Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
<!--quoteo(post=1610467:date=Mar 1 2007, 05:39 PM:name=Crotalus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crotalus @ Mar 1 2007, 05:39 PM) [snapback]1610467[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Yeah, great, I can't wait for the Tau
"lol, pew pew lol" "4 teh greater good!!!1!1!!11oneone" "OMGWTH u stupid melee nOOb"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I can see it all now.
Tau: lol p3w p3w p3w! Space Marine: FOR THE LULZ! Chaos SM: PURGE, lol Ork: FOR TEH HOOOo.. er, WAGH, LOL! Eldar: IM A SPACE ELF LOL Dark Eldar: IM A SPACE DARKELF LOL *MOONBEAMS* Imperial Guard: STORM TEH FORNT Sisters of Battle: LOL IM 14 YRS OLD MY CHAR HAS BOOBIES LOOOOOOOOOOL!!!!!!!!!!!
This announcement has really got me thinking of the best way to approach such an expansive world.
The PlanetSide model is okay, but I don't really see how you could get much character development by that route. I would love to see it as a PvP instance deal, alongside a more rich environment.
Perhaps a way to reconcile the two is to force players to become ultra specialized. For instance, within the Chaos forces you would have to first choose your allegiance to a god, then what vehicle/weapon you want to specialize in. In that way you could become adept at motorcycles or driving a particular tank, or wielding a specific heavy weapon... So if each race and "sub-race" (chapters, allegiances, orders, etc.) was so diverse it would force players of the same specialty to group together and "guilds" to form balanced armies. This system would still leave room for evolution within a specialty, for instance as an Eldar you could begin by piloting a jetbike, then move up to a vyper if you can cooperate with one other person and even move up to a falcon if you cooperate with 2 or 3 others. This would make for teamwork at a small and large scale, and also provide a wide variety of "careers" to aim for.
I think any game that relies on <b>people</b> to fill specific roles is inherently flawed.
Look at the current crop of MMOs with their daffy reliance on the holy trinity. How often do you see groups sitting about waiting for a tank or healer instead of having fun in the game because those two classes are less popular?
The simple fact is that if you make a game that relies on roles, one or more of those roles will be less popular than the rest and it breaks because supply will never meet demand.
The sooner games move away from this ancient idiocy we call class interdependence, the better. "oh people have been using it for years! It must work!", yeah because using asbestos for insulation was a brilliant idea.
<!--quoteo(post=1610490:date=Mar 2 2007, 04:27 AM:name=RuBy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RuBy @ Mar 2 2007, 04:27 AM) [snapback]1610490[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> What do you think? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lets take SM as an example:
After character generation you start as a scout in a SM outpost.
You do your first assignments (scouting and killing critters) until you are promoted to scout sergeant. As sarge you can lead a whole squad of scouts (either player, or pc controled).
You do a few more missions (more scouting and fighting the other races (most likely orcs, cause they spore everywhere) until you finally get your last modifications and become a full grown SM.
Cause you are a normal SM you cannot control a SM squad yet, but because you cannot do any solo scouting as SM, you go to mission briefings, enter a thunderhawk and then you land via drop-pod in the fighting zone, with lots of other players. Here you are fighting alongside player controlled SMs against player controlled xenos.
When being taken out an apothecari rescues you and you are send back to your base. After having spend enough time on the battlefield (or killed enough xenos, whatever) you are promoted to SM sergeant and can now lead a squad of SMs into battle.
As SM sergeant you can now join a chapter(clan)! More to that below.
As sarge, you can join mission briefings and join battles via thunderhawk/drop-pod, but you now can control a whole Squad of SMs (either pc controlled or player controlled).
After you have gained enough experience as SM sarge, you gain access to vehicles training. Complete vehicles training and you can go to mission briefings and enter the big battles in a vehicle. In order to avoid that lategame everyone will be driving a landraider, you need to fill a vehicle-meter, by fighting on foot. If you want to join a battle in a landraider, you need to have a full vehcile bar, (for a predator you need a 75% filled vehicle bar) when you are in a vehicle your vehicle bar is depleting at a moderate speed. If you die (vehicle gets destroyed) and your bar is under the vehicle requirement you need to fight on foot for some time, to get your vehicle bar filling up again.
This could be the solo and free for all part. (of course you can earn medals and equipment and skillpoints and blablablub on the battlefield)
----------------------------- Chapters (clans) Chapters can fight for control over planets (they cannot fight over the planets, where the freeforall battles are taking place)
A chapter is the only place, where you get to play certain characters (commander,chaplains,psionics etc).
A chapter gains reinforcement points, depending on the number of players they have, planets (some planets can net more than others) they control and other factors (yet to be determined).
So lets say, that the glorious iron falcons want to attack Daidolus Prime, which is currently controled by a dark eldar clan know as the harbringers. The clan leaders now sent an attack force, which consits of the chapters 2nd company and 20000 ressource points. The players of the 2nd company now decide BEFORE they are sent to the planet, which vehicles they want to take into battle etc etc... Lets say they "buy" 2 landraiders 110 SMs, 1 assassin and 3 trikes for the 20000 points. These units are now sent to the planet. Space travel will take about 2 days RL. The leaders of the defending dark eldar clan now gain a message, that a space marine force of medium size is apprroaching they planet xy. Depending on how good their intel is, they might even know the exact number of attackers etc. The dark eldar clan now assign ressource points and troops of their own to defend the planet. The planet could also have prebuilt defences, like orbital shield, that buy some time and prevent bombardments or artillery or defense towers etc etc.
When the attacking force arrives at the planet they can see certain number of battlefields (not more than 6?). They attacking/defending forces can now deploy units to the battlefields and fight over control. Once the attackers control 5 or more provinces, they can disable the orbital shield and start bombarding the remaining defenders.
If the attackers kill of all defenders and have more than 5000 ressource points left, they can take control over the planet. If all attackers die, they dont get control over the planet. If the attackers kill all defenders, but have less than 5000 ressource points left, they cannot take control the planet, but they can purge it with an orbital bombardments, reducing the number of ressources the planet produces, for 2-3 weeks(RL). ---------------------------------------------------------------- In order to avoid big clans beating on small clans, small clans get the option to simply pay 10% of the planets ressource income to the big clan for 1 week in order to avoid invasion.
EXPANDABLE...
To sum it up:
Big free for all battlefields for the beginners/solo players (you fight alongside your race vs another race)
Clans fight over control of ressource yielding planets. (mix of round based strategy/browser games and RPG/RTS)
As great as that sounds imagine the amount of coordination that would require. 100 SM's attack a single planet at the same time, while someone tries to keep the children coordinated? Yeah, compare that to finding 40 decent players to raid some endgame raid instance.
<!--quoteo(post=1610563:date=Mar 2 2007, 12:47 PM:name=Geminosity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Geminosity @ Mar 2 2007, 12:47 PM) [snapback]1610563[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I think any game that relies on <b>people</b> to fill specific roles is inherently flawed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'll have to agree with that. And expanding on that, everyone needs to fill a small role (basically just don't go "LULZ" as the Space marine, or medieval fighter...), and I think why MMOs generally tend to lack immersion completely - you can't really get the depth there when people do not act accordingly - and problem is, depth is, imho at least, is what makes RPGs good. Somewhat the same can be said about WH40k, though it's more of a tabletop game - but the world is cool because the depth its lore has :X *shrug*
<!--quoteo(post=1610583:date=Mar 2 2007, 02:16 PM:name=RustySpoon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RustySpoon @ Mar 2 2007, 02:16 PM) [snapback]1610583[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> As great as that sounds imagine the amount of coordination that would require. 100 SM's attack a single planet at the same time, while someone tries to keep the children coordinated? Yeah, compare that to finding 40 decent players to raid some endgame raid instance. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You would actually need only 12-16 people for a medium sized army, because everyone can control a whole squad of marines. The way I imagine the clan-play 20 players would be minimum to make it playable (20 because you hardly have everyone available all the time). 40 players would be a clan, able to hold several planets and 80-100 players could create massive forces, of 250 units battling at the same time, with ease.
Thats 1 player for every squad and two for the HQ (1 commanding the HQs abilitys and movements, the other one giving orders)
Take into account that you can bring in reinforcements for ressources, the player number only limits the number of squads on the battlefield at the same time ^^
But yes, it suffers from the classic "you need decent people to play and enjoy it syndrome"
<!--quoteo(post=1610340:date=Mar 1 2007, 04:06 PM:name=Geminosity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Geminosity @ Mar 1 2007, 04:06 PM) [snapback]1610340[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> like I said nil, easiest way around it is for Orks and IG be captain units. If you play IG you get to play a commissar who commands a crowd of IG soldiers (kinda like a pet class on crack really) and for Orcs you get to play a Nobz with a bunch of NPC Boyz tagging along with you that you can order about :3
The commissar could even have fun abilities like shooting one of his own men to boost the moral of the rest of them or other such 40k style stuff <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Can you say Wargear? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1610465:date=Mar 1 2007, 08:33 PM:name=Xyth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Xyth @ Mar 1 2007, 08:33 PM) [snapback]1610465[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Edit: <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Hell, with some of the sides that require more in the way of "mass" you could allow people to control an entire squad of AIs instead of requiring each guy to be player controlled. Possibly allow a hybrid of this and the other idea, so you and 5 friends can control 40+ AIs, or if you happen to have 40 friends, you can each control a guy individually.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> NOTE: TEXT IN YELLOW IS ALL AN ORIGINAL IDEA AND ANY CREDIT NOT GIVEN TO ME IS A DOWNRIGHT INSULT. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1610480:date=Mar 1 2007, 09:25 PM:name=Geminosity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Geminosity @ Mar 1 2007, 09:25 PM) [snapback]1610480[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> AI controlled units? What a wonderful idea! I almost wish I'd thought of it first and made two posts about it already. That would've been fab <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, I was gonna say something about that strange yellow post...
<b>RECAP:</b> Anyways, if we they want to replicate the tabletop game, I think the mass AI seems like a great route. All characters would be either pilots or sergeants. That way you could either command a battle vehicle, or command a squad of AIs. Due to the massive scale of WH40K, it's almost absolutely necessary to have hundreds of players on the field. Where are you going to find that many people? You don't have to, cause now, you have a personal battle squad to control! Another great point was the instanced battles, or Chapter vs. Chapter. It would keep things simple and would play like a traditional WH40K game. With the right rules, it would also prevent team unbalancing that would very possibly turn up if the game were setup like Planetside.
1. Each player is either a pilot or sergeant (Vehicles or Squad of AIs) 2. Instanced battle to simplify and prevent unbalanced armies
<!--coloro:#999999--><span style="color:#999999"><!--/coloro--><b>Crispy's got the right idea:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#999999--><span style="color:#999999"><!--/coloro-->To expand on the idea, I think that this theory would work really freaking awesome with character development! Pilots would choose their favorite vehicles, and then they could COMPLETELY trick it out with wargear and insignias to their own liking, a completely customizable ride! Squad leaders would be able to distribute wargear and customize their squad's banner. Imagine a newb Space Marine squad leader, he leads a team of SM Scouts. With some EXP, he can determine what weapons to give his team (Sniper, Sword) and maybe even customize his personal wargear. THEN, imagine a high level SM leader who has given his entire team Terminator Suits! From there, he can customize to have Assault or Ranged Terminators! To keep the game balanced, there would be an army point cost system just like in the tabletop game to estimate army strengths!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot, Tau are better than Space Marines.
Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
<!--quoteo(post=1610828:date=Mar 2 2007, 07:50 PM:name=emperor_awesome)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(emperor_awesome @ Mar 2 2007, 07:50 PM) [snapback]1610828[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Devs aren't allowed to read game ideas off forums or from emailed suggestions due to copyright etc issues. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't lie, it's just because the devs plan to ruin the game anyway and cba to read anything that might make it better.
It was generally agreed upon in IRC that if this game was an MMOFPS it would do quite well simply because all other MMOFPS games on the market now suck.
You know. If they based this off of the Necromunda setting and made it an MMOFPS, it would rock really hard.
Start out as just another humdrum citizen,
Chracter creation works like SWG's (Since that's really open ended and I loved it.). Once your appearance is chosen, you pick your Perks and Skills (Think Fallout1/2 here.) and select some basic starting equipment. (Knives, pistol, some home-made explosives, maybe a sword or something.) You gain a few levels, get another perk, join a gang(clan, guild, group, etc.) and fight for turf inside the hive.
Yah, I see your point that Necromunda would work perfectly, but is that what we need? Yet another MMORPG that follows the same basic play styles all other RPGs have? I think the pilot/squad leader idea that this thread developed is really unique, something no one has done yet. It also fits the tabletop game perfectly too. It just sounds so coo, you end up with AI squads commanded by one human squad leader, and everyone else is a vehicle pilot. Massive scale combat without massive amounts of players!
This would be a rather small battle force, but look, you can have a 30 person force with only 10 live players. It is also MUCH easier to control. Because the squad is made of one human and four AI, you won't have a bunch of idiots who don't pay attention. Tactical command would be a breeze, instead of dealing with 29 people, you only deal with 10.
<!--quoteo(post=1610851:date=Mar 3 2007, 12:31 AM:name=Crotalus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crotalus @ Mar 3 2007, 12:31 AM) [snapback]1610851[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Yah, I see your point that Necromunda would work perfectly, but is that what we need? Yet another MMORPG that follows the same basic play styles all other RPGs have? I think the pilot/squad leader idea that this thread developed is really unique, something no one has done yet. It also fits the tabletop game perfectly too. It just sounds so cool, you end up with AI squads commanded by one human squad leader, and everyone else is a vehicle pilot. Massive scale combat without massive amounts of players! <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How much fun is controlling a squad of guys though? It would take alot of the "twitch" skills people seem to like so much away from combat. The majority of the population doesn't like slow and methodical combat, which is what controlling squads of men would create. Also, telling a group of people where to go is kind of boring....
<b>To prevent the game from becoming slow and methodical, the game would rely on SOLID AI</b>
Trust me, I am not a fan of methodical or intelligent combat either. If this idea were adopted, it would call for some intense AI. <b>This isn't going to be some Tom Clancy game, where you need to be cautious.</b> leave that to the guy who wants to be the Force Commander. Your squad will be intelligent, take cover, and give you elbow room. They wouldn't have to be ordered around, becuase they ALWAYS follow you, no matter what. As a squad leader, you need to do a GOOD deal of fighting because you are the strongest dude in the squad.
Think HL1 bots. Essentially, you don't command a bunch of dummies around. You would play as you normally do in ANY FPS, except this time, you have a team of bots backing you up. The only real control you have over your squad is:
1. Wargear and Equipment 2. Movement of Squad 3. Combat disposition (Assault, Ranged, etc...) 4. "Fun abilities like shooting one of his own men to boost the moral of the rest" - Geminosity
<b>You are a sergeant, not an officer. Combat is your duty, and your men should know what they are doing.</b>
EDIT: It is important to also note that the game maps will be vast and generally open. There might be urban maps, but they will have to be large. Because of the nature of this idea, cramp spaces will ABSOLUTELY wreak havoc on squad manuverability.
Maybe they'll do something <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisitor_%28game%29" target="_blank">Inquisitor</a>-like. That would give them a more RPG-ish out, and it does fit into the 40k IP.
<!--quoteo(post=1610882:date=Mar 3 2007, 03:55 AM:name=Kaine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kaine @ Mar 3 2007, 03:55 AM) [snapback]1610882[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Maybe they'll do something <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisitor_%28game%29" target="_blank">Inquisitor</a>-like. That would give them a more RPG-ish out, and it does fit into the 40k IP. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ugh, you'd have so many Eisenhorn, Ravenor and anime-styled clones running around it would be ruined.
Edit: Well, in the Ravenor-Clone's case... Rolling around.
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
edited March 2007
<!--quoteo(post=1610958:date=Mar 3 2007, 05:36 PM:name=cshank4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cshank4 @ Mar 3 2007, 05:36 PM) [snapback]1610958[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Ugh, you'd have so many Eisenhorn, Ravenor and anime-styled clones running around it would be ruined. Edit: Well, in the Ravenor-Clone's case... Rolling around. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh, I forgot about how many ripoff names there'd be.
"Yarr1ck" "Y4rrick" "Y4rr1ck" "Yarric|<"
and so on.
Somehow, to me, seeing Yarrick say "LOL PWNT!" would be far worse than some random Space Marine saying it.
Controlling a squad of five, if done well, wouldn't be much more difficult than in Republic Commando. An imperial guard or ork player might have 25 soldiers or boyz to order to around, but they could just be put in groups of five that always stick together, effectively making it no more difficult than commanding five units.
By default, your squad would simply follow you around, shooting at enemies they see and taking cover nearby when you stop moving. That could be "defensive posture." In offensive posture, your troops would be more aggressive, willing to move further away from you to engage the enemy and so on. Passive posture would be like defensive posture, except your units would never open fire by themselves, only returning fire and shooting at targets you shoot at (good for when the enemy hasn't spotted you and you want to lay low while moving into a favourable position). Just these three postures, with one button for each (F1, F2, F3) would already offer you decent control without interfering with your own "twitch" game. Next, you could add context-sensitive commands. Aim at the enemy Rhino and press "use" and your three bazzukka-boyz will engage and attempt to destroy it, overriding their "posture."
Actually, if you've played Republic Commando, all of this already makes sense to you, and I'm preaching to the choir. And if you haven't, go play Republic Commando. It's a good game, and all of this will make sense to you then.
In short, an MMOFPS where you command a small squad of AI troops could definitely work, without being all micromanagement and no twitch. The biggest challenges would be making sure that the AI troops work well: Good pathfinding, no standing with the back to the enemy while the player frantically tries to get them to turn around, that kind of thing. At the same time, it's very important not to de-emphasize the player's role in this. In a battle between four players, each with 25 AI units under their command, the human players would only make up a small percentage of the units on the battlefield, but they should still be the decisive factor in the fight.
Actually, I'd sign up just to see a space-marine get cut in half by a chainsword wielded by a chaos marine. Then, like hearing the chaos dude scream 'LOL, PWNT, NOOB.'
This AI bots stuff is interesting, but you have to hope the netcode and graphics engine will be able to handle all that. Speaking of which, I hope they can make they game more serious looking than WoW, while keeping humor in the Orks (and other comic relief) and staying away from the cheesiness that looms.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1611110:date=Mar 4 2007, 04:24 AM:name=RuBy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RuBy @ Mar 4 2007, 04:24 AM) [snapback]1611110[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> and staying away from the cheesiness that looms. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which is what is putting me off WarHammer:Online. GW has gone through a phase where <i>everything</i> must be 'Dark & Gothic', so much so that there's no contrast. Watch the cinematic they've released, it takes itself waaay too seriously for a game.
<!--quoteo(post=1611177:date=Mar 4 2007, 02:18 AM:name=Shockwave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Shockwave @ Mar 4 2007, 02:18 AM) [snapback]1611177[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Which is what is putting me off WarHammer:Online. GW has gone through a phase where <i>everything</i> must be 'Dark & Gothic', so much so that there's no contrast. Watch the cinematic they've released, it takes itself waaay too seriously for a game.
- Shockwave <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think an orc loading himself in a catapult and firing himself towards a dwarven fortress, screaming, with bloodlust in his eyes, only to go SPLAT on the wall, is taking itself waaaaay to seriously.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1611248:date=Mar 4 2007, 05:14 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Mar 4 2007, 05:14 PM) [snapback]1611248[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I don't think an orc loading himself in a catapult and firing himself towards a dwarven fortress, screaming, with bloodlust in his eyes, only to go SPLAT on the wall, is taking itself waaaaay to seriously. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Two possible debates: Orcs have always been the 'comedy' race. They were the light heated alternative in WHFB. But that comedy was about vicious, brutal Orcs cohabiting with sneaky, occasionally comedic Goblins and food sources just as likely to eat you first, in the shape of Squigs. The Orcs aren't, and weren't in that cinematic, the slightest bit funny.
Debate #2: Clearly, there's a massive difference between 'waaaaay' and 'waaay'. 'Waaaay' would have struck a happy medium.
<!--quoteo(post=1611259:date=Mar 4 2007, 06:09 PM:name=Shockwave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Shockwave @ Mar 4 2007, 06:09 PM) [snapback]1611259[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Two possible debates: Orcs have always been the 'comedy' race. They were the light heated alternative in WHFB. But that comedy was about vicious, brutal Orcs cohabiting with sneaky, occasionally comedic Goblins and food sources just as likely to eat you first, in the shape of Squigs. The Orcs aren't, and weren't in that cinematic, the slightest bit funny.
Debate #2: Clearly, there's a massive difference between 'waaaaay' and 'waaay'. 'Waaaay' would have struck a happy medium.
- Shockwave <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would have just argued its war. You do anything to win.
Comments
"lol, pew pew lol"
"4 teh greater good!!!1!1!!11oneone"
"OMGWTH u stupid melee nOOb"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can see it all now.
Tau: lol p3w p3w p3w!
Space Marine: FOR THE LULZ!
Chaos SM: PURGE, lol
Ork: FOR TEH HOOOo.. er, WAGH, LOL!
Eldar: IM A SPACE ELF LOL
Dark Eldar: IM A SPACE DARKELF LOL *MOONBEAMS*
Imperial Guard: STORM TEH FORNT
Sisters of Battle: LOL IM 14 YRS OLD MY CHAR HAS BOOBIES LOOOOOOOOOOL!!!!!!!!!!!
The PlanetSide model is okay, but I don't really see how you could get much character development by that route. I would love to see it as a PvP instance deal, alongside a more rich environment.
Perhaps a way to reconcile the two is to force players to become ultra specialized. For instance, within the Chaos forces you would have to first choose your allegiance to a god, then what vehicle/weapon you want to specialize in. In that way you could become adept at motorcycles or driving a particular tank, or wielding a specific heavy weapon... So if each race and "sub-race" (chapters, allegiances, orders, etc.) was so diverse it would force players of the same specialty to group together and "guilds" to form balanced armies. This system would still leave room for evolution within a specialty, for instance as an Eldar you could begin by piloting a jetbike, then move up to a vyper if you can cooperate with one other person and even move up to a falcon if you cooperate with 2 or 3 others. This would make for teamwork at a small and large scale, and also provide a wide variety of "careers" to aim for.
What do you think?
Look at the current crop of MMOs with their daffy reliance on the holy trinity. How often do you see groups sitting about waiting for a tank or healer instead of having fun in the game because those two classes are less popular?
The simple fact is that if you make a game that relies on roles, one or more of those roles will be less popular than the rest and it breaks because supply will never meet demand.
The sooner games move away from this ancient idiocy we call class interdependence, the better.
"oh people have been using it for years! It must work!", yeah because using asbestos for insulation was a brilliant idea.
What do you think?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lets take SM as an example:
After character generation you start as a scout in a SM outpost.
You do your first assignments (scouting and killing critters) until you are promoted to scout sergeant.
As sarge you can lead a whole squad of scouts (either player, or pc controled).
You do a few more missions (more scouting and fighting the other races (most likely orcs, cause they spore everywhere) until you finally get your last modifications and become a full grown SM.
Cause you are a normal SM you cannot control a SM squad yet, but because you cannot do any solo scouting as SM, you go to mission briefings, enter a thunderhawk and then you land via drop-pod in the fighting zone, with lots of other players. Here you are fighting alongside player controlled SMs against player controlled xenos.
When being taken out an apothecari rescues you and you are send back to your base. After having spend enough time on the battlefield (or killed enough xenos, whatever) you are promoted to SM sergeant and can now lead a squad of SMs into battle.
As SM sergeant you can now join a chapter(clan)! More to that below.
As sarge, you can join mission briefings and join battles via thunderhawk/drop-pod, but you now can control a whole Squad of SMs (either pc controlled or player controlled).
After you have gained enough experience as SM sarge, you gain access to vehicles training. Complete vehicles training and you can go to mission briefings and enter the big battles in a vehicle. In order to avoid that lategame everyone will be driving a landraider, you need to fill a vehicle-meter, by fighting on foot. If you want to join a battle in a landraider, you need to have a full vehcile bar, (for a predator you need a 75% filled vehicle bar) when you are in a vehicle your vehicle bar is depleting at a moderate speed. If you die (vehicle gets destroyed) and your bar is under the vehicle requirement you need to fight on foot for some time, to get your vehicle bar filling up again.
This could be the solo and free for all part. (of course you can earn medals and equipment and skillpoints and blablablub on the battlefield)
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Chapters (clans)
Chapters can fight for control over planets (they cannot fight over the planets, where the freeforall battles are taking place)
A chapter is the only place, where you get to play certain characters (commander,chaplains,psionics etc).
A chapter gains reinforcement points, depending on the number of players they have, planets (some planets can net more than others) they control and other factors (yet to be determined).
So lets say, that the glorious iron falcons want to attack Daidolus Prime, which is currently controled by a dark eldar clan know as the harbringers. The clan leaders now sent an attack force, which consits of the chapters 2nd company and 20000 ressource points. The players of the 2nd company now decide BEFORE they are sent to the planet, which vehicles they want to take into battle etc etc...
Lets say they "buy" 2 landraiders 110 SMs, 1 assassin and 3 trikes for the 20000 points.
These units are now sent to the planet. Space travel will take about 2 days RL.
The leaders of the defending dark eldar clan now gain a message, that a space marine force of medium size is apprroaching they planet xy. Depending on how good their intel is, they might even know the exact number of attackers etc. The dark eldar clan now assign ressource points and troops of their own to defend the planet. The planet could also have prebuilt defences, like orbital shield, that buy some time and prevent bombardments or artillery or defense towers etc etc.
When the attacking force arrives at the planet they can see certain number of battlefields (not more than 6?).
They attacking/defending forces can now deploy units to the battlefields and fight over control. Once the attackers control 5 or more provinces, they can disable the orbital shield and start bombarding the remaining defenders.
If the attackers kill of all defenders and have more than 5000 ressource points left, they can take control over the planet.
If all attackers die, they dont get control over the planet.
If the attackers kill all defenders, but have less than 5000 ressource points left, they cannot take control the planet, but they can purge it with an orbital bombardments, reducing the number of ressources the planet produces, for 2-3 weeks(RL).
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In order to avoid big clans beating on small clans, small clans get the option to simply pay 10% of the planets ressource income to the big clan for 1 week in order to avoid invasion.
EXPANDABLE...
To sum it up:
Big free for all battlefields for the beginners/solo players (you fight alongside your race vs another race)
Clans fight over control of ressource yielding planets. (mix of round based strategy/browser games and RPG/RTS)
Cool stuff.
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As great as that sounds imagine the amount of coordination that would require. 100 SM's attack a single planet at the same time, while someone tries to keep the children coordinated? Yeah, compare that to finding 40 decent players to raid some endgame raid instance.
I think any game that relies on <b>people</b> to fill specific roles is inherently flawed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'll have to agree with that. And expanding on that, everyone needs to fill a small role (basically just don't go "LULZ" as the Space marine, or medieval fighter...), and I think why MMOs generally tend to lack immersion completely - you can't really get the depth there when people do not act accordingly - and problem is, depth is, imho at least, is what makes RPGs good. Somewhat the same can be said about WH40k, though it's more of a tabletop game - but the world is cool because the depth its lore has :X *shrug*
As great as that sounds imagine the amount of coordination that would require. 100 SM's attack a single planet at the same time, while someone tries to keep the children coordinated? Yeah, compare that to finding 40 decent players to raid some endgame raid instance.
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You would actually need only 12-16 people for a medium sized army, because everyone can control a whole squad of marines. The way I imagine the clan-play 20 players would be minimum to make it playable (20 because you hardly have everyone available all the time). 40 players would be a clan, able to hold several planets and 80-100 players could create massive forces, of 250 units battling at the same time, with ease.
So 12 people could control:
1 Landraider
5 Terminators
24 Space marines
3 Landspeeders
1 Whirlwind
1 HQ
1 Dreadnought
3 Bikes
1 Trike
Thats 1 player for every squad and two for the HQ (1 commanding the HQs abilitys and movements, the other one giving orders)
Take into account that you can bring in reinforcements for ressources, the player number only limits the number of squads on the battlefield at the same time ^^
But yes, it suffers from the classic "you need decent people to play and enjoy it syndrome"
like I said nil, easiest way around it is for Orks and IG be captain units. If you play IG you get to play a commissar who commands a crowd of IG soldiers (kinda like a pet class on crack really) and for Orcs you get to play a Nobz with a bunch of NPC Boyz tagging along with you that you can order about :3
The commissar could even have fun abilities like shooting one of his own men to boost the moral of the rest of them or other such 40k style stuff <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Can you say Wargear? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Edit: <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->Hell, with some of the sides that require more in the way of "mass" you could allow people to control an entire squad of AIs instead of requiring each guy to be player controlled. Possibly allow a hybrid of this and the other idea, so you and 5 friends can control 40+ AIs, or if you happen to have 40 friends, you can each control a guy individually.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
NOTE: TEXT IN YELLOW IS ALL AN ORIGINAL IDEA AND ANY CREDIT NOT GIVEN TO ME IS A DOWNRIGHT INSULT.
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<!--quoteo(post=1610480:date=Mar 1 2007, 09:25 PM:name=Geminosity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Geminosity @ Mar 1 2007, 09:25 PM) [snapback]1610480[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
AI controlled units? What a wonderful idea!
I almost wish I'd thought of it first and made two posts about it already. That would've been fab <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
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Yeah, I was gonna say something about that strange yellow post...
<b>RECAP:</b>
Anyways, if we they want to replicate the tabletop game, I think the mass AI seems like a great route. All characters would be either pilots or sergeants. That way you could either command a battle vehicle, or command a squad of AIs. Due to the massive scale of WH40K, it's almost absolutely necessary to have hundreds of players on the field. Where are you going to find that many people? You don't have to, cause now, you have a personal battle squad to control! Another great point was the instanced battles, or Chapter vs. Chapter. It would keep things simple and would play like a traditional WH40K game. With the right rules, it would also prevent team unbalancing that would very possibly turn up if the game were setup like Planetside.
1. Each player is either a pilot or sergeant (Vehicles or Squad of AIs)
2. Instanced battle to simplify and prevent unbalanced armies
<!--coloro:#999999--><span style="color:#999999"><!--/coloro--><b>Crispy's got the right idea:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#999999--><span style="color:#999999"><!--/coloro-->To expand on the idea, I think that this theory would work really freaking awesome with character development! Pilots would choose their favorite vehicles, and then they could COMPLETELY trick it out with wargear and insignias to their own liking, a completely customizable ride! Squad leaders would be able to distribute wargear and customize their squad's banner. Imagine a newb Space Marine squad leader, he leads a team of SM Scouts. With some EXP, he can determine what weapons to give his team (Sniper, Sword) and maybe even customize his personal wargear. THEN, imagine a high level SM leader who has given his entire team Terminator Suits! From there, he can customize to have Assault or Ranged Terminators! To keep the game balanced, there would be an army point cost system just like in the tabletop game to estimate army strengths!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot, Tau are better than Space Marines.
Don't lie, it's just because the devs plan to ruin the game anyway and cba to read anything that might make it better.
Start out as just another humdrum citizen,
Chracter creation works like SWG's (Since that's really open ended and I loved it.). Once your appearance is chosen, you pick your Perks and Skills (Think Fallout1/2 here.) and select some basic starting equipment. (Knives, pistol, some home-made explosives, maybe a sword or something.) You gain a few levels, get another perk, join a gang(clan, guild, group, etc.) and fight for turf inside the hive.
Hypothetical Space Marine Battle Force:
4 Tactical Squads
1 Scout Squad
2 Rhinos
1 Whirlwind
1 Dreadnought
1 Commander
Total human players: 10
Total playing units: 30
This would be a rather small battle force, but look, you can have a 30 person force with only 10 live players. It is also MUCH easier to control. Because the squad is made of one human and four AI, you won't have a bunch of idiots who don't pay attention. Tactical command would be a breeze, instead of dealing with 29 people, you only deal with 10.
Yah, I see your point that Necromunda would work perfectly, but is that what we need? Yet another MMORPG that follows the same basic play styles all other RPGs have? I think the pilot/squad leader idea that this thread developed is really unique, something no one has done yet. It also fits the tabletop game perfectly too. It just sounds so cool, you end up with AI squads commanded by one human squad leader, and everyone else is a vehicle pilot. Massive scale combat without massive amounts of players!
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How much fun is controlling a squad of guys though? It would take alot of the "twitch" skills people seem to like so much away from combat. The majority of the population doesn't like slow and methodical combat, which is what controlling squads of men would create. Also, telling a group of people where to go is kind of boring....
Trust me, I am not a fan of methodical or intelligent combat either. If this idea were adopted, it would call for some intense AI. <b>This isn't going to be some Tom Clancy game, where you need to be cautious.</b> leave that to the guy who wants to be the Force Commander. Your squad will be intelligent, take cover, and give you elbow room. They wouldn't have to be ordered around, becuase they ALWAYS follow you, no matter what. As a squad leader, you need to do a GOOD deal of fighting because you are the strongest dude in the squad.
Think HL1 bots. Essentially, you don't command a bunch of dummies around. You would play as you normally do in ANY FPS, except this time, you have a team of bots backing you up. The only real control you have over your squad is:
1. Wargear and Equipment
2. Movement of Squad
3. Combat disposition (Assault, Ranged, etc...)
4. "Fun abilities like shooting one of his own men to boost the moral of the rest" - Geminosity
<b>You are a sergeant, not an officer. Combat is your duty, and your men should know what they are doing.</b>
EDIT: It is important to also note that the game maps will be vast and generally open. There might be urban maps, but they will have to be large. Because of the nature of this idea, cramp spaces will ABSOLUTELY wreak havoc on squad manuverability.
Maybe they'll do something <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisitor_%28game%29" target="_blank">Inquisitor</a>-like. That would give them a more RPG-ish out, and it does fit into the 40k IP.
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Ugh, you'd have so many Eisenhorn, Ravenor and anime-styled clones running around it would be ruined.
Edit: Well, in the Ravenor-Clone's case... Rolling around.
Ugh, you'd have so many Eisenhorn, Ravenor and anime-styled clones running around it would be ruined.
Edit: Well, in the Ravenor-Clone's case... Rolling around.
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Heh, I forgot about how many ripoff names there'd be.
"Yarr1ck"
"Y4rrick"
"Y4rr1ck"
"Yarric|<"
and so on.
Somehow, to me, seeing Yarrick say "LOL PWNT!" would be far worse than some random Space Marine saying it.
By default, your squad would simply follow you around, shooting at enemies they see and taking cover nearby when you stop moving. That could be "defensive posture." In offensive posture, your troops would be more aggressive, willing to move further away from you to engage the enemy and so on. Passive posture would be like defensive posture, except your units would never open fire by themselves, only returning fire and shooting at targets you shoot at (good for when the enemy hasn't spotted you and you want to lay low while moving into a favourable position). Just these three postures, with one button for each (F1, F2, F3) would already offer you decent control without interfering with your own "twitch" game.
Next, you could add context-sensitive commands. Aim at the enemy Rhino and press "use" and your three bazzukka-boyz will engage and attempt to destroy it, overriding their "posture."
Actually, if you've played Republic Commando, all of this already makes sense to you, and I'm preaching to the choir. And if you haven't, go play Republic Commando. It's a good game, and all of this will make sense to you then.
In short, an MMOFPS where you command a small squad of AI troops could definitely work, without being all micromanagement and no twitch. The biggest challenges would be making sure that the AI troops work well: Good pathfinding, no standing with the back to the enemy while the player frantically tries to get them to turn around, that kind of thing. At the same time, it's very important not to de-emphasize the player's role in this. In a battle between four players, each with 25 AI units under their command, the human players would only make up a small percentage of the units on the battlefield, but they should still be the decisive factor in the fight.
BAD SHOCKWAVE, NO, BAD.
Heh, I forgot about how many ripoff names there'd be.
"Yarr1ck"
"Y4rrick"
"Y4rr1ck"
"Yarric|<"
and so on.
Somehow, to me, seeing Yarrick say "LOL PWNT!" would be far worse than some random Space Marine saying it. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Screw Yarrick, my char would be "teh3mperor"
Seriously, that would be comic gold.
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Which is what is putting me off WarHammer:Online. GW has gone through a phase where <i>everything</i> must be 'Dark & Gothic', so much so that there's no contrast. Watch the cinematic they've released, it takes itself waaay too seriously for a game.
- Shockwave
Which is what is putting me off WarHammer:Online. GW has gone through a phase where <i>everything</i> must be 'Dark & Gothic', so much so that there's no contrast. Watch the cinematic they've released, it takes itself waaay too seriously for a game.
- Shockwave
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I don't think an orc loading himself in a catapult and firing himself towards a dwarven fortress, screaming, with bloodlust in his eyes, only to go SPLAT on the wall, is taking itself waaaaay to seriously.
I don't think an orc loading himself in a catapult and firing himself towards a dwarven fortress, screaming, with bloodlust in his eyes, only to go SPLAT on the wall, is taking itself waaaaay to seriously.
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Two possible debates:
Orcs have always been the 'comedy' race. They were the light heated alternative in WHFB. But that comedy was about vicious, brutal Orcs cohabiting with sneaky, occasionally comedic Goblins and food sources just as likely to eat you first, in the shape of Squigs. The Orcs aren't, and weren't in that cinematic, the slightest bit funny.
Debate #2:
Clearly, there's a massive difference between 'waaaaay' and 'waaay'. 'Waaaay' would have struck a happy medium.
- Shockwave
Two possible debates:
Orcs have always been the 'comedy' race. They were the light heated alternative in WHFB. But that comedy was about vicious, brutal Orcs cohabiting with sneaky, occasionally comedic Goblins and food sources just as likely to eat you first, in the shape of Squigs. The Orcs aren't, and weren't in that cinematic, the slightest bit funny.
Debate #2:
Clearly, there's a massive difference between 'waaaaay' and 'waaay'. 'Waaaay' would have struck a happy medium.
- Shockwave
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I would have just argued its war. You do anything to win.