<!--quoteo(post=1692147:date=Nov 2 2008, 12:44 PM:name=Epidemic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Epidemic @ Nov 2 2008, 12:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692147"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not introduce different mechanics that require different skills instead of bunnyhopping? I felt that was one of the problem of NS, the skulks ground speed attained by bunnyhopping in addition to the jittery movement produced because of it, made the gameplay feel too chaotic. NS needs to overhaul movement and combat stats entirely, making it easier to control, not harder. Bunnyhopping belongs in a different era, let it die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1692149:date=Nov 2 2008, 12:51 PM:name=Epidemic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Epidemic @ Nov 2 2008, 12:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692149"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Awww c'mon, I told you my problems with it and why it needs fixing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Out of curiosity, has anyone ever been convinced to switch sides in this debate? Anyone who as pro-hop go anit-hop and vica versa?
<!--quoteo(post=1692149:date=Nov 2 2008, 12:51 PM:name=Epidemic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Epidemic @ Nov 2 2008, 12:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692149"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Awww c'mon, I told you my problems with it and why it needs fixing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1692147:date=Nov 2 2008, 12:44 PM:name=Epidemic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Epidemic @ Nov 2 2008, 12:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692147"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not introduce different mechanics that require different skills instead of bunnyhopping? [1] I felt that was one of the problem of NS, the skulks ground speed [2] attained by bunnyhopping in addition to the jittery movement [3] produced because of it, made the gameplay feel too chaotic [4]. NS needs to overhaul movement and combat stats entirely [5], making it easier to control, not harder [6]. Bunnyhopping belongs in a different era, let it die [7].<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because bunnyhopping requires an extremely addictive blend of mastery and exhilaration. Removing it would require a substitution of at least equal quality, and I don't know how to design one at this time [1]. Ground speed is not effected by airspeed control [2]. There is no jittery movement or chaos. This is your interpretation of a mechanic you do not understand. If you actually knew how to bhop, you would realize that the fluidity of the mechanism is the only thing that keeps your speed going. Imagine a beehive; the bees circling the hive look chaotic because you're not seeing the method to their madness, but each one has a directed goal they're approaching. Bunny hop is similar [3, 4]. NS does not need a combat overhaul. It has one of the best skill-based movement systems around and the good elements of that system should be preserved [5]. Dumbing down a game does not make it better. You are unintentionally asking for dedicated players to be punished so that the unconscious mass doesn't feel so bad about their inability to perform a mechanic that has no direct correlation to their getting fragged in the first place, but which acts as a convenient scapegoat to assuage the need to face the reality of how poor they actually are at the game [6]. Good gameplay is timeless. Chess is still around even though bad players are punished by good players, and even though not all moves in the game make perfect sense to the novice [7].
EDIT: This topic is actually not entirely on loop, at least from the posts I've made, I don't remember directly addressing his specific concerns, that's why I made a reply instead of directing him to a past post.
<!--quoteo(post=1692157:date=Nov 2 2008, 05:35 PM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sirot @ Nov 2 2008, 05:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692157"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Out of curiosity, has anyone ever been convinced to switch sides in this debate? Anyone who as pro-hop go anit-hop and vica versa?
This topic is on loop otherwise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I haven't seen anyone doing that. In general people who do bhop also love it and those who don't bhop dislike it.
The division of the community itself is bad. Some have suggested removing bhop to remove the division, some have suggested making it more approachable to remove the gap.
I love the bhop, so I guess I'd like to see a somewhat similar system in NS2. The attempt of replacing bhop makes me feel nervous. It's little bit like some heart replacement surgery; it can be done, but the risks are huge.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited November 2008
Bunny hopping in its current form needs to go away and never come back. It needs to be replaced by an intuitive system that is easy to learn but difficult to master. A beginner should be able to watch and imitate another player's movement. It's just silly that someone needs to figure out that they must not press forward to go forward faster. Bunnyhopping is not just unintuitive, it is counter-intuitive and therefore distorts the learning curve. The skilled player will always need mechanisms to leverage their abilities and dedication to a game but there is NO REASON that these mechanisms need to be outside the capabilities of a more casual and less skilled player.
Radix, the chess comparison isn't going to wash. Chess is a symmetrical and intuitive game. You can learn basic rules and improve through repetition.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are unintentionally asking for dedicated players to be punished<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think nobody is arguing against skill based movement techniques in general, but the arcane and esoteric sets of tricks and tweaks that is bunnyhopping.
Tell me why exactly your skill based movement has to be counter-intuitive and based on engine artifacts? This game isn't being developed to massage the egos of a few addicts, but to bring the exhilaration of NS to a wider audience and I really hope the development team DO NOT include bunnyhopping in its current form.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Out of curiosity, has anyone ever been convinced to switch sides in this debate? Anyone who as pro-hop go anit-hop and vica versa?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've switched sides. I used to be anti-bunnyhopping as I sort of inherited it when I discovered NS from the community I was apart of. It wasn't until I got more into NS and actually learned how to bunnyhop that I found I really enjoyed it. I would always argue against removing bunnyhopping from NS1.
I can bhop but don't care terribly much either way. It helps alleviate the boredom of walking, but on the other hand I feel I'm not supposed to go over my assigned max speed.
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Bunny hopping should be gone in NS2 seeing as how it was more an unintended, yet fun, movement quirk. I would rather see something neat like movement based skills for every alien class that is easy to understand for newbies, yet takes a lot of skill to do it really well.
For example:
1) Skulk could have something that lets good players pounce against multiple walls to get into primo ambush spots. 2) Gorge could use a slime slick to slide down hallways faster than walking by moving from left to right in quick succession. 3) Lerk would become harder to hit when going into a steep dive while gliding after some controlled flapping. Maybe his wings would fold around his body while gliding like this. 4) Fade could "leave his body" for a few seconds to scope out what's around the corner, but only while blinking in quick succession. 5) Onos could use skilled gorge's slime slick to get to hot spots faster (or any other kharra) by skipping on it to slide more.
Marines could also have some movement abilities but different to keep with their slow moving, heavy hitting design:
1) Walking back to back with another marine while walking through a hallway gives you enhanced hearing to hear kharra that may be coming your direction, instead of them being on top of you. 2) While sprinting marines could "grind" on their armor to jump over railings or small obstacles.
You get the idea. Stuff like this could be made so its relatively easy to learn for newbies but takes a while to get really good at it in a tense game.
It's funny. People are having this exact same argument with the development of Starcraft 2.
The discussion is about Multiple Building Selection, which means you can select as many buildings as you like, press 1 key and have them build an army for you. While in the original Starcraft it took alot of time to select each individual building to make an army.
The pro-side:
Choosing the right time in which to move the screen away from your units and take the time out to return to your base and to keep your army building throughout the game is one of the main things that differentiates an excellent player from a medicore one. The huge amount of multitasking and practice required to perform this task is just being ripped out of the game and replaced with nothing, lowering the overall skill cap.
The casual player side: At first their argument was that MBS did not limit the skill cap but after proof emerged that it did, they moved on to saying hand speed should not determine how good a player is at building an army, Starcraft should be more about strategy and micro than how fast you can build an army.
There's alot more to it (about 400 pages of posts) but that's the basics.
Basically you have the pro players that want the game to be challenging and rewarding to the ones that put the effort in to learn and the casual player side that want to be able to do what the pros do, with half the work.
Therein lies the problem. The reason I played Starcraft for 10 years is because still today I am learning new things and am no where near mastering it. I have played NS since 1.04 and feel that I have mastered it, although it was challenging, and that's why I stuck with it and didn't get bored. The developers need to make a choice, to diversify the game as much as possible, creating a steep learning curve (Natural Selection, Counter-Strike, Quake 3, Starcraft etc.) to keep players like me interested or reduce the overall difficulty of the game and replace it with special abilities that are easy to learn and moderately-easy to execute (Couter-Strike: Source, Team Fortress 2, Warcraft 3 etc.) The developers need to decide if they're making a game for their mother to play or if they're making a game for the hardcore community.
My view on Bunnyhopping is that it's an ability that is there if you want to use it. Some games I will go through skulking without ever using it to take out a marine, as ambushing on certain maps is more powerful, however it's great for getting around a map alot faster to defend key points and it also provides that extra bit of learning curve for players like me to stay interested.
As far as changing it to something else goes, I'm with Radix. Why fix what isn't broken.
Are you suggesting that bhop is removed so that gorges can wigglewalk with slot3 warming lubricant?
<!--quoteo(post=1692228:date=Nov 3 2008, 08:47 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Nov 3 2008, 08:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Radix, the chess comparison isn't going to wash. Chess is a symmetrical and intuitive game. You can learn basic rules and improve through repetition.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How did you learn En Passant? How about castling? How about the fact that a pawn can only capture diagonally forward except when it gets to the other end of the board and then it becomes the most powerful piece on the board?
Bunny hop is more intuitive than any of those mechanics and far less gamebreaking.
<!--quoteo(post=1692228:date=Nov 3 2008, 08:47 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Nov 3 2008, 08:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tell me why exactly your skill based movement has to be counter-intuitive and based on engine artifacts?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't. It just is.
<!--quoteo(post=1692228:date=Nov 3 2008, 08:47 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Nov 3 2008, 08:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's just silly that someone needs to figure out that they must not press forward to go forward faster.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Feel free to suggest something better.
<!--quoteo(post=1692228:date=Nov 3 2008, 08:47 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Nov 3 2008, 08:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This game isn't being developed to massage the egos of a few addicts, but to bring the exhilaration of NS to a wider audience...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Catering to a wide audience is good. Throwing out huge chunks of gameplay to massage the egos of the unconscious mass is stupid, and the only reason I bother posting about it is that it seems to be the trend in video games to socialize skill. I don't want the game developer telling me how good I'm allowed to be. I want to be as skilled and dedicated as I'm willing to pay for with my time and effort. That's why sports appeal to me, and why I haven't bought a new online videogame in months.
In Quake games, bunny hop is the norm. From Jedi Outcast to Warsow and (without my firsthand knowledge) assumedly Quake 3 and Unreal Tournament. The only reason bunnyhop is so controversial here is that you have to bind mousewheeldown to hop properly, or design a small program to do it for you within the game system (which is now banned on the majority of pub servers in America for no reasonable reason whatsoever). <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->The engine quirks you should be focused on are not the addicting and enthralling qualities of the game, but the unneccesary barriers that don't exist in other games, that are stopping <i>new</i> (not bad) players from getting into the deeper aspects of play.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Bad players will always find a scapegoat to blame. We're only painting the shed about this particular topic because it's so easy to comment on. The reality is that bunnyhop isn't stopping anyone from getting good anymore than aiming, or situational awareness, or generally being awake while playing is stopping them. Giving a little boost to players (such as warsow's movement school) is more than adequate for a mechanic that doesn't matter until you've optimized your resource control, ambushing, teamwork, not to mention aim and other movements like blink and jetpack usage.
Barring complete socialization of skill, you won't change anyone's ability to play with any degree of intuition you want to implement (even though it is a good thing to have in most cases). Ask around in your community if you doubt my dedication to helping new players to get into the game, and I'm not saying you need to make the game unintuitive on purpose - I'm telling you to keep the best - most rewarding - elements in the game, and that this is one of them.
You know how addicting and deep Starcraft is. There's a reason for that, and whatever your decision on this one mechanic, you won't accomplish a similar design by deleting irreparably beneficial gameplay that gives advanced players hundreds of hours of replay value and which has entire maps designed exclusively for it. Especially when those mechanics have minimal impact in comparison with the most critical elements of the game like ambushing, or resource control.
I'm a programmer. The whole bunny hop thing was a bug/exploit will always be, even if it gets implemented as feature because the users of such bug/exploit kept pressuring to keep this bug/exploit so they can keep an advantage on people who don't know or didn't bother learning to exploit this bug. But, if it had to be "implemented", there are some ideas...
- The faster, the most probable the person might stumble and faceplants on the ground, leaving the person without defense for 1 second or 2 - Only scout style with light armor and light weapons classes would be able to bunny hop - Hitting (bumping on a wall or ennemy) something will HURT you (sorry, but seeing someone going at 50 Km/h when he got a speed boost from the roof in de_nuke in Counter Strike Source, I so wish something bad would happend to someone playing Superman) - The bunny hop would only be available from a pricey upgrade. This way, people wouldn't get the edge at the start of the game from simply bunny hopping, and we know that the team setting a base the faster is quite a desicive factor for victory :3
Are you suggesting that bhop is removed so that gorges can wigglewalk with slot3 warming lubricant? How did you learn En Passant? How about castling? How about the fact that a pawn can only capture diagonally forward except when it gets to the other end of the board and then it becomes the most powerful piece on the board?
Bunny hop is more intuitive than any of those mechanics and far less gamebreaking. It doesn't. It just is. Feel free to suggest something better. Catering to a wide audience is good. Throwing out huge chunks of gameplay to massage the egos of the unconscious mass is stupid, and the only reason I bother posting about it is that it seems to be the trend in video games to socialize skill. I don't want the game developer telling me how good I'm allowed to be. I want to be as skilled and dedicated as I'm willing to pay for with my time and effort. That's why sports appeal to me, and why I haven't bought a new online videogame in months.
In Quake games, bunny hop is the norm. From Jedi Outcast to Warsow and (without my firsthand knowledge) assumedly Quake 3 and Unreal Tournament. The only reason bunnyhop is so controversial here is that you have to bind mousewheeldown to hop properly, or design a small program to do it for you within the game system (which is now banned on the majority of pub servers in America for no reasonable reason whatsoever). <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->The engine quirks you should be focused on are not the addicting and enthralling qualities of the game, but the unneccesary barriers that don't exist in other games, that are stopping <i>new</i> (not bad) players from getting into the deeper aspects of play.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Bad players will always find a scapegoat to blame. We're only painting the shed about this particular topic because it's so easy to comment on. The reality is that bunnyhop isn't stopping anyone from getting good anymore than aiming, or situational awareness, or generally being awake while playing is stopping them. Giving a little boost to players (such as warsow's movement school) is more than adequate for a mechanic that doesn't matter until you've optimized your resource control, ambushing, teamwork, not to mention aim and other movements like blink and jetpack usage.
Barring complete socialization of skill, you won't change anyone's ability to play with any degree of intuition you want to implement (even though it is a good thing to have in most cases). Ask around in your community if you doubt my dedication to helping new players to get into the game, and I'm not saying you need to make the game unintuitive on purpose - I'm telling you to keep the best - most rewarding - elements in the game, and that this is one of them. You know how addicting and deep Starcraft is. There's a reason for that, and whatever your decision on this one mechanic, you won't accomplish a similar design by deleting irreparably beneficial gameplay that gives advanced players hundreds of hours of replay value and which has entire maps designed exclusively for it. Especially when those mechanics have minimal impact in comparison with the most critical elements of the game like ambushing, or resource control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this thread is generally full of ignorance. it is amusing that the people who are against bunnyhopping are generally those who cannot do it, while those who can do it are generally for it. bunnyhopping = the most fun ever in an fps. theres nothing like bunnyhopping around some of the more open maps in natural selection. i can bunnyhop but i can hardly use it to my own tactical advantage, however, it is still great fun to do it and i believe it must stay in game. if it is eliminated something of equal brilliance must be implemented. though i dont see how you could ever top bhopping. some of the greatest things are mistakes.
<!--quoteo(post=1692302:date=Nov 4 2008, 03:06 AM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Nov 4 2008, 03:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692302"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How did you learn En Passant? How about castling? How about the fact that a pawn can only capture diagonally forward except when it gets to the other end of the board and then it becomes the most powerful piece on the board?
Bunny hop is more intuitive than any of those mechanics and far less gamebreaking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're both silly for trying to compare chess to NS. While both are purely mathematical systems of rules, one is a direct representation of itself while the other is supposed to be a simulation of a 3D world.
All of the rules in Chess are simply that, rules, none of intuitive or non-intuitive, you sit down and read a book and memorize the rules, that's it. There is no intuitive board games, they all come with instruction manuals that lay out EVERY SINGLE RULE for you for a reason.
NS is completely different, it doesn't explain to you gravity or that pressing forward makes you move forward or that jumping makes you jump. These are all things that gameplay takes for granted that the player will know because they live in a world that is 3D. It tries to take these rules that are drilled into your head by real life and play off of them so that its supernatural functions aren't odd and out of place. Flapping your wings, jumping around corners, pouncing/blinking around, they all work off very simple 3D math that's based on the real world.
The rule that should never be broken in 3D simulation: A FORCE APPLIED TO ANY AXIS CANNOT AND WILL NOT BE APPLIED TO ANOTHER AXIS. If I fire a gun horizontally over a flat surface, and drop a bullet from the same height at the same time, both will hit the ground at the same time, just with one half a mile away.
The thing that is so ######ed up about BHopping is that it's the only thing in NS that blatantly, without any quirks or weird reasonings or extensions of real life, flat out breaks these rules set up by real life, these rules that 3D simulators strive to copy. BHopping violates the axis rule completely, and the axis rule is one of the, if not the founding rule behind 3D simulation and real life, thus why people think it extremely counter-intuitive to break it.
If there was a reason that Skulks moved forward faster on their Z/X axis by jumping on their X axis and then facing their Z axis, I wouldn't mind it. Perhaps Skulks have ######ed up muscles on the legs and have sort of curved wings on their sides that told a player -hey, look at me, I am a very weird creature that has aerodynamic properties if I jump to the side then spin to face that direction.- It wouldn't be so bad then, but as is a small creature with spikes for legs that gets faster by BHopping HL style is a very ######ed up rule that's only kept by players because they've grown attached.
So, my proposals:
1) Use regular bhopping (try Painkiller), where you can hold any direction, and jumping the moment you hit the ground prevents you from losing speed. Skulks have spikes for feet, it kind of makes sense that they'd be faster jumping around than running around.
2) Create some sort of reason for skulks that makes BHopping (as is currently) make sense. ######ed up looking wings and sideways hind legs or something, I dunno, anything that sparks any sort of relation between the task and real life rules, specifically the Axis rule. Also make it so hitting the jump button a split second before landing will still spark a jump.
Your argument is that a) bunnyhop is unrealistic and realism is more important than fun or replay value, and b) 3D FPS gamers are so incomprehensibly retarded that they can't watch a 4 minute movie showing them how to manage airspeed control in a way that is <b>fundamentally not required to play the game</b>, whereas a board game player doesn't mind taking 30 minutes to learn how to play Clue.
I answered your first point directly <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=104580&view=findpost&p=1684259" target="_blank">on page one</a>, and the latter is a fundamental difference of opinion between our points of view.
Hey, don't mistake me for arguing realism versus gameplay. Regular all direction bhopping is fine, hell rocket jumping ala Quake/TF is fine, mid-air redirection with double jumps ala UT is fine, a ridiculously low terminal velocity is fine, I have no problem with gameplay being held over realism. But jumping on your X axis, then shifting that velocity to your Z axis, and in this process your total velocity is increased... that doesn't even remotely make sense. There's no connection between that action and even the craziest stuff you see in 3D games.
All I'm saying is, either find a way for a connection to be made between your brain and BHopping, or scrap it.
If I made a game, and told you you ran faster when looking down at the ground, would you think that a good idea? I bet if I had a large game community, and some people sneakily found that out, and used it to become better players, and this tactic was eventually made public, we'd be in this same boat, people arguing that such a ridiculous retarded concept should be kept because it makes the game more fun, for them anyway.
Edit: I love how this thread gets necro'd after 2 weeks death and no one even blinks, we all just get back to the old job. I love this thread. I also just realized that it was created with Radix quoting my complaints. I feel honored.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1692373:date=Nov 4 2008, 01:25 PM:name=NovusAnimus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NovusAnimus @ Nov 4 2008, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692373"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Edit: I love how this thread gets necro'd after 2 weeks death and no one even blinks, we all just get back to the old job.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This thread hasn't died since 2002.
Ok I don't post here often but heres my two cents. My gamer name is mac. I have played this game daily for many years now and my skills have improve over time. However, even after all this time I still refuse to b-hop. Its not that I don't know how or that I don't wish to learn. Its because it wasn't originally intended. I feel that its abused and unbalances the game. On many occasions I have seen a gorge without celerity escape certain death by heal spray b-hopping its way out of danger. These instances when a player cheats death causes the unbalances. The player should've died and been force to re-gorge. Instead he simply avoids death and comes back to to continue the wall of lame or worse builds the resource tower that he should not have had the res to build. The same is said when a skulk is able to achieve fade in under 2 minutes. And lets not forget the b-hopping onos that never dies. ONE person should not dictate the outcome of a match. As I have stated in previous post if these advantages are brought to NS2, Unknown Worlds needs to make it part of the game. Equal game play with TEAM work making the difference is what makes the game so very popular. The "elite" gamer is why the new guy rages, gives up and finally stops playing altogether. The "elite/scripter/macro" <(makes me laugh) hurts the game when others don't know how to use the same advantages. Think about it...I walk outside, I get kicked in the balls and fall back inside. I get up thinking thats some bs and walk outside again, only to get kick in the balls again. "Oh gee! What fun! C'mon everybody LET'S GO KICKED IN THE BALLS!" But the truth is I'm not walking back outside. In fact I'm gunna rage and move to a new house. So please make it so that everyone enjoys the same advantages. Also, lets mention marines spawn camping the hive. This is another game killing moment. I saw a picture in some of the NS2 artwork that depicted some silvery fish like creature swimming around the hive. Having those creatures protecting the hive would be a great idea. It shouldn't stop the spawn killing but it should cost the marine commander the med packs so that it couldn't be both a strategic and a financial advantage.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I made a game, and told you you ran faster when looking down at the ground, would you think that a good idea? I bet if I had a large game community, and some people sneakily found that out, and used it to become better players, and this tactic was eventually made public, we'd be in this same boat, people arguing that such a ridiculous retarded concept should be kept because it makes the game more fun, for them anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Looking down at the ground is not bunnyhopping and doesn't take any skill/brain activity to execute and it certainly doesn't need constant maintenance/adjustment from the player. Also, this doesn't add the challenge of timing your jumps in order to hit elevation changes with maximum airtime gain. Just maintaining bunnyhopping takes godlike skill at certain times, looking downward consistently takes 0 skill.
Bunnyhopping isn't something you can just learn in 5 minutes and say "oh hey now I'm better than all other people that didn't spend the 5 minutes." It takes weeks to work it into your skulking, a month to learn to glide jump as a marine with good proficiency and many months to learn to use bunnyhopping as a fade without hitting architecture. It is only the next step at getting better after you actually admit to yourself that you are a novice.
What are news going to whine about next? Good accuracy? Oh wait...
Ninja edit: Mac, bunnyhopping doesn't unbalance the game. Also, a single player <u>should</u> be able to influence the outcome of a match if he is good enough. This is called a skill curve and if you remove it, you have TF2 in space.
My suggestion was supposed to be vague and sketchy, though I don't think you're giving it enough credit. Looking down and playing an FPS at the same time would be really damn hard as you'd need to be able to be aware of your surroundings at all times while looking down. Not so easy, and it can lead to all sorts of crazy tactics involving the 'looking down' math. My point stands.
<!--quoteo(post=1692380:date=Nov 4 2008, 02:07 PM:name=nsmac)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nsmac @ Nov 4 2008, 02:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692380"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok I don't post here often but heres my two cents. My gamer name is mac. I have played this game daily for many years now and my skills have improve over time. However, even after all this time I still refuse to b-hop. Its not that I don't know how or that I don't wish to learn. Its because it wasn't originally intended. I feel that its abused and unbalances the game. On many occasions I have seen a gorge without celerity escape certain death by heal spray b-hopping its way out of danger. These instances when a player cheats death causes the unbalances. The player should've died and been force to re-gorge. Instead he simply avoids death and comes back to to continue the wall of lame or worse builds the resource tower that he should not have had the res to build. The same is said when a skulk is able to achieve fade in under 2 minutes. And lets not forget the b-hopping onos that never dies. ONE person should not dictate the outcome of a match. As I have stated in previous post if these advantages are brought to NS2, Unknown Worlds needs to make it part of the game. Equal game play with TEAM work making the difference is what makes the game so very popular. The "elite" gamer is why the new guy rages, gives up and finally stops playing altogether. The "elite/scripter/macro" <(makes me laugh) hurts the game when others don't know how to use the same advantages. Think about it...I walk outside, I get kicked in the balls and fall back inside. I get up thinking thats some bs and walk outside again, only to get kick in the balls again. "Oh gee! What fun! C'mon everybody LET'S GO KICKED IN THE BALLS!" But the truth is I'm not walking back outside. In fact I'm gunna rage and move to a new house. So please make it so that everyone enjoys the same advantages. Also, lets mention marines spawn camping the hive. This is another game killing moment. I saw a picture in some of the NS2 artwork that depicted some silvery fish like creature swimming around the hive. Having those creatures protecting the hive would be a great idea. It shouldn't stop the spawn killing but it should cost the marine commander the med packs so that it couldn't be both a strategic and a financial advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ignorant. if bunny hopping was not intended for natural selection alien movement the creaters of the modification would have removed it. hmm, what i mean to say is this: while it may have originally not been intended for bunny hopping to be prevalent in natural selection(which doesnt strike me as correct since the devs were working with the half life engine and must have had knowledge of bunny hop mechanics) it turned out that bunny hopping was acceptable for the alien team. it was unacceptable for the marine team because, at least then, i believe the theory was that marines should be at least less maneuverable than aliens. but while marine bunny hopping was removed, alien bunny hopping stayed. i view this as a direct decision for bunny hopping. who knows what the reason, and their mindset might have changed since then. i do hope it is in ns2 and i do hope it is as fluid as ns1.
Not that anything I have to say hasn't been said before, but I have a nit to pick.
<!--quoteo(post=1692373:date=Nov 4 2008, 01:25 PM:name=NovusAnimus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NovusAnimus @ Nov 4 2008, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692373"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...jumping on your X axis, then shifting that velocity to your Z axis, and in this process your total velocity is increased... that doesn't even remotely make sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't make sense, but it's also not how bunny hopping works. The role of jumping in bunny hopping is to minimize the deceleration caused by ground friction. The jumping itself does not increase the player's ground speed. The increase in ground speed is caused by the strafing and turning of the player in plane with the ground. The timing of the jumps does not need to be related to the sequence of the strafing and turning. The jumping part of bunny hopping is not the main source of its unrealism, air control is.
The unrealistic physics can be explained simply: Turning and strafing in the same direction causes the player to accelerate forward. Turning and strafing in opposite directions causes the player to accelerate backwards. The rate at which the player turns affects the player's acceleration. Holding forward greatly reduces the player's ability to strafe and therefore also affects the player's acceleration.
Bunny hopping aside, air control greatly increases the depth of blink and leap as well as basic movement, and can be applied somehow to almost every class in the game. The skills and knowledge needed to bunny hop are powerful and transferable and not all that difficult to learn. I think any player who cares about the game could greatly benefit from learning them. Even if bunny hopping is somehow removed, I hope air control remains in NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1692415:date=Nov 4 2008, 11:40 PM:name=c4t)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(c4t @ Nov 4 2008, 11:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692415"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ignorant. if bunny hopping was not intended for natural selection alien movement the creaters of the modification would have removed it. hmm, what i mean to say is this: while it may have originally not been intended for bunny hopping to be prevalent in natural selection(which doesnt strike me as correct since the devs were working with the half life engine and must have had knowledge of bunny hop mechanics) it turned out that bunny hopping was acceptable for the alien team. it was unacceptable for the marine team because, at least then, i believe the theory was that marines should be at least less maneuverable than aliens. but while marine bunny hopping was removed, alien bunny hopping stayed. i view this as a direct decision for bunny hopping. who knows what the reason, and their mindset might have changed since then. i do hope it is in ns2 and i do hope it is as fluid as ns1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ninja edit: Mac, bunnyhopping doesn't unbalance the game. Also, a single player should be able to influence the outcome of a match if he is good enough. This is called a skill curve and if you remove it, you have TF2 in space.
ok I stand corrected as to bhopping being intended. but i didnt say remove it. I said give it to all make it easy for everybody to use. AND no one player should not be able to decide the game. Experience is one thing. BUT A SINGLE ALIEN SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO STOP 15 PLAYERS. Nor should ONE marine. You see bhopping isnt my problem. Its the single player who stops a team. Its not right.
<i>"I have played this game daily for many years now and my skills have improve over time. However, even after all this time I still refuse to b-hop. Its not that I don't know how or that I don't wish to learn. Its because it wasn't originally intended. I feel that its abused and unbalances the game."</i>
- If it wasn't intended it would of been removed, like marine bhop. It's not abused, it's used to it's potential by players that know how. The game is balanced, the reason you get your arse handed to you is because that player is better than you. That's how it's meant to work.
<i>"On many occasions I have seen a gorge without celerity escape certain death by heal spray b-hopping its way out of danger. These instances when a player cheats death causes the unbalances. The player should've died and been force to re-gorge. Instead he simply avoids death and comes back to to continue the wall of lame or worse builds the resource tower that he should not have had the res to build. The same is said when a skulk is able to achieve fade in under 2 minutes. And lets not forget the b-hopping onos that never dies. ONE person should not dictate the outcome of a match. As I have stated in previous post if these advantages are brought to NS2, Unknown Worlds needs to make it part of the game."</i>
- You can't kill a non-cele gorge with heal-spray and you're blaming the <i>game</i> for that? This is such a weak argument, there's only one person to blame and that's you, maybe if you took this view you might actually be able to kill that gorge one day by improving yourself rather than asking for things to be done for you.
- If a player can fade after 2 minutes, he's done alot of work for his team and is being rewarded for it. There is no problem here.
<i>"Equal game play with TEAM work making the difference is what makes the game so very popular. The "elite" gamer is why the new guy rages, gives up and finally stops playing altogether. The "elite/scripter/macro" <(makes me laugh) hurts the game when others don't know how to use the same advantages. Think about it...I walk outside, I get kicked in the balls and fall back inside. I get up thinking thats some bs and walk outside again, only to get kick in the balls again. "Oh gee! What fun! C'mon everybody LET'S GO KICKED IN THE BALLS!" But the truth is I'm not walking back outside. In fact I'm gunna rage and move to a new house. So please make it so that everyone enjoys the same advantages."</i>
- What this says to me is that you think that somehow scripts can only be used by a super secret elite society, that these super elite players were never ever noobs and never got their arses handed to them and that bad players should not get beaten by good players. You live in a fantasy world, keep dreaming.
<i>Also, lets mention marines spawn camping the hive. This is another game killing moment. I saw a picture in some of the NS2 artwork that depicted some silvery fish like creature swimming around the hive. Having those creatures protecting the hive would be a great idea. It shouldn't stop the spawn killing but it should cost the marine commander the med packs so that it couldn't be both a strategic and a financial advantage.</i>
- If the marines are able to spawn camp your hive, they either timed their camping at the right time or your team is simply out-classed, either way if they can pull it off they deserve the win.
- It's like rushing in Starcraft, noobs that don't know how to stop a zergling rush will cry that it's imbalanced and it should be removed from the game but do it to any experienced player and he'll stop it with no effort.
I say to you that Im not bitter and my skills are fine. I lead the score boards frequently. Frankly I love the game. It would seem that any type of improvement to the game is whats makes you a lesser player and that you are bitter toward any suggestion that limits or changes your personal skill. Single players shouldnt be able to suppress entire teams. A bhopping gorge that make enormous leaps down ramps and can escape faster than a celerity skulk is BULL and you know this. Stop being selfish. The game needed +movement wrote into the code and it needs to have the same game controls made available to everybody. Whats the matter? Are you afraid that you wont be able to pawn everybody. This should be welcomed. The intensity will rise during the game. But, as things are now these types of differences that cause most to hate the game. They either dont understand or feel that the other person is cheating. Defending concepts that make the game UNPOPULAR is defeating. Finally you make too many assumptions. Your post is biased and you lash out at me because you think I dont understand. You didnt miss that I have played for years but you assume far to much as to my skill. If you dont have anything constructive to say ...then dont say anything.
<!--quoteo(post=1692537:date=Nov 5 2008, 06:19 PM:name=nsmac)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nsmac @ Nov 5 2008, 06:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692537"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I say to you that Im not bitter and my skills are fine. I lead the score boards frequently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've seen you around and I'm not too impressed. There is a big difference between being better than the majority of pubbers and being good.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It would seem that any type of improvement to the game is whats makes you a lesser player and that you are bitter toward any suggestion that limits or changes your personal skill. Single players shouldnt be able to suppress entire teams.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok, follow this logic:
A player has been playing for a while, knows most of the ins and outs of the game, has good reflexes and aim. A newbie joins the game. Who should win?
Yes, no marine should be able to hold up to 12 skulks attacking at the same time, but 12 skulks almost never attack a single marine at the same time. NS games at the pub level are usually just a compilation of lightning fast 1:1s or 1:2s. So who should be winning, Mustang or NSPlayer?
Also, it should be noted that the player out dominating in the field is helpless without a good commander to keep him supplied and provide divine intervention (well aimed meds in combat) once in a while.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A bhopping gorge that make enormous leaps down ramps and can escape faster than a celerity skulk is BULL and you know this. Stop being selfish.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem here is that gorges have too much health, it is true. It shouldn't take a clip to kill a gorge. But then again, no matter how you fight, you will almost always be in advantageous position when fighting gorges, just block its way out as you run up to it. You shouldn't need a strategy guide if you've played this game for more than a month.
Also can someone find out the movement speed of a gorge and a skulk so we can test the hypothesis that celerity gorges can bhop faster than celerity skulks can run. Must be a 3.0/3.1 change.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The game needed +movement wrote into the code and it needs to have the same game controls made available to everybody. Whats the matter? Are you afraid that you wont be able to pawn everybody. This should be welcomed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +movement is welcomed, because typing a script takes no relevant skill, nor does it add depth. Bunnyhopping takes relevant skill and adds depth and shouldn't be obscured. Of course you wouldn't understand the depth because you don't have any idea what we're talking about. Learn it sometime <u>and then</u> argue.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The intensity will rise during the game. But, as things are now these types of differences that cause most to hate the game. They either dont understand or feel that the other person is cheating. Defending concepts that make the game UNPOPULAR is defeating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wait, I've seen this argument before, anyone else notice it?
<!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->I'm angry people are better than me, they must be aimbotting.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
You guys are thinking way too much into this. Comparing NS to Chess? They two have barely anything alike. Yes I am in the "against bunny hop" camp, but this is being blown completely out of proportion. Bunny hop is a move mechanic. It's not perfect either. It is far from it even. The arguments have been repeated and they have been attacked more than enough to justify that.
Is it essential to make the game fun? No.
Will it be missed? Perhaps.
Is it a mechanic that should exist in a game 2008...2009...whenever NS2 is being released? No.
NS2 should be a sequel and players need to learn new things. Otherwise, what is the point of making a sequel?
Even simpler, if a mechanic can incite such outright division in the community, it should not be in there. The game should be there to unite people in play (stolen from the development team's mission goal) and the subject of what being discussed here is not doing that.
EDIT: I was thinking and here one more thing. One of the arguments for Bunny Hop was that the devs never completely removed it from the game. I have a good idea of why they did this and even now, refuse to talk about it in NS2. They don't want to deal with <b>this</b>.
Comments
Why fix something if it isn't broken?
Out of curiosity, has anyone ever been convinced to switch sides in this debate? Anyone who as pro-hop go anit-hop and vica versa?
This topic is on loop otherwise.
<!--quoteo(post=1692147:date=Nov 2 2008, 12:44 PM:name=Epidemic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Epidemic @ Nov 2 2008, 12:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692147"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not introduce different mechanics that require different skills instead of bunnyhopping? [1] I felt that was one of the problem of NS, the skulks ground speed [2] attained by bunnyhopping in addition to the jittery movement [3] produced because of it, made the gameplay feel too chaotic [4]. NS needs to overhaul movement and combat stats entirely [5], making it easier to control, not harder [6]. Bunnyhopping belongs in a different era, let it die [7].<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because bunnyhopping requires an extremely addictive blend of mastery and exhilaration. Removing it would require a substitution of at least equal quality, and I don't know how to design one at this time [1]. Ground speed is not effected by airspeed control [2]. There is no jittery movement or chaos. This is your interpretation of a mechanic you do not understand. If you actually knew how to bhop, you would realize that the fluidity of the mechanism is the only thing that keeps your speed going. Imagine a beehive; the bees circling the hive look chaotic because you're not seeing the method to their madness, but each one has a directed goal they're approaching. Bunny hop is similar [3, 4]. NS does not need a combat overhaul. It has one of the best skill-based movement systems around and the good elements of that system should be preserved [5]. Dumbing down a game does not make it better. You are unintentionally asking for dedicated players to be punished so that the unconscious mass doesn't feel so bad about their inability to perform a mechanic that has no direct correlation to their getting fragged in the first place, but which acts as a convenient scapegoat to assuage the need to face the reality of how poor they actually are at the game [6]. Good gameplay is timeless. Chess is still around even though bad players are punished by good players, and even though not all moves in the game make perfect sense to the novice [7].
EDIT: This topic is actually not entirely on loop, at least from the posts I've made, I don't remember directly addressing his specific concerns, that's why I made a reply instead of directing him to a past post.
This topic is on loop otherwise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I haven't seen anyone doing that. In general people who do bhop also love it and those who don't bhop dislike it.
The division of the community itself is bad. Some have suggested removing bhop to remove the division, some have suggested making it more approachable to remove the gap.
I love the bhop, so I guess I'd like to see a somewhat similar system in NS2. The attempt of replacing bhop makes me feel nervous. It's little bit like some heart replacement surgery; it can be done, but the risks are huge.
Radix, the chess comparison isn't going to wash. Chess is a symmetrical and intuitive game. You can learn basic rules and improve through repetition.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are unintentionally asking for dedicated players to be punished<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think nobody is arguing against skill based movement techniques in general, but the arcane and esoteric sets of tricks and tweaks that is bunnyhopping.
Tell me why exactly your skill based movement has to be counter-intuitive and based on engine artifacts? This game isn't being developed to massage the egos of a few addicts, but to bring the exhilaration of NS to a wider audience and I really hope the development team DO NOT include bunnyhopping in its current form.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Out of curiosity, has anyone ever been convinced to switch sides in this debate? Anyone who as pro-hop go anit-hop and vica versa?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've switched sides. I used to be anti-bunnyhopping as I sort of inherited it when I discovered NS from the community I was apart of. It wasn't until I got more into NS and actually learned how to bunnyhop that I found I really enjoyed it. I would always argue against removing bunnyhopping from NS1.
For example:
1) Skulk could have something that lets good players pounce against multiple walls to get into primo ambush spots.
2) Gorge could use a slime slick to slide down hallways faster than walking by moving from left to right in quick succession.
3) Lerk would become harder to hit when going into a steep dive while gliding after some controlled flapping. Maybe his wings would fold around his body while gliding like this.
4) Fade could "leave his body" for a few seconds to scope out what's around the corner, but only while blinking in quick succession.
5) Onos could use skilled gorge's slime slick to get to hot spots faster (or any other kharra) by skipping on it to slide more.
Marines could also have some movement abilities but different to keep with their slow moving, heavy hitting design:
1) Walking back to back with another marine while walking through a hallway gives you enhanced hearing to hear kharra that may be coming your direction, instead of them being on top of you.
2) While sprinting marines could "grind" on their armor to jump over railings or small obstacles.
You get the idea. Stuff like this could be made so its relatively easy to learn for newbies but takes a while to get really good at it in a tense game.
The discussion is about Multiple Building Selection, which means you can select as many buildings as you like, press 1 key and have them build an army for you. While in the original Starcraft it took alot of time to select each individual building to make an army.
The pro-side:
Choosing the right time in which to move the screen away from your units and take the time out to return to your base and to keep your army building throughout the game is one of the main things that differentiates an excellent player from a medicore one.
The huge amount of multitasking and practice required to perform this task is just being ripped out of the game and replaced with nothing, lowering the overall skill cap.
The casual player side:
At first their argument was that MBS did not limit the skill cap but after proof emerged that it did, they moved on to saying
hand speed should not determine how good a player is at building an army, Starcraft should be more about strategy and micro than how fast you can build an army.
There's alot more to it (about 400 pages of posts) but that's the basics.
Basically you have the pro players that want the game to be challenging and rewarding to the ones that put the effort in to learn and the casual player side that want to be able to do what the pros do, with half the work.
Therein lies the problem. The reason I played Starcraft for 10 years is because still today I am learning new things and am no where near mastering it. I have played NS since 1.04 and feel that I have mastered it, although it was challenging, and that's why I stuck with it and didn't get bored. The developers need to make a choice, to diversify the game as much as possible, creating a steep learning curve (Natural Selection, Counter-Strike, Quake 3, Starcraft etc.) to keep players like me interested or reduce the overall difficulty of the game and replace it with special abilities that are easy to learn and moderately-easy to execute (Couter-Strike: Source, Team Fortress 2, Warcraft 3 etc.) The developers need to decide if they're making a game for their mother to play or if they're making a game for the hardcore community.
My view on Bunnyhopping is that it's an ability that is there if you want to use it. Some games I will go through skulking without ever using it to take out a marine, as ambushing on certain maps is more powerful, however it's great for getting around a map alot faster to defend key points and it also provides that extra bit of learning curve for players like me to stay interested.
As far as changing it to something else goes, I'm with Radix. Why fix what isn't broken.
Are you suggesting that bhop is removed so that gorges can wigglewalk with slot3 warming lubricant?
<!--quoteo(post=1692228:date=Nov 3 2008, 08:47 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Nov 3 2008, 08:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Radix, the chess comparison isn't going to wash. Chess is a symmetrical and intuitive game. You can learn basic rules and improve through repetition.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How did you learn En Passant? How about castling? How about the fact that a pawn can only capture diagonally forward except when it gets to the other end of the board and then it becomes the most powerful piece on the board?
Bunny hop is more intuitive than any of those mechanics and far less gamebreaking.
<!--quoteo(post=1692228:date=Nov 3 2008, 08:47 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Nov 3 2008, 08:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tell me why exactly your skill based movement has to be counter-intuitive and based on engine artifacts?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't. It just is.
<!--quoteo(post=1692228:date=Nov 3 2008, 08:47 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Nov 3 2008, 08:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's just silly that someone needs to figure out that they must not press forward to go forward faster.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Feel free to suggest something better.
<!--quoteo(post=1692228:date=Nov 3 2008, 08:47 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Nov 3 2008, 08:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692228"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This game isn't being developed to massage the egos of a few addicts, but to bring the exhilaration of NS to a wider audience...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Catering to a wide audience is good. Throwing out huge chunks of gameplay to massage the egos of the unconscious mass is stupid, and the only reason I bother posting about it is that it seems to be the trend in video games to socialize skill. I don't want the game developer telling me how good I'm allowed to be. I want to be as skilled and dedicated as I'm willing to pay for with my time and effort. That's why sports appeal to me, and why I haven't bought a new online videogame in months.
In Quake games, bunny hop is the norm. From Jedi Outcast to Warsow and (without my firsthand knowledge) assumedly Quake 3 and Unreal Tournament. The only reason bunnyhop is so controversial here is that you have to bind mousewheeldown to hop properly, or design a small program to do it for you within the game system (which is now banned on the majority of pub servers in America for no reasonable reason whatsoever). <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->The engine quirks you should be focused on are not the addicting and enthralling qualities of the game, but the unneccesary barriers that don't exist in other games, that are stopping <i>new</i> (not bad) players from getting into the deeper aspects of play.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Bad players will always find a scapegoat to blame. We're only painting the shed about this particular topic because it's so easy to comment on. The reality is that bunnyhop isn't stopping anyone from getting good anymore than aiming, or situational awareness, or generally being awake while playing is stopping them. Giving a little boost to players (such as warsow's movement school) is more than adequate for a mechanic that doesn't matter until you've optimized your resource control, ambushing, teamwork, not to mention aim and other movements like blink and jetpack usage.
Barring complete socialization of skill, you won't change anyone's ability to play with any degree of intuition you want to implement (even though it is a good thing to have in most cases). Ask around in your community if you doubt my dedication to helping new players to get into the game, and I'm not saying you need to make the game unintuitive on purpose - I'm telling you to keep the best - most rewarding - elements in the game, and that this is one of them.
You know how addicting and deep Starcraft is. There's a reason for that, and whatever your decision on this one mechanic, you won't accomplish a similar design by deleting irreparably beneficial gameplay that gives advanced players hundreds of hours of replay value and which has entire maps designed exclusively for it. Especially when those mechanics have minimal impact in comparison with the most critical elements of the game like ambushing, or resource control.
- The faster, the most probable the person might stumble and faceplants on the ground, leaving the person without defense for 1 second or 2
- Only scout style with light armor and light weapons classes would be able to bunny hop
- Hitting (bumping on a wall or ennemy) something will HURT you (sorry, but seeing someone going at 50 Km/h when he got a speed boost from the roof in de_nuke in Counter Strike Source, I so wish something bad would happend to someone playing Superman)
- The bunny hop would only be available from a pricey upgrade. This way, people wouldn't get the edge at the start of the game from simply bunny hopping, and we know that the team setting a base the faster is quite a desicive factor for victory :3
Are you suggesting that bhop is removed so that gorges can wigglewalk with slot3 warming lubricant?
How did you learn En Passant? How about castling? How about the fact that a pawn can only capture diagonally forward except when it gets to the other end of the board and then it becomes the most powerful piece on the board?
Bunny hop is more intuitive than any of those mechanics and far less gamebreaking.
It doesn't. It just is.
Feel free to suggest something better.
Catering to a wide audience is good. Throwing out huge chunks of gameplay to massage the egos of the unconscious mass is stupid, and the only reason I bother posting about it is that it seems to be the trend in video games to socialize skill. I don't want the game developer telling me how good I'm allowed to be. I want to be as skilled and dedicated as I'm willing to pay for with my time and effort. That's why sports appeal to me, and why I haven't bought a new online videogame in months.
In Quake games, bunny hop is the norm. From Jedi Outcast to Warsow and (without my firsthand knowledge) assumedly Quake 3 and Unreal Tournament. The only reason bunnyhop is so controversial here is that you have to bind mousewheeldown to hop properly, or design a small program to do it for you within the game system (which is now banned on the majority of pub servers in America for no reasonable reason whatsoever). <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->The engine quirks you should be focused on are not the addicting and enthralling qualities of the game, but the unneccesary barriers that don't exist in other games, that are stopping <i>new</i> (not bad) players from getting into the deeper aspects of play.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Bad players will always find a scapegoat to blame. We're only painting the shed about this particular topic because it's so easy to comment on. The reality is that bunnyhop isn't stopping anyone from getting good anymore than aiming, or situational awareness, or generally being awake while playing is stopping them. Giving a little boost to players (such as warsow's movement school) is more than adequate for a mechanic that doesn't matter until you've optimized your resource control, ambushing, teamwork, not to mention aim and other movements like blink and jetpack usage.
Barring complete socialization of skill, you won't change anyone's ability to play with any degree of intuition you want to implement (even though it is a good thing to have in most cases). Ask around in your community if you doubt my dedication to helping new players to get into the game, and I'm not saying you need to make the game unintuitive on purpose - I'm telling you to keep the best - most rewarding - elements in the game, and that this is one of them.
You know how addicting and deep Starcraft is. There's a reason for that, and whatever your decision on this one mechanic, you won't accomplish a similar design by deleting irreparably beneficial gameplay that gives advanced players hundreds of hours of replay value and which has entire maps designed exclusively for it. Especially when those mechanics have minimal impact in comparison with the most critical elements of the game like ambushing, or resource control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this thread is generally full of ignorance. it is amusing that the people who are against bunnyhopping are generally those who cannot do it, while those who can do it are generally for it. bunnyhopping = the most fun ever in an fps. theres nothing like bunnyhopping around some of the more open maps in natural selection. i can bunnyhop but i can hardly use it to my own tactical advantage, however, it is still great fun to do it and i believe it must stay in game. if it is eliminated something of equal brilliance must be implemented. though i dont see how you could ever top bhopping. some of the greatest things are mistakes.
great posts radix
Bunny hop is more intuitive than any of those mechanics and far less gamebreaking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're both silly for trying to compare chess to NS. While both are purely mathematical systems of rules, one is a direct representation of itself while the other is supposed to be a simulation of a 3D world.
All of the rules in Chess are simply that, rules, none of intuitive or non-intuitive, you sit down and read a book and memorize the rules, that's it. There is no intuitive board games, they all come with instruction manuals that lay out EVERY SINGLE RULE for you for a reason.
NS is completely different, it doesn't explain to you gravity or that pressing forward makes you move forward or that jumping makes you jump. These are all things that gameplay takes for granted that the player will know because they live in a world that is 3D. It tries to take these rules that are drilled into your head by real life and play off of them so that its supernatural functions aren't odd and out of place. Flapping your wings, jumping around corners, pouncing/blinking around, they all work off very simple 3D math that's based on the real world.
The rule that should never be broken in 3D simulation:
A FORCE APPLIED TO ANY AXIS CANNOT AND WILL NOT BE APPLIED TO ANOTHER AXIS. If I fire a gun horizontally over a flat surface, and drop a bullet from the same height at the same time, both will hit the ground at the same time, just with one half a mile away.
The thing that is so ######ed up about BHopping is that it's the only thing in NS that blatantly, without any quirks or weird reasonings or extensions of real life, flat out breaks these rules set up by real life, these rules that 3D simulators strive to copy. BHopping violates the axis rule completely, and the axis rule is one of the, if not the founding rule behind 3D simulation and real life, thus why people think it extremely counter-intuitive to break it.
If there was a reason that Skulks moved forward faster on their Z/X axis by jumping on their X axis and then facing their Z axis, I wouldn't mind it. Perhaps Skulks have ######ed up muscles on the legs and have sort of curved wings on their sides that told a player -hey, look at me, I am a very weird creature that has aerodynamic properties if I jump to the side then spin to face that direction.- It wouldn't be so bad then, but as is a small creature with spikes for legs that gets faster by BHopping HL style is a very ######ed up rule that's only kept by players because they've grown attached.
So, my proposals:
1) Use regular bhopping (try Painkiller), where you can hold any direction, and jumping the moment you hit the ground prevents you from losing speed. Skulks have spikes for feet, it kind of makes sense that they'd be faster jumping around than running around.
2) Create some sort of reason for skulks that makes BHopping (as is currently) make sense. ######ed up looking wings and sideways hind legs or something, I dunno, anything that sparks any sort of relation between the task and real life rules, specifically the Axis rule. Also make it so hitting the jump button a split second before landing will still spark a jump.
3) If all else fails, remove it.
I answered your first point directly <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=104580&view=findpost&p=1684259" target="_blank">on page one</a>, and the latter is a fundamental difference of opinion between our points of view.
All I'm saying is, either find a way for a connection to be made between your brain and BHopping, or scrap it.
If I made a game, and told you you ran faster when looking down at the ground, would you think that a good idea? I bet if I had a large game community, and some people sneakily found that out, and used it to become better players, and this tactic was eventually made public, we'd be in this same boat, people arguing that such a ridiculous retarded concept should be kept because it makes the game more fun, for them anyway.
Edit: I love how this thread gets necro'd after 2 weeks death and no one even blinks, we all just get back to the old job. I love this thread. I also just realized that it was created with Radix quoting my complaints. I feel honored.
This thread hasn't died since 2002.
Looking down at the ground is not bunnyhopping and doesn't take any skill/brain activity to execute and it certainly doesn't need constant maintenance/adjustment from the player. Also, this doesn't add the challenge of timing your jumps in order to hit elevation changes with maximum airtime gain. Just maintaining bunnyhopping takes godlike skill at certain times, looking downward consistently takes 0 skill.
Bunnyhopping isn't something you can just learn in 5 minutes and say "oh hey now I'm better than all other people that didn't spend the 5 minutes." It takes weeks to work it into your skulking, a month to learn to glide jump as a marine with good proficiency and many months to learn to use bunnyhopping as a fade without hitting architecture. It is only the next step at getting better after you actually admit to yourself that you are a novice.
What are news going to whine about next? Good accuracy? Oh wait...
Ninja edit: Mac, bunnyhopping doesn't unbalance the game. Also, a single player <u>should</u> be able to influence the outcome of a match if he is good enough. This is called a skill curve and if you remove it, you have TF2 in space.
ignorant. if bunny hopping was not intended for natural selection alien movement the creaters of the modification would have removed it. hmm, what i mean to say is this: while it may have originally not been intended for bunny hopping to be prevalent in natural selection(which doesnt strike me as correct since the devs were working with the half life engine and must have had knowledge of bunny hop mechanics) it turned out that bunny hopping was acceptable for the alien team. it was unacceptable for the marine team because, at least then, i believe the theory was that marines should be at least less maneuverable than aliens. but while marine bunny hopping was removed, alien bunny hopping stayed. i view this as a direct decision for bunny hopping. who knows what the reason, and their mindset might have changed since then. i do hope it is in ns2 and i do hope it is as fluid as ns1.
<!--quoteo(post=1692373:date=Nov 4 2008, 01:25 PM:name=NovusAnimus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NovusAnimus @ Nov 4 2008, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1692373"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...jumping on your X axis, then shifting that velocity to your Z axis, and in this process your total velocity is increased... that doesn't even remotely make sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't make sense, but it's also not how bunny hopping works. The role of jumping in bunny hopping is to minimize the deceleration caused by ground friction. The jumping itself does not increase the player's ground speed. The increase in ground speed is caused by the strafing and turning of the player in plane with the ground. The timing of the jumps does not need to be related to the sequence of the strafing and turning. The jumping part of bunny hopping is not the main source of its unrealism, air control is.
The unrealistic physics can be explained simply:
Turning and strafing in the same direction causes the player to accelerate forward.
Turning and strafing in opposite directions causes the player to accelerate backwards.
The rate at which the player turns affects the player's acceleration.
Holding forward greatly reduces the player's ability to strafe and therefore also affects the player's acceleration.
Bunny hopping aside, air control greatly increases the depth of blink and leap as well as basic movement, and can be applied somehow to almost every class in the game. The skills and knowledge needed to bunny hop are powerful and transferable and not all that difficult to learn. I think any player who cares about the game could greatly benefit from learning them. Even if bunny hopping is somehow removed, I hope air control remains in NS2.
Ninja edit: Mac, bunnyhopping doesn't unbalance the game. Also, a single player should be able to influence the outcome of a match if he is good enough. This is called a skill curve and if you remove it, you have TF2 in space.
ok I stand corrected as to bhopping being intended. but i didnt say remove it. I said give it to all make it easy for everybody to use. AND no one player should not be able to decide the game. Experience is one thing. BUT A SINGLE ALIEN SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO STOP 15 PLAYERS. Nor should ONE marine.
You see bhopping isnt my problem. Its the single player who stops a team. Its not right.
- If it wasn't intended it would of been removed, like marine bhop. It's not abused, it's used to it's potential by players that know how. The game is balanced, the reason you get your arse handed to you is because that player is better than you. That's how it's meant to work.
<i>"On many occasions I have seen a gorge without celerity escape certain death by heal spray b-hopping its way out of danger. These instances when a player cheats death causes the unbalances. The player should've died and been force to re-gorge. Instead he simply avoids death and comes back to to continue the wall of lame or worse builds the resource tower that he should not have had the res to build. The same is said when a skulk is able to achieve fade in under 2 minutes. And lets not forget the b-hopping onos that never dies. ONE person should not dictate the outcome of a match. As I have stated in previous post if these advantages are brought to NS2, Unknown Worlds needs to make it part of the game."</i>
- You can't kill a non-cele gorge with heal-spray and you're blaming the <i>game</i> for that? This is such a weak argument, there's only one person to blame and that's you, maybe if you took this view you might actually be able to kill that gorge one day by improving yourself rather than asking for things to be done for you.
- If a player can fade after 2 minutes, he's done alot of work for his team and is being rewarded for it. There is no problem here.
<i>"Equal game play with TEAM work making the difference is what makes the game so very popular. The "elite" gamer is why the new guy rages, gives up and finally stops playing altogether. The "elite/scripter/macro" <(makes me laugh) hurts the game when others don't know how to use the same advantages. Think about it...I walk outside, I get kicked in the balls and fall back inside. I get up thinking thats some bs and walk outside again, only to get kick in the balls again. "Oh gee! What fun! C'mon everybody LET'S GO KICKED IN THE BALLS!" But the truth is I'm not walking back outside. In fact I'm gunna rage and move to a new house. So please make it so that everyone enjoys the same advantages."</i>
- What this says to me is that you think that somehow scripts can only be used by a super secret elite society, that these super elite players were never ever noobs and never got their arses handed to them and that bad players should not get beaten by good players. You live in a fantasy world, keep dreaming.
<i>Also, lets mention marines spawn camping the hive. This is another game killing moment. I saw a picture in some of the NS2 artwork that depicted some silvery fish like creature swimming around the hive. Having those creatures protecting the hive would be a great idea. It shouldn't stop the spawn killing but it should cost the marine commander the med packs so that it couldn't be both a strategic and a financial advantage.</i>
- If the marines are able to spawn camp your hive, they either timed their camping at the right time or your team is simply out-classed, either way if they can pull it off they deserve the win.
- It's like rushing in Starcraft, noobs that don't know how to stop a zergling rush will cry that it's imbalanced and it should be removed from the game but do it to any experienced player and he'll stop it with no effort.
- I say to you
Dont be bitter, get better
I've seen you around and I'm not too impressed. There is a big difference between being better than the majority of pubbers and being good.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It would seem that any type of improvement to the game is whats makes you a lesser player and that you are bitter toward any suggestion that limits or changes your personal skill. Single players shouldnt be able to suppress entire teams.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, follow this logic:
A player has been playing for a while, knows most of the ins and outs of the game, has good reflexes and aim. A newbie joins the game.
Who should win?
Yes, no marine should be able to hold up to 12 skulks attacking at the same time, but 12 skulks almost never attack a single marine at the same time. NS games at the pub level are usually just a compilation of lightning fast 1:1s or 1:2s. So who should be winning, Mustang or NSPlayer?
Also, it should be noted that the player out dominating in the field is helpless without a good commander to keep him supplied and provide divine intervention (well aimed meds in combat) once in a while.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A bhopping gorge that make enormous leaps down ramps and can escape faster than a celerity skulk is BULL and you know this. Stop being selfish.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem here is that gorges have too much health, it is true. It shouldn't take a clip to kill a gorge. But then again, no matter how you fight, you will almost always be in advantageous position when fighting gorges, just block its way out as you run up to it. You shouldn't need a strategy guide if you've played this game for more than a month.
Also can someone find out the movement speed of a gorge and a skulk so we can test the hypothesis that celerity gorges can bhop faster than celerity skulks can run. Must be a 3.0/3.1 change.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The game needed +movement wrote into the code and it needs to have the same game controls made available to everybody. Whats the matter? Are you afraid that you wont be able to pawn everybody. This should be welcomed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+movement is welcomed, because typing a script takes no relevant skill, nor does it add depth. Bunnyhopping takes relevant skill and adds depth and shouldn't be obscured. Of course you wouldn't understand the depth because you don't have any idea what we're talking about. Learn it sometime <u>and then</u> argue.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The intensity will rise during the game. But, as things are now these types of differences that cause most to hate the game. They either dont understand or feel that the other person is cheating. Defending concepts that make the game UNPOPULAR is defeating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait, I've seen this argument before, anyone else notice it?
<!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->I'm angry people are better than me, they must be aimbotting.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Is it essential to make the game fun? No.
Will it be missed? Perhaps.
Is it a mechanic that should exist in a game 2008...2009...whenever NS2 is being released? No.
NS2 should be a sequel and players need to learn new things. Otherwise, what is the point of making a sequel?
Even simpler, if a mechanic can incite such outright division in the community, it should not be in there. The game should be there to unite people in play (stolen from the development team's mission goal) and the subject of what being discussed here is not doing that.
EDIT: I was thinking and here one more thing. One of the arguments for Bunny Hop was that the devs never completely removed it from the game. I have a good idea of why they did this and even now, refuse to talk about it in NS2. They don't want to deal with <b>this</b>.