Comm dropping weapons is easy to do, its a false point to say remove it because its hard or bothersome. Marines will just sit around the armoury picking their guns or even if they know what they want they have to come out of the atmosphere of the game to navigate some menus to get a gun. Unless its done REALLY well, that will always be a problem. also there will be no more dropping "packs" near IPs so rines can spawn and go. comm cant assign the team say 2 GLs and everyone else hmg/shotty or whatever. The point is it adds wasted time to the game, comn has less things to do and there's less tactical control for the commander.
Squad system I also think is a bad idea because such a feature is only good when the game employs large maps (BF2 or whatever large). It is also would be bad for balance in NS as there would be no need for a phase gates and that will bring marines into a tactical advantage in deployment rate of units getting to the front lines. it is NOT a bother to walk from base to the front lines as the front lines in NS can be anywhere. It would also destroy some of the atmosphere for the game also.
There are a number of points I could say against the alien commander system too, but as I don't really know any details it would be pointless. The only positive side of it I can see it will be easier to make/balance the game with an alien commander, while removing the aliens feel.
I would like to say make NS2 a port of NS, but.... That's just going to be a waste of time. Add to NS, is all I can think off. Flame throwers, more tech, more commanding options for commanders, make battles more epic and stuff like that.
I'd imagine it'd hurt teamwork because people won't care about dying. It stops being bad. People will just go off on their own, get killed, then spawn back to their squad.
Plus, it'd suck to walk all the way back to the base to get your shotty back. I'd rather spawn back at base, where I know I'm safe, and walk back to my squad.
I do like the squad idea, though. Alien squads should be called "packs" though, to keep the theme going.
It's not just that it makes it easier for the commander; allowing players to get their own equipment makes the game more fun for them. Or do you <b>enjoy</b> begging your commander for a shotty?
As for the 'they'll sit around base choosing weapons' argument - come on, there are only a few weapons in the game. Or were you just joking? Even if there were a great number of choices - as in CS; well in CS do people hang around base for five minutes choosing weapons? And <b>don't</b> give me that 'we don't want NS to be like CS, do we?' argument, because you know it has nothing to do with it.
As for the grouping issues, it's easy enough to put a little toggle button to turn auto-grouping on/off, I'm sure?
And finally, I highly doubt that they'll take commander 'hot dropping' of equipment out.
I think what a lot of people here don't <i>seem to</i> understand, is that <b>we're</b> (ideally) the <b>minor</b>ity. <b>We're</b> the core group of gamers that can be relied upon to definitely play the game, but we're hardly large in number. UWE's mission is to <i>unite the world through play</i> - can they do that with the handful of players that frequent this forum?
I've been playing ns way more than I should since 1.04, so I consider myself well versed in the arts of skulkcraft. That said I'd like to point out that the squad spawning system didn't work out too well for battlefield 2, where it was easily abused and had to be patched. Also, it definitely took away from the mystique of the game as much as the atmosphere of a battlefield.
If you want to encourage order and cooperation, how about instituting a commander ranking system? A player who's steam ID registers him more wins or more good votes or something would have priority over other people when applying to the comm chair. They did that in bf2 and it weeded out the n00bs. And for marine-marine cooperation, perhaps per round the commander could have an automatically rendered list of players who in the current round have completed the most waypoints, or died trying, so that he would better select who to spend cash on. Pleasing the comm in this fashion would inspire cooperation, and the ranking system would ensure good commanders.
I actually took the time to read the Six Days in Sanji story long ago and loved it - I even read the explanations of how everything in ns works (nano bots and such). This added a great sense of story to my everyday play (And sadly, yes it was everyday). I think it would serve you guys financially to write the game to follow the sense that there really is a struggle between humanity and aliens going on: enhancing the role of the hives and hive minds, and limiting the "acts of God" (such as people magically appearing next to their buddies). Making the effects believable will be the difference between a gamer telling his friend "Yeah, ns2 is this game where you're a marine who gets these awesome sci fi guns and has to use them to clear out spaceships from creapy ass aliens," and," Yeah, ns2 is this game where you run around and randomly shoot weird dog things that walk on walls, and pigs that crap out trees," simply because the game will make sense. I'm much more likely to buy a game my friends say is cool; if you make a really interesting and believable game, all you need to do to get 5 people to buy it is get one of their friends to buy it. If you strip away the believability and atmosphere, all you have is action, and if you want action for the 360 you get GoW.
Oh, and for the commander-mode console controller problem, just have a combination of buttons select something. Holding A would bring up one menu, then pressing one of the other 3 billion buttons on the controller would select a certain item. Anyone would pickup the combo's quickly.
<!--quoteo(post=1669470:date=Feb 4 2008, 05:21 AM:name=SgtHydra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SgtHydra @ Feb 4 2008, 05:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1669470"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd imagine it'd hurt teamwork because people won't care about dying. It stops being bad. People will just go off on their own, get killed, then spawn back to their squad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> damn, thats a very valid point, and one that i completely overlooked. currently if you die and respawn at marine start, you leg it back to where you were, and try a little bit harder to prevent it from happening again. this is probably one of the most basic fundamental influences that made me get better at NS. and it still works 5 years later, if i die, it might annoy me a bit, but i'll run back to the same spot with more determination than ever to kick some kharaa butt. and yes, i can see how it would benefit lamers/griefers. some idiot stands there knifing thin air, only to die, respawn, and back you up again with their oxygen killing blade attack....
<!--quoteo(post=1669470:date=Feb 4 2008, 05:21 AM:name=SgtHydra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SgtHydra @ Feb 4 2008, 05:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1669470"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd rather spawn back at base, where I know I'm safe<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> lol i've been spawn camped at marine start far to many times... marine start is never 100% safe, in fact, its usually the most vulnerable area for the marines (at least hives, dbl res etc usually get locked down)
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited February 2008
Great podcast!
The commander already buffs his team and debuffs the aliens. Via medpacks, ammo and scanner sweeps. I think there is great room for improving the role the commander has in combat that can make the command experience a lot more active. I think a game where the comm and have an influence on the outcome of combat will make squads more likely to form. If the commander has area effect buffs then people will group together to make them cheaper and more effective.
If you look at how the commander applies damage in NS, it's through static structures. Turrets and electricity allow the commander to apply damage, but a more dynamic system would be better. If the commander had AI controlled droids that could be issued orders then the team could work with the droid to achieve an objective. You could end up with a system like the APC in ET:QW where the commander could build an assault bot that the marines could group with to push through alien defenses. The commander would then get to control the unit and actively make tactical decisions to increase the effectiveness of the unit.
Comm dropping weapons is easy to do, its a false point to say remove it because its hard or bothersome. Marines will just sit around the armoury picking their guns or even if they know what they want they have to come out of the atmosphere of the game to navigate some menus to get a gun. Unless its done REALLY well, that will always be a problem. also there will be no more dropping "packs" near IPs so rines can spawn and go. comm cant assign the team say 2 GLs and everyone else hmg/shotty or whatever. The point is it adds wasted time to the game, comn has less things to do and there's less tactical control for the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->What if it's done like Empires, where the Commander can choose to lock the structure to save res or to manually distribute items and make sure people are taking the most suitable equipment. You could even have a WYSIWYG toggle menu where the Commander can enable and monitor equipment research and toggle equipment on/off for distribution.
The point here is that, until you master the hotkeys for meds, ammo and weapons, you are not a capable Commander. This is stupid, because it means so much fewer people get to play the RTS side of the game. If the Commander could choose how much fiddling he wanted to do, newcomers and veteran commanders could enjoy the Commander role on an equal footing. This isn't about dumbing down the commander, this is about making it more accessible so Commanding is more about what strategic and tactical decisions you make, rather than how quick your medspam is. Commander shouldn't be about twitch, it should be about taking gambles, resource management, leadership and on-the-fly decisiveness.
I agree pretty much 100% with what lance said. I really do not like the buying of weapons thing and the squad spawning. If you want to take out the RTS part altogether then fine, but dont just make it look half assed, thats a blow to the people who really liked to comm. You dont have to make comming easier by giving a comm less to do, you make it easier by giving him better tools to do his job, thats the only thing the TSA would be able to do between NS1 and NS2 anyway. No sane military organization would let their soldiers choose what weapons they wanted, especially if they were 12 year old whiners. The comm had real power to keep players in line when they were being jerks, letting idiots loose with weapon choice may just lead some comms to skip researching some techs altogether. As far as squad spawning this is a huge mistake, I have posted about it elsewhere but I will say it again. It breaks the game for aliens and marines, as has been said it cheapens dying and unfairly penalizes aliens for their hard work and makes the battle of numbers nonexistent. It also makes good comming even less important (just remove it already, you dont really need the RTS part anyway *rolls eyes*) since you dont need a good infrastructure for territory control. I wont discuss the problems that arrise when you try to actually implement such a system because the whole idea of a squad spawning system is just bad gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=1669508:date=Feb 4 2008, 03:51 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Feb 4 2008, 03:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1669508"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Squad auto-grouping makes the commander take -less- of an active role.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->How convenient, then, that I was posting in response to the reply <i>right above my post</i>.
Sr LanceRhythm is a LancerJoin Date: 2004-11-18Member: 32862Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2008
<!--quoteo(post=1669521:date=Feb 4 2008, 11:59 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Feb 4 2008, 11:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1669521"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if it's done like Empires, where the Commander can choose to lock the structure to save res or to manually distribute items and make sure people are taking the most suitable equipment. You could even have a WYSIWYG toggle menu where the Commander can enable and monitor equipment research and toggle equipment on/off for distribution.
The point here is that, until you master the hotkeys for meds, ammo and weapons, you are not a capable Commander. This is stupid, because it means so much fewer people get to play the RTS side of the game. If the Commander could choose how much fiddling he wanted to do, newcomers and veteran commanders could enjoy the Commander role on an equal footing. This isn't about dumbing down the commander, this is about making it more accessible so Commanding is more about what strategic and tactical decisions you make, rather than how quick your medspam is. Commander shouldn't be about twitch, it should be about taking gambles, resource management, leadership and on-the-fly decisiveness.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you’re saying is based on player’s ability to command and come up with strats and lead your team to victory; I agree it should be a little more easier for players to command and new comers. But if new comers come into the game and play they are less likely to know how aliens work and there evolving tech + the maps so they are likely to lose the game already. If you want to make people commanding skills be better either have ranking servers where players ability’s are the same or include tutorials for people to practice or the sain thing give them easier tools to work with and guidiance!, a lot of people are not able to direct there team or develop strats simply because they are not cut out for that part of the game. And the hot keys matter for everything in to responding for demands of players and putting down buildings quicker, makes all the difference within tournaments and public play. If the commander is busy playing with droids he is less likely to play a tactical role with his teammates. Your trying to create this balance for making the game suitable for old veterans + new comers for them to pick up easy and to be honest you can't go right down the middle and cater for both your only going to divide people up in my opinion, having epic cool long battles is my idea of fun and leading my team to victory through a closely matched game is what I like to see. Yes playing with droids and stuff sounds like a cool idea but it will grow old and won’t be as practical. There is a reason within the Army that there is different chain of command and sectors as people can't do everything, not all soldiers can come up with tactics and is why they rely on people to lead them formulate plans.
Also adding AI stuff to control will be a lot to handle for the source engine server side, the networking in which the source engine deals with its not very good at all especially with the different tickrates and reg issues adding futher stuff for the server to do will cause problems. Look at reg issues within CSS + DODS and many other modifications and most of them don’t have as near much details or actions going on. Empiresmod has done sorta well for the vehicle side of this aspect but the infantry and weapons don’t reg and crapy frame animation and teleporting issues and weapons fire going completely where its not meant to in some cases.
Medpack hotkey Ammo hotkey Some knowledge of the game
The rest can be done by clicking unless you are going to need 15 shotties for a rush. Of course hotkeys help, but you don't really have to know the system inside out at all. I think med and ammo hotkeys shouldn't be anything more difficult than learning to blink by using +movement. I agree that the comming is confusing and takes some twitch skills, but not more than any other role in the game. Generally speaking its just the biggest role the game has, making it a big factor when your comm isn't the best there is. Making it more inuitive is good, but I don't think you can remove much without affecting the strategical depth a lot.
<!--quoteo(post=1669533:date=Feb 4 2008, 05:57 PM:name=Dtlance)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dtlance @ Feb 4 2008, 05:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1669533"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And the hot keys matter for everything in to responding for demands of players and putting down buildings quicker, makes all the difference within tournaments and public play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nobody said get rid of hotkeys, although I would say that instead of the comm dropping a medpack every 5 seconds it would be a lot simpler to create a Marine-equipped healing device. This doesn't stop the Commander choosing when to use this equipment and who to give it to, but it does make the role a lot less pointlessly twitch.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your trying to create this balance for making the game suitable for old veterans + new comers for them to pick up easy and to be honest you can't go right down the middle and cater for both your only going to divide people up in my opinion<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yes, you can. As I tried to explain before, having a system that toggles between automatic and manual allows any commander to be as hands-on as they like. A veteran comm who has got used to the hotkeys and doing things quickly can restrict armoury/proto distribution and choose to drop it himself. A beginner commander can leave this up to the players (if he trusts them) and restrict it if he's running low on res. He could turn off expensive items like the grenade launcher and heavy machine gun and just let players take shotguns.
I really don't see how giving a player the option as to how much he wants to have to deal with at once (but STILL catering for players that want to do everything manually) is a problem? It's freakin' blessing!
I like Crispy's toggle comm/marine weapon buying. Unfortunately, it seems like under the unified system, they would be spending their individual res and not the team's res, so the idea doesn't apply. On the other hand, you could implement it by allowing the comm to spend res by converting it to marine res, accomplishing the same goal. Or you could just only have team res, like it used to be, sniff sniff.
On squad spawning, consider the "sickly gazelle" argument. Marines = gazelles and skulks = wolves or whatever. As a skulk, I like being able to pick off the weak or wandering marine, as the group of marines advances. By the time they get to their destination, they should be sufficiently weakened to take them head on. But squad spawning defeats the point of this. It also makes ambushes totally irrelevant unless you can totally wipe out the group. This sounds very unfun for skulks.
Buy weapons like cs?Unify resource model and kill asymetric? guided-travel in a NS map with lot of stupid IA and messages like DOD at begin?Spells like wow?
That are not good ideas.
Good ideas:
- Automatic assign groups by distance.
- GOOD HELP AND VIDEOTUTORIALS.Translate help into lot of lenguages.
- COMMANDER more strategic, less tactic (improve tech-tree, choose crytical ways).
- And please, respect NS clan games.If NS is alive atm is for clanners.Public and casual gamers only need a new graphic engine...
NS is a good idea, take the 1/3 new and 1/3 improved please.
<!--quoteo(post=1669470:date=Feb 4 2008, 12:21 AM:name=SgtHydra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SgtHydra @ Feb 4 2008, 12:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1669470"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't like the squad spawning idea.
I'd imagine it'd hurt teamwork because people won't care about dying. It stops being bad. People will just go off on their own, get killed, then spawn back to their squad.
Plus, it'd suck to walk all the way back to the base to get your shotty back. I'd rather spawn back at base, where I know I'm safe, and walk back to my squad.
I do like the squad idea, though. Alien squads should be called "packs" though, to keep the theme going.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well if its an auto squad assignments, if you wander off away from your group you would be unassigned from your group. Then when you die you spawn back at base like always. Instead I would like to know what would trigger the spawn back in. is it every x seconds, is it x seconds after the last death, is it x seconds after the last damage taken by a team member, is it x sec after the last enemy got withen a ranged etc.
And if you listened I believe they said if your a shotty, and your out in the field and die, and spawn back in with your team, you spawn in with your weapon set.
I would like to know how they plan to make sure that everyone doesnt just get HMGs (once they are researched)?
<!--QuoteBegin-Hyperion+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hyperion)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No sane military organization would let their soldiers choose what weapons they wanted,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Here's where you're wrong. Special forces operators around the world give their personnel complete freedom in the equipment they choose to arm themselves with.
<!--QuoteBegin-juice+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(juice)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Unfortunately, it seems like under the unified system, they would be spending their individual res and not the team's res, so the idea doesn't apply.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a joke, right? The very definition of a unified resource system is that there is ONLY ONE POOL - team res. So yes, they would be spending team's res and yes, the idea does apply.
<!--QuoteBegin-MAAAD+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MAAAD)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- COMMANDER more strategic, less tactic (improve tech-tree, choose crytical ways).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> More strategic, less tactic? I was kinda thinking the opposite. I'd like the commander to do more than just research, I'd like him to direct the flow of battle. Of course, that kinda goes against the idea of making comming easier for newcomers; which is a problem..
<!--QuoteBegin-obsid+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(obsid)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well if its an auto squad assignments, if you wander off away from your group you would be unassigned from your group. Then when you die you spawn back at base like always.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I had the same, or a similar, idea. <!--QuoteBegin-obsid+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(obsid)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Instead I would like to know what would trigger the spawn back in. is it every x seconds, is it x seconds after the last death, is it x seconds after the last damage taken by a team member, is it x sec after the last enemy got withen a ranged etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've got the same question. <!--QuoteBegin-obsid+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(obsid)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And if you listened I believe they said if your a shotty, and your out in the field and die, and spawn back in with your team, you spawn in with your weapon set.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What? Did they say this?
I think that even if squad respawning doesn't go in, auto-squad-grouping should still.
There are a lot of assumptions being made here, glossing over of details that make a difference, and then jumping to a conclusion. Unsurprisingly, a rush to judgment is being made. Please stop passing judgment until all the evidence is in. What are we, a NS1 die hard lynch mob? "Its different! Hang em high!"
The Unknown Worlds Devs said they would play test it, IMHO, that is far better than other developers do for us gamers when they release a beta test as "gold" and have us figure out their game isn't fun but rather frustrating after we've already paid for it.
<!--quoteo(post=1669593:date=Feb 5 2008, 04:25 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Feb 5 2008, 04:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1669593"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's a joke, right? The very definition of a unified resource system is that there is ONLY ONE POOL - team res. So yes, they would be spending team's res and yes, the idea does apply.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> sorry dude but thats your definition, and therefore your opinion.... that doesnt mean its the same definition that the dev's have (unless you can provide me with a direct quote the says otherwise). look at their quotes in the below link, they seen to refer to unifying the resource system between the two teams (so thay are more similar and easier to learn), more than anything else.
*edit* dont get me wrong, you're certainly entitled to your opinions, but until the dev's detail exactly how the new system will work, they will be just that - opinions.
Hm... interesting. Good podcast overall, and interestingly seemingly to divide people on several points.
Being a major mod player, I'm happy and depressed by some of the ideas.
First off, allowing weapons loadouts and classes for Marines doesn't sit well with me. My favorite part of NS was the dichotomy between Aliens and Marines. Marines were weapon based and tended to look similar. Aliens were class based and individual badasses. Perhaps minor loadouts would be nice and take a little load off the Commander, but making Marines fully class based and buying their own equipment is, at least to me, going away from the NS spirit.
Secondly, while having an Alien commander might be cool, there's a disparity of good comms as it is, in any RTS/FPS game. Forcing each game to have competent commanders on BOTH teams just sounds like a bad idea and subject to serious pain if you do it wrong.
Spawning with your squad is an interesting idea. Maybe, just maybe, you can pull it off. However, there are so many ways it can go wrong, most have already been mentioned. It's not about "missing" that cool battle. NS was never about making sure you got into a good fight. It, at is core, is a First-Person Shooter Real-Time Strategy. It's beginning to feel like we're losing some of the RTS elements, forcing Marines to have to walk from spawn points or build PGs to compensate. Again, I don't know if you'll think of some awesome way to do it right, I just know all the ways it can go wrong. Perhaps you could do it like Empires Mod, where reviving your squad is a special ability that costs something.
Overall, I'm excited to see what you guys do. It sounds like you're pulling alot of ideas from other games and mixing and matching them to NS. Alot, and I mean ALOT, sound like they're derivatives of Empires Mod, perhaps the only other successful FPS/RTS blend out there right now. There's some good things, and there's some bad.
In the end, though, it's your game. Make it how you want. You don't have to cater to our ideas and values, you'll inevitably turn away some and cause others to flock.
Also, something I found while rummaging around: <a href="http://gamingsalembic.wordpress.com/" target="_blank">http://gamingsalembic.wordpress.com/</a>
It's a blog about the theoretical side of game design.
* Thoughts from a past casual NS player... and a puber as some like to say *
- About auto-grouping marine squads : I definitely think there should be ways to force teamplay, but I don't think it's the right way to do it. First, there MUST be some kind of leaders for squads/groups/whateveryoucallthem: technically, I can't imagine any algorithm allowing to regroup nearby marines; what if two groups come close to eachother? what is the "center position" of a squad that is constantly moving, spreading, metting/crossing marines from other squad(s)... Commander should be able to designate, based on knowledge/stats of players, a (very) few marines as "leaders" (with a fixed maximum), around whom "common" marines could regroup. I also think, like many, that squad spawning (even automatic spawning on a squad leader as in BF2) should not be "triggered" by any squad member. Look in other directions, like the one adopted in PR (project reality: bf2 mod where teamplay is mandatory ): a squad leader could use a mobile IP (as somebody suggested), but droping it on the ground. He could only have a single such IP at any time, and aliens could (easily) destroy it. You can see it like an advanced rally point. Some will say "Hey this is NS not BF2 or a BF2 mod!!!" Indeed. But what is the point of trying to reinvent stuff that's already been adressed, bug-fixed, patched, improved (like in PR for BF2 basic spawn system). Leaders would not have "special superpowers", except setting the squad's mobile IP... and leading his squad to victory! There could also be some limitations for IP setting: number of members in the squad, distance to enemy hives, ressources of the leader, ...
- About alien commander... As I said in a previous thread (adressing the videocast introducing the brand new Hive system), I think too many people focus on the "commander" name for alien side; so they imagine a player "sitting" in a hive, providing waypoints and upgrades to other alien players... making aliens sorts of marines with "alien skin". I merely see an alien commander as the mind of a particular hive, allowing aliens to have several "commanders". Let's call them Hiveminds (not my idea). In the videocast, we see a hive swallowing a gorge, just as a marine would take place into a marine command... If the hive is a living entity, why is it supposed to need some gorge to take place into it to have a thinking mind? Why a gorge doesn't simply <b><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->evolve<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> into a hive? Thus we would have 1 to 3 small commanders, with powers limited to the hive area (zone infested by DI). Each would be in charge of 1) defending the infested area, possibly giving some limited boosts to aliens nearby (whose role would clearly be to defend it as well) and 2) to manage local spawning by allowing ressources to more or less eggs/fireflies. And as proposed before, the Hive player, could also be able to allow ressources to increasing DI, or get back ressources by decreasing it. If the Hive is destroyed, the 'Mind' player is killed. Another gorge (possibly the same player) could come and evolves into a hive, later on. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" /> <!--coloro:#808000--><span style="color:#808000"><!--/coloro--><b>-></b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" /> <!--coloro:#808000--><span style="color:#808000"><!--/coloro--><b>-></b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hive5.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::hive::" border="0" alt="hive5.gif" /> To summurize, Hive (seen as a specific alien class) players, would be specifically in charge of defense and spawn (each player would choose at which Hive he wishes to spawn), while other classes would still be all-around classes (witth possibly boosts from Hive when defending, like say, more HP).
Of course, it brings about another problem: what about the first Hive? As someone said before, BF2 commander election is made before round actually starts (or when current commander is dismissed), on a player rank basis (if more than one players request to be the firstcom/mind). Think this could be the same here, to decide which player will be the first Hive's mind... until it's destroyed. This would make the alien "intelligence" system totally dissimilar from its human counterpart.
About developpers' wishes to create a brand new game, not just an NS with better graphics and new weapons: keep going guys!!! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> I would also not be excited of just doing the same again... Who would?
<!--quoteo(post=1669386:date=Feb 3 2008, 12:17 AM:name=afratnikov)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(afratnikov @ Feb 3 2008, 12:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1669386"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On release dates. Blizzard has made it their policy not to set any release dates: every game is "done when it's done." This way, they can assure that when their games are released, they are very polished and without bugs. That is a big reason why their games are so successful. I hope UW makes a similar policy. And i don't see how knowing the release date would be important right now. I guess knowing whether it's released in 6 months or 24 would make a difference, but at this point i'd imagine the development to be very unpredictable. Underestimating would be the worst thing: if they say it's released Fall '08 and then isn't released till well into '09 people will feel angry. On the other hand, if they say "You'll certainly play it Spring '10," you would give up on it. And the uncertainty of release date could easily be 6 months, even 12, considering possible problems in estimating (podcast 15). So yeah... i wouldn't expect any release dates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with your points besides that one. Sorry no matter how much time, 10 years, 20 years, it is IMPOSSIBLE to release a bug free game. PC games require constant attention, because of updated hardware, software, and the fact that everyone in the world has a different rig with billions of combinations the game will have bugs. The point I want to make is that Steam, allows you to do small updates daily to fix new tiny issues and/or other things. Blizzard is not godlike, they don't give release dates because they don't want to miss them. You can even look at the number of hits on the SC2 website, they still havn't released zerg data when they clearly have in-game videos with minimum of 5 zerg units. Blizzard can afford to not care because when it releases the game magazines and television and Activision Blizzard (yes the VU + Activision merge) will push the hipe.
Do you think UW will be able to push that kind of hipe? I have much experience with this genre. Savage, and Savage 2, both good games, but could not get the hipe for their new game Savage 2 which just came out, did you know this? www.s2games.com
Point is I believe dead lines give a target goal for the project. There is a point when you spend to much time adding new things to the game at which the game becomes lost with its identity. A mapped out plan of attack and stages of development on a time table. Who knows they might have this, but that would mean they also have a suggested release date. Then would be hiding it out of fear. If you have people that are saying they willing to watch update by update for a year without knowing if it even coming out, you got some pretty dedicated fans watching and really doubt they would be upset because a handful of guys failed to make a suggested deadline that the biggest gaming companies in the world hardly ever make.
P.S - the people that complain about missing a deadline are the same people that will complain about units, weapons, wahh add another race, wahh. They will always find something to complain about.
I think this is the second time in this thread, but: <!--QuoteBegin-spellman23+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->First off, allowing weapons loadouts and classes for Marines doesn't sit well with me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's great, because there won't be classes for marines. Or am I the only one that heard that in the podcast? But yes, marines will be 'buying' weapons. Though we have as yet no idea how that'll happen - or how players on the Kharaa will evolve into higher lifeforms. I would really like to know this.
<!--QuoteBegin-spellman23+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Secondly, while having an Alien commander might be cool, there's a disparity of good comms as it is, in any RTS/FPS game. Forcing each game to have competent commanders on BOTH teams just sounds like a bad idea and subject to serious pain if you do it wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a good point. But then again, having a commander mode on both sides would force more players to try to play commander, and give more players the <b>chance</b> to play as commander. Good commanders don't appear out of thin air, they gotta learn that part of the game first.
<!--QuoteBegin-spellman23+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's beginning to feel like we're losing some of the RTS elements, forcing Marines to have to walk from spawn points or build PGs to compensate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't get it, are you saying that it's less RTS because marines have to walk from spawn to the location they're needed? Because actually, isn't it more like "infantry units"(players) are "produced"(spawned) at the "Barracks" (Infantry Portal)? The "population cap" being the number of players on your team minus one (you the commander). Sounds pretty RTS to me. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
<!--QuoteBegin-spellman23+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You don't have to cater to our ideas and values, you'll inevitably turn away some and cause others to flock.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Heh. That wasn't nice, but it was wise.
<!--QuoteBegin-knorp+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(knorp)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->About auto-grouping marine squads: I definitely think there should be ways to force teamplay<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd say you should definitely not force people to play as part of the team - not force people to play in a way they don't want to (or with people they don't want to); but instead encourage them to do so. I think the problem is ignorance, people don't seem to know, or learn, that in NS, running around in groups as a Marine is important to your survival, and important to the team's victory.
<!--QuoteBegin-knorp+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(knorp)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but I don't think it's the right way to do it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Auto-grouping itself doesn't do much for teamwork, sure, it's mostly to make the job easier for the commander, I think, which is important. What's been suggested on the teamwork side of things is squad respawning - basically ensuring that people stick with a squad. It is a bit of 'forcing' really, but it could work. I think the idea is that if you're part of a group, you'll spawn where they are - a forward position, so you wouldn't have to run all the way back there; if you wandered off, you'd become unassigned and you'd lose that advantage. It encourages you to stick together, if only to avoid the tedium of running back to the frontlines.
<!--QuoteBegin-knorp+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(knorp)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Leaders would not have "special superpowers", except setting the squad's mobile IP... and leading his squad to victory!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ...and then the leader dies.
<!--QuoteBegin-knorp+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(knorp)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would also not be excited of just doing the same again... Who would?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oooh, I dunno about that. I would have gladly taken an updated version of NS1. But yeah, since it's not happening, I think we'll just stick with NS2, and hope everything turns out for the best. One's an update, one's a sequel. I think they'd both be good.
<!--quoteo(post=1669293:date=Feb 2 2008, 01:51 PM:name=afratnikov)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(afratnikov @ Feb 2 2008, 01:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1669293"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Max: Yeah, I guess it would be like an OnStar [?] or whatever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1670287:date=Feb 12 2008, 01:41 PM:name=Maian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Maian @ Feb 12 2008, 01:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1670287"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's probably <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A*_search_algorithm" target="_blank">A*</a>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I meant <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onstar" target="_blank">OnStar</a>, but it would probably be implemented with A*!
I just skimmed through extremely quickly, but talking about a couple of the concerns (I apologize if someone has already said something similar):
- If people don't like marines having complete control over what weapons they want, how about having the commander buy/assign a pool which the marines can pick/buy from. Similar to that mod that's already in NS where you go to the arms lab and select your weapon from what the commander has dropped. Maybe half of the overall cost of the weapon is taken from global resources when the commander 'allows' it, then the other half from individual resources when a player buys it? (this idea being independent of any tech research of course)
- There should obviously be some sort of penalty for respawning with your squad after you die, individual resources would probably make the most sense here. If a player doesn't want to respawn with their squad, how about letting them choose if they want to respawn normally at an IP without any penalty? In fact, make it a timer so if the player doesn't click or press something to spawn with their squad, they'll automatically respawn at the IP after a certain amount of time anyway. As far as weapons go, the player should just drop it on death like in the current game, then if they want it back when they spawn with their squad, they should have to go pick it up themselves (that's if it hasn't already been picked up).
IF marines have to stop or disrupt to have a dead squad-mate spawn in or revive or whatever, THEN skulking might be able to pin an entire squad. There's the possibility that this could mean some very strategically significant gameplay- it all depends.
Comments
Comm dropping weapons is easy to do, its a false point to say remove it because its hard or bothersome. Marines will just sit around the armoury picking their guns or even if they know what they want they have to come out of the atmosphere of the game to navigate some menus to get a gun. Unless its done REALLY well, that will always be a problem. also there will be no more dropping "packs" near IPs so rines can spawn and go. comm cant assign the team say 2 GLs and everyone else hmg/shotty or whatever. The point is it adds wasted time to the game, comn has less things to do and there's less tactical control for the commander.
Squad system I also think is a bad idea because such a feature is only good when the game employs large maps (BF2 or whatever large). It is also would be bad for balance in NS as there would be no need for a phase gates and that will bring marines into a tactical advantage in deployment rate of units getting to the front lines. it is NOT a bother to walk from base to the front lines as the front lines in NS can be anywhere. It would also destroy some of the atmosphere for the game also.
There are a number of points I could say against the alien commander system too, but as I don't really know any details it would be pointless. The only positive side of it I can see it will be easier to make/balance the game with an alien commander, while removing the aliens feel.
I would like to say make NS2 a port of NS, but.... That's just going to be a waste of time. Add to NS, is all I can think off. Flame throwers, more tech, more commanding options for commanders, make battles more epic and stuff like that.
I'd imagine it'd hurt teamwork because people won't care about dying. It stops being bad. People will just go off on their own, get killed, then spawn back to their squad.
Plus, it'd suck to walk all the way back to the base to get your shotty back. I'd rather spawn back at base, where I know I'm safe, and walk back to my squad.
I do like the squad idea, though. Alien squads should be called "packs" though, to keep the theme going.
As for the 'they'll sit around base choosing weapons' argument - come on, there are only a few weapons in the game. Or were you just joking?
Even if there were a great number of choices - as in CS; well in CS do people hang around base for five minutes choosing weapons? And <b>don't</b> give me that 'we don't want NS to be like CS, do we?' argument, because you know it has nothing to do with it.
As for the grouping issues, it's easy enough to put a little toggle button to turn auto-grouping on/off, I'm sure?
And finally, I highly doubt that they'll take commander 'hot dropping' of equipment out.
I think what a lot of people here don't <i>seem to</i> understand, is that <b>we're</b> (ideally) the <b>minor</b>ity. <b>We're</b> the core group of gamers that can be relied upon to definitely play the game, but we're hardly large in number. UWE's mission is to <i>unite the world through play</i> - can they do that with the handful of players that frequent this forum?
If you want to encourage order and cooperation, how about instituting a commander ranking system? A player who's steam ID registers him more wins or more good votes or something would have priority over other people when applying to the comm chair. They did that in bf2 and it weeded out the n00bs. And for marine-marine cooperation, perhaps per round the commander could have an automatically rendered list of players who in the current round have completed the most waypoints, or died trying, so that he would better select who to spend cash on. Pleasing the comm in this fashion would inspire cooperation, and the ranking system would ensure good commanders.
I actually took the time to read the Six Days in Sanji story long ago and loved it - I even read the explanations of how everything in ns works (nano bots and such). This added a great sense of story to my everyday play (And sadly, yes it was everyday). I think it would serve you guys financially to write the game to follow the sense that there really is a struggle between humanity and aliens going on: enhancing the role of the hives and hive minds, and limiting the "acts of God" (such as people magically appearing next to their buddies). Making the effects believable will be the difference between a gamer telling his friend "Yeah, ns2 is this game where you're a marine who gets these awesome sci fi guns and has to use them to clear out spaceships from creapy ass aliens," and," Yeah, ns2 is this game where you run around and randomly shoot weird dog things that walk on walls, and pigs that crap out trees," simply because the game will make sense. I'm much more likely to buy a game my friends say is cool; if you make a really interesting and believable game, all you need to do to get 5 people to buy it is get one of their friends to buy it. If you strip away the believability and atmosphere, all you have is action, and if you want action for the 360 you get GoW.
Oh, and for the commander-mode console controller problem, just have a combination of buttons select something. Holding A would bring up one menu, then pressing one of the other 3 billion buttons on the controller would select a certain item. Anyone would pickup the combo's quickly.
damn, thats a very valid point, and one that i completely overlooked. currently if you die and respawn at marine start, you leg it back to where you were, and try a little bit harder to prevent it from happening again. this is probably one of the most basic fundamental influences that made me get better at NS. and it still works 5 years later, if i die, it might annoy me a bit, but i'll run back to the same spot with more determination than ever to kick some kharaa butt.
and yes, i can see how it would benefit lamers/griefers. some idiot stands there knifing thin air, only to die, respawn, and back you up again with their oxygen killing blade attack....
<!--quoteo(post=1669470:date=Feb 4 2008, 05:21 AM:name=SgtHydra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SgtHydra @ Feb 4 2008, 05:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1669470"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd rather spawn back at base, where I know I'm safe<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol i've been spawn camped at marine start far to many times... marine start is never 100% safe, in fact, its usually the most vulnerable area for the marines (at least hives, dbl res etc usually get locked down)
The commander already buffs his team and debuffs the aliens. Via medpacks, ammo and scanner sweeps. I think there is great room for improving the role the commander has in combat that can make the command experience a lot more active. I think a game where the comm and have an influence on the outcome of combat will make squads more likely to form. If the commander has area effect buffs then people will group together to make them cheaper and more effective.
If you look at how the commander applies damage in NS, it's through static structures. Turrets and electricity allow the commander to apply damage, but a more dynamic system would be better. If the commander had AI controlled droids that could be issued orders then the team could work with the droid to achieve an objective. You could end up with a system like the APC in ET:QW where the commander could build an assault bot that the marines could group with to push through alien defenses. The commander would then get to control the unit and actively make tactical decisions to increase the effectiveness of the unit.
Comm dropping weapons is easy to do, its a false point to say remove it because its hard or bothersome. Marines will just sit around the armoury picking their guns or even if they know what they want they have to come out of the atmosphere of the game to navigate some menus to get a gun. Unless its done REALLY well, that will always be a problem. also there will be no more dropping "packs" near IPs so rines can spawn and go. comm cant assign the team say 2 GLs and everyone else hmg/shotty or whatever. The point is it adds wasted time to the game, comn has less things to do and there's less tactical control for the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->What if it's done like Empires, where the Commander can choose to lock the structure to save res or to manually distribute items and make sure people are taking the most suitable equipment. You could even have a WYSIWYG toggle menu where the Commander can enable and monitor equipment research and toggle equipment on/off for distribution.
The point here is that, until you master the hotkeys for meds, ammo and weapons, you are not a capable Commander. This is stupid, because it means so much fewer people get to play the RTS side of the game. If the Commander could choose how much fiddling he wanted to do, newcomers and veteran commanders could enjoy the Commander role on an equal footing. This isn't about dumbing down the commander, this is about making it more accessible so Commanding is more about what strategic and tactical decisions you make, rather than how quick your medspam is. Commander shouldn't be about twitch, it should be about taking gambles, resource management, leadership and on-the-fly decisiveness.
The point here is that, until you master the hotkeys for meds, ammo and weapons, you are not a capable Commander. This is stupid, because it means so much fewer people get to play the RTS side of the game. If the Commander could choose how much fiddling he wanted to do, newcomers and veteran commanders could enjoy the Commander role on an equal footing. This isn't about dumbing down the commander, this is about making it more accessible so Commanding is more about what strategic and tactical decisions you make, rather than how quick your medspam is. Commander shouldn't be about twitch, it should be about taking gambles, resource management, leadership and on-the-fly decisiveness.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you’re saying is based on player’s ability to command and come up with strats and lead your team to victory; I agree it should be a little more easier for players to command and new comers. But if new comers come into the game and play they are less likely to know how aliens work and there evolving tech + the maps so they are likely to lose the game already. If you want to make people commanding skills be better either have ranking servers where players ability’s are the same or include tutorials for people to practice or the sain thing give them easier tools to work with and guidiance!, a lot of people are not able to direct there team or develop strats simply because they are not cut out for that part of the game. And the hot keys matter for everything in to responding for demands of players and putting down buildings quicker, makes all the difference within tournaments and public play. If the commander is busy playing with droids he is less likely to play a tactical role with his teammates. Your trying to create this balance for making the game suitable for old veterans + new comers for them to pick up easy and to be honest you can't go right down the middle and cater for both your only going to divide people up in my opinion, having epic cool long battles is my idea of fun and leading my team to victory through a closely matched game is what I like to see. Yes playing with droids and stuff sounds like a cool idea but it will grow old and won’t be as practical. There is a reason within the Army that there is different chain of command and sectors as people can't do everything, not all soldiers can come up with tactics and is why they rely on people to lead them formulate plans.
Also adding AI stuff to control will be a lot to handle for the source engine server side, the networking in which the source engine deals with its not very good at all especially with the different tickrates and reg issues adding futher stuff for the server to do will cause problems. Look at reg issues within CSS + DODS and many other modifications and most of them don’t have as near much details or actions going on. Empiresmod has done sorta well for the vehicle side of this aspect but the infantry and weapons don’t reg and crapy frame animation and teleporting issues and weapons fire going completely where its not meant to in some cases.
+100 Points Hyperion spot on!
Medpack hotkey
Ammo hotkey
Some knowledge of the game
The rest can be done by clicking unless you are going to need 15 shotties for a rush. Of course hotkeys help, but you don't really have to know the system inside out at all. I think med and ammo hotkeys shouldn't be anything more difficult than learning to blink by using +movement. I agree that the comming is confusing and takes some twitch skills, but not more than any other role in the game. Generally speaking its just the biggest role the game has, making it a big factor when your comm isn't the best there is. Making it more inuitive is good, but I don't think you can remove much without affecting the strategical depth a lot.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your trying to create this balance for making the game suitable for old veterans + new comers for them to pick up easy and to be honest you can't go right down the middle and cater for both your only going to divide people up in my opinion<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yes, you can. As I tried to explain before, having a system that toggles between automatic and manual allows any commander to be as hands-on as they like. A veteran comm who has got used to the hotkeys and doing things quickly can restrict armoury/proto distribution and choose to drop it himself. A beginner commander can leave this up to the players (if he trusts them) and restrict it if he's running low on res. He could turn off expensive items like the grenade launcher and heavy machine gun and just let players take shotguns.
I really don't see how giving a player the option as to how much he wants to have to deal with at once (but STILL catering for players that want to do everything manually) is a problem? It's freakin' blessing!
On squad spawning, consider the "sickly gazelle" argument. Marines = gazelles and skulks = wolves or whatever. As a skulk, I like being able to pick off the weak or wandering marine, as the group of marines advances. By the time they get to their destination, they should be sufficiently weakened to take them head on. But squad spawning defeats the point of this. It also makes ambushes totally irrelevant unless you can totally wipe out the group. This sounds very unfun for skulks.
That are not good ideas.
Good ideas:
- Automatic assign groups by distance.
- GOOD HELP AND VIDEOTUTORIALS.Translate help into lot of lenguages.
- COMMANDER more strategic, less tactic (improve tech-tree, choose crytical ways).
- And please, respect NS clan games.If NS is alive atm is for clanners.Public and casual gamers only need a new graphic engine...
NS is a good idea, take the 1/3 new and 1/3 improved please.
I'd imagine it'd hurt teamwork because people won't care about dying. It stops being bad. People will just go off on their own, get killed, then spawn back to their squad.
Plus, it'd suck to walk all the way back to the base to get your shotty back. I'd rather spawn back at base, where I know I'm safe, and walk back to my squad.
I do like the squad idea, though. Alien squads should be called "packs" though, to keep the theme going.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well if its an auto squad assignments, if you wander off away from your group you would be unassigned from your group. Then when you die you spawn back at base like always. Instead I would like to know what would trigger the spawn back in. is it every x seconds, is it x seconds after the last death, is it x seconds after the last damage taken by a team member, is it x sec after the last enemy got withen a ranged etc.
And if you listened I believe they said if your a shotty, and your out in the field and die, and spawn back in with your team, you spawn in with your weapon set.
I would like to know how they plan to make sure that everyone doesnt just get HMGs (once they are researched)?
<!--QuoteBegin-Hyperion+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hyperion)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No sane military organization would let their soldiers choose what weapons they wanted,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's where you're wrong. Special forces operators around the world give their personnel complete freedom in the equipment they choose to arm themselves with.
<!--QuoteBegin-juice+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(juice)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Unfortunately, it seems like under the unified system, they would be spending their individual res and not the team's res, so the idea doesn't apply.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a joke, right? The very definition of a unified resource system is that there is ONLY ONE POOL - team res. So yes, they would be spending team's res and yes, the idea does apply.
<!--QuoteBegin-MAAAD+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MAAAD)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- COMMANDER more strategic, less tactic (improve tech-tree, choose crytical ways).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More strategic, less tactic? I was kinda thinking the opposite. I'd like the commander to do more than just research, I'd like him to direct the flow of battle.
Of course, that kinda goes against the idea of making comming easier for newcomers; which is a problem..
<!--QuoteBegin-obsid+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(obsid)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well if its an auto squad assignments, if you wander off away from your group you would be unassigned from your group. Then when you die you spawn back at base like always.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I had the same, or a similar, idea.
<!--QuoteBegin-obsid+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(obsid)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Instead I would like to know what would trigger the spawn back in. is it every x seconds, is it x seconds after the last death, is it x seconds after the last damage taken by a team member, is it x sec after the last enemy got withen a ranged etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've got the same question.
<!--QuoteBegin-obsid+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(obsid)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And if you listened I believe they said if your a shotty, and your out in the field and die, and spawn back in with your team, you spawn in with your weapon set.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What? Did they say this?
I think that even if squad respawning doesn't go in, auto-squad-grouping should still.
The Unknown Worlds Devs said they would play test it, IMHO, that is far better than other developers do for us gamers when they release a beta test as "gold" and have us figure out their game isn't fun but rather frustrating after we've already paid for it.
sorry dude but thats your definition, and therefore your opinion.... that doesnt mean its the same definition that the dev's have (unless you can provide me with a direct quote the says otherwise). look at their quotes in the below link, they seen to refer to unifying the resource system between the two teams (so thay are more similar and easier to learn), more than anything else.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103728&view=findpost&p=1668992" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1668992</a>
*edit* dont get me wrong, you're certainly entitled to your opinions, but until the dev's detail exactly how the new system will work, they will be just that - opinions.
It's more of a conjecture. An estimation arrived-to from (unfortunately) limited data.
edit: and just for you, I've edited my reply to the aforementioned thread, to include a greater basis for "my opinion".
Being a major mod player, I'm happy and depressed by some of the ideas.
First off, allowing weapons loadouts and classes for Marines doesn't sit well with me. My favorite part of NS was the dichotomy between Aliens and Marines. Marines were weapon based and tended to look similar. Aliens were class based and individual badasses. Perhaps minor loadouts would be nice and take a little load off the Commander, but making Marines fully class based and buying their own equipment is, at least to me, going away from the NS spirit.
Secondly, while having an Alien commander might be cool, there's a disparity of good comms as it is, in any RTS/FPS game. Forcing each game to have competent commanders on BOTH teams just sounds like a bad idea and subject to serious pain if you do it wrong.
Spawning with your squad is an interesting idea. Maybe, just maybe, you can pull it off. However, there are so many ways it can go wrong, most have already been mentioned. It's not about "missing" that cool battle. NS was never about making sure you got into a good fight. It, at is core, is a First-Person Shooter Real-Time Strategy. It's beginning to feel like we're losing some of the RTS elements, forcing Marines to have to walk from spawn points or build PGs to compensate. Again, I don't know if you'll think of some awesome way to do it right, I just know all the ways it can go wrong. Perhaps you could do it like Empires Mod, where reviving your squad is a special ability that costs something.
Overall, I'm excited to see what you guys do. It sounds like you're pulling alot of ideas from other games and mixing and matching them to NS. Alot, and I mean ALOT, sound like they're derivatives of Empires Mod, perhaps the only other successful FPS/RTS blend out there right now. There's some good things, and there's some bad.
In the end, though, it's your game. Make it how you want. You don't have to cater to our ideas and values, you'll inevitably turn away some and cause others to flock.
Also, something I found while rummaging around:
<a href="http://gamingsalembic.wordpress.com/" target="_blank">http://gamingsalembic.wordpress.com/</a>
It's a blog about the theoretical side of game design.
- About auto-grouping marine squads : I definitely think there should be ways to force teamplay, but I don't think it's the right way to do it. First, there MUST be some kind of leaders for squads/groups/whateveryoucallthem: technically, I can't imagine any algorithm allowing to regroup nearby marines; what if two groups come close to eachother? what is the "center position" of a squad that is constantly moving, spreading, metting/crossing marines from other squad(s)... Commander should be able to designate, based on knowledge/stats of players, a (very) few marines as "leaders" (with a fixed maximum), around whom "common" marines could regroup. I also think, like many, that squad spawning (even automatic spawning on a squad leader as in BF2) should not be "triggered" by any squad member. Look in other directions, like the one adopted in PR (project reality: bf2 mod where teamplay is mandatory ): a squad leader could use a mobile IP (as somebody suggested), but droping it on the ground. He could only have a single such IP at any time, and aliens could (easily) destroy it. You can see it like an advanced rally point. Some will say "Hey this is NS not BF2 or a BF2 mod!!!" Indeed. But what is the point of trying to reinvent stuff that's already been adressed, bug-fixed, patched, improved (like in PR for BF2 basic spawn system). Leaders would not have "special superpowers", except setting the squad's mobile IP... and leading his squad to victory! There could also be some limitations for IP setting: number of members in the squad, distance to enemy hives, ressources of the leader, ...
- About alien commander...
As I said in a previous thread (adressing the videocast introducing the brand new Hive system), I think too many people focus on the "commander" name for alien side; so they imagine a player "sitting" in a hive, providing waypoints and upgrades to other alien players... making aliens sorts of marines with "alien skin". I merely see an alien commander as the mind of a particular hive, allowing aliens to have several "commanders". Let's call them Hiveminds (not my idea). In the videocast, we see a hive swallowing a gorge, just as a marine would take place into a marine command... If the hive is a living entity, why is it supposed to need some gorge to take place into it to have a thinking mind? Why a gorge doesn't simply <b><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->evolve<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> into a hive? Thus we would have 1 to 3 small commanders, with powers limited to the hive area (zone infested by DI). Each would be in charge of 1) defending the infested area, possibly giving some limited boosts to aliens nearby (whose role would clearly be to defend it as well) and 2) to manage local spawning by allowing ressources to more or less eggs/fireflies. And as proposed before, the Hive player, could also be able to allow ressources to increasing DI, or get back ressources by decreasing it. If the Hive is destroyed, the 'Mind' player is killed. Another gorge (possibly the same player) could come and evolves into a hive, later on. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" /> <!--coloro:#808000--><span style="color:#808000"><!--/coloro--><b>-></b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" /> <!--coloro:#808000--><span style="color:#808000"><!--/coloro--><b>-></b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/hive5.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::hive::" border="0" alt="hive5.gif" />
To summurize, Hive (seen as a specific alien class) players, would be specifically in charge of defense and spawn (each player would choose at which Hive he wishes to spawn), while other classes would still be all-around classes (witth possibly boosts from Hive when defending, like say, more HP).
Of course, it brings about another problem: what about the first Hive? As someone said before, BF2 commander election is made before round actually starts (or when current commander is dismissed), on a player rank basis (if more than one players request to be the firstcom/mind). Think this could be the same here, to decide which player will be the first Hive's mind... until it's destroyed.
This would make the alien "intelligence" system totally dissimilar from its human counterpart.
About developpers' wishes to create a brand new game, not just an NS with better graphics and new weapons: keep going guys!!! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> I would also not be excited of just doing the same again... Who would?
Blizzard has made it their policy not to set any release dates: every game is "done when it's done." This way, they can assure that when their games are released, they are very polished and without bugs. That is a big reason why their games are so successful. I hope UW makes a similar policy. And i don't see how knowing the release date would be important right now. I guess knowing whether it's released in 6 months or 24 would make a difference, but at this point i'd imagine the development to be very unpredictable. Underestimating would be the worst thing: if they say it's released Fall '08 and then isn't released till well into '09 people will feel angry. On the other hand, if they say "You'll certainly play it Spring '10," you would give up on it. And the uncertainty of release date could easily be 6 months, even 12, considering possible problems in estimating (podcast 15). So yeah... i wouldn't expect any release dates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with your points besides that one. Sorry no matter how much time, 10 years, 20 years, it is IMPOSSIBLE to release a bug free game. PC games require constant attention, because of updated hardware, software, and the fact that everyone in the world has a different rig with billions of combinations the game will have bugs. The point I want to make is that Steam, allows you to do small updates daily to fix new tiny issues and/or other things. Blizzard is not godlike, they don't give release dates because they don't want to miss them. You can even look at the number of hits on the SC2 website, they still havn't released zerg data when they clearly have in-game videos with minimum of 5 zerg units. Blizzard can afford to not care because when it releases the game magazines and television and Activision Blizzard (yes the VU + Activision merge) will push the hipe.
Do you think UW will be able to push that kind of hipe? I have much experience with this genre. Savage, and Savage 2, both good games, but could not get the hipe for their new game Savage 2 which just came out, did you know this? www.s2games.com
Point is I believe dead lines give a target goal for the project. There is a point when you spend to much time adding new things to the game at which the game becomes lost with its identity. A mapped out plan of attack and stages of development on a time table. Who knows they might have this, but that would mean they also have a suggested release date. Then would be hiding it out of fear. If you have people that are saying they willing to watch update by update for a year without knowing if it even coming out, you got some pretty dedicated fans watching and really doubt they would be upset because a handful of guys failed to make a suggested deadline that the biggest gaming companies in the world hardly ever make.
P.S - the people that complain about missing a deadline are the same people that will complain about units, weapons, wahh add another race, wahh. They will always find something to complain about.
<!--QuoteBegin-spellman23+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->First off, allowing weapons loadouts and classes for Marines doesn't sit well with me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's great, because there won't be classes for marines. Or am I the only one that heard that in the podcast?
But yes, marines will be 'buying' weapons. Though we have as yet no idea how that'll happen - or how players on the Kharaa will evolve into higher lifeforms. I would really like to know this.
<!--QuoteBegin-spellman23+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Secondly, while having an Alien commander might be cool, there's a disparity of good comms as it is, in any RTS/FPS game. Forcing each game to have competent commanders on BOTH teams just sounds like a bad idea and subject to serious pain if you do it wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a good point.
But then again, having a commander mode on both sides would force more players to try to play commander, and give more players the <b>chance</b> to play as commander. Good commanders don't appear out of thin air, they gotta learn that part of the game first.
<!--QuoteBegin-spellman23+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's beginning to feel like we're losing some of the RTS elements, forcing Marines to have to walk from spawn points or build PGs to compensate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't get it, are you saying that it's less RTS because marines have to walk from spawn to the location they're needed?
Because actually, isn't it more like "infantry units"(players) are "produced"(spawned) at the "Barracks" (Infantry Portal)? The "population cap" being the number of players on your team minus one (you the commander).
Sounds pretty RTS to me. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
<!--QuoteBegin-spellman23+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You don't have to cater to our ideas and values, you'll inevitably turn away some and cause others to flock.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh. That wasn't nice, but it was wise.
<!--QuoteBegin-knorp+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(knorp)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->About auto-grouping marine squads: I definitely think there should be ways to force teamplay<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say you should definitely not force people to play as part of the team - not force people to play in a way they don't want to (or with people they don't want to); but instead encourage them to do so. I think the problem is ignorance, people don't seem to know, or learn, that in NS, running around in groups as a Marine is important to your survival, and important to the team's victory.
<!--QuoteBegin-knorp+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(knorp)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but I don't think it's the right way to do it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Auto-grouping itself doesn't do much for teamwork, sure, it's mostly to make the job easier for the commander, I think, which is important.
What's been suggested on the teamwork side of things is squad respawning - basically ensuring that people stick with a squad. It is a bit of 'forcing' really, but it could work. I think the idea is that if you're part of a group, you'll spawn where they are - a forward position, so you wouldn't have to run all the way back there; if you wandered off, you'd become unassigned and you'd lose that advantage. It encourages you to stick together, if only to avoid the tedium of running back to the frontlines.
<!--QuoteBegin-knorp+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(knorp)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Leaders would not have "special superpowers", except setting the squad's mobile IP... and leading his squad to victory!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...and then the leader dies.
<!--QuoteBegin-knorp+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(knorp)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would also not be excited of just doing the same again... Who would?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oooh, I dunno about that. I would have gladly taken an updated version of NS1. But yeah, since it's not happening, I think we'll just stick with NS2, and hope everything turns out for the best.
One's an update, one's a sequel. I think they'd both be good.
That's probably <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A*_search_algorithm" target="_blank">A*</a>.
I meant <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onstar" target="_blank">OnStar</a>, but it would probably be implemented with A*!
- If people don't like marines having complete control over what weapons they want, how about having the commander buy/assign a pool which the marines can pick/buy from. Similar to that mod that's already in NS where you go to the arms lab and select your weapon from what the commander has dropped. Maybe half of the overall cost of the weapon is taken from global resources when the commander 'allows' it, then the other half from individual resources when a player buys it? (this idea being independent of any tech research of course)
- There should obviously be some sort of penalty for respawning with your squad after you die, individual resources would probably make the most sense here. If a player doesn't want to respawn with their squad, how about letting them choose if they want to respawn normally at an IP without any penalty? In fact, make it a timer so if the player doesn't click or press something to spawn with their squad, they'll automatically respawn at the IP after a certain amount of time anyway. As far as weapons go, the player should just drop it on death like in the current game, then if they want it back when they spawn with their squad, they should have to go pick it up themselves (that's if it hasn't already been picked up).