<!--quoteo(post=1684557:date=Jul 26 2008, 08:03 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zek @ Jul 26 2008, 08:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684557"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[bunnyhop is] extremely flawed ... NS had Leap, Blink, and Lerk flight, all of which required a lot of skill to control properly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're attacking the intuitive merits of bunny hop on the grounds that pressing 2+attack or 3+attack to go forward makes sense?
It seems to me the problem with this debate is that people assume that if bhop is removed it will be replaced with something that requires a lot less skill. Even in NS1 there are abilities that in themselves require skill. Fade for example: Blinking is NOT hard, but blinking WELL is. It is a skill which, i think, strikes a good balance between reflexes and intelligence. What i like about NS is that you have to be smart to play well, not just have good reflexes. The best players intelligently assess a situation and plan their attack around the risks they are confronting.
imho, bunny hopping does not offer this.
Apart from this theres the fact that it makes the game less realistic, and realism does matter to an extent. If it is completely ignored a game can lose its sense of immersion. Now if you take the new Day of Defeat update as an example, with its stupid kill-cam and silly tf2 types achievements and dominating stuff, the sense that you are fighting in world war 2 begins to fade. The experience of being a soldier in bitter suburban fighting is overshadowed by the cartooney sounds and "zaney" killcam. To me this is an example of a game ruined by a lack of regard or respect for realism. I accept that some people just play for frags, but for me if i cant take the game seriously, i dont have as much fun.
Well anyway, my point is that the deletion of bhop does not have to mean less skill, just skill that is executed in a more intelligent and hopefully realistic way.
<!--quoteo(post=1684568:date=Jul 27 2008, 12:53 AM:name=wankalot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wankalot @ Jul 27 2008, 12:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684568"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems to me the problem with this debate is that people assume that if bhop is removed it will be replaced with something that requires a lot less skill. Even in NS1 there are abilities that in themselves require skill. Fade for example: Blinking is NOT hard, but blinking WELL is. It is a skill which, i think, strikes a good balance between reflexes and intelligence. What i like about NS is that you have to be smart to play well, not just have good reflexes. The best players intelligently assess a situation and plan their attack around the risks they are confronting.
imho, bunny hopping does not offer this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd like to remind everyone again that bunny hopping isn't a feature based on skill but an engine bug. Further, why should bunny hopping be replaced by anything if its removed? Playing as a marine means you need to have a decent amount of aim and the ability to coordinate with your team, know eachothers weaknesses, and be able to exploit the weaknesses in an alien lifeform that comes your way. For example, when fighting an Onos or Fade of any skill level, 'dodging' (crouch and move in a direction over and over again) can help you avoid getting slashed by a Fade or eaten by an Onos. The Aliens however are more tuned to stealth, hit and run tactics, the ability to run fast and/or silent and also able use team coordination and misdirection to achieve their objectives. There is a level of skill needed to play effectively on either team. While the focus of marines is technology/firepower/aiming, the focus for aliens is speed/stealth save for the onos who's main use is meatshield/hard hitter.
Sure bunny hopping requires some skill, but exploiting any engine flaw in any game usually requires some sort of skill or simple practice. The real skill involves aiming, the ability to modify ones strategy given certain situational changes, knowing ones limits and properly exploiting other peoples weaknesses to your advantage. These skills have been the core of practically every FPS created and I believe creating a method for marines to move faster on their feet is neccesary however bunny hopping isn't the solution at all. The fact that skulks can bunny hop is believable. I know that some have shot down the argument that bunny hopping shouldn't be included in NS2 because its not believable for a marine to bunny hop because realism isn't as important as game play, but if your gameplay involves something that is out of the bounds of your game then you really haven't added anything to it. I'll clarify by example.
Unreal Tournament gives players the ability to double jump, that is, to jump again in the air at the height of your first jump. This adds to the game play because Unreal Tournament is set in a semi-over-the-top futuristic environment that's meant to be fast paced, full of action and an enemy can come at you from any direction and from anywhere. Skill involved in this game are the ability to use each different weapon effectively given the situation, the ability to double jump and multi-jump to avoid damage or to get to special locations in a level to receive a power up and general knowledge of each map.
While Natural Selection is set in a futuristic world with jet packs and such, adding a feature like double jumping and mid-air dodging off of air, although it may be fun, it would not add to the game play. In fact, it may even take away from it. You simply don't want to see a marine double jumping over an onos, although I admit it may be cool to watch, it would destroy the game play value and turn Natural Selection into a jumping spam fest with a 'The Matrix' feel to it. This is not in the spirit of Natural Selection, imho. Bunny hopping is much like this. It might be fun to be bunny hopping around a level and might even be great for the gaming experience for those that do it but it takes away from the general feel of the entire game as well as the experience for others.
<!--quoteo(post=1684557:date=Jul 26 2008, 07:03 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zek @ Jul 26 2008, 07:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684557"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I certainly think that movement skill is a crucial aspect of alien gameplay that adds a great deal of depth to the game. <i>However</i>, bunnyhopping is an extremely flawed way to accomplish this. It's obscure, counter-intuitive and ruins the atmosphere of the game. Movement skill should be introduced with proper mechanics and abilities given to the alien lifeforms. NS had Leap, Blink, and Lerk flight, all of which required a lot of skill to control properly. Rather than just falling back on an accidental game mechanic from the HL engine, we should be looking at ways to implement a natural skillcurve that is intuitive without sacrificing depth. Skulks especially could use improvements to wallwalking to give them better approach options IMHO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you, Zek, for the most intelligent post in the topic.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're attacking the intuitive merits of bunny hop on the grounds that pressing 2+attack or 3+attack to go forward makes sense?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. The game tells you that Blink is a movement skill. Leap is a movement skill. They make your character move faster, etc. Nowhere does the game tell you or hint that you should be capable of moving twice as fast as normal by jumping from side to side while wiggling your mouse in a certain fashion - and you aren't even supposed to push your W key to move forward??? You're fooling yourself if you think that bhopping is even close to as intuitive as blink, leap, lerk flight. I agree that improvements to wallwalking and/or an improved implementation of walljumping would be a reasonable way to go here in the absence of bhopping.
<!--quoteo(post=1684557:date=Jul 27 2008, 12:03 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zek @ Jul 27 2008, 12:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684557"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I certainly think that movement skill is a crucial aspect of alien gameplay that adds a great deal of depth to the game. <i>However</i>, bunnyhopping is an extremely flawed way to accomplish this. It's obscure, counter-intuitive and ruins the atmosphere of the game. Movement skill should be introduced with proper mechanics and abilities given to the alien lifeforms. NS had Leap, Blink, and Lerk flight, all of which required a lot of skill to control properly. Rather than just falling back on an accidental game mechanic from the HL engine, we should be looking at ways to implement a natural skillcurve that is intuitive without sacrificing depth. Skulks especially could use improvements to wallwalking to give them better approach options IMHO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I can't really disagree, but the real trick is finding something equally enjoyable. Wallwalking is something, but I feel its still relatively limited when it comes to dodging and unpredictable movement. Wall pounces are already in the game and they add new possibilities, but still nothing compared to the present system. In addition, limiting jumping capabilities easily limits also the ability to chain different forms of movement.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Dalin Seivewright)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dalin Seivewright)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Further, why should bunny hopping be replaced by anything if its removed?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's a bit same as removing sg and gl from the game and not replacing it with anything. It's dumbing down the game and reducing the challenge both on the fps skills and tactical side.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For example, when fighting an Onos or Fade of any skill level, 'dodging' (crouch and move in a direction over and over again) can help you avoid getting slashed by a Fade or eaten by an Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The whole point is that the bhop and air control add new options. I wouldn't have played ns for this many years if the dodging was always repeanting the same move.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Aliens however are more tuned to stealth, hit and run tactics, the ability to run fast and/or silent and also able use team coordination and misdirection to achieve their objectives. There is a level of skill needed to play effectively on either team. While the focus of marines is technology/firepower/aiming, the focus for aliens is speed/stealth save for the onos who's main use is meatshield/hard hitter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Says who? Skulk is a stealth/pack lifeform anyway, the present movement system just gives you more ways to act when you decide to make the move.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The real skill involves aiming, the ability to modify ones strategy given certain situational changes, knowing ones limits and properly exploiting other peoples weaknesses to your advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's exactly why bhop is such a great thingy. You've got a given situation, you decide to do something with the movement options you got, knowing your limits with the movement skill. Some of the decisions are to try to dodge by an unpredictable movement, or take advantage of the enemy positioning and given situation. All in all it gets very interesting, because you've got some many options.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While Natural Selection is set in a futuristic world with jet packs and such, adding a feature like double jumping and mid-air dodging off of air, although it may be fun, it would not add to the game play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Either you aren't really aware of the movement possibilities or you're trolling. Neither is good for your credibility.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It might be fun to be bunny hopping around a level and might even be great for the gaming experience for those that do it but it takes away from the general feel of the entire game as well as the experience for others.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's the problem. So far I've been trying to find ways to remove the negative effects and make it more approachable, but it doesn't seem to be getting much support.
<!--quoteo(post=1684259:date=Jul 23 2008, 12:35 AM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Jul 23 2008, 12:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684259"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->Making engine decisions based on realism is like making cooking decisions based on how pretty the ingredients are.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1684306:date=Jul 23 2008, 04:40 PM:name=juice)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(juice @ Jul 23 2008, 04:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684306"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->they're making their own engine. therefore it would not be a flaw it would be part of the game. the only question is whether it should be included as a feature.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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<!--quoteo(post=1684590:date=Jul 27 2008, 11:55 AM:name=frostymoose)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(frostymoose @ Jul 27 2008, 11:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684590"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->The game tells you that Blink is a movement skill.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1684402:date=Jul 24 2008, 08:20 PM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Underwhelmed @ Jul 24 2008, 08:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684402"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->Keep bhop in along with air control. Make holding down spacebar = jump on contact with ground, and add some documentation on how to bhop.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1684590:date=Jul 27 2008, 11:55 AM:name=frostymoose)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(frostymoose @ Jul 27 2008, 11:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684590"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... improvements to wallwalking and/or an improved implementation of walljumping<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please propose an actual system so that we can discuss its practical merits. "Improvements" doesn't mean anything to me besides "let's get rid of bhop and turn NS2 into TF2."
Even if you forget graphical realism, forget that it's an oversight in the movement code, forget that it's undocumented... it's still unintuitive. I have an appreciation for bunny-hopping. I enjoy watching videos and replays where it comes into play. I can even do it myself, though with unreliable regularity. It's a fascinating and skillful dance which I would hate to see go away. But it doesn't improve the gameplay (some might say it harms it) and it's unintuitive. Surely in a game such as this there are other more important things players should be paying attention to than gliding through hallways at maximum speed. Or if there isn't, what kind of game are we playing here?
I would like to see a trade-off of more intuitive skill elements placed in the game in place of bunny-hopping. Or at the very least a full adoption of bunny-hopping that provides documentation and perhaps some simple automation to make the more unreliable aspects easier to predict.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please propose an actual system so that we can discuss its practical merits. "Improvements" doesn't mean anything to me besides "let's get rid of bhop and turn NS2 into TF2."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm confused. So your saying that removing a contrived and frankly rather silly looking method of movement like bhop would make the game <i>more</i> like TF2? If anything bhop is the only part of NS1 that i think i CAN compare with the whacky, 100mph player movement in tf2. On the contrary i think the removal of bhop would make the game feel more polished and sophisticated. Just my opinion anyway.
And in response to your demand for a proposal for a replacement 'skill'... well i actually said it before: Types of alien skill that require skill and intelligence to use properly, that have a challenging yet not obscure learning curve.
And before you ask me what these skills are, well all i can say is i am not a game designer. suggestions for specific alien skills are difficult to offer if we do not yet know what the life forms will look like or how they will function. Furthermore such a suggestion would belong in a separate thread.
Oh yeah, and i do not dismiss the point that bhop NEEDS to be replaced. Perhaps without it people would use there heads more instead of charging in bhopping singing "cant touch this" in front of their pcs. The best kind of 'skills' in gaming can always be improved - In my experience bunny hopping is just divided into those that CAN and those that CAN'T, or even worse those THAT DONT EVEN KNOW what is.
Wankalot TF2 is not that fast-paced, so your argument based on bhopping being akin to TF2 is just... misinformed and misinforming.
NS (Alien movement, required Marine reactions) is faster by a long way. TFC was faster than TF2 as well. Honestly TF2 feels slow in comparison. Of course there are slower-paced games such as Counter-Strike, Call of Duty, Battlefield - but these are <i>realism</i> games. From the zero-recoil to the unrealistic friendly fire damage, NS is clearly more of an arena-style deatchmatch game than a realism sim (the beauty is that it combines relatively higher-level strategy with deathmatch gameplay at the average player level).
---
I really don't think it would be that hard to hardcode in a simplified bunnyhop system that maintains the tactical options of the current system but does away with its contrived and unintuitive controls. All the best games on this Earth are those that have very simple rules but near-infinite possibilities. Chess is a prime example. Chess is not complicated to play, the barrier-to-entry is no more than a 30 minute explanation to the average initiate. <i>Mastering</i> chess is another matter, and that's why it's regarded as such a great game. For me the optimum result is to have a bhop system that is simple to understand and easy to perform, but which has a dramatic positive effect on the amount of options available to the player at any given time.
<!--quoteo(post=1684636:date=Jul 28 2008, 10:18 AM:name=wankalot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wankalot @ Jul 28 2008, 10:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684636"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The best kind of 'skills' in gaming can always be improved -In my experience bunny hopping is just divided into those that CAN and those that CAN'T, or even worse those THAT DONT EVEN KNOW what is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is one of the big problems. Quite few people unable to bhop actually realize how many differences, states on learning and such there are. It's a whole different thing to reach mediocore 450 unit speed at ns_bhop and to gain high speeds with 2-3 hops under fire, hop up a set of stairs or to turn your forward movement into a flawless wall hop when you suddenly see a marine. On public games you'll most likely end direct dives because the skill differences are quite massive and most players don't even bother to be stealthy or dodge and also because nobody parasites and most often all you've got left is the direct charge when you find marines in the middle of the corridor at those speeds.
For years spectating Ed|Rush made me go 'wft, how did he do that'. That's simply because he was so damn good on controlling almost every movement aspect of the game.
There's a simple as hell way to make bunnyhopping intuitive and its to allow the player to gain speed simple by holding a direction and not touching the ground (jumping). Then its down to the player how much they dodge. Obviously with pogo-jumping from Q3, this becomes even simpler. I believe in the latest version Warsow implemented this (not to mention their brilliant dodge feature) and Painkiller has it too. Then I guess it's just a case of adding tips and making the model have kangaroo boots like the girl from Portal or something and you've got a somewhat intuitive movement system, at least no less than rocket jumping.
<!--quoteo(post=1684650:date=Jul 28 2008, 08:26 AM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MuYeah @ Jul 28 2008, 08:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684650"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's a simple as hell way to make bunnyhopping intuitive and its to allow the player to gain speed simple by holding a direction and not touching the ground (jumping). Then its down to the player how much they dodge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, that is a way to make it simple. <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->But it takes away everything interesting about bhop.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The <!--coloro:dodgerblue--><span style="color:dodgerblue"><!--/coloro-->dynamic<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> interaction between directionality and airspeed control while bunnyhopping is what makes it <!--coloro:dodgerblue--><span style="color:dodgerblue"><!--/coloro-->aesthetically appealing<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. It involves a <!--coloro:dodgerblue--><span style="color:dodgerblue"><!--/coloro-->finesse<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> of mouse control. I have also noticed that this often leads to a viewfield gesturing which approximates an <!--coloro:dodgerblue--><span style="color:dodgerblue"><!--/coloro-->infinity<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> symbol. The <!--coloro:dodgerblue--><span style="color:dodgerblue"><!--/coloro-->adaptation<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> of this motion to combat situations then becomes a <!--coloro:dodgerblue--><span style="color:dodgerblue"><!--/coloro-->creative experience<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, deepening gameplay.
In fact, there will probably be a game in the future which utilizes advanced patterning of mouse motion which overlays additional movement on top of the base movement and forms the basis for the game's fundamental skill set. NS unleashed the potential of bhop with the speed and maneuverability of the skulk, a melee class which must by its nature focus on its motion rather than its aim. But it is just the beginning. <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->Why take a step backward when we can take a step forward?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1684262:date=Jul 23 2008, 12:08 AM:name=Revenge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Revenge @ Jul 23 2008, 12:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunny hopping doesn't just provide a massive speed boost, it also makes a skulk really hard to shoot at.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, it doesn't. bunnyhopping skulks are the <b>easiest</b> targets to shoot in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1684650:date=Jul 28 2008, 01:26 PM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MuYeah @ Jul 28 2008, 01:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684650"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's a simple as hell way to make bunnyhopping intuitive and its to allow the player to gain speed simple by holding a direction and not touching the ground (jumping). Then its down to the player how much they dodge. Obviously with pogo-jumping from Q3, this becomes even simpler. I believe in the latest version Warsow implemented this (not to mention their brilliant dodge feature) and Painkiller has it too. Then I guess it's just a case of adding tips and making the model have kangaroo boots like the girl from Portal or something and you've got a somewhat intuitive movement system, at least no less than rocket jumping.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not familiar with the actual air curve mechanics of the painkiller, but if it allows the smooth air control (eg pulling off spirals and such midair) it might be a good alternative. I'm still a little worried how it can be balanced on lower skill levels, since people can easily bhop, but can't hit the hopping aliens that easily.
You will find the code that enables bunnyhopping, wall-straffing and all of that stuff in the shared client-server physics code of the mod. If you're basing your code on the HLDM example mod from Valve you're going to inherit the physics used for that mod unless you bother to go in there and change it. The NS devs have obviously mucked around a lot in there or you wouldn't have things like jetpacks, leap, lerk flight, wallwalking, different movement sounds for different player classes and surfaces and so forth.
The devs even made bunnyhopping more powerful by changing PM_PreventMegaBunnyJumping to be more lenient.
Here's the relevant code from pm_shared.c from the HLDM example in the mod SDK(obviously the NS devs have reworked it for lerks, changed PM_PreventMegaBunnyJumping to be less punishing, done various changes to prevent marines bunnyhopping etc.):
PM_PreventMegaBunnyJumping is called from the PM_Jump code which is called from PM_PlayerMove that serves as an entry point for all player movement and sorts out which kind of movement should be attempted based on player type, player state, key state etc. <!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->// Only allow bunny jumping up to 1.7x server / player maxspeed setting #define BUNNYJUMP_MAX_SPEED_FACTOR 1.7f
//----------------------------------------------------------------------------- // Purpose: Corrects bunny jumping ( where player initiates a bunny jump before other // movement logic runs, thus making onground == -1 thus making PM_Friction get skipped and // running PM_AirMove, which doesn't crop velocity to maxspeed like the ground / other // movement logic does. //----------------------------------------------------------------------------- void PM_PreventMegaBunnyJumping( void ) { // Current player speed float spd; // If we have to crop, apply this cropping fraction to velocity float fraction; // Speed at which bunny jumping is limited float maxscaledspeed;
// Don't divide by zero if ( maxscaledspeed <= 0.0f ) return;
spd = Length( pmove->velocity );
if ( spd <= maxscaledspeed ) return;
fraction = ( maxscaledspeed / spd ) * 0.65; //Returns the modifier for the velocity
VectorScale( pmove->velocity, fraction, pmove->velocity ); //Crop it down!. }<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
AirMove is called from PM_PlayerMove for players who are in the air and not spectators. <!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->/* =================== PM_AirMove
// Copy movement amounts fmove = pmove->cmd.forwardmove; smove = pmove->cmd.sidemove;
// Zero out z components of movement vectors pmove->forward[2] = 0; pmove->right[2] = 0; // Renormalize VectorNormalize (pmove->forward); VectorNormalize (pmove->right);
// Determine x and y parts of velocity for (i=0; i<2; i++) { wishvel[i] = pmove->forward[i]*fmove + pmove->right[i]*smove; } // Zero out z part of velocity wishvel[2] = 0;
// Determine maginitude of speed of move VectorCopy (wishvel, wishdir); wishspeed = VectorNormalize(wishdir);
// Clamp to server defined max speed if (wishspeed > pmove->maxspeed) { VectorScale (wishvel, pmove->maxspeed/wishspeed, wishvel); wishspeed = pmove->maxspeed; }
if (pmove->dead) return; if (pmove->waterjumptime) return;
// Cap speed //wishspd = VectorNormalize (pmove->wishveloc);
if (wishspd > 30) wishspd = 30; // Determine veer amount currentspeed = DotProduct (pmove->velocity, wishdir); // See how much to add addspeed = wishspd - currentspeed; // If not adding any, done. if (addspeed <= 0) return; // Determine acceleration speed after acceleration
accelspeed = accel * wishspeed * pmove->frametime * pmove->friction; // Cap it if (accelspeed > addspeed) accelspeed = addspeed;
PM_FlyMove is not very relevant to the mechanics of bunnyhopping, it just moves you in a straight line unless it hits something in which case it will clip your velocity and slide you against the hit planes etc.
pmove is a global of type playermove_s, which is too huge to post in full here but contains various player state variables.
pmove->cmd is a usercmd_t: <!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->typedef struct usercmd_s { short lerp_msec; // Interpolation time on client byte msec; // Duration in ms of command vec3_t viewangles; // Command view angles.
// intended velocities float forwardmove; // Forward velocity. float sidemove; // Sideways velocity. float upmove; // Upward velocity. byte lightlevel; // Light level at spot where we are standing. unsigned short buttons; // Attack buttons byte impulse; // Impulse command issued. byte weaponselect; // Current weapon id
// Experimental player impact stuff. int impact_index; vec3_t impact_position; } usercmd_t;<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
pmove->forward and pmove->right are vectors described as "// Vectors for angles"; point to the player's forward direction and right direction.
I believe the rest of the code above is quite self-explanatory and that anyone who can read C code and understands what happens when you apply the euler method for numerical solving of differential equations on a particle who's acceleration is roughly perpendicular to it's velocity with a large time-step can see why the above leads to bunnyhopping.
<!--quoteo(post=1684698:date=Jul 29 2008, 12:50 AM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Jul 29 2008, 12:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684698"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no, it doesn't. bunnyhopping skulks are the <b>easiest</b> targets to shoot in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed. Straight bunnyhopping without any frills(leaping, using diagonals instead of left or right to bunnyhop at a different angle, occassionaly turning twice in one jump...), you're going to be able to predict exactly where that skulk is going which makes aiming so much easier.
<!--quoteo(post=1684570:date=Jul 27 2008, 04:05 AM:name=Dalin Seivewright)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dalin Seivewright @ Jul 27 2008, 04:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684570"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The real skill involves aiming, the ability to modify ones strategy given certain situational changes, knowing ones limits and properly exploiting other peoples weaknesses to your advantage. These skills have been the core of practically every FPS created and I believe creating a method for marines to move faster on their feet is neccesary however bunny hopping isn't the solution at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> NS is NS because movement <b>isn't</b> secondary to aiming.
<!--quoteo(post=1684636:date=Jul 28 2008, 06:18 AM:name=wankalot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wankalot @ Jul 28 2008, 06:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684636"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The best kind of 'skills' in gaming can always be improved - In my experience bunny hopping is just divided into those that CAN and those that CAN'T, or even worse those THAT DONT EVEN KNOW what is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is almost opposite of what is actually true. You can't really put a line dividing "people who can bunnyhop" and "can't bunnyhop" because it isn't that simple if you think about what bunnyhopping really is--controlled air control. Air control isn't a foreign concept to most NS players, I'd say most players who are somewhat decent use some sort of jumping, and they(key part here) <b>strafe while jumping</b>, letting them change their direction. Those players are using a part of bunnyhopping even if they don't realize it.
So, lets say someone learns to fully bunnyhop.(which I agree is a problem, there should be more information available. If NS2 had tutorials, including a bunnyhopp tutorial, would learning to bunnyhop really be a problem?) Can they be lumped in a group with all other bunnyhoppers, only different from non-bunnyhoppers? No, because there's a big difference between someone who can bunnyhop and someone who's really good at it, which brings me to my point.
You said "The best kind of 'skills' in gaming can always be improved". I agree, I think that's one of the most important concepts a developer needs to remember. Games like Starcraft have been successful for so long because players are always getting better, there's a high skill ceiling. Bunnyhopping and air control is one of those skills that create a high skill ceiling(Note:High skill ceiling doesn't mean high learning curve. Low learning curve, high skill ceiling, or "easy to learn, hard to master" should be the goal).
The reason bunnyhopping is one of these skills is that it's hard to get the perfect balance of strafing and turning to get to the max speed in 3 jumps(I can't do it), and that isn't the same in every situation(narrow hallways for example). There's also the problem of trying to move erratically while doing it so you can dodge fire, picking the best path, starting by jumping out of a vent or off a wall, etc.
I liked juice's use of the word "finesse" to describe bunnyhopping. It's a complex skill that's hard to develop, but it really isn't that hard to learn the concept and start doing it, if badly.
<!--quoteo(post=1684624:date=Jul 27 2008, 11:08 PM:name=PseudoKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PseudoKnight @ Jul 27 2008, 11:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even if you forget graphical realism, forget that it's an oversight in the movement code, forget that it's undocumented<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not forgetting any of those. It is, as Soylent_green so elegantly communicated, an intended feature. And even if it weren't, as Juice said, it doesn't matter, because all that matters is whether or not we should keep it - that is, if it's a valuable gameplay mechanic or not.
And as Underwhelmed said, there should be documentation - that's true.
As far as graphical realism goes- I'm with you in that, but you have to think about NS in terms of it being a sci-fi horror game, not a "realism simulator". Aliens that spawn and evolve from bacteria in short bursts are not part of reality either, but you suspend the fact that a skulk morphs into and out of an egg, and into a creature that should take hundreds of pounds of food simply to account for its mass, because the game needs a 2 ton elephant that can eat marines in order to be fun.
You're confusing "intuitive" with "easy". Anyone - as you pointed out - can bunnyhop with relative ease once they understand the mechanics - the beauty of the feature is that you can learn the basics and spend years doing it, playing ze_marinebhop, and still not master it completely. That's depth you can't buy- and depth is a key gameplay element.
Moreover it doesn't even need to happen. If you understand the basics of airspeed control, you can still <!--coloro:blue--><span style="color:blue"><!--/coloro-->ambush<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, you can still think in terms of the team, you can still <!--coloro:blue--><span style="color:blue"><!--/coloro-->gorge<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, you can still <!--coloro:blue--><span style="color:blue"><!--/coloro-->lerk<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, you can still <!--coloro:blue--><span style="color:blue"><!--/coloro-->bite resource towers<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, you can still <!--coloro:blue--><span style="color:blue"><!--/coloro-->parasite<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, you can still <b>play to the success of your team</b>. What the arguments that oppose bhop are asking for is not <i>a way to make the game intuitive</i> - because if you added Underwhelmed's suggestions for explaining the system ingame, it would be as intuitive as it needs to be. <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->Take pitching, does it make sense to have to spin the ball to make it go straight and then hook at the end?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> I don't think so, but baseball is still a great game. I don't think throwing curveballs should be removed or banned simply because I can't do it without spending hours to learn and master the technique, and then spending yet more time learning to use it sparingly when the situation, and the tactics of the environment calls for it.
What the arguments that oppose bhop are asking for is not <i>a way to make the game intuitive</i>. No, because if that were the case, the arguments would be stated in such a way as to preserve the depth of the game, rather than to nullify it in favor of perfectly optimized inutition for all new players.
Why would arguments persist for the intuitive capacity of one of the deepest, most enjoyable, and yet and least unbalancing elements of the game?
What the real arguments that oppose bhop - the ones that you hear over and over - are actually asking for is a way to let undedicated players play the twitch-game at the same level as experts. The reasoning attached, I would argue, is nothing more than a series of good-sounding, but poorly-motivated excuses to make the game less troublesome to <b>master</b>. They are arguments of frustration, they are arguments of fear, and they are arguments of immaturity.
Please implement both bunny hop and airspeed control in full form in NS2, and even go the extra step as Juice and Underwhelmed suggested, to make it an even <i>better</i> feature than we saw in the original game. I love playing NS because it's deep, it's epic, and it's fun. Bunnyhop is all these things, and contributes a very large chunk of Natural-Selection's charm. It does not hurt the gameplay, in fact, without it, NS's gameplay would be tremendously crippled.
A great game is both easy to learn, and difficult to master. <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->New players do not need to bhop to play effectively. This is not - and has never been - an issue of new players learning the game.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> NS can be played effectively without bunny hop - especially in the earliest stages of the game, but at the most intense competitive levels, elements like airspeed control, and infact bunnyhop, allow players to put forth great effort for that last "edge" on the other team, and to triumph based on their degree of dedication, which is fueled by a level of enjoyment that can only really exist in a game of great depth, a game that allows players to truly achieve if they work for it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Jul 23 2008, 11:10 PM) * I don't like getting involved in this, it seems like a hostile subject, where those who oppose my humble opinion have no bones on telling me just how wrong my opinion is, despite it being my opinion on what makes a game fun.
Radix: You may be mistaking hostility for frustration. When you argue based on an opinion, some people who prefer facts may have difficulty accepting what you believe as objective and correct, simply due to a lack of evidence.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1684739:date=Jul 29 2008, 03:05 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Jul 29 2008, 03:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684739"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What the real arguments that oppose bhop - the ones that you hear over and over - are actually asking for is a way to let undedicated players play the twitch-game at the same level as experts. The reasoning attached, I would argue, is nothing more than a series of good-sounding, but poorly-motivated excuses to make the game less troublesome to <b>master</b>. <i>They are arguments of frustration, they are arguments of fear, and they are arguments of immaturity.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, what were you saying about this subject not coming off as hostile? My opinion that playing with bhop is not fun is because of frustration, fear, and immaturity?
I respectfully disagree. I get the sense that there are players highly invested in bhop and those who are not, so this subject is coming off like Mac vs PC or something else as divisive. Both sides have their pro points, yet things seem to come down to hurling insults. *shrug*
So what else can I say other than from my own experience doing bhop, I find it does not add any fun to the NS1 game or any other that has included a similar mechanic. [edit]Does that opinion[/edit] really deserve to be called immature for that? That it lacks evidence despite numerous player sharing any experience otherwise?
Ok ok, I can see why people wanna keep bhopping, as it is a deep gameplay element that can offer years of practise and mastery. This sorta ###### is what gives games replayability. My problem is that this gameplay element has NO place in an FPS.
Take an FPS player, let's say... me. I've played dozens of FPS's for the PC in my time, I'm generally an above average player when I start an FPS, and when I stick with an FPS I can generally reach competitive level sooner than later. You take me, put me in the driver seat of a skulk, and the first thing I do is put myself in the mind of a beast that has no guns, and must use high agility, speed, and abilities provided by a unique body structure (parasiting, wallwalking, xenociding, leaping, and of course biting). I try to think like an alien, to work like an alien would, sneak and bite heels and jump on heads and run across rooms like a darting death machine and leap across chasms like an alien from Aliens.
The LAST thing that would EVER enter my mind is that if I wiggle my mouse around left and right and press right/left and jump at key points in the jump action, I can increase my movement speed. It's like... wtf is wrong with you? How the ###### does that work? That doesn't even BEGIN to make sense gameplay wise. Weird movement control like NS Bhopping doesn't -link the mind with the body- and belongs in completely different types of games where there is no mind/body connection, maybe some ###### like TETRIS or something. The movement you're doing has to work with the thing you're using, it has to make sense and jive and flow, this is KEY to any game with a strong focus on movement, ie: fast FPS's.
Now, a lot of FPS's do strange things and still make it jive and flow. Dodging and double-jumping in UT, all direction BHopping in Painkiller, etc, etc, these can work... but wiggling your mouse left/right and jumping right/left to move forward faster is just far too obscure and foreign.
If they can make BHopping jive and flow and still keep its depth, I'm all for that, but if you can't, get rid of it.
<!--quoteo(post=1684785:date=Jul 30 2008, 11:25 AM:name=NovusAnimus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NovusAnimus @ Jul 30 2008, 11:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684785"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok ok, I can see why people wanna keep bhopping, as it is a deep gameplay element that can offer years of practise and mastery. This sorta ###### is what gives games replayability. My problem is that this gameplay element has NO place in an FPS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The whole idea is that its unique. If I had 4 team based shooters with such mobility, I wouldn't be defending bhop here. Too bad that most games nowadays are either pure deathmatch or semi-realistic fps games involving recoil, movement limitations and 5 minute rounds. They've got merits too and require all in all a lot of skill and smart thinking to play, but I think there are enough of them already.
Unique is good, so unique that it doesn't make gameplay sense to any being who lives in a 3D world (humans) is not good.
When I say gameplay, I don't mean gameplay balance or anything, I mean the above mentioned -link between mind and body-. I'll just call it the MAB link from now on.
Ie: - Shooting a rocket at the floor so that its force pushes you up, and does you damage. That makes some sense and preserves the link of MAB. - Constantly jumping in a direction, FACING that direction, and ensuring you spend as little time as possible on the ground to minimize friction. This makes some sense and preserves most of the MAB link. - Double tapping a direction to force you person to make a small leap in that direction. This makes good sense and preserves the MAB link. - Jumping a second time in the air while at maximum jump height to perform a second jump. This is pushing it, but the idea has been around in our culture long enough that it doesn't go too far and break the MAB link. - Crouch jumping to reach normally unreachable heights. Makes almost perfect sense, MAB link preserved. - Aiming mouse left and jumping right, then aiming mouse right and jumping left to increase movement speed of moving forward, WARNING: MAB LINK LOST.
People live inside a 3D world, and a game that puts itself in a 3D world has to at least make a LITTLE bit of sense when it comes to movement. Next some idiot will allow people to skip across water like skipping rocks, and people who get really good at it will think it's an awesome gameplay tactic and should be kept around, make no nevermind that it's absolutely ridiculous and completely breaks immersion.
Being able to change your rate of rotation in the air, being able to change the trajectory of your center of mass motion while in the air, being able to leap or blink without being on the ground, not transfering momentum to someone while colliding with them at great speed, having conveyors behave as though there is a special 'stationary' frame of reference, running faster by pressing yourself into a wall, running faster by alternating strafe right and strafe left, picking up more speed by doing a little piruet, being able to communicate via text messages with an alien species while still pretending to not understand each other, whirling your claws around to gain energy and health, being healed due to proximity to a hive or defense chamber by no visible means, being able to turn aim and shoot freely while climbing a ladder, marines invading a ship at the exact time aliens have built their first hive, marines and aliens each maintaining a consistent and limited number of individuals alive at the same time with the maximum varying due to a factor completely outside the context of the game(people joining and leaving); these are all things which make no bloody sense to anyone who hasn't played first person shooters in general and NS in particular.
Yet they make intuitive and immediate sense to players who have been around for a long time because intuition in something created by experience, not the other way around.
As for mind and body link, I have no idea what you mean or why you want one.
Well, for those in the above list that have to deal with momentum and movement, I think there are a few that should be changed:
I personally think you shouldn't be able to leap while in the air, I know diagonal movement will not be faster in a new engine, and some other things. But we're talking about BHopping here, NS BHopping specifically.
The MAB link is the idea that a person truly enjoys a game when they stop thinking about the game as just buttons and colors, but as an extension of a limb. Ask anyone who plays a fight-sim competitively, they'll tell you they're not controlling a list of moves by button presses; their thumbs ARE the characters on screen. In an FPS, the things that break the MAB link are the things that COMPLETELY break away from anything that makes sense in a 3D world, NS bhopping does that.
Also, I'm posting a lot cause I'm at work bored stiff.
Edit: I'm guessing, Soylent, by your addition of random ###### like healing hives and stuff in your list that I wasn't clear enough with my reference of a 3D world. I say 3D cause I'm talking about dimensional movement, up/down left/right back/forward. Knowing that I'm talking to aliens when I'm a marine has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about. I'm not talking about roleplaying, what I'm talking about is purely the game mechanics behind interacting/using momentum, and how important that is to keep a person in the right mindset, the 'zone', if you will.
It would be cool if pouncing/blinking into a marine caused them to bounce back, but as the mod The Hidden for HL2 showed, server side physics is a deadly gamble, fun but glitches and server issues and slowdown abundant.
He was just trying to put into words why unique doesn't necessarily mean it flows naturally from a gamers finger tips.
You know where the infinity loop wiggle and use of strafing would make sense to me for forward movement? Not speed necessarily, but ducking and weaving, which I think I have seen most practically used in real world application with <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capoeira" target="_blank">Capoeira</a>, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing" target="_blank">Boxing</a>, and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drunken_boxing" target="_blank">Zui Quan (Wushu) aka Drunken Boxing</a>.
When I do it as a skulk though, I think of it like skate boarding a half pipe. Only there is no half pipe ... or skateboard ... and my appendages are really pogo sticks in disguise...
As described to me by the other players who taught it to me, the biggest hurdle to get over is to not touch your forward keys to go forward, but go sideways... Personally, when I was learning it, I felt like I was gimping my hands up with all the repetitive motion. I totally get what he is saying when it tries to describe it, it really does lack flow.
Does anyone remember those Penny Arcade comics where it was like a spoof on that Stalingrad movie , where instead of snipers, it was bunny hopper vs bunny hopper?
Anyways, I guess there are things I would suggest the movement acquire if it must be kept: - uses energy on a jump (has an upper limit) - uses forward, backward, and strafe - animations that "tilt" things so it represent agility and flow
That would satisfy the things that bug me about seeing it, doing it, and its impact on the game. But then, its not really bunny hop anymore, is it? Good.
<!--quoteo(post=1684796:date=Jul 30 2008, 09:17 AM:name=NovusAnimus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NovusAnimus @ Jul 30 2008, 09:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The MAB link is the idea that a person truly enjoys a game when they stop thinking about the game as just buttons and colors, but as an extension of a limb.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No game, no musical instrument, no tool, no vehicle ever feels like that when you first pick it up; not even your own body(see babies).
"Mind and body link" is just a function of practicing until you can do it in your sleep. I don't think "strafe right + turn right, jump, strafe left + turn left, jump..." when I bunnyhop; I don't think at all, I just do it.
You don't even have to look at your keyboard, you barely even realise that you're typing text, you just do it: but watch someone learning to type on a keyboard for the first time and consider that at one point in time you were them.
I understand that you can make it like second nature Soylent, you can do that with anything. The idea is that the immersion is lost. You don't feel like a skulk when you bhop, you feel like you're controlling, as Wolverine said, a creature skateboarding on a pipe, minus the board or pipe and instead you have pogo sticks for legs.
<!--quoteo(post=1684796:date=Jul 30 2008, 09:17 AM:name=NovusAnimus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NovusAnimus @ Jul 30 2008, 09:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I personally think you shouldn't be able to leap while in the air<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As a <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" /> ? Why not? With the amount of energy leap takes I don't see why you think that would be a problem.
<!--quoteo(post=1684796:date=Jul 30 2008, 09:17 AM:name=NovusAnimus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NovusAnimus @ Jul 30 2008, 09:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It would be cool if pouncing/blinking into a marine caused them to bounce back, but as the mod The Hidden for HL2 showed, server side physics is a deadly gamble, fun but glitches and server issues and slowdown abundant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its annoying enough when they bounce back from fade swipes i.e. when a marine is on a ledge and falls of causing you to have to chase after him. Imagine as the marine is unloading on you while your leaping towards him, then as you go to bite him you get him once, he bounces back, then finishes you off because you aren't able to close the gap fast enough to get a second bite in. Personally I think that Idea sounds dumb. Leap and Blink are fine the way they are and don't need anything else.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Soylent_green)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Soylent_green)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Mind and body link" is just a function of practicing until you can do it in your sleep. I don't think "strafe right + turn right, jump, strafe left + turn left, jump..." when I bunnyhop; I don't think at all, I just do it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These are exactly my sentiments.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=NovusAnimus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NovusAnimus)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I understand that you can make it like second nature Soylent, you can do that with anything. The idea is that the immersion is lost. You don't feel like a skulk when you bhop, you feel like you're controlling, as Wolverine said, a creature skateboarding on a pipe, minus the board or pipe and instead you have pogo sticks for legs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree with this statement. In fact regular alien movent as a skulk just feels clunky and slow to me. The amount of distance you can cover with celerity/bhopping feels far greater than what you can cover while just walking on the ground.
... did you even read anything I posted? You're talking about balance, I was talking purely about gameplay immersion.
Leaping while in the air doesn't make any sense cause you need your god damn feet on the ground to leap when all you have for traveling be 4 spike feet. Whether it's a balanced gameplay tactic or not is irrelevant.
Hitting marines with blink/leap so they are knocked back would just add an interesting effect to the gameplay, as well as increase immersion. The Hidden stabs people just fine after leaping into them so they're knocked back, I wouldn't worry about it. Though, again, I was just talking about the immersion factor, not balance.
And of course celerity/bhopping makes you feel like you're covering more distance, cause you ARE. This doesn't change the fact that the idea of being a small little speedy skulk alien, and the idea of NS bhopping, are completely unrelated and you lose immersion when you try and bhop around. Really, if someone just takes a ######ing SECOND and looks at the control scheme to properly NS BHop, they'd realize how similar to playing a skate boarding game it is. I can't believe you guys are trying to argue looking left/jumping right then looking right/jumping left someone fits the bill of a skulk. Don't be absurd. Look at the list of "MAB link ok" movements I made above, look for a pattern, christ.
Comments
You're attacking the intuitive merits of bunny hop on the grounds that pressing 2+attack or 3+attack to go forward makes sense?
imho, bunny hopping does not offer this.
Apart from this theres the fact that it makes the game less realistic, and realism does matter to an extent. If it is completely ignored a game can lose its sense of immersion. Now if you take the new Day of Defeat update as an example, with its stupid kill-cam and silly tf2 types achievements and dominating stuff, the sense that you are fighting in world war 2 begins to fade. The experience of being a soldier in bitter suburban fighting is overshadowed by the cartooney sounds and "zaney" killcam. To me this is an example of a game ruined by a lack of regard or respect for realism. I accept that some people just play for frags, but for me if i cant take the game seriously, i dont have as much fun.
Well anyway, my point is that the deletion of bhop does not have to mean less skill, just skill that is executed in a more intelligent and hopefully realistic way.
imho, bunny hopping does not offer this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd like to remind everyone again that bunny hopping isn't a feature based on skill but an engine bug.
Further, why should bunny hopping be replaced by anything if its removed? Playing as a marine means you need to have a decent amount of aim and the ability to coordinate with your team, know eachothers weaknesses, and be able to exploit the weaknesses in an alien lifeform that comes your way. For example, when fighting an Onos or Fade of any skill level, 'dodging' (crouch and move in a direction over and over again) can help you avoid getting slashed by a Fade or eaten by an Onos. The Aliens however are more tuned to stealth, hit and run tactics, the ability to run fast and/or silent and also able use team coordination and misdirection to achieve their objectives. There is a level of skill needed to play effectively on either team. While the focus of marines is technology/firepower/aiming, the focus for aliens is speed/stealth save for the onos who's main use is meatshield/hard hitter.
Sure bunny hopping requires some skill, but exploiting any engine flaw in any game usually requires some sort of skill or simple practice. The real skill involves aiming, the ability to modify ones strategy given certain situational changes, knowing ones limits and properly exploiting other peoples weaknesses to your advantage. These skills have been the core of practically every FPS created and I believe creating a method for marines to move faster on their feet is neccesary however bunny hopping isn't the solution at all. The fact that skulks can bunny hop is believable. I know that some have shot down the argument that bunny hopping shouldn't be included in NS2 because its not believable for a marine to bunny hop because realism isn't as important as game play, but if your gameplay involves something that is out of the bounds of your game then you really haven't added anything to it. I'll clarify by example.
Unreal Tournament gives players the ability to double jump, that is, to jump again in the air at the height of your first jump. This adds to the game play because Unreal Tournament is set in a semi-over-the-top futuristic environment that's meant to be fast paced, full of action and an enemy can come at you from any direction and from anywhere. Skill involved in this game are the ability to use each different weapon effectively given the situation, the ability to double jump and multi-jump to avoid damage or to get to special locations in a level to receive a power up and general knowledge of each map.
While Natural Selection is set in a futuristic world with jet packs and such, adding a feature like double jumping and mid-air dodging off of air, although it may be fun, it would not add to the game play. In fact, it may even take away from it. You simply don't want to see a marine double jumping over an onos, although I admit it may be cool to watch, it would destroy the game play value and turn Natural Selection into a jumping spam fest with a 'The Matrix' feel to it. This is not in the spirit of Natural Selection, imho. Bunny hopping is much like this. It might be fun to be bunny hopping around a level and might even be great for the gaming experience for those that do it but it takes away from the general feel of the entire game as well as the experience for others.
Thank you, Zek, for the most intelligent post in the topic.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're attacking the intuitive merits of bunny hop on the grounds that pressing 2+attack or 3+attack to go forward makes sense?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. The game tells you that Blink is a movement skill. Leap is a movement skill. They make your character move faster, etc. Nowhere does the game tell you or hint that you should be capable of moving twice as fast as normal by jumping from side to side while wiggling your mouse in a certain fashion - and you aren't even supposed to push your W key to move forward??? You're fooling yourself if you think that bhopping is even close to as intuitive as blink, leap, lerk flight.
I agree that improvements to wallwalking and/or an improved implementation of walljumping would be a reasonable way to go here in the absence of bhopping.
I can't really disagree, but the real trick is finding something equally enjoyable. Wallwalking is something, but I feel its still relatively limited when it comes to dodging and unpredictable movement. Wall pounces are already in the game and they add new possibilities, but still nothing compared to the present system. In addition, limiting jumping capabilities easily limits also the ability to chain different forms of movement.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Dalin Seivewright)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dalin Seivewright)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Further, why should bunny hopping be replaced by anything if its removed?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a bit same as removing sg and gl from the game and not replacing it with anything. It's dumbing down the game and reducing the challenge both on the fps skills and tactical side.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For example, when fighting an Onos or Fade of any skill level, 'dodging' (crouch and move in a direction over and over again) can help you avoid getting slashed by a Fade or eaten by an Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The whole point is that the bhop and air control add new options. I wouldn't have played ns for this many years if the dodging was always repeanting the same move.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Aliens however are more tuned to stealth, hit and run tactics, the ability to run fast and/or silent and also able use team coordination and misdirection to achieve their objectives. There is a level of skill needed to play effectively on either team. While the focus of marines is technology/firepower/aiming, the focus for aliens is speed/stealth save for the onos who's main use is meatshield/hard hitter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Says who? Skulk is a stealth/pack lifeform anyway, the present movement system just gives you more ways to act when you decide to make the move.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The real skill involves aiming, the ability to modify ones strategy given certain situational changes, knowing ones limits and properly exploiting other peoples weaknesses to your advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's exactly why bhop is such a great thingy. You've got a given situation, you decide to do something with the movement options you got, knowing your limits with the movement skill. Some of the decisions are to try to dodge by an unpredictable movement, or take advantage of the enemy positioning and given situation. All in all it gets very interesting, because you've got some many options.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While Natural Selection is set in a futuristic world with jet packs and such, adding a feature like double jumping and mid-air dodging off of air, although it may be fun, it would not add to the game play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Either you aren't really aware of the movement possibilities or you're trolling. Neither is good for your credibility.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It might be fun to be bunny hopping around a level and might even be great for the gaming experience for those that do it but it takes away from the general feel of the entire game as well as the experience for others.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the problem. So far I've been trying to find ways to remove the negative effects and make it more approachable, but it doesn't seem to be getting much support.
<!--quoteo(post=1684259:date=Jul 23 2008, 12:35 AM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Jul 23 2008, 12:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684259"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->Making engine decisions based on realism is like making cooking decisions based on how pretty the ingredients are.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
========================
<!--quoteo(post=1684570:date=Jul 27 2008, 05:05 AM:name=Dalin Seivewright)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dalin Seivewright @ Jul 27 2008, 05:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684570"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->engine bug<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1684306:date=Jul 23 2008, 04:40 PM:name=juice)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(juice @ Jul 23 2008, 04:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684306"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->they're making their own engine. therefore it would not be a flaw it would be part of the game. the only question is whether it should be included as a feature.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
==========================
<!--quoteo(post=1684590:date=Jul 27 2008, 11:55 AM:name=frostymoose)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(frostymoose @ Jul 27 2008, 11:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684590"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->The game tells you that Blink is a movement skill.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1684402:date=Jul 24 2008, 08:20 PM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Underwhelmed @ Jul 24 2008, 08:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684402"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->Keep bhop in along with air control. Make holding down spacebar = jump on contact with ground, and add some documentation on how to bhop.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1684590:date=Jul 27 2008, 11:55 AM:name=frostymoose)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(frostymoose @ Jul 27 2008, 11:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684590"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... improvements to wallwalking and/or an improved implementation of walljumping<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please propose an actual system so that we can discuss its practical merits. "Improvements" doesn't mean anything to me besides "let's get rid of bhop and turn NS2 into TF2."
I would like to see a trade-off of more intuitive skill elements placed in the game in place of bunny-hopping. Or at the very least a full adoption of bunny-hopping that provides documentation and perhaps some simple automation to make the more unreliable aspects easier to predict.
I'm confused. So your saying that removing a contrived and frankly rather silly looking method of movement like bhop would make the game <i>more</i> like TF2? If anything bhop is the only part of NS1 that i think i CAN compare with the whacky, 100mph player movement in tf2. On the contrary i think the removal of bhop would make the game feel more polished and sophisticated. Just my opinion anyway.
And in response to your demand for a proposal for a replacement 'skill'... well i actually said it before: Types of alien skill that require skill and intelligence to use properly, that have a challenging yet not obscure learning curve.
And before you ask me what these skills are, well all i can say is i am not a game designer. suggestions for specific alien skills are difficult to offer if we do not yet know what the life forms will look like or how they will function. Furthermore such a suggestion would belong in a separate thread.
Oh yeah, and i do not dismiss the point that bhop NEEDS to be replaced. Perhaps without it people would use there heads more instead of charging in bhopping singing "cant touch this" in front of their pcs. The best kind of 'skills' in gaming can always be improved - In my experience bunny hopping is just divided into those that CAN and those that CAN'T, or even worse those THAT DONT EVEN KNOW what is.
My 2 cents.
NS (Alien movement, required Marine reactions) is faster by a long way. TFC was faster than TF2 as well. Honestly TF2 feels slow in comparison. Of course there are slower-paced games such as Counter-Strike, Call of Duty, Battlefield - but these are <i>realism</i> games. From the zero-recoil to the unrealistic friendly fire damage, NS is clearly more of an arena-style deatchmatch game than a realism sim (the beauty is that it combines relatively higher-level strategy with deathmatch gameplay at the average player level).
---
I really don't think it would be that hard to hardcode in a simplified bunnyhop system that maintains the tactical options of the current system but does away with its contrived and unintuitive controls. All the best games on this Earth are those that have very simple rules but near-infinite possibilities. Chess is a prime example. Chess is not complicated to play, the barrier-to-entry is no more than a 30 minute explanation to the average initiate. <i>Mastering</i> chess is another matter, and that's why it's regarded as such a great game. For me the optimum result is to have a bhop system that is simple to understand and easy to perform, but which has a dramatic positive effect on the amount of options available to the player at any given time.
This is one of the big problems. Quite few people unable to bhop actually realize how many differences, states on learning and such there are. It's a whole different thing to reach mediocore 450 unit speed at ns_bhop and to gain high speeds with 2-3 hops under fire, hop up a set of stairs or to turn your forward movement into a flawless wall hop when you suddenly see a marine. On public games you'll most likely end direct dives because the skill differences are quite massive and most players don't even bother to be stealthy or dodge and also because nobody parasites and most often all you've got left is the direct charge when you find marines in the middle of the corridor at those speeds.
For years spectating Ed|Rush made me go 'wft, how did he do that'. That's simply because he was so damn good on controlling almost every movement aspect of the game.
Yes, that is a way to make it simple. <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->But it takes away everything interesting about bhop.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The <!--coloro:dodgerblue--><span style="color:dodgerblue"><!--/coloro-->dynamic<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> interaction between directionality and airspeed control while bunnyhopping is what makes it <!--coloro:dodgerblue--><span style="color:dodgerblue"><!--/coloro-->aesthetically appealing<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. It involves a <!--coloro:dodgerblue--><span style="color:dodgerblue"><!--/coloro-->finesse<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> of mouse control. I have also noticed that this often leads to a viewfield gesturing which approximates an <!--coloro:dodgerblue--><span style="color:dodgerblue"><!--/coloro-->infinity<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> symbol. The <!--coloro:dodgerblue--><span style="color:dodgerblue"><!--/coloro-->adaptation<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> of this motion to combat situations then becomes a <!--coloro:dodgerblue--><span style="color:dodgerblue"><!--/coloro-->creative experience<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, deepening gameplay.
In fact, there will probably be a game in the future which utilizes advanced patterning of mouse motion which overlays additional movement on top of the base movement and forms the basis for the game's fundamental skill set. NS unleashed the potential of bhop with the speed and maneuverability of the skulk, a melee class which must by its nature focus on its motion rather than its aim. But it is just the beginning. <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->Why take a step backward when we can take a step forward?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
no, it doesn't.
bunnyhopping skulks are the <b>easiest</b> targets to shoot in the game.
I'm not familiar with the actual air curve mechanics of the painkiller, but if it allows the smooth air control (eg pulling off spirals and such midair) it might be a good alternative. I'm still a little worried how it can be balanced on lower skill levels, since people can easily bhop, but can't hit the hopping aliens that easily.
You will find the code that enables bunnyhopping, wall-straffing and all of that stuff in the shared client-server physics code of the mod. If you're basing your code on the HLDM example mod from Valve you're going to inherit the physics used for that mod unless you bother to go in there and change it. The NS devs have obviously mucked around a lot in there or you wouldn't have things like jetpacks, leap, lerk flight, wallwalking, different movement sounds for different player classes and surfaces and so forth.
The devs even made bunnyhopping more powerful by changing PM_PreventMegaBunnyJumping to be more lenient.
Here's the relevant code from pm_shared.c from the HLDM example in the mod SDK(obviously the NS devs have reworked it for lerks, changed PM_PreventMegaBunnyJumping to be less punishing, done various changes to prevent marines bunnyhopping etc.):
PM_PreventMegaBunnyJumping is called from the PM_Jump code which is called from PM_PlayerMove that serves as an entry point for all player movement and sorts out which kind of movement should be attempted based on player type, player state, key state etc.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->// Only allow bunny jumping up to 1.7x server / player maxspeed setting
#define BUNNYJUMP_MAX_SPEED_FACTOR 1.7f
//-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
// Purpose: Corrects bunny jumping ( where player initiates a bunny jump before other
// movement logic runs, thus making onground == -1 thus making PM_Friction get skipped and
// running PM_AirMove, which doesn't crop velocity to maxspeed like the ground / other
// movement logic does.
//-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
void PM_PreventMegaBunnyJumping( void )
{
// Current player speed
float spd;
// If we have to crop, apply this cropping fraction to velocity
float fraction;
// Speed at which bunny jumping is limited
float maxscaledspeed;
maxscaledspeed = BUNNYJUMP_MAX_SPEED_FACTOR * pmove->maxspeed;
// Don't divide by zero
if ( maxscaledspeed <= 0.0f )
return;
spd = Length( pmove->velocity );
if ( spd <= maxscaledspeed )
return;
fraction = ( maxscaledspeed / spd ) * 0.65; //Returns the modifier for the velocity
VectorScale( pmove->velocity, fraction, pmove->velocity ); //Crop it down!.
}<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
AirMove is called from PM_PlayerMove for players who are in the air and not spectators.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->/*
===================
PM_AirMove
===================
*/
void PM_AirMove (void)
{
int i;
vec3_t wishvel;
float fmove, smove;
vec3_t wishdir;
float wishspeed;
// Copy movement amounts
fmove = pmove->cmd.forwardmove;
smove = pmove->cmd.sidemove;
// Zero out z components of movement vectors
pmove->forward[2] = 0;
pmove->right[2] = 0;
// Renormalize
VectorNormalize (pmove->forward);
VectorNormalize (pmove->right);
// Determine x and y parts of velocity
for (i=0; i<2; i++)
{
wishvel[i] = pmove->forward[i]*fmove + pmove->right[i]*smove;
}
// Zero out z part of velocity
wishvel[2] = 0;
// Determine maginitude of speed of move
VectorCopy (wishvel, wishdir);
wishspeed = VectorNormalize(wishdir);
// Clamp to server defined max speed
if (wishspeed > pmove->maxspeed)
{
VectorScale (wishvel, pmove->maxspeed/wishspeed, wishvel);
wishspeed = pmove->maxspeed;
}
PM_AirAccelerate (wishdir, wishspeed, pmove->movevars->airaccelerate);
// Add in any base velocity to the current velocity.
VectorAdd (pmove->velocity, pmove->basevelocity, pmove->velocity );
PM_FlyMove ();
}
void PM_AirAccelerate (vec3_t wishdir, float wishspeed, float accel)
{
int i;
float addspeed, accelspeed, currentspeed, wishspd = wishspeed;
if (pmove->dead)
return;
if (pmove->waterjumptime)
return;
// Cap speed
//wishspd = VectorNormalize (pmove->wishveloc);
if (wishspd > 30)
wishspd = 30;
// Determine veer amount
currentspeed = DotProduct (pmove->velocity, wishdir);
// See how much to add
addspeed = wishspd - currentspeed;
// If not adding any, done.
if (addspeed <= 0)
return;
// Determine acceleration speed after acceleration
accelspeed = accel * wishspeed * pmove->frametime * pmove->friction;
// Cap it
if (accelspeed > addspeed)
accelspeed = addspeed;
// Adjust pmove vel.
for (i=0; i<3; i++)
{
pmove->velocity[i] += accelspeed*wishdir[i];
}
}<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
PM_FlyMove is not very relevant to the mechanics of bunnyhopping, it just moves you in a straight line unless it hits something in which case it will clip your velocity and slide you against the hit planes etc.
pmove is a global of type playermove_s, which is too huge to post in full here but contains various player state variables.
pmove->cmd is a usercmd_t:
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->typedef struct usercmd_s
{
short lerp_msec; // Interpolation time on client
byte msec; // Duration in ms of command
vec3_t viewangles; // Command view angles.
// intended velocities
float forwardmove; // Forward velocity.
float sidemove; // Sideways velocity.
float upmove; // Upward velocity.
byte lightlevel; // Light level at spot where we are standing.
unsigned short buttons; // Attack buttons
byte impulse; // Impulse command issued.
byte weaponselect; // Current weapon id
// Experimental player impact stuff.
int impact_index;
vec3_t impact_position;
} usercmd_t;<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
pmove->forward and pmove->right are vectors described as "// Vectors for angles"; point to the player's forward direction and right direction.
I believe the rest of the code above is quite self-explanatory and that anyone who can read C code and understands what happens when you apply the euler method for numerical solving of differential equations on a particle who's acceleration is roughly perpendicular to it's velocity with a large time-step can see why the above leads to bunnyhopping.
<!--quoteo(post=1684698:date=Jul 29 2008, 12:50 AM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Jul 29 2008, 12:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684698"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no, it doesn't.
bunnyhopping skulks are the <b>easiest</b> targets to shoot in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed. Straight bunnyhopping without any frills(leaping, using diagonals instead of left or right to bunnyhop at a different angle, occassionaly turning twice in one jump...), you're going to be able to predict exactly where that skulk is going which makes aiming so much easier.
NS is NS because movement <b>isn't</b> secondary to aiming.
This is almost opposite of what is actually true.
You can't really put a line dividing "people who can bunnyhop" and "can't bunnyhop" because it isn't that simple if you think about what bunnyhopping really is--controlled air control. Air control isn't a foreign concept to most NS players, I'd say most players who are somewhat decent use some sort of jumping, and they(key part here) <b>strafe while jumping</b>, letting them change their direction. Those players are using a part of bunnyhopping even if they don't realize it.
So, lets say someone learns to fully bunnyhop.(which I agree is a problem, there should be more information available. If NS2 had tutorials, including a bunnyhopp tutorial, would learning to bunnyhop really be a problem?) Can they be lumped in a group with all other bunnyhoppers, only different from non-bunnyhoppers? No, because there's a big difference between someone who can bunnyhop and someone who's really good at it, which brings me to my point.
You said "The best kind of 'skills' in gaming can always be improved". I agree, I think that's one of the most important concepts a developer needs to remember. Games like Starcraft have been successful for so long because players are always getting better, there's a high skill ceiling. Bunnyhopping and air control is one of those skills that create a high skill ceiling(Note:High skill ceiling doesn't mean high learning curve. Low learning curve, high skill ceiling, or "easy to learn, hard to master" should be the goal).
The reason bunnyhopping is one of these skills is that it's hard to get the perfect balance of strafing and turning to get to the max speed in 3 jumps(I can't do it), and that isn't the same in every situation(narrow hallways for example). There's also the problem of trying to move erratically while doing it so you can dodge fire, picking the best path, starting by jumping out of a vent or off a wall, etc.
I liked juice's use of the word "finesse" to describe bunnyhopping. It's a complex skill that's hard to develop, but it really isn't that hard to learn the concept and start doing it, if badly.
I'm not forgetting any of those. It is, as Soylent_green so elegantly communicated, an intended feature. And even if it weren't, as Juice said, it doesn't matter, because all that matters is whether or not we should keep it - that is, if it's a valuable gameplay mechanic or not.
And as Underwhelmed said, there should be documentation - that's true.
As far as graphical realism goes- I'm with you in that, but you have to think about NS in terms of it being a sci-fi horror game, not a "realism simulator". Aliens that spawn and evolve from bacteria in short bursts are not part of reality either, but you suspend the fact that a skulk morphs into and out of an egg, and into a creature that should take hundreds of pounds of food simply to account for its mass, because the game needs a 2 ton elephant that can eat marines in order to be fun.
<!--quoteo(post=1684624:date=Jul 27 2008, 11:08 PM:name=PseudoKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PseudoKnight @ Jul 27 2008, 11:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->...unintuitive...doesn't improve the gameplay<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're confusing "intuitive" with "easy". Anyone - as you pointed out - can bunnyhop with relative ease once they understand the mechanics - the beauty of the feature is that you can learn the basics and spend years doing it, playing ze_marinebhop, and still not master it completely. That's depth you can't buy- and depth is a key gameplay element.
Moreover it doesn't even need to happen. If you understand the basics of airspeed control, you can still <!--coloro:blue--><span style="color:blue"><!--/coloro-->ambush<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, you can still think in terms of the team, you can still <!--coloro:blue--><span style="color:blue"><!--/coloro-->gorge<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, you can still <!--coloro:blue--><span style="color:blue"><!--/coloro-->lerk<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, you can still <!--coloro:blue--><span style="color:blue"><!--/coloro-->bite resource towers<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, you can still <!--coloro:blue--><span style="color:blue"><!--/coloro-->parasite<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, you can still <b>play to the success of your team</b>. What the arguments that oppose bhop are asking for is not <i>a way to make the game intuitive</i> - because if you added Underwhelmed's suggestions for explaining the system ingame, it would be as intuitive as it needs to be. <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->Take pitching, does it make sense to have to spin the ball to make it go straight and then hook at the end?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> I don't think so, but baseball is still a great game. I don't think throwing curveballs should be removed or banned simply because I can't do it without spending hours to learn and master the technique, and then spending yet more time learning to use it sparingly when the situation, and the tactics of the environment calls for it.
What the arguments that oppose bhop are asking for is not <i>a way to make the game intuitive</i>. No, because if that were the case, the arguments would be stated in such a way as to preserve the depth of the game, rather than to nullify it in favor of perfectly optimized inutition for all new players.
Why would arguments persist for the intuitive capacity of one of the deepest, most enjoyable, and yet and least unbalancing elements of the game?
What the real arguments that oppose bhop - the ones that you hear over and over - are actually asking for is a way to let undedicated players play the twitch-game at the same level as experts. The reasoning attached, I would argue, is nothing more than a series of good-sounding, but poorly-motivated excuses to make the game less troublesome to <b>master</b>. They are arguments of frustration, they are arguments of fear, and they are arguments of immaturity.
Please implement both bunny hop and airspeed control in full form in NS2, and even go the extra step as Juice and Underwhelmed suggested, to make it an even <i>better</i> feature than we saw in the original game. I love playing NS because it's deep, it's epic, and it's fun. Bunnyhop is all these things, and contributes a very large chunk of Natural-Selection's charm. It does not hurt the gameplay, in fact, without it, NS's gameplay would be tremendously crippled.
A great game is both easy to learn, and difficult to master. <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->New players do not need to bhop to play effectively. This is not - and has never been - an issue of new players learning the game.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> NS can be played effectively without bunny hop - especially in the earliest stages of the game, but at the most intense competitive levels, elements like airspeed control, and infact bunnyhop, allow players to put forth great effort for that last "edge" on the other team, and to triumph based on their degree of dedication, which is fueled by a level of enjoyment that can only really exist in a game of great depth, a game that allows players to truly achieve if they work for it.
A game such as Natural-Selection.
I don't like getting involved in this, it seems like a hostile subject, where those who oppose my humble opinion have no bones on telling me just how wrong my opinion is, despite it being my opinion on what makes a game fun.
Radix:
You may be mistaking hostility for frustration. When you argue based on an opinion, some people who prefer facts may have difficulty accepting what you believe as objective and correct, simply due to a lack of evidence.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1684739:date=Jul 29 2008, 03:05 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Jul 29 2008, 03:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684739"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What the real arguments that oppose bhop - the ones that you hear over and over - are actually asking for is a way to let undedicated players play the twitch-game at the same level as experts. The reasoning attached, I would argue, is nothing more than a series of good-sounding, but poorly-motivated excuses to make the game less troublesome to <b>master</b>. <i>They are arguments of frustration, they are arguments of fear, and they are arguments of immaturity.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, what were you saying about this subject not coming off as hostile? My opinion that playing with bhop is not fun is because of frustration, fear, and immaturity?
I respectfully disagree. I get the sense that there are players highly invested in bhop and those who are not, so this subject is coming off like Mac vs PC or something else as divisive. Both sides have their pro points, yet things seem to come down to hurling insults. *shrug*
So what else can I say other than from my own experience doing bhop, I find it does not add any fun to the NS1 game or any other that has included a similar mechanic. [edit]Does that opinion[/edit] really deserve to be called immature for that? That it lacks evidence despite numerous player sharing any experience otherwise?
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" />
Take an FPS player, let's say... me. I've played dozens of FPS's for the PC in my time, I'm generally an above average player when I start an FPS, and when I stick with an FPS I can generally reach competitive level sooner than later. You take me, put me in the driver seat of a skulk, and the first thing I do is put myself in the mind of a beast that has no guns, and must use high agility, speed, and abilities provided by a unique body structure (parasiting, wallwalking, xenociding, leaping, and of course biting). I try to think like an alien, to work like an alien would, sneak and bite heels and jump on heads and run across rooms like a darting death machine and leap across chasms like an alien from Aliens.
The LAST thing that would EVER enter my mind is that if I wiggle my mouse around left and right and press right/left and jump at key points in the jump action, I can increase my movement speed. It's like... wtf is wrong with you? How the ###### does that work? That doesn't even BEGIN to make sense gameplay wise. Weird movement control like NS Bhopping doesn't -link the mind with the body- and belongs in completely different types of games where there is no mind/body connection, maybe some ###### like TETRIS or something. The movement you're doing has to work with the thing you're using, it has to make sense and jive and flow, this is KEY to any game with a strong focus on movement, ie: fast FPS's.
Now, a lot of FPS's do strange things and still make it jive and flow. Dodging and double-jumping in UT, all direction BHopping in Painkiller, etc, etc, these can work... but wiggling your mouse left/right and jumping right/left to move forward faster is just far too obscure and foreign.
If they can make BHopping jive and flow and still keep its depth, I'm all for that, but if you can't, get rid of it.
The whole idea is that its unique. If I had 4 team based shooters with such mobility, I wouldn't be defending bhop here. Too bad that most games nowadays are either pure deathmatch or semi-realistic fps games involving recoil, movement limitations and 5 minute rounds. They've got merits too and require all in all a lot of skill and smart thinking to play, but I think there are enough of them already.
When I say gameplay, I don't mean gameplay balance or anything, I mean the above mentioned -link between mind and body-. I'll just call it the MAB link from now on.
Ie:
- Shooting a rocket at the floor so that its force pushes you up, and does you damage. That makes some sense and preserves the link of MAB.
- Constantly jumping in a direction, FACING that direction, and ensuring you spend as little time as possible on the ground to minimize friction. This makes some sense and preserves most of the MAB link.
- Double tapping a direction to force you person to make a small leap in that direction. This makes good sense and preserves the MAB link.
- Jumping a second time in the air while at maximum jump height to perform a second jump. This is pushing it, but the idea has been around in our culture long enough that it doesn't go too far and break the MAB link.
- Crouch jumping to reach normally unreachable heights. Makes almost perfect sense, MAB link preserved.
- Aiming mouse left and jumping right, then aiming mouse right and jumping left to increase movement speed of moving forward, WARNING: MAB LINK LOST.
People live inside a 3D world, and a game that puts itself in a 3D world has to at least make a LITTLE bit of sense when it comes to movement. Next some idiot will allow people to skip across water like skipping rocks, and people who get really good at it will think it's an awesome gameplay tactic and should be kept around, make no nevermind that it's absolutely ridiculous and completely breaks immersion.
Yet they make intuitive and immediate sense to players who have been around for a long time because intuition in something created by experience, not the other way around.
As for mind and body link, I have no idea what you mean or why you want one.
I personally think you shouldn't be able to leap while in the air, I know diagonal movement will not be faster in a new engine, and some other things. But we're talking about BHopping here, NS BHopping specifically.
The MAB link is the idea that a person truly enjoys a game when they stop thinking about the game as just buttons and colors, but as an extension of a limb. Ask anyone who plays a fight-sim competitively, they'll tell you they're not controlling a list of moves by button presses; their thumbs ARE the characters on screen. In an FPS, the things that break the MAB link are the things that COMPLETELY break away from anything that makes sense in a 3D world, NS bhopping does that.
Also, I'm posting a lot cause I'm at work bored stiff.
Edit: I'm guessing, Soylent, by your addition of random ###### like healing hives and stuff in your list that I wasn't clear enough with my reference of a 3D world. I say 3D cause I'm talking about dimensional movement, up/down left/right back/forward. Knowing that I'm talking to aliens when I'm a marine has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about. I'm not talking about roleplaying, what I'm talking about is purely the game mechanics behind interacting/using momentum, and how important that is to keep a person in the right mindset, the 'zone', if you will.
It would be cool if pouncing/blinking into a marine caused them to bounce back, but as the mod The Hidden for HL2 showed, server side physics is a deadly gamble, fun but glitches and server issues and slowdown abundant.
You know where the infinity loop wiggle and use of strafing would make sense to me for forward movement? Not speed necessarily, but ducking and weaving, which I think I have seen most practically used in real world application with <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capoeira" target="_blank">Capoeira</a>, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing" target="_blank">Boxing</a>, and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drunken_boxing" target="_blank">Zui Quan (Wushu) aka Drunken Boxing</a>.
When I do it as a skulk though, I think of it like skate boarding a half pipe. Only there is no half pipe ... or skateboard ... and my appendages are really pogo sticks in disguise...
As described to me by the other players who taught it to me, the biggest hurdle to get over is to not touch your forward keys to go forward, but go sideways... Personally, when I was learning it, I felt like I was gimping my hands up with all the repetitive motion. I totally get what he is saying when it tries to describe it, it really does lack flow.
Does anyone remember those Penny Arcade comics where it was like a spoof on that Stalingrad movie , where instead of snipers, it was bunny hopper vs bunny hopper?
Anyways, I guess there are things I would suggest the movement acquire if it must be kept:
- uses energy on a jump (has an upper limit)
- uses forward, backward, and strafe
- animations that "tilt" things so it represent agility and flow
That would satisfy the things that bug me about seeing it, doing it, and its impact on the game. But then, its not really bunny hop anymore, is it? Good.
No game, no musical instrument, no tool, no vehicle ever feels like that when you first pick it up; not even your own body(see babies).
"Mind and body link" is just a function of practicing until you can do it in your sleep. I don't think "strafe right + turn right, jump, strafe left + turn left, jump..." when I bunnyhop; I don't think at all, I just do it.
You don't even have to look at your keyboard, you barely even realise that you're typing text, you just do it: but watch someone learning to type on a keyboard for the first time and consider that at one point in time you were them.
As a <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/skulk.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::skulk::" border="0" alt="skulk.gif" /> ? Why not? With the amount of energy leap takes I don't see why you think that would be a problem.
<!--quoteo(post=1684796:date=Jul 30 2008, 09:17 AM:name=NovusAnimus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NovusAnimus @ Jul 30 2008, 09:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1684796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It would be cool if pouncing/blinking into a marine caused them to bounce back, but as the mod The Hidden for HL2 showed, server side physics is a deadly gamble, fun but glitches and server issues and slowdown abundant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its annoying enough when they bounce back from fade swipes i.e. when a marine is on a ledge and falls of causing you to have to chase after him. Imagine as the marine is unloading on you while your leaping towards him, then as you go to bite him you get him once, he bounces back, then finishes you off because you aren't able to close the gap fast enough to get a second bite in. Personally I think that Idea sounds dumb. Leap and Blink are fine the way they are and don't need anything else.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Soylent_green)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Soylent_green)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Mind and body link" is just a function of practicing until you can do it in your sleep. I don't think "strafe right + turn right, jump, strafe left + turn left, jump..." when I bunnyhop; I don't think at all, I just do it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These are exactly my sentiments.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=NovusAnimus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NovusAnimus)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I understand that you can make it like second nature Soylent, you can do that with anything. The idea is that the immersion is lost. You don't feel like a skulk when you bhop, you feel like you're controlling, as Wolverine said, a creature skateboarding on a pipe, minus the board or pipe and instead you have pogo sticks for legs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree with this statement. In fact regular alien movent as a skulk just feels clunky and slow to me. The amount of distance you can cover with celerity/bhopping feels far greater than what you can cover while just walking on the ground.
Leaping while in the air doesn't make any sense cause you need your god damn feet on the ground to leap when all you have for traveling be 4 spike feet. Whether it's a balanced gameplay tactic or not is irrelevant.
Hitting marines with blink/leap so they are knocked back would just add an interesting effect to the gameplay, as well as increase immersion. The Hidden stabs people just fine after leaping into them so they're knocked back, I wouldn't worry about it. Though, again, I was just talking about the immersion factor, not balance.
And of course celerity/bhopping makes you feel like you're covering more distance, cause you ARE. This doesn't change the fact that the idea of being a small little speedy skulk alien, and the idea of NS bhopping, are completely unrelated and you lose immersion when you try and bhop around. Really, if someone just takes a ######ing SECOND and looks at the control scheme to properly NS BHop, they'd realize how similar to playing a skate boarding game it is. I can't believe you guys are trying to argue looking left/jumping right then looking right/jumping left someone fits the bill of a skulk. Don't be absurd. Look at the list of "MAB link ok" movements I made above, look for a pattern, christ.