<!--quoteo(post=1693785:date=Nov 19 2008, 01:56 AM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sirot @ Nov 19 2008, 01:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1693785"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am really tired of posting in this thread, but it is impossible to prove that bunny hoping either made people leave or stay. For all we know, the pro-bunny hoppers are right. Or maybe they are wrong and NS1 heavily suffered for having bunny hopping.
It really depends on who you ask. If someone dislikes bunny hop, he or she will say that people left over it. If someone likes bunny hop, he or she will say that people stayed over it. People have agendas to fulfill regarding this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know this is never going to end. Nevertheless, I'd rather not leave any totally one sided posts on the top of the pile, because it just gives wrong picture for some of the future readers. I think we've seen enough of misconceptions about bhop, so no need to make this thread to spread those further on.
Feeding trolls isn't nice of course, but I think they're going to find a place in these forums anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1693804:date=Nov 19 2008, 06:29 AM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ Nov 19 2008, 06:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1693804"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you do this, movement skill is canceled. Can you say counter strike in space?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well now, he didn't say how exactly it'd work. Maybe movement wouldn't factor into it.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1693804:date=Nov 19 2008, 12:29 AM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ Nov 19 2008, 12:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1693804"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh sort of like spy backstabs with the buggy hitboxes?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> OT but that's not due to buggy hitboxes. That's just Source netcode where the built in delay makes it so you can rapidly turn but the server hasn't registered the turn in your model yet.
<!--quoteo(post=1693804:date=Nov 19 2008, 05:29 AM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ Nov 19 2008, 05:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1693804"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your gun actually shoots faster at 76fps than it does at 100 fps and shoots faster at 111fps than it does at 100fps for example.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Guns actually shoot slower above 100fps. But yeah 76fps for LMG does make it shoot faster; back when I used to play competetive, I had a script to change to 76fps when I had LMG out, and 100fps when I swapped to another weapon...
<!--quoteo(post=1694638:date=Nov 29 2008, 08:42 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Nov 29 2008, 08:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694638"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I thought it worked like this:
<img src="http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/7636/lmgrofme1.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yea I remember demonstrating to new players in the ANSL the difference between 20fps and 76fps. Had a friend fire his gun at 20fps and we timed our attacks using ventrilo. I ended up emptying almost half a clip faster than he did. 111fps works the best out of all of them because it doesn't sacrifice consistency and lets you have the best reaction time.
Or, they should just marry fire speed to something independent of frame rate.
Honestly, after ten pages, it's about time for one of the Dev team to weigh in. Which I hope they do shortly.
For my two cents: Saying an archaic glitch is a skill is asking to stall the genre back into the 90s. If bunny hopping is the ONLY reason you're playing this game and looking forward to the sequel, you really need to examine your priorities. Hell, I won't miss you if your bluff gets called and you decide to leave.
It's honestly the reason I stopped playing NS1, playing aliens became more about breaking the hitboxes than anything else. And since they didn't have access to the code, they had to balance around you "skill" players so that the entry level on the Kharaa was even higher than it was to begin with.
These exploits take on a life of their own. If you want a mirror to this, go look at the Halo 3 Battle Rifle. The group who complained about that change sound a damn lot alike the folks who're saying BHop needs to stay.
<!--quoteo(post=1694666:date=Nov 30 2008, 12:00 AM:name=Andrew_Fireborn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Andrew_Fireborn @ Nov 30 2008, 12:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694666"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or, they should just marry fire speed to something independent of frame rate.
Honestly, after ten pages, it's about time for one of the Dev team to weigh in. Which I hope they do shortly. For my two cents: Saying an archaic glitch is a skill is asking to stall the genre back into the 90s. If bunny hopping is the ONLY reason you're playing this game and looking forward to the sequel, you really need to examine your priorities. Hell, I won't miss you if your bluff gets called and you decide to leave.
It's honestly the reason I stopped playing NS1, playing aliens became more about breaking the hitboxes than anything else. And since they didn't have access to the code, they had to balance around you "skill" players so that the entry level on the Kharaa was even higher than it was to begin with.
These exploits take on a life of their own. If you want a mirror to this, go look at the Halo 3 Battle Rifle. The group who complained about that change sound a damn lot alike the folks who're saying BHop needs to stay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Leap and sidestepping ###### with hitboxes drastically more than bhop does. Your reason for leaving has absolutely nothing to do with airspeed control or bunny hop.
<!--quoteo(post=1694660:date=Nov 29 2008, 10:17 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Nov 29 2008, 10:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694660"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're right. The devs should lock FPS at 100 so that no one is given an unfair advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait...what? Your assumption that NS2 will use technology from the 90s is somewhat....troubling. Worse yet, are you even suggesting that attack rate on weapons should tied to frames per second?
<!--quoteo(post=1694666:date=Nov 30 2008, 05:00 AM:name=Andrew_Fireborn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Andrew_Fireborn @ Nov 30 2008, 05:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694666"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or, they should just marry fire speed to something independent of frame rate.
Honestly, after ten pages, it's about time for one of the Dev team to weigh in. Which I hope they do shortly. For my two cents: Saying an archaic glitch is a skill is asking to stall the genre back into the 90s. If bunny hopping is the ONLY reason you're playing this game and looking forward to the sequel, you really need to examine your priorities. Hell, I won't miss you if your bluff gets called and you decide to leave.
It's honestly the reason I stopped playing NS1, playing aliens became more about breaking the hitboxes than anything else. And since they didn't have access to the code, they had to balance around you "skill" players so that the entry level on the Kharaa was even higher than it was to begin with.
These exploits take on a life of their own. If you want a mirror to this, go look at the Halo 3 Battle Rifle. The group who complained about that change sound a damn lot alike the folks who're saying BHop needs to stay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're pulling off some quite weird arguments there. Breaking hitboxes? The decent rates and the predictability of movement nicely compensate the bullets you're going to lose because of speed. A skulk goes down with 20 bullets, no matter if its a bhopper or not. If you're speaking of the bhoppers as the halo3 battle rifle group (I've got no idea what's that discussion about), the hitbox breaking part makes you a prime example of the people against bhop. Feel free to complain about the bhop, even I can see it has huge flaws in it, but please at least base your arguments on something real instead of false assumptions.
Bhop isn't the only reason to play NS, but its the sticky substance that keeps the rest of the parts together. No matter whether its a firefight, teamwork, map navigation or even the RTS to some extend, you're going to think it through the physics of the game world. The NS system is by far the most interesting of the systems I've seen.
<!--quoteo(post=1694666:date=Nov 30 2008, 12:00 AM:name=Andrew_Fireborn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Andrew_Fireborn @ Nov 30 2008, 12:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694666"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Saying an archaic glitch is a skill is asking to stall the genre back into the 90s. If bunny hopping is the ONLY reason you're playing this game and looking forward to the sequel, you really need to examine your priorities. Hell, I won't miss you if your bluff gets called and you decide to leave.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It was an unintended result of the engine, but I don't see how that in any way qualifies your argument that it takes no skill and detracts from the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1694666:date=Nov 30 2008, 12:00 AM:name=Andrew_Fireborn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Andrew_Fireborn @ Nov 30 2008, 12:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694666"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... playing aliens became more about breaking the hitboxes than anything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There will be hit registry problems with <i>any</i> game played online, especially faster paced ones. The registry in this game is amazing considering all the factors.
<!--quoteo(post=1694666:date=Nov 30 2008, 12:00 AM:name=Andrew_Fireborn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Andrew_Fireborn @ Nov 30 2008, 12:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694666"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And since they didn't have access to the code, they had to balance around you "skill" players so that the entry level on the Kharaa was even higher than it was to begin with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Devs have iterated this point over and over: they <b>intentionally</b> left bunnyhopping in while they were fully capable of removing it.
<!--quoteo(post=1694666:date=Nov 30 2008, 12:00 AM:name=Andrew_Fireborn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Andrew_Fireborn @ Nov 30 2008, 12:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694666"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->These exploits take on a life of their own.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is this necessarily bad? It's almost impossible to describe how addicting the movement system in Natural Selection is. The responsiveness, control, and depth of player movement provide an extremely dynamic and engaging experience that I've yet to find in any other game.
It seems to bother the vast majority of opponents that bunnyhopping was a "glitch," which full implementation in the new engine and official support and acknowledgment of its presence in the game would resolve.
There really is no replacement for a system so simple and intuitive (yes, intuitive) yet so limitless in depth and expandability.
<!--quoteo(post=1694673:date=Nov 30 2008, 04:04 AM:name=enigma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(enigma @ Nov 30 2008, 04:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694673"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems to bother the vast majority of opponents that bunnyhopping was a "glitch," which full implementation in the new engine and official support and acknowledgment of its presence in the game would resolve.
There really is no replacement for a system so simple and intuitive (yes, intuitive) yet so limitless in depth and expandability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, but I have to stop you right there by saying bunny hopping is intuitive, that's ridiculous. The biggest issue with bunny hopping is that it not intuitive. It is completely reliant on the knowledge of exploiting engine mechanics and even instilling it as a acknowledged mechanic will not change that. You are moving forward faster by never touching the forward key in favor of hopping around while strafing. Who the hell will think that is intuitive. I don't care if you say bunny hopping cured your baldness and resurrected your kitty, but don't say messed up stuff like that.
<!--quoteo(post=1694694:date=Nov 30 2008, 05:29 PM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sirot @ Nov 30 2008, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694694"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry, but I have to stop you right there by saying bunny hopping is intuitive, that's ridiculous. The biggest issue with bunny hopping is that it not intuitive. It is completely reliant on the knowledge of exploiting engine mechanics and even instilling it as a acknowledged mechanic will not change that. You are moving forward faster by never touching the forward key in favor of hopping around while strafing. Who the hell will think that is intuitive. I don't care if you say bunny hopping cured your baldness and resurrected your kitty, but don't say messed up stuff like that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Much like it isn't intuitive how rifling in firearms increases accuracy due to spin am I right? Hang yourself.
I would actually prefer if we had a locked thread that detailed all the arguments for and against bunny hopping that we compiled. So this can done with, since I feel that I need to defend the fort whenever the sanctity of logical movement is threatened.
EDIT: Did you just realize that you compared engineering and proper manufacturing of a gun to a video game. Lets get rid of fancy interfaces and just use console commands so that only the worthy can play the game.
EDIT 2: Also, aNytiMe stop acting like an ass and attacking people personally whenever you disagree with them. You are way too negative. Anonymity does not mean you can be pompous. Whenever I try to be civil, you drop by and make it extremely difficult.
EDIT 3: Final note is that most bunny hoppers accepted that is unintuitive and is something that you need at least a tutorial to get. That is why I rejected enigma's argument because it getting to the point where each side is completely rejecting each others merits. The Bunny hop debate is primarily depth versus accessibility and immersion.
Accessibility? Yes, because a combination of strafing and looking is just <i>that much harder</i> to grasp than the idea of fading, lerking, or commanding.
Tweak the Jump, so you recieve a slight boost in momentum when running forward at full speed.
When not as 100% speed but instead @ 90% speed the jump would be normal. So when an alien ambushes you, if it's giving enough time( a fairly balanced but sorta short time) it could jump and instead of going upward, it would be more of a leep.
If the skulk lands on a new surface(such as floor to wall, or wall to ceiling)...they can perform the move again by holding the jump button after the first leep and releasing it when they touch the new surface.
<!--quoteo(post=1694717:date=Nov 30 2008, 05:54 PM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Nov 30 2008, 05:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694717"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sirot, read the first 3 pages of this thread and see if it changes your opinion at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I read this entire thread and I still think that bunny hopping is not something a modern game needs and actually will be a determent. Aside from the argument that it adds a higher skill ceiling to the game, the rest were analogies of "how awesome it made NS for me". The problem is that represents the view of the minority of players who deliberately sought out to find things to give them an edge over common players. If it was taken out of the accidental mechanic context and recognized as a full-fledged mechanic in the game, it would receive a lot more scrutiny. I consider it as a darling for the competitive community because I sincerely doubt that other people would look kindly on it for the reasons already highlighted in this thread.
Worse yet, the people defending it are slowly making more outrageous claims and that depresses me. I am done with this thread, I hope you enjoy your fanaticism. I said many times that discussing this was pointless and I forgot to heed my own advice.
<!--quoteo(post=1694727:date=Nov 30 2008, 06:56 PM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sirot @ Nov 30 2008, 06:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694727"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is that represents the view of the minority of players who deliberately sought out to find things to give them an edge over common players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Finding an edge over others is the definition of competition. If you bypass all mechanics that were only intentional after they were discovered as accidental features, you will lose far more than bunny hop. Good design flows from good design. I'm always glad when something I've designed naturally falls into place in a cool and novel way that makes it better. Bunny hop is a prime example of how this river of ideas is used by a developer to improve the game beyond their initial vision. If you remove it for this reason, you will bring into question a vast host of other good mechanics that you never even considered because the precedent is based on the faulty logic that because something was looked at with suspicion at first, that suspicion should be kept even after it's proved itself useful. It's similar to how the Amish throw out recent electronic technology without considering the simple question of whether or not it is beneficial.
For example: <a href="http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=105067" target="_blank">http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index....howtopic=105067</a>
enigma: please stop being an ass. Driving away other players doesn't help developers make NS2 a better game. the more brains the better and the more differing opinions the better to.
I have read most of the thread up until page 9. I have to say bunny hopping is an interesting dynamic. It adds a new skill to master but then again it raises the ceiling. Some people just don't get bunny hopping like me. I have played Q3, CS, TFC, UT and most times I can get it every once in a while but nothing actually useful.
In the current NS, bunny hopping is essential to skulks. It is part of their strength of speed and damage with little life. Depending on how NS2 works out it will be seen if bunny hopping is even needed, but pure speed SHOULD be enough to compensate without the need of the bunny hopping skill or just more speed when jumping.
But marines really shouldn't have bunny hopping. I understand that realism doesn't make a game any better. WarRock is a great example. During the first versions you had this roll dodge ability and while roll dodging you can reload but couldn't shoot. This allowed for some really intense and fun close combat situations. This was an odd dynamic that made the game fun that was accessible. But bunny hopping is not that accessible and adds a bonus in speed that has few disadvantages.
I think a roll and/or a sprint function would be a better dynamic than a bunny hop for marines. This would give them speed in a limited setting or a skill to dodge an attack.
<!--quoteo(post=1694727:date=Nov 30 2008, 11:56 PM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sirot @ Nov 30 2008, 11:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694727"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Worse yet, the people defending it are slowly making more outrageous claims and that depresses me. I am done with this thread, I hope you enjoy your fanaticism. I said many times that discussing this was pointless and I forgot to heed my own advice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There has been so much false info flying both ways, but I'd still say the pro bhoppers have been closer to the truth than most against it. Nevertheless, I don't know if there's a single good way to understand this one, apart from taking your time and learning the way it works.
If you want, I can point out probably a dozen of arguments based on the fact that people have absolutely no understanding of what bhop even does or what kind of possibilities it add to the gameplay. At least I feel those are way more outrageous than calling bhop inuitive.
Calling it inuitive is exaggeration, but it actually is inuitive once you can get past the phase one. From that point on you'll just keep doing it and becomes a kind of a second nature in a positive way.
Basically what I've understood, UWE is looking for some other means of skill movement for NS2. However, as long as someone comes up with some facts that prove it even somewhat worthy replacement, I'm going to stay where I've been for the last 10 or 11 pages. It's a flawed mechanic, but someone needs to come with something almost equally brilliant before I'm leaving this mechanic behind.
<!--quoteo(post=1694750:date=Dec 1 2008, 12:43 AM:name=seraph787)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(seraph787 @ Dec 1 2008, 12:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694750"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In the current NS, bunny hopping is essential to skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Where do people get this idea? It's not even <i>remotely </i>essential to good skulking. Never will you see a good skulk bunnyhop directly at a marine.
Comments
It really depends on who you ask. If someone dislikes bunny hop, he or she will say that people left over it. If someone likes bunny hop, he or she will say that people stayed over it. People have agendas to fulfill regarding this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know this is never going to end. Nevertheless, I'd rather not leave any totally one sided posts on the top of the pile, because it just gives wrong picture for some of the future readers. I think we've seen enough of misconceptions about bhop, so no need to make this thread to spread those further on.
Feeding trolls isn't nice of course, but I think they're going to find a place in these forums anyway.
OT but that's not due to buggy hitboxes. That's just Source netcode where the built in delay makes it so you can rapidly turn but the server hasn't registered the turn in your model yet.
Guns actually shoot slower above 100fps. But yeah 76fps for LMG does make it shoot faster; back when I used to play competetive, I had a script to change to 76fps when I had LMG out, and 100fps when I swapped to another weapon...
<img src="http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/7636/lmgrofme1.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/7636/lmgrofme1.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea I remember demonstrating to new players in the ANSL the difference between 20fps and 76fps. Had a friend fire his gun at 20fps and we timed our attacks using ventrilo. I ended up emptying almost half a clip faster than he did. 111fps works the best out of all of them because it doesn't sacrifice consistency and lets you have the best reaction time.
Honestly, after ten pages, it's about time for one of the Dev team to weigh in. Which I hope they do shortly.
For my two cents: Saying an archaic glitch is a skill is asking to stall the genre back into the 90s. If bunny hopping is the ONLY reason you're playing this game and looking forward to the sequel, you really need to examine your priorities. Hell, I won't miss you if your bluff gets called and you decide to leave.
It's honestly the reason I stopped playing NS1, playing aliens became more about breaking the hitboxes than anything else. And since they didn't have access to the code, they had to balance around you "skill" players so that the entry level on the Kharaa was even higher than it was to begin with.
These exploits take on a life of their own. If you want a mirror to this, go look at the Halo 3 Battle Rifle. The group who complained about that change sound a damn lot alike the folks who're saying BHop needs to stay.
Honestly, after ten pages, it's about time for one of the Dev team to weigh in. Which I hope they do shortly.
For my two cents: Saying an archaic glitch is a skill is asking to stall the genre back into the 90s. If bunny hopping is the ONLY reason you're playing this game and looking forward to the sequel, you really need to examine your priorities. Hell, I won't miss you if your bluff gets called and you decide to leave.
It's honestly the reason I stopped playing NS1, playing aliens became more about breaking the hitboxes than anything else. And since they didn't have access to the code, they had to balance around you "skill" players so that the entry level on the Kharaa was even higher than it was to begin with.
These exploits take on a life of their own. If you want a mirror to this, go look at the Halo 3 Battle Rifle. The group who complained about that change sound a damn lot alike the folks who're saying BHop needs to stay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Leap and sidestepping ###### with hitboxes drastically more than bhop does. Your reason for leaving has absolutely nothing to do with airspeed control or bunny hop.
Wait...what? Your assumption that NS2 will use technology from the 90s is somewhat....troubling. Worse yet, are you even suggesting that attack rate on weapons should tied to frames per second?
Honestly, after ten pages, it's about time for one of the Dev team to weigh in. Which I hope they do shortly.
For my two cents: Saying an archaic glitch is a skill is asking to stall the genre back into the 90s. If bunny hopping is the ONLY reason you're playing this game and looking forward to the sequel, you really need to examine your priorities. Hell, I won't miss you if your bluff gets called and you decide to leave.
It's honestly the reason I stopped playing NS1, playing aliens became more about breaking the hitboxes than anything else. And since they didn't have access to the code, they had to balance around you "skill" players so that the entry level on the Kharaa was even higher than it was to begin with.
These exploits take on a life of their own. If you want a mirror to this, go look at the Halo 3 Battle Rifle. The group who complained about that change sound a damn lot alike the folks who're saying BHop needs to stay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're pulling off some quite weird arguments there. Breaking hitboxes? The decent rates and the predictability of movement nicely compensate the bullets you're going to lose because of speed. A skulk goes down with 20 bullets, no matter if its a bhopper or not. If you're speaking of the bhoppers as the halo3 battle rifle group (I've got no idea what's that discussion about), the hitbox breaking part makes you a prime example of the people against bhop. Feel free to complain about the bhop, even I can see it has huge flaws in it, but please at least base your arguments on something real instead of false assumptions.
Bhop isn't the only reason to play NS, but its the sticky substance that keeps the rest of the parts together. No matter whether its a firefight, teamwork, map navigation or even the RTS to some extend, you're going to think it through the physics of the game world. The NS system is by far the most interesting of the systems I've seen.
It was an unintended result of the engine, but I don't see how that in any way qualifies your argument that it takes no skill and detracts from the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1694666:date=Nov 30 2008, 12:00 AM:name=Andrew_Fireborn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Andrew_Fireborn @ Nov 30 2008, 12:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694666"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... playing aliens became more about breaking the hitboxes than anything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There will be hit registry problems with <i>any</i> game played online, especially faster paced ones. The registry in this game is amazing considering all the factors.
<!--quoteo(post=1694666:date=Nov 30 2008, 12:00 AM:name=Andrew_Fireborn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Andrew_Fireborn @ Nov 30 2008, 12:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694666"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And since they didn't have access to the code, they had to balance around you "skill" players so that the entry level on the Kharaa was even higher than it was to begin with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Devs have iterated this point over and over: they <b>intentionally</b> left bunnyhopping in while they were fully capable of removing it.
<!--quoteo(post=1694666:date=Nov 30 2008, 12:00 AM:name=Andrew_Fireborn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Andrew_Fireborn @ Nov 30 2008, 12:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1694666"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->These exploits take on a life of their own.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is this necessarily bad? It's almost impossible to describe how addicting the movement system in Natural Selection is. The responsiveness, control, and depth of player movement provide an extremely dynamic and engaging experience that I've yet to find in any other game.
It seems to bother the vast majority of opponents that bunnyhopping was a "glitch," which full implementation in the new engine and official support and acknowledgment of its presence in the game would resolve.
There really is no replacement for a system so simple and intuitive (yes, intuitive) yet so limitless in depth and expandability.
There really is no replacement for a system so simple and intuitive (yes, intuitive) yet so limitless in depth and expandability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, but I have to stop you right there by saying bunny hopping is intuitive, that's ridiculous. The biggest issue with bunny hopping is that it not intuitive. It is completely reliant on the knowledge of exploiting engine mechanics and even instilling it as a acknowledged mechanic will not change that. You are moving forward faster by never touching the forward key in favor of hopping around while strafing. Who the hell will think that is intuitive. I don't care if you say bunny hopping cured your baldness and resurrected your kitty, but don't say messed up stuff like that.
Yay circular discussion...
Much like it isn't intuitive how rifling in firearms increases accuracy due to spin am I right? Hang yourself.
EDIT: Did you just realize that you compared engineering and proper manufacturing of a gun to a video game. Lets get rid of fancy interfaces and just use console commands so that only the worthy can play the game.
+forward
+forward
+forward
+turnleft
+turnleft
+shoot
+shoot
+forward
...
EDIT 2: Also, aNytiMe stop acting like an ass and attacking people personally whenever you disagree with them. You are way too negative. Anonymity does not mean you can be pompous. Whenever I try to be civil, you drop by and make it extremely difficult.
EDIT 3: Final note is that most bunny hoppers accepted that is unintuitive and is something that you need at least a tutorial to get. That is why I rejected enigma's argument because it getting to the point where each side is completely rejecting each others merits. The Bunny hop debate is primarily depth versus accessibility and immersion.
Yes, because a combination of strafing and looking is just <i>that much harder</i> to grasp than the idea of fading, lerking, or commanding.
Tweak the Jump, so you recieve a slight boost in momentum when running forward at full speed.
When not as 100% speed but instead @ 90% speed the jump would be normal. So when an alien ambushes you, if it's giving enough time( a fairly balanced but sorta short time) it could jump and instead of going upward, it would be more of a leep.
If the skulk lands on a new surface(such as floor to wall, or wall to ceiling)...they can perform the move again by holding the jump button after the first leep and releasing it when they touch the new surface.
I read this entire thread and I still think that bunny hopping is not something a modern game needs and actually will be a determent. Aside from the argument that it adds a higher skill ceiling to the game, the rest were analogies of "how awesome it made NS for me". The problem is that represents the view of the minority of players who deliberately sought out to find things to give them an edge over common players. If it was taken out of the accidental mechanic context and recognized as a full-fledged mechanic in the game, it would receive a lot more scrutiny. I consider it as a darling for the competitive community because I sincerely doubt that other people would look kindly on it for the reasons already highlighted in this thread.
Worse yet, the people defending it are slowly making more outrageous claims and that depresses me. I am done with this thread, I hope you enjoy your fanaticism. I said many times that discussing this was pointless and I forgot to heed my own advice.
I win.
Finding an edge over others is the definition of competition. If you bypass all mechanics that were only intentional after they were discovered as accidental features, you will lose far more than bunny hop. Good design flows from good design. I'm always glad when something I've designed naturally falls into place in a cool and novel way that makes it better. Bunny hop is a prime example of how this river of ideas is used by a developer to improve the game beyond their initial vision. If you remove it for this reason, you will bring into question a vast host of other good mechanics that you never even considered because the precedent is based on the faulty logic that because something was looked at with suspicion at first, that suspicion should be kept even after it's proved itself useful. It's similar to how the Amish throw out recent electronic technology without considering the simple question of whether or not it is beneficial.
For example: <a href="http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=105067" target="_blank">http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index....howtopic=105067</a>
I have read most of the thread up until page 9. I have to say bunny hopping is an interesting dynamic. It adds a new skill to master but then again it raises the ceiling. Some people just don't get bunny hopping like me. I have played Q3, CS, TFC, UT and most times I can get it every once in a while but nothing actually useful.
In the current NS, bunny hopping is essential to skulks. It is part of their strength of speed and damage with little life. Depending on how NS2 works out it will be seen if bunny hopping is even needed, but pure speed SHOULD be enough to compensate without the need of the bunny hopping skill or just more speed when jumping.
But marines really shouldn't have bunny hopping. I understand that realism doesn't make a game any better. WarRock is a great example. During the first versions you had this roll dodge ability and while roll dodging you can reload but couldn't shoot. This allowed for some really intense and fun close combat situations. This was an odd dynamic that made the game fun that was accessible. But bunny hopping is not that accessible and adds a bonus in speed that has few disadvantages.
I think a roll and/or a sprint function would be a better dynamic than a bunny hop for marines. This would give them speed in a limited setting or a skill to dodge an attack.
There has been so much false info flying both ways, but I'd still say the pro bhoppers have been closer to the truth than most against it. Nevertheless, I don't know if there's a single good way to understand this one, apart from taking your time and learning the way it works.
If you want, I can point out probably a dozen of arguments based on the fact that people have absolutely no understanding of what bhop even does or what kind of possibilities it add to the gameplay. At least I feel those are way more outrageous than calling bhop inuitive.
Calling it inuitive is exaggeration, but it actually is inuitive once you can get past the phase one. From that point on you'll just keep doing it and becomes a kind of a second nature in a positive way.
Basically what I've understood, UWE is looking for some other means of skill movement for NS2. However, as long as someone comes up with some facts that prove it even somewhat worthy replacement, I'm going to stay where I've been for the last 10 or 11 pages. It's a flawed mechanic, but someone needs to come with something almost equally brilliant before I'm leaving this mechanic behind.
Where do people get this idea? It's not even <i>remotely </i>essential to good skulking. Never will you see a good skulk bunnyhop directly at a marine.