Nukes..
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Nerdish by NatureGermany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
Nerdish by NatureGermany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
<div class="IPBDescription">..ideas to bring them back.</div><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Charlie is thinking of ways that nukes can make it into NS2 (they were in NS1 pre v1.0 and they were a ton of fun).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I want to invite everyone to present ideas in this thread, which may help to bring nukes back and make them a valid strategy and part of gameplay.
Obviously it seems kinda silly to have nukes on spaceships unless those nukes are specially designed to attack bacteria/infestation.
In order to give nukes it's own unique gameplay I was thinking about the following ideas and situations:
-First of all the nuke acts like the mobil siege cannon, which means the commander can control it and move it into the hive, while marines are guarding it.
-Once in the proper position the commander can deploy it so it doesn't move anymore and marines have to use it for a certain amount of time in order to arm it.
-The timer is set to something like 20-30 seconds.
-Aliens can destroy the nuke before it's armed. Afterwards they need a gorge to infest the nuke in order to defuse it (only one gorge; around 10 seconds defusion time). Alternatively an onos can devour the nuke in order to absorb all damage and sacrifice itself.
-The nuke has area damage and kills the fully healed hive, when deployed nearby. Thus it also kills nearby chambers and the res tower and of course marines that didn't make it out in time.
This seems similar to the de_scenarios in cs, but I think it'd still play out differently.
It's useful to attack a building hive, because you have to stay and defend inside the room for a short amount of time. Sieges would be more suited for hives that are finished or close to.
Another idea would be to have the commander drop a building inside the hive, which works as a laser marker for the nuke.
Marines have to build it and also guard it almost until the timer ends. Aliens simply would need to destroy the building acting as a marker to prevent the nuke from hitting.
In this scenario the nuke is not a unit on the field, but rather "stored" in an additional building in the marine base until launched.
Obviously proper hitpoints are needed for either the nuke or the laser marker in order to make it work with the durations and times.
What are your thought, what are your ideas to bring back nukes without making them overpowered or boring/frustrating for aliens???
I want to invite everyone to present ideas in this thread, which may help to bring nukes back and make them a valid strategy and part of gameplay.
Obviously it seems kinda silly to have nukes on spaceships unless those nukes are specially designed to attack bacteria/infestation.
In order to give nukes it's own unique gameplay I was thinking about the following ideas and situations:
-First of all the nuke acts like the mobil siege cannon, which means the commander can control it and move it into the hive, while marines are guarding it.
-Once in the proper position the commander can deploy it so it doesn't move anymore and marines have to use it for a certain amount of time in order to arm it.
-The timer is set to something like 20-30 seconds.
-Aliens can destroy the nuke before it's armed. Afterwards they need a gorge to infest the nuke in order to defuse it (only one gorge; around 10 seconds defusion time). Alternatively an onos can devour the nuke in order to absorb all damage and sacrifice itself.
-The nuke has area damage and kills the fully healed hive, when deployed nearby. Thus it also kills nearby chambers and the res tower and of course marines that didn't make it out in time.
This seems similar to the de_scenarios in cs, but I think it'd still play out differently.
It's useful to attack a building hive, because you have to stay and defend inside the room for a short amount of time. Sieges would be more suited for hives that are finished or close to.
Another idea would be to have the commander drop a building inside the hive, which works as a laser marker for the nuke.
Marines have to build it and also guard it almost until the timer ends. Aliens simply would need to destroy the building acting as a marker to prevent the nuke from hitting.
In this scenario the nuke is not a unit on the field, but rather "stored" in an additional building in the marine base until launched.
Obviously proper hitpoints are needed for either the nuke or the laser marker in order to make it work with the durations and times.
What are your thought, what are your ideas to bring back nukes without making them overpowered or boring/frustrating for aliens???
Comments
he's onto something here...
Marines dropping down expensive radioactive metals in areas to discourage DI growth
I don't know how much locational denying a 10 room map can have, but otherwise it sounds reasonable. At least use as a destuctive bomb feels a little weird as long as there are GLs or even NS1 styled shotties. Maybe some sneak strategies could use explosives to hurt the enemy tech/economy buildings, but otherwise the location denial sounds a lot more interesting.
In general the concept of nuke feel a little too much of the 1.0 era hive: It's often a pure win-lose situation. If it fails, you lose, if it works, you win.
Nuke sounds too big for a spacestation, unless it's like a micro nuke like the 1 in spacetroopers, even then, mass hull damage would happen, :O venting air.
You're assuming massive earth shattering explosion. Plus, there's plenty of that in the C&C universe, and it gets played in there.
It's all about balancing the cost and the reward. Here's some easy points as detailed in previous posts that can be used.
COSTS:
-fragile
-needs to be moved (escorted)
-startup time
-noises that it makes while armed
-easily removable
-activation time
-bulky
-hurts own team as well (need to evacuate area)
REWARDS:
-large area effect
-area denial
-high damage output
There's others I probably forgot, but you get the picture. Just fiddle with these variables until you get something that's worth the cost, but not overpowered and omg spam this insta-win button.
Possibly just have it as a high tech-tree alternative end for marines, other than killing all the hives.... :\
"DETONATE THE NUKE SO WE ALL WIN!" *boom, everyone is dead, all hives dead, all buildings dead*
That sounds fun
"DETONATE THE NUKE SO WE ALL WIN!" *boom, everyone is dead, all hives dead, all buildings dead*
That sounds fun<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As much as I approve of for the lolz elements, I'm pretty sure not everyone will enjoy that. =[
I'm not a fan of superweapons myself. They are rarely used except when one side already has a massive advantage, or as a siegebreaker. So usually they are only an option once one team has already won the game. With mobile siege cannons in the game, what role will they even be able to play? What do aliens have as an equivalent?
<i>Edit: If you don't enjoy spam, don't quote it. Also, please don't bypas the swear filter. -- tankefugl</i>
What someone here above described, with the radiation area-denial and all, sounds more like a dirty bomb.
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_bomb" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_bomb</a>
Which might be cool... if it benefits the gameplay ofc.
I'd hazard a guess that a siege cannon is now soley used as a front line, er, well, siege weapon, due to it being on tracks and controlled by the commander - I bet you can't just build one near a hive.
No, for ninja attacks you want something that could be carried into the hive by a single marine - say like a suitcase sized neutron bomb <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Portability should be a key factor. Perhaps ping the bomb to trigger a countdown sequence?
I like the Idea of the Neutrino-Suitcase, but does such a thing hurt only Lifeforms or is it killing Powerlines, too?
If so, it should kill Nanos and Bacteria, sending out a growing Sphere of Sparks (failing Nanos) through every Room affected, shutting down it's Systems unless the Creep or Nanos can get in there again.
I like the idea of a marine squad having to defend and slowly walk a Nuke into a hive to use it. Would kind of be like the mobile siege convoy.
I more like the idea of this being used to destroy areas/make areas unusable for a certain amount of time.
Maybe the Nuke could be... a timed upgrade, kind of like super weapons in Command and Conquer; you only have them when you upgrade to the highest level, they only work when you meet a certain list of requirements, and you can only use them when a timer has run out, say... 15 minutes from build. Timer is reset if you lose any of the requirements, incapacitating the nuke and making it worthless. In other words, the Nuke is another building you build in your spawn, kind of like a siege cannon that can reach anywhere. If this were the case though, i think the damage would have to be something like this:
Hives take 80% damage over 5 seconds (I say this because i think the idea of a one shot hive is a little op. Maybe you use your nuke, then the rines rush in and finish off the job.
All lifeforms are infected withing x range of explosion.
All other non mechanical buildings also take 80% damage.
Maybe this superweapon could be more of a... lets say... biological weapon. When used, all infected lifeforms lose health at a rate of... 25% per second for 5 seconds, dealing 125% of their full hp in damage, meaning if you don't recieve heals you die also leaving a small amount of time for a few more aliens/marines to be killed by players. If you are infected and reach 0 hp you explode dealing 100 damage to anything around you. If you have life, you live. The infected hive is partially debilitated when infected, meaning no heals, although it can still spawn aliens.
Now wouldn't that make things interesting? This would make for some very interesting games. This effect is not limited to the hive, meaning it can be used anywhere on the map. I think the area of effect would need to be pretty huge also, because i think it would be unfair for aliens if they didn't have a little bit of time to respawn.
Now, what do the aliens get? Hahahaha. 2000hp battle gorges kgo!
commander pays and researches nuke, the nuke is loaded by marines onto the rail cart, marines drive the nuke in - and after a short guarding period - KABOOM, hive room cleared.
"its the only way to be sure" <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
once the marine throws the batton, the batton starts pinging and lighting up, sequelling (think air raid siren) like crazy to tell everyone in the game to clear the area - this would say a 10 - 20 - 30 even? second count down - during this time, marines should clear the area, but not too far, as a clever skulk or lerk could quickley pick up this beacon batton and put into an area where the damage would be insignificant, or into a marine controlled territory for a bit of payback.
the commander would of course be able to cancel the teleport and detonation, however the beacon batton and res used to buy it would be gone.\
another idea would be similar as above, but a marine would use a targeting laser to paint the target - (*cough starcraft terrran ghosts)
But it's Range has to be limited, because it could be used to destroy a well build Hive Defense then, and that's the Siege's Job imo.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now wouldn't that make things interesting?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, because it would be spamed without remorse since Aliens are fully hit by it and Marine's won't care the least since their Buildings are immune to it and Marines spawn for free.
Unspammable with a 45 minute timer.
And thats 45 minutes from being built, so probably an hour into the game before you can even use it. And once you used it, another 45 minutes before you can use it again. Very much something that gets things moving.
And thats 45 minutes from being built, so probably an hour into the game before you can even use it. And once you used it, another 45 minutes before you can use it again. Very much something that gets things moving.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
45minutes? the average round will probably be 10 -15 minutes just liek ns1
But really? I hope average round times aren't that short <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> I'm quite a fan of long games.
But really? I hope average round times aren't that short <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> I'm quite a fan of long games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well im just assuming - you know like starcract can take 1 hour to play a round, but most "leet" players will take advantage of their units and win in 5-10 minutes , that kind of thing
[Joke]: Egg-nukes spitting out of the gorges mouth? Excellent!
Heh, I think this may be over-exaggerating things a bit <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Sure, competitive games may be different, but I'd like to think that the average NS game goes for <i>at least</i> half an hour.
If both teams are as competent, then these late game techs really should come into play to fire up the heavy hitting gameplay that decides the battle.
I'm not sure what I think about nukes, but if they were in, I know people have mentioned they shouldn't be able to be used on an active hive, but why not?
Best reason I can come up with, is because they need a line of sight laser pointer to target, and a very long lock-time, maybe even like 4-5 minutes, to give ample time for a response. So it makes sense that they can be used to shut down a yet-to-be-built hive, but not an existing one.
On the other hand, i am very interested in thinking up idea about the alien super power (i call it that because thats what a nuke sounds like to me)
Everytime i try to think of one for the aliens, i see them all charging in, killing the rine spawners and gg.
Gonna be epic hard to balance.
Ooooh. Maybe global invisibility for 20 seconds?
First, some design points/comments.
- Currently we know in NS2 theres 2 or 3 ways of attacking a hive - straight forward assault by marines (LA/LMG/shotties scaling up to HA/HMG/GLS or whatever equipment is present in NS2) or attack by siege gun(s) from a remote marine emplacement (again scaling from marines guarding a siege gun to a full turret farm). If JPs are in then JP equipped HMG/GLs 'going the back way' to bypass alien defenses are another possibilty. I'd break that down into assault/siege/stealth ways of killing a hive, I can't think of any different classification of attack.
- That established, nukes need to be a viable alternative to those methods in one of those catergories. It needs to kill the hive precisely as an assault or a siege would. Or like, why bother when I can just use those resources to kill it with marines/siege ?
So that all said and as I alluded to before..a nuke would be best employed, design wise, as the ultimate stealth/ninja weapon to kill a hive, the step-up from JP HMG/GLs. Theres no other niche it fits into that isn't already covered.
A nuke needs to be able to be carried and armed by one JP marine and one shots a hive if it explodes.
How long it takes to explode, resource cost, whether a marine can use a weapon whilst carrying/having armed it are all balance factors I can't really call without having played NS2. I would say aliens need some kind of warning when a nuke has been planted in order to be able to react to it otherwise its a bit harsh and need to be able to stop the explosion somehow...my favourite would be having to kill the marine who planted it. Dramatic tension FTW <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
And yeah, make it a neutron bomb or something <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
"I'LL SEE YOU IN HELL YOU !@#@$!%! aliens" BOOM. It should definitely be something you don't see happen very often though. Make it cost a lot of $$$ to research, and have all the station lights go into 'emergency' mode so the pressure is on aliens to finish off marine start before it detonates killing everybody. If they don't succeed:
1) The timer hits 0. A large white flash fills everybody's screen.
2) A shockwave destroys all map structures, only injured marines/aliens are left.
3) Then a fireball flows out from marine start and into every room until everybody is dead.
4) The last marine/alien that is able to stay alive the longest wins the round for their team.
Although if it was THAT cool, I don't think anybody would want to stop it from going off lol.