Natural Selection 2 News Update - Unknown Worlds Podcast #16 - Q&A
Flayra
Game Director, Unknown Worlds EntertainmentSan Francisco Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 3Super Administrators, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer
Game Director, Unknown Worlds EntertainmentSan Francisco Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 3Super Administrators, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer
Comments
While I agree that the comm shouldnt do direct damage, I personaly dont see a problem with a build up then damage over time. Like the ground starts to look like its electrafing then after like 3-4 sec, any aliens on the ground (in a small area) get dmged (x damage per sec). Then its not "I kill you" but can still be used defensivly or offensivly.
Anyway. Listening to the cast, the squad system and connected respawn system sounds really cool, especially for casual play. But when I think about it, that could get very difficult for competitive style play. I think having respawning assignments function automatically, with no player input at all, would be very frustrating to an organized team. From the brief description in the cast, I can imagine your best shotgunner getting spawned in, and being tied to your node crew. Which would be very frustrating, because sometimes your squad assigns would work perfectly for the players on your team, and sometimes they wouldn't. As a whole, team performance would end up very random because of it.
Marine squad system sounds awesome. Would this then mean that the NS2 equivalent of IPs would then limit the number of squads instead of directly limiting the rate of spawning? Ie 2 IPs = 2 squads and thus 2 mobile spawn points? I think it would be nice to give atleast the comm if not marines themselves the ability to override the automated squad selection. I can imagine I would get very frustrated if I was unable to play with a particular friend, and I'd say clanners would feel the same frustration if a specific strategy was prevented by forced automated squad selection.
I didn't really understand whether or not you meant marines would get to spend from the same pool as the commander when buying weaponry. Part of what makes current marine gameplay more powerful in resource starved situations is that the commander can withhold equipment for marines in order to spend on res towers instead. Will marines get a personal resource pool or something?
As for commander spells, I agree that it would be a tad harsh to leave players on the ground unable to counter harmful spells from the enemy commander. I believe that commander-damage should remain indirect: ie turret placement, electrification res towers, etc. While we're on about commander-workloads and aoe effects, have you considered turning med/ammo/cat pack drops into small aoe effects too? Ie one click heals a particular squad instead of having to sit there aiming for marines individually while they dodge skulks.
*Music at good volume*
Charlie: Hello. Today is Friday February 1st and welcome to the Unknown Worlds podcast. I’m Charlie and with me is Max.
Max: Hi
Charlie: as usual, my partner in crime.
<b>NS2 on Store Shelves? On Consoles? </b>
Max: We thought this week we would do some responses to some questions that were posted on the forums. One thing that people have asked about a couple times in the forums is whether or not Natural Selection 2 will be on the store shelves.
Charlie: Which I guess we know what we want, but do we have an answer for that?
Max: No, we don’t have an answer, but it’s definitely an option that we’re gonna consider.
Charlie: I think we want it, I mean the 360 version we would love as well, I think it’s probably largely a question of… Two big risks I see are the engine licensing costs, which is quite expensive in Source’s case, and making the commander mode work with the console controller. Those are the two big worries that I have.
Max: Yeah, well those are two separate issues: retail and X-box
Charlie: Oh yeah, that’s true
Max: I would say retail is definitely something we’ll investigate after Steam release
Charlie: That’s true: two different things
Max: It seems like pretty much all upside, so that’s something we will investigate. 360 is something we are interested in thinking about, but it’s not really a priority at the moment.
Charlie: Right.
Max: It might be something we look at after we finished Natural Selection 2 on the PC
Charlie: Yeah, we will definitely focus on online PC first, get that out there, and then worry about other stuff later. But I would love… in fact, if I can afford a 360 you know that would be the first step. I would love to play it on a 360, personally.
Max: Yeah it would be great. I would finally have a great game to play on my 360.
Charlie: Gears, come on, what about Gears?!
Max: It doesn’t appeal to me
Charlie: No? OK. Too violent?
Max: No, just not appealing
Charlie: Ok. It’s like I want to not like that game, but I have to say, every time I’ve played it I can’t put the controller down. It’s pretty rare for me. The chainsaw thing, I don’t know.
<b>Great Game and Commercially Successful Game (2:41)</b>
Max: Along those lines, another question that was posted is, are we aiming to make a great game or a commercially successful game? And I think the idea there is that…
Charlie: It’s not the exact question, right? “… or also a commercially successful game?â€
Max: Well, see the answer to that question is obvious, though.
Charlie: Well, that’s true, yeah.
Max: Of course we want to make a great game that is also commercially successful.
Charlie: True
Max: I believe the motivation behind that question is that people generally feel that those are mutually exclusive
Charlie: Right, which of course they are not.
Max: I don’t think they are. Although probably in a lot of cases there is a tradeoff there, where people try to appeal to the largest audience and sacrifice maybe some interesting bits of the game or depth or whatever. But, I would say, for Natural Selection 2 they are definitely not mutually exclusive, because the scale of what we’re doing, being commercially successful is a lot different than being commercially successful for…
Charlie: … a $40 million game
Max: … for Madden 2008 or whatever. We don’t need to sell nearly as many copies to be in really good shape, so our goal is basically to make a great game and we think it’s going to be commercially successful if we do that.
Charlie: Right. I would also add that, a little bit less so for NS2 than compared to the future types of games we are going to make, but we do want to make games for the world. Our mission statement or ‘blah blah’ is to unite the world through play.
Max: There is something we talked, I think we talked about in previous podcasts, about the idea that to make a game that has a broader appeal you have to dumb it down or make a lowest common denominator experience, which I personally don’t think is true.
Charlie: You do have to watch the gameplay ramp and difficulty and that stuff very carefully, but
Max: … but that doesn’t mean „dumb down.“ That just means you can ease into it.
Charlie: Correct, look at „Star Craft.“ Star Craft is super complex and still appeals to tons of people because the difficulty ramp is spot on
Max: Yeah, even World of Warcraft is a complicated game; there is a lot of stuff there. A lot more than you would consider generally think casual gamer or …
Charlie: Right, it doesn’t have to be bejeweled.
Max: So I don’t think they are mutually exclusive and I hope that we make a great and commercially successful game.
Charlie: yeah, agreed.
Max: Although if I had to choose, I’d just go for commercially successful.
Charlie: You would? That’s a tough one, if you had to choose, ‘cause if you don’t make it commercially successful, then you won’t make another game. But then again, if you don’t make a good game, in the first place, then what’s the point of making games at all? That’s an enigma.
Max: I guess, yes – being showered with money. Of course if you want to do that, then making games probably isn’t the best route.
Charlie: That’s probably true, except in our case – if any of our investors are listening.
Max: I heard this quote about how to make a small fortune in the farming industry. And the way you do that is by starting with a large fortune.
Charlie: I see
Max: And I think the same thing applies to making games, but hopefully not in our case.
<b>Marine Weapon Buying – No Classes (6:24)</b>
Charlie: Nice, it’s an apt analogy. Yeah, not for us. Let’s see, another question: marine classes and weapons buying. So the question I guess was how will the marines buy weapons or what types of things they can buy?
Max: Yeah, I think just more information on something we talked about before, which is having the marines able to buy their own weapons and also whether or not it would mean that there would be classes in the game for marines, like in a traditional game where you choose a role and you get a certain load-out for it.
Charlie: I definitely don’t see a class system in NS – not for the marines. The aliens always basically had a class system, but I always liked the idea kind of the Tribes model, where your role is dictated by the equipment that you’re carrying.
Max: Kind of like an ad hoc class system.
Charlie: Yeah, more flexible. It’s flexible, of course you don’t have the specialization that you do when you choose a class, ‘cause you can have like the spy, who we know has really specialized moves or has damage dealt to him in a totally different way or something. So see them buying their own equipment and customizing themselves that way instead of through classes.
Max: Right, although if you wanted to, you could still do those things through the equipment – a lot of it. You can have large differentiators. Like in Natural Selection 1, the Heavy versus the Light is not a significant difference other than speed and armor.
Charlie: Right.
Max: But you could give the Heavy and additional ability or something, kind of like Planetside, where you can lock down and basically become a human turret.
Charlie: Yeah, so I think how that works with the commander is he will basically be unlocking technology and opening up nodes in the tech tree and then once a node is open then marines on the ground can access new equipment. So, the commander can allow heavy machine guns; he spends the cash to research that, and once it completes, the guys on the ground can buy heavy machineguns. That’s the basic idea.
Max: [uh hmm in agreement]
<b>Team size balance and Resource model</b>
Charlie: And team size and balance. So the question is: is NS2 going to be balanced like NS1? Well, NS1 was balanced for 6v6, and will NS2 be the same? And that thankfully is not the case. Let’s see, ok, how do I describe this? The new resource model, which I don’t want to describe yet, because I don’t know if it will work, that will actually allow the economy to be the same at all levels. The way it worked in NS1, how the resources were split up among the alien team, the team size actually affected the flow of resources into your teammates. So that actually totally changed the pace of the game and I think there are some other reasons. The resources for aliens were divided among many pools instead of the marines, where it was all in one pool, then you could fall below a threshold of technology, you fall below a threshold that you need, a minimum threshold, more often. Does that make any sense? It’s really hard to describe. If it costs 10 resources to build something and you have 10 among the whole team, but not among any one person, then you can’t buy that thing, whereas on the marine side, you could buy that thing. And if that’s a resources tower, then the aliens can no longer get resources. So it kind of had all these invisible boundaries all over the place in NS1 and so I think that will all be fixed for 2. So, the game will not be balanced for one particular team size, and it should work for all team sizes, probably anywhere from 2v2 to 16v16. And let’s see what else we have here.
<b>Commander “Spellsâ€</b>
Max: We’ve talked about the commander having some more active abilities, kind of like in Natural Selection 1, there is the scanner sweep, which is something he actively does or dropping med packs. And we want to expand that role. We call them, the game design term is “spells,†that you might have.
Charlie: Spells, yeah – not fantasy, but...
Max: I don’t even know how it’s really like a spell.
Charlie: Well, it’s ‘cause you’re casting it, it’s an area affect – it’s kinda like magic, you know?
Max: Yeah, something like you might see in Warcraft 3.
Charlie: Yeah, exactly. So the question is will there be direct damage spells, or buff, or debuffs? And I think, I don’t really like the idea of the commander inflicting damage on people. I always thought it was strange and, i think, feel really arbitrary and unfair to people on the ground, so I don’t think the commander will be inflicting direct damage, but will be increasing the effectiveness of his teammates and probably decreasing the effectiveness of the enemies, but probably less so than the former. ‘Cause if you’re on the ground you don’t want to feel like there is nothing you can do to prevent a situation. So I think that’s why you want to put the focus on helping your teammates instead of hurting your enemies. That’s my thought at least.
Max: [uh hmm in agreement]
<b>Encouraging Team Play: Squad Spawning System, Better Waypoints, See Commander’s Actions (12:01)</b>
Charlie: And let’s see, “how are we building team play into gameplay of NS2…†so I guess the question is “…so it happens automatically and not just among highly organized play like tournament play?†And we do have a bunch of ideas there.
Max: I think you would agree with this. Our goal is to take essentially the kind of play you would see in an organized tournament play and bring that to random internet public game
Charlie: totally
Max: Obviously it’s a difficult thing and probably not something we can fully realize, but hopefully, we can close the gap there. At least for me I always found that to be the most rewarding way to play multiplayer games, when everyone is really coordinated and working together and everyone has their role
Charlie: I couldn’t agree more. Yeah
Max: So how are we doing it?
Charlie: How are we doing it? That’s a good question. Well it’s a whole bunch of UI work – interface work that is – and a lot of the game mechanics will be built around this. So one example is, I believe – again, I don’t know – all the squads will be automatic, so the commander doesn’t have to select a group of players and make a squad – it will just happen. So, any group of people that is around each other will automatically form into red squad or blue squad and they just become a team. And then if you die as a marine, you respawn back with your squad, so you stay with your squad.
Max: So it encourages people to work together and stay together
Charlie: and you get that team feeling. There are times in NS, where I’m having this really great moment where I’ve got some guy with a welder busting open a door, I’m guarding, we built up our inventory just right, we all planned our role verbally and then it happened and then I died, what felt like randomly on the way to this hive and I get really angry because I missed out on that really special moment. And if we have the squad spawning system, then you won’t miss out – you’ll be back in business.
Max: Yeah, like Halo.
Charlie: They do that, yeah.
Max: it would really ruin the cooperative play in the original Halo, I assume the have some other model in the other Halos, where you, I don’t know, would have to go to beginning of the level when your friend died.
Charlie: Yeah, totally destroys co-op.
Max: But that model: you have to get to a safe state and then you can respawn in
Charlie: it penalizes you, but keeps you as a team – it gives you tension. Yeah, so we’re going to have a whole bunch of gameplay elements like that.
Max: I think that’s part of it: to encourage people to cooperate, you have to give them the tools that make it easy for them to cooperate, so that cooperating is easier than not cooperating. Like, for example one thing that I am very interested in, and something I actually wanted to do for NS1, but we never got around to it, was a better way-pointing system, where when the commander actually drops a waypoint, it will show you in the world where you need to go. Kind of like a faint overlay that would show you the route that you need to go through world to get there.
Charlie: And not just a route, but hopefully the best route.
Max: Yeah, I guess it would be like an <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103742&view=findpost&p=1670348" target="_blank">OnStar </a> or whatever.
Charlie: Yeah, exactly, like “Turn left here. Enter this vent. Bite marine to your right. Twelve meters“ Yeah, I think it would be really cool if you are a skulk and you want to find a way how to get somewhere, your waypoint would show you: get through the vent. Like “run up this wall, go in here.†And if you’re a lerk it would show “fly over this chasm†and you know [inaudible]
Max: or go here, evolve to a lerk, fly over the chasm
Charlie: There you go, that would probably be a little much. Yeah, that’s a great example, at least as far as I am concerned, that’s a definite. So we just have to make sure that you can see what’s happening with your team – that might actually include seeing where you commander is. I think it’s a problem with NS, ‘cause you don’t really know where the commander is or what he or she is doing. If you have a little more visibility there, you might be able to coordinate better. Even an idea of how much work and how much pressure the commander is under you might give him a little more slack and wait patiently by the resource node.
Max: Ok, so that wraps up the questions.
Charlie: Hopefully you heard the answer to your question and thanks for asking them and we’ll see you next time.
Max: bye
With that said, encouraging teamwork through intuitive gameplay is a great idea, I hope you explore it in more depth.
lol @ the tomtom reference. Wish my gps would tell me when to bite marines while I was driving.
In all fairness though, very few questions were answered, and even less issues were addressed. It's you guys' decision when to unveil anything, but I'd prefer to think that the Q&A batch on the forums isn't nearly considered "answered", because most of the questions that were on my mind, personally speaking, are still here after listening to this latest podcast.
In any case, thanks for the replies in general. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
EDIT:
I hope the commander can build doors too btw.
"Hopefully you heard the answer to your question" - Yes, I've heard answers to 4 of my questions!! Unfortunately, this means that others' questions weren't answered. It seems like you chose not to answer some questions, because you simply don't have the answers yet.
Q1: It's most convenient to me to just get the game from Steam - so the first question wasn't an issue. When the game really takes off, it would make sense to port it to consoles.
Q2: It seems like you're trying to make a great game first - and then it should pay for itself. At the same time you have already set up things like the NS2 E-team to help you advertise the game when needed. When i asked the question, i realised that the quality and success of a game are very dependent on each other. However, there are some great games that only a few people played, like Psychonauts. Also, you can squeeze more money out of a game, that comes out very polished but maybe with not as many features, than a game with many great ideas that are buggy at release date. NS2 is a very ambitious game, and i hope you'll have the time to work out the bugs before release to have a great and successful game.
Q3: The third question refers to something you discussed in 7th podcast and is based on the <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=103418" target="_blank">NS2 Marine Weapons System</a> thread in Ideas & Suggestions forum. We had very deep and constructive discussion on how it could work, but we only had little information to speculate on. Right now a lot of details are still unclear: to buy weapons, what resources do marines use and how do they get them? Besides choosing research paths, how will the comm influence marines' load-out? Will the comm be able to call rushes (like in NS1: beacon and drop shotguns)?
In regard to the class system - it never made sense to me to have classes in NS, since the equipment you have basically defines your class. Still, you <i>could </i>make a ninja suit that adds a speed boost and a katana sword! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Q4: Answering the question on team size balance you ended up explaining the changes to NS1 alien resource system you plan to do. I assume the alien commander will be a big part of that! Also, if i understand correctly, aliens will no longer have individual res pool. You really just hinted at the new resource model, so there isn't much to respond to there. I'll say this though: aliens in NS1 had great control over their role (class) while marines were put into one by the commander assigning them weapons. Well, in NS2 the marines seem to get the freedom to choose their weapons (and thus their role) while aliens would be more constricted if they don't have own res pool. I'm afraid that some of the spirit of NS could be lost.
Q5: I also thought that direct damage spells would be lame on the receiving end. Slow damage over time area of effect spells might work to discourage entering an area without outright killing an opponent. This topic hasn't really been discussed in too much detail on I&S forum, yet.
Q6: Your answers to the last question were the most interesting ones. I'm gald that you make extra effort to encourage team play.
I haven't played games that make automatic squads, but that idea sounds great. I think the marines could even be given a small boost when close to their teammates to further encourage moving together. Will there be "squads" for aliens? For them, "pack" seems like a better term. Maybe being in squads for marines and being in packs for aliens could give different benefits?
Marine Squad Spawning System sounds very intriguing. Obviously, there has to be a way to respawn in base if the whole squad gets wiped out. I think there should be a revival method to revive dead teammates instead of automatically respawning near them - it would make sense and add to gameplay requiring damaged squads to wait in same location for the dead guy to revive. You could make it an automatic ability or a new secondary item: revival tool.
Waypoints: I'm not sure if a way point system, the way you described it, is absolutely necessary - it might be nice to have if it's easy to implement, but the mini-map and a little experience would make up for it, in my opinion. Also, I can see it be distracting to advanced players who know the best route and the calculated route would not consider things like alien OCs or ambushes. I'm not a programmer, but making a system that would work for all life forms and all maps (including custom maps) seems like a nightmare to implement and not worth the benefits it would offer.
Are you planning to give every player the ability to set waypoints for themselves on the minimap to figure out how to get to a new place? Also, the way you describe the waypoint system indicates that the alien commander would have a top-down view of the map. Again, if it's true, that would make the two commanders very similar in that respect. The ability to see what the commander is doing would be awesome!
Another quick question foreigners might appreciate: Since you want to make games for the world, do you consider making NS2 in other languages?
EDIT: rewrote the whole thing
Not to mention NON-clan players. *cough* Or should I say the rest of us... I have played with many players on many public servers who play just as good as clanners so don't think were beneath you. Not everyone plays games for numbers and avatars. But back to the point, I agree with this for everyone. Even us "normal" players find ourselves playing alongside people we know to a point because of how we play and with certain weapons. I usually choose a supportive role, but if put into a strictly frontal attacking role over and over I might be turned off by it.
Groups though when assigned sound great. I would only ask if anyone can think of a way for us to know who is in our group when playing the game. I play with my map and all that cruddy HUD junk turned off when goign marines for the immersive fun fator. If not using a map means not being able to see who is green to me [who is in my team/group], then how else will I know? I know using colored arm bands is too ###### and unrealistic, so is there any way you guys can think of so we will know whos in our group "IN" the game [on our screen]? If you don't think it's that big of a deal then cool, don't want to add mroe work or worries, but just mentioning it.
i love the idea of squad based respawning, there's nothing worse than getting ninja'd by a lone skulk when your squad is on its way to rush a hive, and you're the only one to miss out on all the fun...
i only have 3 major concerns with this method of respawning.
1. first and foremost was your comment "when you get to a safe state you get to respawn in". a lot of games that work like this, means you have to be out of a certain radius of the enemy, or a period of time has to pass since you were last attacked, so you can respawn. my worry is that a skulk could just sit in a vent within close proximity, and prevent you from respawning. or aliens could just keep timing their attacks so that the time period doesnt elapse. i think it would be heaps better, and add a lot more drama and tension to the marines, if the rest of the squad had some sort of control as to when a marine could respawn back in.
2. how it will work/look. as i said in my first point, i hope its not effected by the surrounding area or a timer, and that the squad can control the respawn. also i love the aesthetics of spawning from an infantry portal, as apposed to getting respawned from a beacon - i'd prefer the marines be more hardware dependant, as opposed to a "beam me up scottie" approach when respawning. so what i propose is this: each marine comes with a portable infantry portal (PIP) as standard equipment, that they cannot drop it/throw away. when someone dies, one of the remaining squad members must pull out his PIP and activate it so that the dead player can respawn. it should take a few seconds to set it up and activate it, and during this time the marine cannot shoot, and would need the other squad members to cover him (just the same as someone welding a weld point in NS1). i'm sure everyone knows how intense it can be to try weld open a door when tour squad is under attack (or an attack is imminent), i think trying to quickly whip out and activate a PIP in the heat of battle would be exhilarating if you could pull it off...
the only problem with this proposal is that your squad could be full of lamers that wont let you respawn back in, but i think i can address that in my 3rd point/concern.
3. you dont want to spawn with your squad. sure it would be very comvenient in a lot of situations to respawn with your squad, but there are also a lot if situations where it would be inconvenient as well. there's been a lot of times when i've been with a sucessful squad and accomplished our objective on once side of the map (lets say ns_veil) eg. capped all the res and killed sub hive, and as the situation rapidly changes we need someone to get to pipe hive quickly. if my squad are all ok and i'm a vanilla marine, a lot of times i've killed myself so i can respawn at marine start, and leg it to pipe so i get there a lot quicker. another example could be that i die but my squad in sub is fine, yet topo needs to be recapped. normally i would respawn at marine start and just run over to topo, but if i repsawn with my squad at sub hive this could be an issue. so i think there should be a menu/button available to respawning players that can specifically choose to respawn in marine start, rather than with their squad (which would be default).
as i mentioned in my PIP proposal before, if your lamer squad wont let you respawn, you can just choose to respawn back at base - if they are being that stupid you wouldnt want to respawn with them/back them up anyways.
well thats my 2 cents anyways, hope it helps.
thanks heaps for the podcast guys, i cant wait for the next vidcast with corey!
P.S. on the next podcast could you please try to refrain from bouncing that tennis ball/bouncey ball on the table? i found it slightly distracting once i'd figured out what it was..... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Sounds to me like you're going more towards what every other game is like, and in the end all we'll have left is an FPS featuring marines & aliens?
<b>Marine Weapon Buying:</b>
Other games have it. Why this sudden fixation with removing interesting mechanics? I love when noobs connect to a server and ask how they get a better weapon, and ppl just tell them "if you ask your commander nicely, he might give you one". The whole idea of depending on other players is for me a very important aspect of NS, and lately it sounds like you're removing big parts of it.
<b>Alien Commander</b>
Making the two different sides more the same. Enough said.
<b>Team size balance and Resource model:</b>
Yet once again removing one of the characteristic differences between aliens and marines. Same resource model for both sides, wait where have I seen that before? Oh yeah, in every other game.
<b>Commander “Spellsâ€:</b>
Sounds to me like the commander is having less responsibility and it limited to buffing / debuffing, doesn't sound too intreguing considering the posibilites the idea of a commander has. Stop removing the important elements of dependancy between players! The game doesn't get better because you remove the slight chance that a bad commander can ruin the game, if you remove all the good stuff with it!
<b>Encouraging Team Play: Squad Spawning System, Better Waypoints, See Commander’s Actions:</b>
Finaly something good!
You mentioned that the marines will buy their own equipment. How will that take place? With credits and credits alone (ie. no res cost)?* How will they earn credits?
*basically like counter-strike, but that'd lead to the problem of.. how did someone put it.. a snowball effect? one team makes all the kills and building and welding, they get all the credit, they can buy better equipment all of the time, their advantage becomes greater, and greater and greater.
How will resource distribution work on the alien team? Mostly the concern is about handling lifeforms and upgrades - although you did say you had a theoretical system in place that you didn't wanna talk about at this point, but can you at least say that it does address this?
I like the auto-grouping squad idea, but wait.. did you say you'd spawn AT your teammates' location? Doesn't that make phasegates somewhat obsolete?
<i>edit</i>: if you're meant to purchase your equipment at the armoury (this is an assumption, given the ambiguity).. but you spawn at your squadmates, how do you get your much needed equipment?
also, what happens when you decide to wander off from your group - probably because you're needed elsewhere? essentially, when or how often will (re-)grouping take place?
<i>edit:</i>
<!--QuoteBegin-afratnikov+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(afratnikov)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Will there be "squads" for aliens? For them, "pack" seems like a better term.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think squads are effectively a way for the commander to perform group actions and give a group a waypoint; and little else*. I don't believe the alien commander -should- order groups of aliens around. As such, aliens are not in need of squads.
*although now, there is a big advantage with squads - squad spawning; but I wouldn't like to see it done the same way for aliens, and really grouping (automatic or not) as well as group spawning wouldn't work - would you have a group of skulks ready for battle, trailing a gorge hanging around the hive? would you like to be a skulk spawning the moment that fade in your group - your 'anchor' - decides to rush marine base and cause some havoc?
<!--QuoteBegin-afratnikov+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(afratnikov)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think there should be a revival method to revive dead teammates<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I disagree, for simple reasons. One of which is that squad spawning is fine. Why would you want to be tied down to a corpse when the situation demands you move forward?
Hmm, I had another question, to add, that is; not specifically to ask for an elaboration to the podcast itself, but I've forgotten it. Oh well, it'll occur to me or someone else eventually, I'm sure.
<i>Edit:</i> I remember now. For the commander, will there be a minimap with activity icons (team under attack here, medpack requested here) for jumping around the map quick (without having to tediously and slowly scroll around manually)?
Thanks.
<u>Fact</u>: all pubbers are (relatively) bad.
<!--quoteo(post=1669310:date=Feb 2 2008, 04:57 AM:name=corpsman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(corpsman @ Feb 2 2008, 04:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1669310"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not everyone plays games for numbers and avatars.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Avatars?
rofl
The squad spawning feels weird too. I'm interested to see how it works in competetive play, especially in 6v6 or whatever it'll be. I'd be surprised if you managed to keep the map control as interesting as it is now at its best.
Agreed. Natural Selection has some amazing unique elements and all these generic ideas ( still awesome <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> ) are only going to add to the production time and make it more like every other game game.
All that's needed is an amazing NS atmosphere. An enhanced remake was all I wanted when I first heard about NS2 all that time ago, exactly what things like natural infestation and an enhanced physics engine would create. I only hope we can recognise the game when it's done, with the alien side having commanders and burrows everywhere, and marines respawning all over the map and having half the commander they should.
Can't wait for the results of all the hard work you're putting in. No, seriously I can't :/
That being said, I still find myself concerned with the removal of inter-player dependency. For me, this is what makes or breaks teamwork in a multiplayer game, and is why I have stuck with NS for so long.
It's cheesey, but I remember when I first started playing NS, I would have other things I should have been doing, but I would wait till the round I was playing ended so I wouldn't leave my team a man down. You don't get that feeling of a team even though you are playing with a bunch of strangers in any other game.
Many games have so much potential for teamwork, but it never gets realized on pubs because supporting each other isn't manditory and gameplay gets dumbed down to death match. Many of the other Half Life mods come to mind, where teamwork happens for a few seconds when it is needed to capture an objective and then is disregarded. Most recently for me Dystopia. I couldn't get into it because I felt unsupported by my team and dislike death match gameplay. It just didn't feel like a team game the way NS does.
I guess I was hoping you'd address this and give us more info on it, but didn't know how to word it and didn't want to be as blunt as the following quotes.
<!--quoteo(post=1669327:date=Feb 2 2008, 10:09 AM:name=eoy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eoy @ Feb 2 2008, 10:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1669327"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"The whole idea of depending on other players is for me a very important aspect of NS, and lately it sounds like you're removing big parts of it."
"The game doesn't get better because you remove the slight chance that a bad commander can ruin the game, if you remove all the good stuff with it!"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, it sounds like you have awsome ideas that may make up for some of the removal of inter-player dependency, but I hope there is still a lot of it built in.
I appreciate the work you have done and have faith that NS2 will be a great game regardless. Keep up the good work.
I don't know if you guys even know this because of investers are who knows where. If anything it would be nice to know if this is coming out in 2008 or not. I will buy this game in a second on steam, but that is right now, once Starcraft 2 and other stuff comes out in 2009 just don't know if the community perk will still be there. :-(
This just my honest mood, I really do wish you guys best and can't wait to play your game.
Keep up the great work and brainstorming! But I share all of eoy's concerns. My main interest is in the new resource model. I'd like some more info on that so I can sink my teeth into it. Flayra says the purpose of the new resource model is to solve the threshold effect problem; my initial thoughts are that an alien commander is unnecessary to fix it, but may be very interesting for spells which make use of DI, and also is an excuse for the hive slurping up aliens (yummy).
Now a repost of something from the alien commander thread which addresses the very concern Flayra talked about with the threshold effect. The only reason it breaks scaling with game size is that resources aren't shareable. Instead of a single alien controlling res spending (very unaliencratic):
"I suggest a REQUEST BASED sharing system. Just a simple modifier key and attempt to gest or build, and you autogenerate the request. Tiny icons on other aliens screens could signify the request. Then any player can respond to the requests (like a commander does) and give their res to meet the other player's request.
This system is also more of the traditional alien type where each player's strategic decisions add to the whole. Also, it more strongly emphasizes sharing or greed as part of the team social dynamic. At the same time, it solves the problem of stagnant res spread out across aliens, and addresses the awkwardness of the res sharing plugin."
In any case, my fav part of NS was the motion dynamics of the action. As far as RTS aspects go, if they're at least functional, I'm happy.
Now speculation: since the resource model will be unified, and marines are supposed to be able to buy their own stuff, and the commander researches it, then clearly what is inferred is that the alien commander must research lifeforms, and aliens buy lifeforms like marines buy weapons. Now it is clear why Flayra does not reveal it. Because it doesn't sound like something people will like. I'm open to new ideas. But it does sound a little... ho hum. Like something other games would do. Uncrazy. Is that so bad?
I imagine that after my interest fades, it will rise again once the game is play tested and the release is near. Right now i'm just following the process of game development - something you don't get to do most of the time. I <i>can </i>wait for the game to come out, though it doesn't mean i have to remain "faithful" and not play any other games <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> If you are tired of waiting for NS2, just play something else and come back to check on development from time to time.
On release dates.
Blizzard has made it their policy not to set any release dates: every game is "done when it's done." This way, they can assure that when their games are released, they are very polished and without bugs. That is a big reason why their games are so successful. I hope UW makes a similar policy. And i don't see how knowing the release date would be important right now. I guess knowing whether it's released in 6 months or 24 would make a difference, but at this point i'd imagine the development to be very unpredictable. Underestimating would be the worst thing: if they say it's released Fall '08 and then isn't released till well into '09 people will feel angry. On the other hand, if they say "You'll certainly play it Spring '10," you would give up on it. And the uncertainty of release date could easily be 6 months, even 12, considering possible problems in estimating (podcast 15). So yeah... i wouldn't expect any release dates.
Will NS2 be successful? We'll have to wait and see. I hope there won't be any financial issues or personal conflicts within UW [knock on wood], because these seem the only things that could stop NS2 from being a big success. Gameplay ideas are great, people working on the game have experience in the industry, community is pretty big already - and even if the community declines in time, they have set up things such as E-Team already to bring NS2 zeal up again.
I'm also eager to play NS2, but realize there is now way. I'll just have to wait and hope they take their time to make the game great, so when it's released it will be worth it.
The squad system sounds cool but what if you are playing with a friend, and you know his/her abilities and want to be around that person.
Why not make it like battlefield and allow people to enter exit a group at will. Say you don't like how your group is playing/doing things. So you don't feel stuck with a bunch on people you don't like. The only problem there is random placement.
The down side to the marine spawn system is this. One of the best things as a skulk or fade is that you go in kill one run out heal. The "hit and run" sort of tactics. Would make that a useless thing to do. I mean if a group of 3 marines was heading to a hive to build a PG and you see that and take 2 of them out but died in the process. Which slows there building time, which allows more time for your team to react to the treat. I think the only way to could balance that is making it so only 1 person can build at a time.
Also picking off the last one in a group of marines is always good practice anyway. Which again would make doing such things pointless. Even if it gives you a buff or something. Because they will respawn with whatever loadout, and still have that gun to use against your team later. Unless you make the timer on respawn longer than IP spawn time.
Honestly its more sounding like another RTS/FPS that I played. Called Savage. Where all the commander does is "unlock" tech, which you buy with gold by killing NPCS. And the only thing he really gets to control is builders (resource gathers) he can also draw circles arrows to point out where they want people to go. (Melee in that game was rather hard to get used to, with latency issues).
Oh yea, there is a mod out there called Zombie panic: Source. The zombie vision I think would be prefect for NS 2 for aliens.
But instead of red, maybe yellow (your sense of smell maybe) Also I know its not posable or would be very taxing on the server and clients but what about a sent trail thing that marines leave behind that maybe a skulk or maybe part of a Scent of fear ability? nothing too dense but would hang around in the air awhile so you can follow marines, and know if they split up. Just a thought.
quote
juice
"I suggest a REQUEST BASED sharing system. Just a simple modifier key and attempt to gest or build, and you autogenerate the request. Tiny icons on other aliens screens could signify the request. Then any player can respond to the requests (like a commander does) and give their res to meet the other player's request.
/quote
There where a few NS mods which had that, you binded a key to "give x res" and "take x res" when you where looking and near the player/hive. So you could give it to "professional gorges" but there was a small problem with that and someone could get Fade or Onos within a few moments of the game. Which pretty much breaks its into the OP section. Maybe Limiting it to gorges only. (but that would make people be gorge then change into said alien.) So maybe you need a system where there is personal res and team res. I dunno more thought would need to be put into it to balance it out I think.
Also the mod I always loved was the gorge grapple. It made getting to "gorge hideouts allot easier. Plus it was fun to use to get away from marines. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> But in the same way makes it OP. So I dunno.
Hmm, I had this concern as well, in my previous post.
Auto-grouping is one thing, which I approve of (as well as auto-ungrouping, I'd say) - essentially it's to make it easier, more intuitive, for the commander. (would you be able to leave or join a squad at will?) I think the way I asked it was, when or how often will squad grouping/regrouping occur?
Squad spawning is another thing entirely, though... similar maybe, but different concerns, possible issues..
<!--QuoteBegin-NSSlayer+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NSSlayer)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well i totally agree with the class system, this way there are plenty of strategies of rines especially on a war, but it should be maximized, how many times you can change class.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
uhh, huh? what? a class system (for marines) is NOT going in.
Other games have it. Why this sudden fixation with removing interesting mechanics? I love when noobs connect to a server and ask how they get a better weapon, and ppl just tell them "if you ask your commander nicely, he might give you one". The whole idea of depending on other players is for me a very important aspect of NS, and lately it sounds like you're removing big parts of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This can be exploited by griefers, it's not intuitive, and its also not easy for a Commander to give out equipment fairly so each person gets to have a try of the Jetpack/Shotgun etc. Marines regulating their own weapon purchases is taking an unneccessary weight off the Com's shoulders and allowing him more time to focus on the more crucial aspects.
I’ve been playing NS since the 1.04 release, the game has gotten better and better over the years and I’ve seen some very interesting tactics and different player experience levels. And I personally feel if you take away the commander weapon allocation to players you will take a big aspect of the game and make commanders have an even less of a role, personally I do not feel it is hard to respond to players within game for their needs and doing researching on 6v6 tournaments or 16v16 public games. With the proper shortcut keys setup and enough time and experience to learn the maps it’s a doddle, you shouldn’t expect people to jump into a comm chair for the first time and know everything, if you leave players to buy their own weapons you’re still going to have people on public servers camping around customising or deciding which weapons to buy and also other people purchasing the wrong weapons for the situation. Their maybe times were commander needs certain people with certain weapons responding to a situation and because everyone buys there own your taking some of the tactics and plans the commander has for the game. You will always have people with different experiences within all games and you can't take away roles from the commander because some people are unable to deal with it. I think the way forward is to have some advanced tactical warning system, for example sounds within game that advises the commanders perhaps on research or team mates under attack. And have alerts playing when Marines have spotted enemy structures or a hive perhaps when going down a hallway and have visually seen enemy structures. And just allow for a nice hotkey customisation for faster drops.
Also I personally think the Squad spawn system is a bad idea and squad auto match, if you can’t be with your friends or you end up with people who don’t seem to be following the commander’s waypoints then it’s going to fail or cause big problems. It’s not hard for commanders to currently assign players squads and give waypoints in all fairness. I just hope some of the unique things that make NS a brilliant game aren’t taken away just to make it easier for minor people who think the task is too hard. It may make public play better in some ways but also may wreck the game in terms of tournament play where players are experienced enough and know what they are doing. For instance within a tournament game playing the aliens, certain players would build resources towers and save for another hive, while others would attack and defend locations and save to evolve into higher life forms later on, this is also used much in public games too altough not to much because there is less communication between the teammates, if you can increase communication or have some kind of active role system that needs players to fill in to sustain a miniunm for the alien team should be perfect altough turn such a thing off in tournaments. Also i would like to know what your ideas are for the STANDARD marine vs alien ratio should be for tournaments such as 6v6 is the current, will taking away an extra alien from the battlefield to command mean bigger torunament size is needed for more epic battles and coverage of the maps?
Also an idea perhaps have a tech idea for marines to have small cameras/mini radar things which they can weld to walls or near empty hive locations or near resource towers that alert to enemy presence nearby that area to the commander or nearby marine forces possibly.
This is only my opinion of the game and so far I have read some interesting arguments and ideas from people! Keep up the good work Flayra + Max!