And the reason they're illegal in the U.K. is? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1653848:date=Oct 3 2007, 06:23 PM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thansal @ Oct 3 2007, 06:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1653848"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Look at it this way: Dogs that attack some one are generally Killed (I hate the term destroyed or any other euphemisms for killing), thus removing them from the breeding population. If Pit Bulls were really such evil tempered dogs, then the population would have either been culled to near extinction, or the trait would have been culled out by now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What? No. Just, no way ever. That's.. NO.
A: If for the last 20 years every recorded pitbull attack ended in the dog being put down, that's about 2000 dead pitbulls(according to my data). So lets say that's 100 pitbulls put down a year, according to <a href="http://www.akc.org/reg/dogreg_stats_2006.cfm" target="_blank">this survey of breed registration</a> there are 1700 pitbulls registered for this year alone. That's not nearly enough death to cause a dramatic change in the gene pool of an entire breed of dog.
B: Most pitbulls aren't even in the breeding population to begin with. They come from a few specialized breeders who use the same few animals for all the breeding, so it doesn't matter whether this genetic "aggression" trait isn't passed to some of the puppies, because they would never have bred anyway.
LikuI, am the Somberlain.Join Date: 2003-01-10Member: 12128Members
<!--quoteo(post=1653838:date=Oct 3 2007, 03:49 PM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DiscoZombie @ Oct 3 2007, 03:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1653838"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wanna know who was attacked by the cocker spaniel, and which 2 people got mauled by poodles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Who and how the ###### was someone killed by a dachshund? <img src="http://www.allpetsradio.com/images/Dachshund.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--quoteo(post=1653848:date=Oct 3 2007, 04:23 PM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thansal @ Oct 3 2007, 04:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1653848"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And do a google for Cocker Rage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's probably some crazy German porn site.
Isn't it imazing how many dog behavioral experts we have in this community? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
MonkfishSonic-boom-inducing buttcheeks of terrifying speed!Join Date: 2003-06-03Member: 16972Members
<!--quoteo(post=1653851:date=Oct 3 2007, 10:30 PM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Oct 3 2007, 10:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1653851"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And the reason they're illegal in the U.K. is? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because they're dangerous and vicous, and the type of people who own them are the kind you wouldn't want to meet on a brightly lit street in the middle of the day with CCTV camera's pointed at you.
<!--quoteo(post=1653851:date=Oct 3 2007, 11:30 PM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Oct 3 2007, 11:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1653851"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And the reason they're illegal in the U.K. is? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A kid got injured because one got out of a cage in the back garden. The kid went to retrieve a lost ball without permission. The dogs did their job, the law put them down and banned the dogs entirely in the nation for one miscreant child.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1653845:date=Oct 3 2007, 06:15 PM:name=Xyth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Xyth @ Oct 3 2007, 06:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1653845"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First, it was my link ;p
Second: that is one hell of a nitpick, look at the numbers. Pitbulls make up 50% of the total dog attacks. 50%!! That's ONE breed by itself! The per capita statistics shouldn't even be neccessary, just look! Even if there were 50x as many pitbulls in circulation as any other dog (which is just an outlandish claim) they would still be more dangerous then any other breed (aside from rottweilers). Or, to respond to your other complaint: if each pitbull was responsible for 4 attacks (pretty ridiculous, I think the rule is 3 attacks and you have to put it down) they are EVEN THEN higher then any other breed in terms of attack.
edit: and here's a link to give you an idea, top 10 most popular breeds (note the <i>complete absence</i> of the pitbull). <a href="http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=0&cat=2041&articleid=3468" target="_blank">Most popular breeds</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yup, those are the AKC numbers. AKC doesn't have a listing for Pit Bulls, or mixed breeds. (aka, the rankings only cover officially licensed AKC approved breeds)
TBH, what I am asking for IS impossible. There are no records for dog bites. That report is the work of one person gathering data from press reports. YES, there is a higher number of attacks in Pit Bulls, but the argument that "Pit Bulls are then evil and must all be killed" does NOT follow.
However, Xyth, you are right, I retract my statement, I forgot that most dogs do come from breeders. Oh, and most places it is 2 bites and you are dead.
Again, I am not arguing that pit bulls are dangerous, I am arguing that it doesn't come down to "BAN AND KILL PIT BULLS", it comes down to making people be responsible for the actions of their dogs, and actually requiring people to have knowledge to own a dog.
How about a dog license? you have to go through a GOOD set of training sessions, pay a nominal (not prohibitive) fee, and license any dog you own. Kinda like a drivers license or a gun license.
hey, we can even have increments! Do it by weight, make exceptions for dogs known to have aggressive traits, etc.
so Paris Hilton wana bes can have their toy dogs (be it poodle, chihuahua, wiener dog, what have you) can. And those of us that like our husky mutts can, but have to prove we are capable.
<!--quoteo(post=1653857:date=Oct 3 2007, 05:40 PM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Oct 3 2007, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1653857"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow, to bad the U.S. doesn't do likewise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sarcasm... meter... cannot... contain... AAAAAH
What's worse is that Depot isn't even being sarcastic D:
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1653854:date=Oct 3 2007, 06:37 PM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Oct 3 2007, 06:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1653854"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Isn't it imazing how many dog behavioral experts we have in this community? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
umm, actually, this time I get to claim to be one!
Behavioral psychology was one of my studies in college (combined with a parent that teaches it). Owned animals my entire life (2 dogs, 2 cats, 3 birds, 2 hermit craps, several fish, an iguana, and a rabbit). Worked for a Dog care center. Worked for a vet.
HEY HEY!
Oh, and never been bitten.
Once had to control a berserk dog at the Vet, but even there, the worst I got was having fecal matter all over my shirt.
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1653842:date=Oct 3 2007, 11:03 PM:name=Scythe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Scythe @ Oct 3 2007, 11:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1653842"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The data is probably also skewed by the fact that the sort of people likely to mistreat dogs are also the kind that want a "big manly dog" like a pit bull or a rhodesian ridgeback. Vicious circle.
--Scythe--<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was waiting for someone to finally point this out. You don't see many skinheads owning poodles and encouraging them to attack people on sight. Hell, even my grandad's brother used to own a dog that he constantly set on other people's pets, just because he liked to watch them fight. And it was a pit bull. Which he got because it looked mean, or some such nonsense.
<!--quoteo(post=1653851:date=Oct 3 2007, 11:30 PM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Oct 3 2007, 11:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1653851"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And the reason they're illegal in the U.K. is? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
=
<!--quoteo(post=1653856:date=Oct 3 2007, 11:39 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thaldarin @ Oct 3 2007, 11:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1653856"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A kid got injured because one got out of a cage in the back garden. The kid went to retrieve a lost ball without permission. The dogs did their job, the law put them down and banned the dogs entirely in the nation for one miscreant child.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Was mostly just overreaction and media hysteria. The wording of the act specifically bans "Pit Bull Terriers", which is an odd wording, since "Pit Bull" does not mean a particular breed of dog. Woo.
I wasn't trying to say that we should be putting down pitbulls left and right, it just came off that you were saying it's wasn't the dogs fault at all, and that only a bad owner would cause a dog to be dangerous. That's what I was trying to prove otherwise, I stand in the middle of the fence here. Pitbulls are more dangerous then your ordinary dog, but this doesn't justify their eradication that some people seem so keen on. Since in a proper environment they can be just like any other trained animal, that environment is just out of reach for the average person who will buy one. Personally I think pitbulls should be added to the "dangerous animal" registry, and thus require a dangerous animal license (This is the license you need to keep things like poisonous snakes/lions/etc). If somebody really wants one, they can get one.
Depends the pit bull, just because she slept with them and stuff dont mean that she paid them attention. I've grown up with many of my friends pit bulls, their very loving dogs if given the correct attention. I couldn't imagine growing up without them, his pitbulls saved my ass many of times from other wild dogs that ran around by his house.
Another reason she could had been mauled to death is because she owned more than one, and dogs tend to turn a bit wild when they get in packs. I doubt she paid them any attention.
Now from knowing many rott. owners, their much meaner dogs and show far less affection.
<!--quoteo(post=1653857:date=Oct 3 2007, 11:40 PM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Oct 3 2007, 11:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1653857"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow, to bad the U.S. doesn't do likewise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thing is though if your child's stupid enough to go in to a garden with 2 guard-dog pitbulls, they whole heartedly deserve the punishment and long-life maiming and scars for trespassing.
Stupid is as stupid does, or however Forrest Gump put it. Children will be children - they don't listen, they're inquisitive by nature, they think all dogs are cute and cuddly.
I wouldn't wish permanent physical and/or mental damage on any child and I know no one who would. Not even you Thaldy.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1653972:date=Oct 4 2007, 07:09 AM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Oct 4 2007, 07:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1653972"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wouldn't wish permanent physical and/or mental damage on any child and I know no one who would. Not even you Thaldy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I dono, I might wish it on Thaldy.
Any dog can be trained to serve as a guard dog, or made to be violent through neglect. It the breed does not play into it enough warrant banning a specific breed.
Heck, take into account Rage and you end up with most dogs being possible of violence (Rage is not only in Cockers, it was just publisiced in them the most, especially as they seem so unlikely ).
Also, that which is trained, can be untrained.
My current dog (Lucy) is a mutt, however her dominant traits seem to be from some sort of Spitz (possibly husky, but I can't say). Another type that is KNOWN to be violent (take a look at German Sheps. they are used as police dogs for a reason.). When we first got Lucy, she was under 1 year old and had likely been mistreated (we got her from a shelter). She had VERY violent tendencies, and a hatred for young women (it is not uncommon for dogs to show distrust/violence to specific types of humans, generally b/c of mistreatment). She would snap if you got anywhere near her food, she would snap at young women, and when I was walking her she would try to attack me (I was around 14 at the time). However, she was "my" dog, and it was my job to train her. And I did.
She has never bitten anything (human or dog). She will respond to verbal commands. And she has no problems with young women. She will happily be petted by anyone (this is a good thing as she is beautiful, and draws a good amount of attention <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />).
And all of this from a dog that was on its last day in a Kill shelter (Didn't actually get her from the Kill shelter, got her from north shore, a non kill shelter that will take dogs from kill shelters to give them a second chance), who routinely tried to attack me, and could have done SERIOUS damage if she ever managed to bite some one.
There. Dog with violent tendencies, and from at least one 'violent' breed, that is now perfectly sociable (though she is a wuss, and scared silly of big dogs for some unknown reason, as well as cats...).
Basically we are arguing Nature Vs Nurture. And I will always come down that Nurture is far more important then Nature (and I am not dumb enough to say it is all Nurture).
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2007
Gah I missed the word "by" in the title and was all like WTFH!!!*
<!--coloro:#666666--><span style="color:#666666"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->*what the freaking hell<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
But then I read it it again and as all like OMG. Man them dogs are illegal in the Netherlands and will be put to sleep (destroyed?) when someone has them or is breeding them.
I think that should change to licences, it is most of the time the fault of an attack dog (which they basically are) owners, thinking it is a nice dog to have as family pet or just to look cool as in "heh look at me being a thoughguy with my attack dog". In this case a pitbull.
These dogs are dangerous when in incapable hands. I myself don't like them, because of the simple fact that they are looked upon as pets, which they are NOT.
Owner of a German Shepherd (not an American bred one), but a real German Shepherd Have been around German shepheds from when I was a baby (All my life? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />). What the American breeders do to them is also sickening, breeding them to have sloping hips, to make em look good... And as a result have huge hip problems and must be put down due to them being in a lot of pain at around age 7-8. I'm quite outraged that people do that to a dog, just for improving their looks. Not an attack on America, since it could also be they do this in other countries (I don't know, but just stating a fact that breeders do that)
Anyway back to the topic, this was OBVIOUSLY an incompetent owner (SLEEPING WITH DOGS IN THEIR BED!?) getting a dog, which needs a trained owner. These beasts are not pets! I hate stupid people who think they are... Somehow people try to humanize dogs, SCREW THAT, they are dogs and people who do that should be banned from owning a dog for life! This is most likely a humanisation of the pitbulls, they need to have a strong leader not a friend! Now I'm not saying be cruel to your dog, just show them who is boss and put them in their place... Or get a golden retriever kind of dog, which are nice dogs in any case and better suited for people who don't know these things...
[edit] ranting and some outrage might make things obscure or weird in this post. I don't care since I don't feel like rewriting it...
I find mutts are the most intelligent and reliable dogs. they are, by definition, not inbred, while purebreeds are, by definition, inbred. diverse gene pool = more stable creature, not prone to snapping at the drop of a hat.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
edited October 2007
<!--quoteo(post=1653999:date=Oct 4 2007, 09:56 AM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Oct 4 2007, 09:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1653999"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Years ago my daughter bought a yellow lab because she did extensive research on it and found them to be the best with kids. Turned out she was right.
Before that they had adopted a greyhound, ones here that have been retired from racing. NOT a family dog at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, because it had be RAISED to be a race dog, not a pet. I also know plenty of very friendly and calm grey hounds. Trust me, for just about every anecdote you can come up with, I can come up with about 3 showing the reverse. 2 of the friendliest and sweetest dogs I knew? A rottie and a Doberman (Doberman was named 'Sugar' sweet, but demanding <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />). 'Meanest' dog I have known? A Cocker Spaniel. Feeding that dog was a trail and a half.
Oh, and yellow labs == dangerous around kids. They will slobber them to death! Yes, yellow labs are VERY friendly dogs, tend to be slightly spastic and hyper active, but loving. Just beware the slobber.
<!--quoteo(post=1654002:date=Oct 4 2007, 10:03 AM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DiscoZombie @ Oct 4 2007, 10:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1654002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I find mutts are the most intelligent and reliable dogs. they are, by definition, not inbred, while purebreeds are, by definition, inbred. diverse gene pool = more stable creature, not prone to snapping at the drop of a hat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Almost always true, and why I tend to like mutts, and the lack of health problems is VERY nice. That and no one else wants hem, so adopting one often saves it from death row.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2007
Greyhounds are fun if raised as family pet indeed. My dog once thought hey I can catch that dog and play with him, no dice that dog was so fast my dog was running after it and thought "screw that" I'm going home. You could see it on his face, that he was annoyed by this very fast dog as he looked few times in his general direction (now being 250 meters from his location) <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Funny to see that expression on his face. If you know your dog you can read its body language and behavior and act accordingly. Something most people don't do or know about, either because they don't care are just plain stupid (which most of humanity is anyway <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> )
<!--quoteo(post=1654003:date=Oct 4 2007, 10:03 AM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thansal @ Oct 4 2007, 10:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1654003"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, because it had be RAISED to be a race dog, not a pet. I also know plenty of very friendly and calm grey hounds. Trust me, for just about every anecdote you can come up with, I can come up with about 3 showing the reverse. 2 of the friendliest and sweetest dogs I knew? A rottie and a Doberman (Doberman was named 'Sugar' sweet, but demanding <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />). 'Meanest' dog I have known? A Cocker Spaniel. Feeding that dog was a trail and a half.
Oh, and yellow labs == dangerous around kids. They will slobber them to death! Yes, yellow labs are VERY friendly dogs, tend to be slightly spastic and hyper active, but loving. Just beware the slobber. Almost always true, and why I tend to like mutts, and the lack of health problems is VERY nice. That and no one else wants hem, so adopting one often saves it from death row.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I noted that it was a retired racing dog, nowhere did I say greyhounds wouldn't make good pets. There is a glut of them in Florida so unfortunately it's the ex-racers that wind up as pets. Your personal relationship/s with a few different breeds of dogs hardly qualifies you (or anyone else for that matter) as a doggie psycholgist... if you have a background in behavioral psychology, that would apply to humans, silly boy. <img src="http://www.nsmod.org/forums/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Police dogs (at least in Germany) are specifically NOT selected for aggressiveness (and aggressiveness is further trained out of them through the rather lengthy education a police dog goes through). A police dog is supposed to be focused and rational about what it's doing, not aggressive. In fact, police dogs are trained to be in their "playing" mindset when performing their duty (the most common of which is sniffing out narcotics and other illegal substances).
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
edited October 2007
<!--quoteo(post=1654021:date=Oct 4 2007, 10:52 AM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Oct 4 2007, 10:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1654021"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I noted that it was a retired racing dog, nowhere did I say greyhounds wouldn't make good pets. There is a glut of them in Florida so unfortunately it's the ex-racers that wind up as pets. Your personal relationship/s with a few different breeds of dogs hardly qualifies you (or anyone else for that matter) as a doggie psycholgist... if you have a background in behavioral psychology, that would apply to humans, silly boy. <img src="http://www.nsmod.org/forums/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> guess again about the behavioral psychology actually. Most aspects of behavioral psychology apply just as well to humans as they do to other animals. In fact, most of my research has been handled through pigeons (specifically b/c that is the animal that my mum generally uses, and a good portion of my training was under her, she mostly in fact teaches animal behavior, however her other field of specialty is autism). And dogs respond VERY well to the concepts of behavioral psychology. Heck, anyone that has trained a dog know how to perform both Classical and Operant conditioning, they just don't know the terms. Same holds true for parents, just parents have the added advantage that eventually they can actually EXPLAIN why something is good/bad, or ask WHY they did something.
sure, negative reinforcement (removal of a stimulus) does not work all that well on a dog (you can't deprive them of food/water etc, and keeping a constant 15v electrode on them until you do what they want will just make the dog insane). But positive reinforcement (increase/introduction of a stimulus) works wonders with humans and dogs. Be it praise for doing a good job (dogs live for praise), a treat, or even playing ball (yes, sniffing dogs are trained with play as the positive reinforcement). Or a quick correction (aka a pop with a choker) or scolding will VERY quickly stop them from doing undesirables.
Yes, I actually am very familiar with behavioral psychology, more so in animals then in humans <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1654027:date=Oct 4 2007, 11:21 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Oct 4 2007, 11:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1654027"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Police dogs (at least in Germany) are specifically NOT selected for aggressiveness (and aggressiveness is further trained out of them through the rather lengthy education a police dog goes through). A police dog is supposed to be focused and rational about what it's doing, not aggressive. In fact, police dogs are trained to be in their "playing" mindset when performing their duty (the most common of which is sniffing out narcotics and other illegal substances).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> True, however some police dogs (I don't know if all are) ARE trained to attack. However this attack is VERY controlled. Watching a shep go after SPECIFIC body parts on a training partner (dog suits are awesome) is amazing (these targets are generally either arm, leg, or groin if I remember correctly). That training, I don't know how it is done.
However you are 100% correct that the 'reward' a police dog gets for doing his 'job' is play, and in fact doing his job is much more of a game to him then a job.
Although it's common knowledge that dogs respond to "reward and punishment" training much like humans they're an entirely different "breed". Don't forget they communicate in an entirely different language, one which humans do not speak. Humans attempt to analyze animals and have studied their behavior for centuries, yet incidences like this topic still happen far to often.
My suggestion to slaughter all Pit Bulls was made in anger and was of course unreasonable. The U.K.'s position on this is much more feasible - let's ban the SOB's!
<!--quoteo(post=1653999:date=Oct 4 2007, 02:56 PM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Oct 4 2007, 02:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1653999"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Years ago my daughter bought a yellow lab because she did extensive research on it<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You realise animal testing is illegal right?
<!--quoteo(post=1654045:date=Oct 4 2007, 01:00 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thaldarin @ Oct 4 2007, 01:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1654045"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You realise animal testing is illegal right?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why must you single me out? Thansal plays with pigeons! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Comments
Dogs that attack some one are generally Killed (I hate the term destroyed or any other euphemisms for killing), thus removing them from the breeding population. If Pit Bulls were really such evil tempered dogs, then the population would have either been culled to near extinction, or the trait would have been culled out by now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What? No. Just, no way ever. That's.. NO.
A: If for the last 20 years every recorded pitbull attack ended in the dog being put down, that's about 2000 dead pitbulls(according to my data). So lets say that's 100 pitbulls put down a year, according to <a href="http://www.akc.org/reg/dogreg_stats_2006.cfm" target="_blank">this survey of breed registration</a> there are 1700 pitbulls registered for this year alone. That's not nearly enough death to cause a dramatic change in the gene pool of an entire breed of dog.
B: Most pitbulls aren't even in the breeding population to begin with. They come from a few specialized breeders who use the same few animals for all the breeding, so it doesn't matter whether this genetic "aggression" trait isn't passed to some of the puppies, because they would never have bred anyway.
Edit: now with statistics
Who and how the ###### was someone killed by a dachshund?
<img src="http://www.allpetsradio.com/images/Dachshund.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--quoteo(post=1653848:date=Oct 3 2007, 04:23 PM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thansal @ Oct 3 2007, 04:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1653848"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And do a google for Cocker Rage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's probably some crazy German porn site.
Because they're dangerous and vicous, and the type of people who own them are the kind you wouldn't want to meet on a brightly lit street in the middle of the day with CCTV camera's pointed at you.
A kid got injured because one got out of a cage in the back garden. The kid went to retrieve a lost ball without permission. The dogs did their job, the law put them down and banned the dogs entirely in the nation for one miscreant child.
Second: that is one hell of a nitpick, look at the numbers. Pitbulls make up 50% of the total dog attacks. 50%!! That's ONE breed by itself! The per capita statistics shouldn't even be neccessary, just look! Even if there were 50x as many pitbulls in circulation as any other dog (which is just an outlandish claim) they would still be more dangerous then any other breed (aside from rottweilers). Or, to respond to your other complaint: if each pitbull was responsible for 4 attacks (pretty ridiculous, I think the rule is 3 attacks and you have to put it down) they are EVEN THEN higher then any other breed in terms of attack.
edit: and here's a link to give you an idea, top 10 most popular breeds (note the <i>complete absence</i> of the pitbull).
<a href="http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=0&cat=2041&articleid=3468" target="_blank">Most popular breeds</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yup, those are the AKC numbers.
AKC doesn't have a listing for Pit Bulls, or mixed breeds. (aka, the rankings only cover officially licensed AKC approved breeds)
TBH, what I am asking for IS impossible. There are no records for dog bites. That report is the work of one person gathering data from press reports. YES, there is a higher number of attacks in Pit Bulls, but the argument that "Pit Bulls are then evil and must all be killed" does NOT follow.
However, Xyth, you are right, I retract my statement, I forgot that most dogs do come from breeders. Oh, and most places it is 2 bites and you are dead.
Again, I am not arguing that pit bulls are dangerous, I am arguing that it doesn't come down to "BAN AND KILL PIT BULLS", it comes down to making people be responsible for the actions of their dogs, and actually requiring people to have knowledge to own a dog.
How about a dog license?
you have to go through a GOOD set of training sessions, pay a nominal (not prohibitive) fee, and license any dog you own. Kinda like a drivers license or a gun license.
hey, we can even have increments! Do it by weight, make exceptions for dogs known to have aggressive traits, etc.
so Paris Hilton wana bes can have their toy dogs (be it poodle, chihuahua, wiener dog, what have you) can. And those of us that like our husky mutts can, but have to prove we are capable.
Sarcasm... meter... cannot... contain... AAAAAH
What's worse is that Depot isn't even being sarcastic D:
umm, actually, this time I get to claim to be one!
Behavioral psychology was one of my studies in college (combined with a parent that teaches it). Owned animals my entire life (2 dogs, 2 cats, 3 birds, 2 hermit craps, several fish, an iguana, and a rabbit). Worked for a Dog care center. Worked for a vet.
HEY HEY!
Oh, and never been bitten.
Once had to control a berserk dog at the Vet, but even there, the worst I got was having fecal matter all over my shirt.
--Scythe--<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was waiting for someone to finally point this out. You don't see many skinheads owning poodles and encouraging them to attack people on sight. Hell, even my grandad's brother used to own a dog that he constantly set on other people's pets, just because he liked to watch them fight. And it was a pit bull. Which he got because it looked mean, or some such nonsense.
<!--quoteo(post=1653851:date=Oct 3 2007, 11:30 PM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Oct 3 2007, 11:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1653851"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And the reason they're illegal in the U.K. is? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
=
<!--quoteo(post=1653856:date=Oct 3 2007, 11:39 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thaldarin @ Oct 3 2007, 11:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1653856"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A kid got injured because one got out of a cage in the back garden. The kid went to retrieve a lost ball without permission. The dogs did their job, the law put them down and banned the dogs entirely in the nation for one miscreant child.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Was mostly just overreaction and media hysteria. The wording of the act specifically bans "Pit Bull Terriers", which is an odd wording, since "Pit Bull" does not mean a particular breed of dog. Woo.
Another reason she could had been mauled to death is because she owned more than one, and dogs tend to turn a bit wild when they get in packs. I doubt she paid them any attention.
Now from knowing many rott. owners, their much meaner dogs and show far less affection.
Thing is though if your child's stupid enough to go in to a garden with 2 guard-dog pitbulls, they whole heartedly deserve the punishment and long-life maiming and scars for trespassing.
I wouldn't wish permanent physical and/or mental damage on any child and I know no one who would. Not even you Thaldy.
I dono, I might wish it on Thaldy.
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
However, again.
Any dog can be trained to serve as a guard dog, or made to be violent through neglect. It the breed does not play into it enough warrant banning a specific breed.
Heck, take into account Rage and you end up with most dogs being possible of violence (Rage is not only in Cockers, it was just publisiced in them the most, especially as they seem so unlikely ).
Also, that which is trained, can be untrained.
My current dog (Lucy) is a mutt, however her dominant traits seem to be from some sort of Spitz (possibly husky, but I can't say). Another type that is KNOWN to be violent (take a look at German Sheps. they are used as police dogs for a reason.). When we first got Lucy, she was under 1 year old and had likely been mistreated (we got her from a shelter). She had VERY violent tendencies, and a hatred for young women (it is not uncommon for dogs to show distrust/violence to specific types of humans, generally b/c of mistreatment). She would snap if you got anywhere near her food, she would snap at young women, and when I was walking her she would try to attack me (I was around 14 at the time). However, she was "my" dog, and it was my job to train her. And I did.
She has never bitten anything (human or dog). She will respond to verbal commands. And she has no problems with young women. She will happily be petted by anyone (this is a good thing as she is beautiful, and draws a good amount of attention <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />).
And all of this from a dog that was on its last day in a Kill shelter (Didn't actually get her from the Kill shelter, got her from north shore, a non kill shelter that will take dogs from kill shelters to give them a second chance), who routinely tried to attack me, and could have done SERIOUS damage if she ever managed to bite some one.
There. Dog with violent tendencies, and from at least one 'violent' breed, that is now perfectly sociable (though she is a wuss, and scared silly of big dogs for some unknown reason, as well as cats...).
Basically we are arguing Nature Vs Nurture. And I will always come down that Nurture is far more important then Nature (and I am not dumb enough to say it is all Nurture).
<!--coloro:#666666--><span style="color:#666666"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->*what the freaking hell<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
But then I read it it again and as all like OMG. Man them dogs are illegal in the Netherlands and will be put to sleep (destroyed?) when someone has them or is breeding them.
I think that should change to licences, it is most of the time the fault of an attack dog (which they basically are) owners, thinking it is a nice dog to have as family pet or just to look cool as in "heh look at me being a thoughguy with my attack dog". In this case a pitbull.
These dogs are dangerous when in incapable hands. I myself don't like them, because of the simple fact that they are looked upon as pets, which they are NOT.
Owner of a German Shepherd (not an American bred one), but a real German Shepherd Have been around German shepheds from when I was a baby (All my life? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />). What the American breeders do to them is also sickening, breeding them to have sloping hips, to make em look good... And as a result have huge hip problems and must be put down due to them being in a lot of pain at around age 7-8. I'm quite outraged that people do that to a dog, just for improving their looks. Not an attack on America, since it could also be they do this in other countries (I don't know, but just stating a fact that breeders do that)
Anyway back to the topic, this was OBVIOUSLY an incompetent owner (SLEEPING WITH DOGS IN THEIR BED!?) getting a dog, which needs a trained owner. These beasts are not pets! I hate stupid people who think they are... Somehow people try to humanize dogs, SCREW THAT, they are dogs and people who do that should be banned from owning a dog for life! This is most likely a humanisation of the pitbulls, they need to have a strong leader not a friend! Now I'm not saying be cruel to your dog, just show them who is boss and put them in their place... Or get a golden retriever kind of dog, which are nice dogs in any case and better suited for people who don't know these things...
[edit]
ranting and some outrage might make things obscure or weird in this post. I don't care since I don't feel like rewriting it...
Before that they had adopted a greyhound, ones here that have been retired from racing. NOT a family dog at all.
Before that they had adopted a greyhound, ones here that have been retired from racing. NOT a family dog at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, because it had be RAISED to be a race dog, not a pet. I also know plenty of very friendly and calm grey hounds. Trust me, for just about every anecdote you can come up with, I can come up with about 3 showing the reverse. 2 of the friendliest and sweetest dogs I knew? A rottie and a Doberman (Doberman was named 'Sugar' sweet, but demanding <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />). 'Meanest' dog I have known? A Cocker Spaniel. Feeding that dog was a trail and a half.
Oh, and yellow labs == dangerous around kids. They will slobber them to death! Yes, yellow labs are VERY friendly dogs, tend to be slightly spastic and hyper active, but loving. Just beware the slobber.
<!--quoteo(post=1654002:date=Oct 4 2007, 10:03 AM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DiscoZombie @ Oct 4 2007, 10:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1654002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I find mutts are the most intelligent and reliable dogs. they are, by definition, not inbred, while purebreeds are, by definition, inbred. diverse gene pool = more stable creature, not prone to snapping at the drop of a hat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Almost always true, and why I tend to like mutts, and the lack of health problems is VERY nice. That and no one else wants hem, so adopting one often saves it from death row.
Funny to see that expression on his face. If you know your dog you can read its body language and behavior and act accordingly. Something most people don't do or know about, either because they don't care are just plain stupid (which most of humanity is anyway <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> )
Oh, and yellow labs == dangerous around kids. They will slobber them to death! Yes, yellow labs are VERY friendly dogs, tend to be slightly spastic and hyper active, but loving. Just beware the slobber.
Almost always true, and why I tend to like mutts, and the lack of health problems is VERY nice. That and no one else wants hem, so adopting one often saves it from death row.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I noted that it was a retired racing dog, nowhere did I say greyhounds wouldn't make good pets. There is a glut of them in Florida so unfortunately it's the ex-racers that wind up as pets. Your personal relationship/s with a few different breeds of dogs hardly qualifies you (or anyone else for that matter) as a doggie psycholgist... if you have a background in behavioral psychology, that would apply to humans, silly boy. <img src="http://www.nsmod.org/forums/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
In fact, police dogs are trained to be in their "playing" mindset when performing their duty (the most common of which is sniffing out narcotics and other illegal substances).
guess again about the behavioral psychology actually. Most aspects of behavioral psychology apply just as well to humans as they do to other animals. In fact, most of my research has been handled through pigeons (specifically b/c that is the animal that my mum generally uses, and a good portion of my training was under her, she mostly in fact teaches animal behavior, however her other field of specialty is autism). And dogs respond VERY well to the concepts of behavioral psychology. Heck, anyone that has trained a dog know how to perform both Classical and Operant conditioning, they just don't know the terms. Same holds true for parents, just parents have the added advantage that eventually they can actually EXPLAIN why something is good/bad, or ask WHY they did something.
sure, negative reinforcement (removal of a stimulus) does not work all that well on a dog (you can't deprive them of food/water etc, and keeping a constant 15v electrode on them until you do what they want will just make the dog insane). But positive reinforcement (increase/introduction of a stimulus) works wonders with humans and dogs. Be it praise for doing a good job (dogs live for praise), a treat, or even playing ball (yes, sniffing dogs are trained with play as the positive reinforcement). Or a quick correction (aka a pop with a choker) or scolding will VERY quickly stop them from doing undesirables.
Yes, I actually am very familiar with behavioral psychology, more so in animals then in humans <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1654027:date=Oct 4 2007, 11:21 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Oct 4 2007, 11:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1654027"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Police dogs (at least in Germany) are specifically NOT selected for aggressiveness (and aggressiveness is further trained out of them through the rather lengthy education a police dog goes through). A police dog is supposed to be focused and rational about what it's doing, not aggressive.
In fact, police dogs are trained to be in their "playing" mindset when performing their duty (the most common of which is sniffing out narcotics and other illegal substances).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, however some police dogs (I don't know if all are) ARE trained to attack. However this attack is VERY controlled. Watching a shep go after SPECIFIC body parts on a training partner (dog suits are awesome) is amazing (these targets are generally either arm, leg, or groin if I remember correctly). That training, I don't know how it is done.
However you are 100% correct that the 'reward' a police dog gets for doing his 'job' is play, and in fact doing his job is much more of a game to him then a job.
My suggestion to slaughter all Pit Bulls was made in anger and was of course unreasonable. The U.K.'s position on this is much more feasible - let's ban the SOB's!
You realise animal testing is illegal right?
Why must you single me out? Thansal plays with pigeons! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />