents. Not the crap you see on sourceforge - REAL business equivalents. As well as make it so that you don't have to buy several tens of millions of dollars of WINE licenses in order to deploy linux in a company. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It basically aomes down to personal opinion, and a lot of people are of the opinion that Linux is better RIGHT NOW because they don't need anything fancy, and/or find Open Source ideals to be ethically better. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, it doesn't. It comes down to being driven by the business world - that's what keeps the computer industry going. As long as Linux is unrealistic in the business world, it will remain a tiny niche player.
Were you planning on commenting on this article I gave you? <a href='http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/linuxunix/0,39020390,39117575,00.htm' target='_blank'>http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/linuxunix...39117575,00.htm</a>
MonsieurEvil has pwned this entire thread. Questions have been answered, linux is fine for the home PC if you wish to educate yourself on its use and applications, but it has serious shortcommings in the business realm. The only places you normally see linux in the business community is when cost is a LARGE factor. The only other times you really see it at all are with IBM's WebSphere, which actually utilizes Unix, and is based off it, which means IBM re-wrote it to work for the specialized applications. The only other times ive seen it massively used is Apache, which is a pretty nice piece of web serving software. ISS still is easier to use and has an arseload more support, but again, Apache can be aquired free of charge and without legal rammifications.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not the crap you see on sourceforge - REAL business equivalents. As well as make it so that you don't have to buy several tens of millions of dollars of WINE licenses in order to deploy linux in a company.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
first, there is not only crap at sourceforge. There are programms like:
eMule, a powerfull WINDOWS P2P programm phpMyAdmin, i hope you know that... Ethereal, one of the best, if not the best network packet sniffer Crystal Space 3D, a powerfull 3D engine GIMP, a powerfull photo editing programm like photoshop
And there are much more quality programms, but most of them you dont know.
And where have you heard that you have to pay for WINE? wine ist FREE. www.winehq.org only wineX is not free, but its meant to play directX games. But even winex can be get for free by CVS or from a homepage
You are correct, I confused WINE and WINEX. Sorry.
However (you knew there would be a however), if you read the fine-print of WINE, you start to see why companies haven't adopted it widely, along with many other products released under the GNU terms:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU Lesser General Public License for more details.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> CIO's and IT managers don't want to see that.
And yes, you named a couple of good apps at sourceForge. You failed to mention about 100,000 crappy ones. As a developer and engineer, I know many of them from experience. Not to mention that most of the ones you named are, again, not particulary business oriented. An insurance company doesn't need a cool photoshop-like program, especially when they can just buy Photoshop and have an industry standard product that lots of artists know and use, that has a warranty, and that has good support. These mom-and-pop garage software guys at SF by and large cannot hope to meet the demands of a big customer.
Repeat after me: your PC at home is not related to a corporations tens of thousands of desktops.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
Well, we make at school a "test" we work for one year on linux for our project. We have to make a web application, network administration etc. And we will use Linux as much as possible. I dont know how it will turn out, but if it works we will have a network with servers AND stations on linux. We will see
I agree w/ you completely on the giant corporation end Monse. Points about personal desktop use, gaming use, and corporate use have already been made, but I'm suprised that I'm the first to bring up small business. This of course depends on the individual business itself.
When you're dealing with a small business, you're dealing with people who don't have $600 to shell out on a copy of Photoshop they may only use once or twice a month. The business may find that its much favorable (again, depending on the business itself) to have their employees learn a new, but similar, environment rather than forking over $300 for each WinXP license, then even more than that for Office licenses.
At my work (about 12 people here in Oklahoma (6 of us are IT), and another 6 in Washington D.C.) we use both. Win 2003 Adv. Server for internal comany stuff like Exchange, our Spam killer box (we have an entire server dedicated to sorting out spam, we get about 900 spam mails a day). We also use Windows on our desktop PCs for Office XP, Exchange, and other misc apps like the Accounting software (until we switched to a new internet-based app called NetSuite, which is actually really really nice) and our PHP Editors (half of us use PHPed, other half use Dreamweaver).
However, for our web servers we use Redhat, Apache, and MySQL, with PHPMyAdmin for easy maintainence tasks. The web servers are suprisingly stable, especially considering that up until a week ago they were running a Release Candidate release of Redhat 5 (or something similarly old and not finished), a beta of Apache, and a pre-release something of MySQL. Still, solid as a rock with no problems, which is pretty impressive I think.
So again, it depends on the business whether Linux or Windows is better. For us its a mixture of both.
As soon as they wipe out Java and Linux, Microsoft will say "Oops, remember that contract that you signed when you agreed to use Windows? We neglected to tell you the little clause that basically states we can charge you as much as we want for the rest of your life for ever having used it. We'll be happy to cancel the contract. Our company lawyer, the devil, will handle any soul deals you wish to make."
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Were you planning on commenting on this article I gave you? <a href='http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/linuxunix...39117575,00.htm' target='_blank'>http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/linuxunix...39117575,00.htm</a> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, but now that you mention it, why didn't you go with something more along the lines of <a href='http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=5707' target='_blank'>http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=5707</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--SkulkBait+Jan 21 2004, 04:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Jan 21 2004, 04:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Were you planning on commenting on this article I gave you? <a href='http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/linuxunix...39117575,00.htm' target='_blank'>http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/linuxunix...39117575,00.htm</a> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, but now that you mention it, why didn't you go with something more along the lines of <a href='http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=5707' target='_blank'>http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=5707</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Very well, I shall!!!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As a side note, I think that in a few years the amount of religious feverism towards linux will result in Linus Torvalds being nailed to a cross. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And speak of the Devil!
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Ok, that was a mega bad pun. I am a product of my Pop, after all... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--></span>
<!--QuoteBegin--xect+Jan 18 2004, 08:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (xect @ Jan 18 2004, 08:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Linux falls off at one single devastating point. It is not backed by a huge, monopolizing company. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This statement is an oxymoron if you hadn't realized it. For all intents and purposes, the REAL exploitation that occurs in a monopoly can only in a true monolopy, that is <b>the sole provider of a good or service</b>, of which Microsoft is not. Statistics of market dominance will not disprove this fact. Market dominance lends its own power, but it is of a much reduced threat then that of a pure monopoly.
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Jan 21 2004, 07:18 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Jan 21 2004, 07:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Until you're ready for the business world, no one will care. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You really hit the nail on the hammer. Yes Linux may be better than Microsoft as an operating system, but not as a prodcut. Confused? Linux was made by geeks, for geeks. And geeks don't know the first thing about marketing, and even less about knowing that all Grandma wants to do is check her email without fuss or muss. Windows, and all the lies and filth behind them, are excellent marketers and even better at making the O/S user-friend. People are willing to make the trade off between stability and security for user friendliness, especially if no one else presents the alternative.
<!--QuoteBegin-MonsieurEvil+Jan 21 2004, 10:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Jan 21 2004, 10:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is no Linux product that does Directory Services and Group Policies. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It may be true that there's no "Killer App" for managing corporate desktops under linux, but you can absolutely customize a user's work environment based on a person's group memberships, etc., from a centralized location. You might have to write/cobble together tools in house to meet your org's exact needs, but the functionality is there. And, of course, it's open and extensible, unlike Microsoft's products. Webmin is quickly changing things, though, and within a few years I think there will be that "Killer App."
I currently manage an environment including six servers and two hundred workstations (among eight different departments, each with their own specialized needs). All Gnu/Linux. Not a M$ product in sight. Since management gets scared when you say "there is no official support", we have a contract with Progeny to provide support as needed.
You are right, though, that GNU/Linux is not ready for widespread workstation use, but the day will come.
<!--QuoteBegin-moai+Feb 6 2004, 03:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moai @ Feb 6 2004, 03:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-MonsieurEvil+Jan 21 2004, 10:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Jan 21 2004, 10:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is no Linux product that does Directory Services and Group Policies. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It may be true that there's no "Killer App" for managing corporate desktops under linux, but you can absolutely customize a user's work environment based on a person's group memberships, etc., from a centralized location. You might have to write/cobble together tools in house to meet your org's exact needs, but the functionality is there. And, of course, it's open and extensible, unlike Microsoft's products. Webmin is quickly changing things, though, and within a few years I think there will be that "Killer App."
I currently manage an environment including six servers and two hundred workstations (among eight different departments, each with their own specialized needs). All Gnu/Linux. Not a M$ product in sight. Since management gets scared when you say "there is no official support", we have a contract with Progeny to provide support as needed.
You are right, though, that GNU/Linux is not ready for widespread workstation use, but the day will come. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Interesting point you make - except that MS group policies <i>are</i> open and extensible. If you feel limited by the ones they give you, you can write your own - they are sort of a pseudo-ini file, after all. You can also write your own distribution systems as well - I do that for a living actually. I'm not hindered in any way from doing this by MS (although I am for Netware, as I'm not slick with NLM's and their Java implementation sucks ponce). I would be very interested in hearing about the Directory Services (IETF x.500) implementations people are working on for Linux though (and there really should be some out there - I know that Netscape did some work here, for example, and they have a strong tie to the linux dev community).
I currently manage an environment with 7000 computers and 650 MS and Netware servers. Not a linux in sight. I think I missed your point, but I'm still working on my coffee intake today <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> .
<!--QuoteBegin-MonsieurEvil+Feb 6 2004, 02:55 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Feb 6 2004, 02:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I missed your point, but I'm still working on my coffee intake today <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> .<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> hehe, well, I'm not sure I had one!
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
ever tried the new kernel 2.6? (actualy 2.6.2) great speed improvements. MySQL is something like 30% faster than with 2.4. I dont see why it shouldnt be used as a server..
And my linux workstation works great, even Steam + NS works... i want nothing more ;-)
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Jan 19 2004, 06:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Jan 19 2004, 06:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is somewhat offtopic, but I think its an interesting UI innovation (enev if I'll never use it): <a href='http://segusoland.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html' target='_blank'>segusoLand</a>.
Personally, I think linux is superior to Windows in many respects, but it is by no means the end-all be-all of OSs. Actually, there really isn't an OS in existance (or at least that I have ever heard of) that I think I'd like for a desktop. The main problem is the exreem disorder in the file hierarchy. For instance, in Windows (9x kernel) there is a C:\Windows directory.... what goes in there? System files, Some media files, Some images, some programs, ect. its quite disorganized IMO. Even worse, the Windows graphical component is not separated from the rest of the OS, hell, there are alot of programs that aren't either.
The UNIX systems have a similar problem, they take one program and spread its files out accrossed the filesystem so you need a special tool to manage program installation and uninstallation. <a href='http://rox.sourceforge.net/phpwiki/' target='_blank'>ROX</a> brings the concept of AppDirs (self contained applications) to Linux, which is a step in the right direction, a direction that <a href='http://roxos.sunsite.dk/' target='_blank'>RoxOS</a> continues on. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd just like to add that <a href='http://www.gobolinux.org' target='_blank'>Gobo Linux</a> also takes a different approach to hadnling the file hierarchy. It uses "package directories" which are not be relocatable like appdirs, but serve the purpose of separating files by their associated packages, making uninstallation, upgrading, and if nessesary, downgrading of packages much simpler. It also makes it easier to install programs as a non-gobo (they changed 'root' to 'gobo' for kicks) user.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
To everyome. try the new kernel and KDE 3.2
Its just a dream, ill never ever go back to windows, KDE 3.2 is soooooo great :-) (i have mandrake 10 beta 2 now, if you dont know linux dont use it, its not very stable, there are some bugs, and you would think linux is unstable, but it isnt in the final versions)
<!--QuoteBegin-DOOManiac+Jan 21 2004, 11:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DOOManiac @ Jan 21 2004, 11:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As a side note, I think that in a few years the amount of religious feverism towards linux will result in Linus Torvalds being nailed to a cross. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's quite funny Doom.
And I agree with Monse. Since Linux is a baby and windows is made by a multi-multi billion dollar corperation. Linux is not as good for the masses an Windows.
Even software from linux has moved it's way to windows (Open Office)
Windows is growing much faster than Linux (complar ME ans XP and see what I mean <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->) But Linux, although it is growing, is growing slow and won't be a good OS for desktop users for a while.
I'm pretty much in the group of non-linux user who probably falls in the group that Microsoft targets. With that said, the fact that I know Linux exists and am interested in using it shows that Microsoft is already losing ground.
As far as marketing is considered, the best kind of advertising is word of mouth, and Linux gets plenty of that. Along with good PR (the underdog) compared to Microsofts' image (big bad corporate monopoly) there are some distinct weaknesses that are starting to form in Microsofts hold.
As far ease of use, I'm not worried about that. With technology, its a huge trickle down effect. For example: the ultimate gaming rigs out there now, which are considered bleeding edge and for only l33t users who know what "overclocking" and "cache" means will become the standard tomorrow. Same with software, most college students are learning HTML and basic computer language programming for today's environment.
What I think will be the true test is how well both systems work in a 64 bit environment. I've heard mixed reviews on Longhorn, and I'm not sure what Linux has in mind, so it'll be interesting to see what happens.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
Heh. I'm already running 64-bit mode on Linux. And the support has been there (and available to the general public) for a year or two.. maybe even three, now. And it just keeps getting better with every kernel revision.
On the other hand, Longhorn is still 'in the wings', unless you want to consider MS Server 2003 as a viable 64-bit environment test. Can't speak on that as I can't afford the couple thousand dollars for a license, whereas Linux just required a download, configuration, and compile... and all my hardware was working just fine. But then, I knew I had a Netgear 310-TX (with the NatSemi chipset) in there, along with an SBLive, and a VIA K8T800 chipset, among other bits that most 'standard' computer users have no clue about.
On the other hand, under Linux I can actually USE my SBLive. WinXP has a funny little error... an OS-dependant flaw that causes ANY machine using a Creative Labs card from the SB512 onward to lose stability when the machine is running in ACPI mode. Which is required for 64-bit operation. Linux, it's just fine.. the OS has a clue and traps the error correctly, whereas Windows just keels over, blackscreens and reboots without warning. Any time, any circumstances. Can just be sitting there and do it, or be in the middle of a round and do it, or be writing a letter and be met with the black screen of death. Very annoying, and why I've had to switch over to an SB PCI128 any time I'm going to run in XP.
For a business with a clue, Linux could be a viable alternative. For a user with a clue, also. It's when you get into dealing with people who don't want to think that you have problems; at which point you just get them a Mac using OSX, and boom. Shiny-pretty-pretty-pointy-clicky, still under a *nix environment, allowing the continued use of any update/version/syscheck scripts you may have deployed company-wide.
<!--QuoteBegin-Caboose+Feb 8 2004, 12:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Caboose @ Feb 8 2004, 12:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But Linux, although it is growing, is growing slow and won't be a good OS for desktop users for a while. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Linux distrubutors must first start understanding the amount of RD spent on just making sure users like what they see... The amount of money MS puts into making things "user-friendly". . .
Not to mention the fact that the MS UI is entrenched into society now. It'll be extremely difficult for anyting radically different to even start to supplant Windows.
Comments
when you don't use any question marks, and aren't requesting any information, it's not really a question.
DONT QUESTION MY QUESTION THAT IS REALLY A SUGGESTION IN DISGUISE!!!!!
There's a reason that after 13 years, they have not been able to give Linux away (heck, now RedHat charges more for 9 than MS does for Win 2003 web server, but that's a different story) - and the reason is not an evil conspiracy. It's that the product is simply is not ready. As admitted by the big guys of Linux this year, actually.
<a href='http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/linuxunix/0,39020390,39117575,00.htm' target='_blank'>http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/linuxunix...39117575,00.htm</a>
Am I saying give up and stop trying? No - Linux definitely has potential, and at the very least forces competition in the marketplace, which is always good. Am I saying that I would recommend Linux to my customers for desktop computing? Not a chance. The tools and capabilities it needs aren't even on the horizon yet, much less robust and usable in a large environment.
MITROSOFT WANTS JOOR SOUL!!!!!!
But really i see what ur getting at. After all, this day and age its all about the money, stuff your pockets, and run like hell for the rabbit hole. And linux just cant make the grade like windows and its license mongering agreements.
But back to the evil conspiracy <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
You think windows is expensive now. Just wait till they implement the yearly license plan.
If it was up to me, mitrosoft and windows would be trashed, but it isnt up to me yet.
BTW Yall it isnt "Microsoft" its "Mitrosoft"
On a side note, i only have 14 more posts till i level up, so i need to forum **** some more.
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A rant aint a rant if it aint got that slant
-MEH
That's not what Monse was saying at all... NOT even close.
And Windows ( at least the desktop version ) is not expensive... Especially if you get it when buying an OEM PC. Office and Photoshop and countless other applications cost way more than Windows.
Sun, Novell, and IBM all sell linux variants - of course they are going to disagree with me, it's in their best business interest. I've consulted for eighteen fortune 100, 500, and 1000 companies over the past 9 years using about 20,000 total servers and close to a million PC's and I can tell you: they are not using linux except for a tiny handful of specialized things. If you've got a differenet experience, feel free to enlighten me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Where did you get the idea that Linux has no group policies<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Group policies have nothing to do with a file system - you are thinking of ACL's. Group policies define how you can automatically build a desktop configuration on a per-user basis dynamically at login, all being delivered by a directory service system based on group memberships, org units, etc. while automatically installing and updating software, as well as restricting the user's experience. There is no Linux product that does Directory Services and Group Policies.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->drver thing is, of course, a chicken and egg problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I already said.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And you can hardly fault an OS for not being able to run almost any of annother OSs software can you?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was not my point - my point was that you have to come up with a way to make 20 years of software get replaced with excellent Linux equivalents. Not the crap you see on sourceforge - REAL business equivalents. As well as make it so that you don't have to buy several tens of millions of dollars of WINE licenses in order to deploy linux in a company.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It basically aomes down to personal opinion, and a lot of people are of the opinion that Linux is better RIGHT NOW because they don't need anything fancy, and/or find Open Source ideals to be ethically better. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it doesn't. It comes down to being driven by the business world - that's what keeps the computer industry going. As long as Linux is unrealistic in the business world, it will remain a tiny niche player.
Were you planning on commenting on this article I gave you? <a href='http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/linuxunix/0,39020390,39117575,00.htm' target='_blank'>http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/linuxunix...39117575,00.htm</a>
The only places you normally see linux in the business community is when cost is a LARGE factor. The only other times you really see it at all are with IBM's WebSphere, which actually utilizes Unix, and is based off it, which means IBM re-wrote it to work for the specialized applications. The only other times ive seen it massively used is Apache, which is a pretty nice piece of web serving software. ISS still is easier to use and has an arseload more support, but again, Apache can be aquired free of charge and without legal rammifications.
first, there is not only crap at sourceforge. There are programms like:
eMule, a powerfull WINDOWS P2P programm
phpMyAdmin, i hope you know that...
Ethereal, one of the best, if not the best network packet sniffer
Crystal Space 3D, a powerfull 3D engine
GIMP, a powerfull photo editing programm like photoshop
And there are much more quality programms, but most of them you dont know.
And where have you heard that you have to pay for WINE? wine ist FREE. www.winehq.org only wineX is not free, but its meant to play directX games. But even winex can be get for free by CVS or from a homepage
However (you knew there would be a however), if you read the fine-print of WINE, you start to see why companies haven't adopted it widely, along with many other products released under the GNU terms:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU Lesser General Public License for more details.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
CIO's and IT managers don't want to see that.
And yes, you named a couple of good apps at sourceForge. You failed to mention about 100,000 crappy ones. As a developer and engineer, I know many of them from experience. Not to mention that most of the ones you named are, again, not particulary business oriented. An insurance company doesn't need a cool photoshop-like program, especially when they can just buy Photoshop and have an industry standard product that lots of artists know and use, that has a warranty, and that has good support. These mom-and-pop garage software guys at SF by and large cannot hope to meet the demands of a big customer.
Repeat after me: your PC at home is not related to a corporations tens of thousands of desktops.
I agree w/ you completely on the giant corporation end Monse. Points about personal desktop use, gaming use, and corporate use have already been made, but I'm suprised that I'm the first to bring up small business. This of course depends on the individual business itself.
When you're dealing with a small business, you're dealing with people who don't have $600 to shell out on a copy of Photoshop they may only use once or twice a month. The business may find that its much favorable (again, depending on the business itself) to have their employees learn a new, but similar, environment rather than forking over $300 for each WinXP license, then even more than that for Office licenses.
At my work (about 12 people here in Oklahoma (6 of us are IT), and another 6 in Washington D.C.) we use both. Win 2003 Adv. Server for internal comany stuff like Exchange, our Spam killer box (we have an entire server dedicated to sorting out spam, we get about 900 spam mails a day). We also use Windows on our desktop PCs for Office XP, Exchange, and other misc apps like the Accounting software (until we switched to a new internet-based app called NetSuite, which is actually really really nice) and our PHP Editors (half of us use PHPed, other half use Dreamweaver).
However, for our web servers we use Redhat, Apache, and MySQL, with PHPMyAdmin for easy maintainence tasks. The web servers are suprisingly stable, especially considering that up until a week ago they were running a Release Candidate release of Redhat 5 (or something similarly old and not finished), a beta of Apache, and a pre-release something of MySQL. Still, solid as a rock with no problems, which is pretty impressive I think.
So again, it depends on the business whether Linux or Windows is better. For us its a mixture of both.
p.s. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/style_images/2/icon12.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'> Crontab
No, but now that you mention it, why didn't you go with something more along the lines of <a href='http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=5707' target='_blank'>http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=5707</a>
No, but now that you mention it, why didn't you go with something more along the lines of <a href='http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=5707' target='_blank'>http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=5707</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very well, I shall!!!
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As a side note, I think that in a few years the amount of religious feverism towards linux will result in Linus Torvalds being nailed to a cross. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And speak of the Devil!
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Ok, that was a mega bad pun. I am a product of my Pop, after all... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--></span>
This statement is an oxymoron if you hadn't realized it.
For all intents and purposes, the REAL exploitation that occurs in a monopoly can only in a true monolopy, that is <b>the sole provider of a good or service</b>, of which Microsoft is not. Statistics of market dominance will not disprove this fact. Market dominance lends its own power, but it is of a much reduced threat then that of a pure monopoly.
You really hit the nail on the hammer. Yes Linux may be better than Microsoft as an operating system, but not as a prodcut. Confused?
Linux was made by geeks, for geeks. And geeks don't know the first thing about marketing, and even less about knowing that all Grandma wants to do is check her email without fuss or muss. Windows, and all the lies and filth behind them, are excellent marketers and even better at making the O/S user-friend. People are willing to make the trade off between stability and security for user friendliness, especially if no one else presents the alternative.
It's only recently IBM started promoting Linux,
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It may be true that there's no "Killer App" for managing corporate desktops under linux, but you can absolutely customize a user's work environment based on a person's group memberships, etc., from a centralized location. You might have to write/cobble together tools in house to meet your org's exact needs, but the functionality is there. And, of course, it's open and extensible, unlike Microsoft's products. Webmin is quickly changing things, though, and within a few years I think there will be that "Killer App."
I currently manage an environment including six servers and two hundred workstations (among eight different departments, each with their own specialized needs). All Gnu/Linux. Not a M$ product in sight. Since management gets scared when you say "there is no official support", we have a contract with Progeny to provide support as needed.
You are right, though, that GNU/Linux is not ready for widespread workstation use, but the day will come.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It may be true that there's no "Killer App" for managing corporate desktops under linux, but you can absolutely customize a user's work environment based on a person's group memberships, etc., from a centralized location. You might have to write/cobble together tools in house to meet your org's exact needs, but the functionality is there. And, of course, it's open and extensible, unlike Microsoft's products. Webmin is quickly changing things, though, and within a few years I think there will be that "Killer App."
I currently manage an environment including six servers and two hundred workstations (among eight different departments, each with their own specialized needs). All Gnu/Linux. Not a M$ product in sight. Since management gets scared when you say "there is no official support", we have a contract with Progeny to provide support as needed.
You are right, though, that GNU/Linux is not ready for widespread workstation use, but the day will come. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interesting point you make - except that MS group policies <i>are</i> open and extensible. If you feel limited by the ones they give you, you can write your own - they are sort of a pseudo-ini file, after all. You can also write your own distribution systems as well - I do that for a living actually. I'm not hindered in any way from doing this by MS (although I am for Netware, as I'm not slick with NLM's and their Java implementation sucks ponce). I would be very interested in hearing about the Directory Services (IETF x.500) implementations people are working on for Linux though (and there really should be some out there - I know that Netscape did some work here, for example, and they have a strong tie to the linux dev community).
I currently manage an environment with 7000 computers and 650 MS and Netware servers. Not a linux in sight. I think I missed your point, but I'm still working on my coffee intake today <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> .
hehe, well, I'm not sure I had one!
0xDECAFBAD <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And my linux workstation works great, even Steam + NS works... i want nothing more ;-)
Personally, I think linux is superior to Windows in many respects, but it is by no means the end-all be-all of OSs. Actually, there really isn't an OS in existance (or at least that I have ever heard of) that I think I'd like for a desktop. The main problem is the exreem disorder in the file hierarchy. For instance, in Windows (9x kernel) there is a C:\Windows directory.... what goes in there? System files, Some media files, Some images, some programs, ect. its quite disorganized IMO. Even worse, the Windows graphical component is not separated from the rest of the OS, hell, there are alot of programs that aren't either.
The UNIX systems have a similar problem, they take one program and spread its files out accrossed the filesystem so you need a special tool to manage program installation and uninstallation. <a href='http://rox.sourceforge.net/phpwiki/' target='_blank'>ROX</a> brings the concept of AppDirs (self contained applications) to Linux, which is a step in the right direction, a direction that <a href='http://roxos.sunsite.dk/' target='_blank'>RoxOS</a> continues on. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd just like to add that <a href='http://www.gobolinux.org' target='_blank'>Gobo Linux</a> also takes a different approach to hadnling the file hierarchy. It uses "package directories" which are not be relocatable like appdirs, but serve the purpose of separating files by their associated packages, making uninstallation, upgrading, and if nessesary, downgrading of packages much simpler. It also makes it easier to install programs as a non-gobo (they changed 'root' to 'gobo' for kicks) user.
Its just a dream, ill never ever go back to windows, KDE 3.2 is soooooo great :-)
(i have mandrake 10 beta 2 now, if you dont know linux dont use it, its not very stable, there are some bugs, and you would think linux is unstable, but it isnt in the final versions)
That's quite funny Doom.
And I agree with Monse. Since Linux is a baby and windows is made by a multi-multi billion dollar corperation. Linux is not as good for the masses an Windows.
Even software from linux has moved it's way to windows (Open Office)
Windows is growing much faster than Linux (complar ME ans XP and see what I mean <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->) But Linux, although it is growing, is growing slow and won't be a good OS for desktop users for a while.
As far as marketing is considered, the best kind of advertising is word of mouth, and Linux gets plenty of that. Along with good PR (the underdog) compared to Microsofts' image (big bad corporate monopoly) there are some distinct weaknesses that are starting to form in Microsofts hold.
As far ease of use, I'm not worried about that. With technology, its a huge trickle down effect. For example: the ultimate gaming rigs out there now, which are considered bleeding edge and for only l33t users who know what "overclocking" and "cache" means will become the standard tomorrow. Same with software, most college students are learning HTML and basic computer language programming for today's environment.
What I think will be the true test is how well both systems work in a 64 bit environment. I've heard mixed reviews on Longhorn, and I'm not sure what Linux has in mind, so it'll be interesting to see what happens.
On the other hand, Longhorn is still 'in the wings', unless you want to consider MS Server 2003 as a viable 64-bit environment test. Can't speak on that as I can't afford the couple thousand dollars for a license, whereas Linux just required a download, configuration, and compile... and all my hardware was working just fine. But then, I knew I had a Netgear 310-TX (with the NatSemi chipset) in there, along with an SBLive, and a VIA K8T800 chipset, among other bits that most 'standard' computer users have no clue about.
On the other hand, under Linux I can actually USE my SBLive. WinXP has a funny little error... an OS-dependant flaw that causes ANY machine using a Creative Labs card from the SB512 onward to lose stability when the machine is running in ACPI mode. Which is required for 64-bit operation. Linux, it's just fine.. the OS has a clue and traps the error correctly, whereas Windows just keels over, blackscreens and reboots without warning. Any time, any circumstances. Can just be sitting there and do it, or be in the middle of a round and do it, or be writing a letter and be met with the black screen of death.
Very annoying, and why I've had to switch over to an SB PCI128 any time I'm going to run in XP.
For a business with a clue, Linux could be a viable alternative. For a user with a clue, also. It's when you get into dealing with people who don't want to think that you have problems; at which point you just get them a Mac using OSX, and boom. Shiny-pretty-pretty-pointy-clicky, still under a *nix environment, allowing the continued use of any update/version/syscheck scripts you may have deployed company-wide.
Linux distrubutors must first start understanding the amount of RD spent on just making sure users like what they see... The amount of money MS puts into making things "user-friendly". . .
Not to mention the fact that the MS UI is entrenched into society now. It'll be extremely difficult for anyting radically different to even start to supplant Windows.