I like the idea of making area's of the map inaccessible but surley it would be easier for the marines to weld the doors to a section of space station or ship shut creating a contained space, and then using regular explosives to breach the hull. This would vent the atmosphere and probably suck anything in the area into space which could be cool.
As a way for the Khara to counter this I would suggest letting them evolve the ability to survive vacum, it wouldn't necessarily save any that were in the area when the hull was breached but it could allow them to (eventually) move through the area again and possibly start inhabiting it again.
If marines were still going to have heavy armour I would suggest also allowing these marines to pass the area. As soon as someone breaches the sealed area though the rest of the map would suddenly vent into space so maybee that is not so workable afterall as a game mechanic, but it sounds a lot of fun <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
You could of course have air locks in certain parts of the map (and certainly for a space station/ship this would be a more accurate representation. You could also have the marines search for a weak point on the hull or have to work at creating a weak point before they could do this kind of damage.
@Aeroripper: Hmm making all the read out's through the structure put up a ***SELF DISTRUCT IN T MINUS 10 MINS *** silent countdown would be a good global indicator this is what the marines have done. In a ship / station you could say it was the structures built in self distruct.
I would at this point have it activate the escape pods on said station/ship and whoever gets the most out alive wins the round XD
Best idea I have seen for an actual nuke yet though, generally they don't appeal. Maybee if rather than having it player controlled if a stalemate evolves in the game have exactly the above happen but have the server decide the games gone on too long and that the Khara have caused too much structural damage for the station/ship whatever to survive...
Sorry but if I recall correctly, the TSA are deployed inside those spaceships that way so that they can get rid of the infastation and return the spaceship to the rightful owner.
That was justified based on the huge impact of the loss of the refered spaceship(s) to the fragile human economy, which would most likely contribute to a wide-open war between menkind.
My point is... using nukes that detonate half the ship or contaminates the enviroment with radiation shouldn´t be implemented at all, based on the storyline created for NS1.
Of course if in NS2 we´d be losing to the Kharaa, it is possible for humans to begin employing some havier apparel, such as nukes, but if that was the case humans should blow up the entire ship from the beggining.
That said, nukes as we know (uranium, etc) shouldn´t be implemented. Instead, we should create biohardous armament that affect the Kharaa only. They could prevent DI from growing in a room (as suggested previously) or damaging lifeforms and structures in an AOE (obvious).
This posts point is that the so called nukes shouldn´t have a impact/explosion damage, nor radiation output, but instead have a biologic agent that inflicts a period of damage, which could be countered by gorges and other healing methods, providing a reasonable solution as far as storyline/realism/game balance goes.
This could be used before striking a hive, weakening their defenses, or at MS, when a full scale alien attack is taking place and we want them to retreat, or even in a combat zone, turning the tides of the battle towards the marines. Everything balanced, of course.
I am Member of the Faction of Gamers that believes Gameplay is more important than reality. If a Superweapon like a Hazardous Agent is to be employed, Marines have to take Damage as well <b>and</b> the Kharaa need to be able to move the Area of Effect before the Effect is activated, simply to not have every Game end with Biological Agent sprayed everywhere.
After all, it'd end like the Rat, Mosquito or Bacterial Population in Certain Areas where a hazardous Amount of Toxics and Poisons has been employed, Immunity build up.
That's why Hospitals have sometimes Problems with Flesh eating Germs: Overuse of Penicillin, resulting in exchange of RNA and borrowing Immunities to other harmfull Organisms.
<!--quoteo(post=1709879:date=Jun 3 2009, 01:07 PM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Jun 3 2009, 01:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1709879"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a Superweapon like a Hazardous Agent is to be employed, Marines have to take Damage as well <b>and</b> the Kharaa need to be able to move the Area of Effect before the Effect is activated, simply to not have every Game end with Biological Agent sprayed everywhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, that is a possibility aswell, making these tactical biological deployments capable of dispersing both aliens and rines from an area of effect. I can imagine this agent being deployed through the ventilation networks, perhaps available in the areas not contaminated with DI, under control of the marine commander and with the ventilation system working (RT powering up the room?). Since we´ve seen this possibility in the teaser, the vents in the room where the agent is being deployed can release some yellow/green vapors, indicating the room is getting biologicaly attacked by the comm.
i like the idea of the bomb unpowering a certain area of effect, but i also like the scenario of the bomb as an exit-option. just like in that star trek movie. can't tell which one it was. i think first contact. the marines only should be able to use it in a very late game after a lot research and spending res. usually (in ns 1) the aliens invaded the rines. so they should have to finish their invasion before the enemy gets able to blow up the hole thing.
as an equivalent for the aliens i could imagine a weapon that poweres off the cc for an amount of X seconds. that would enable the aliens to rush either chokepoints on the map or even the base.
This is why i suggested that the nuke be changed to a biological weapon. The aliens could still explode, but the spaceship (if we were being all RP about it) wouldn't take damage. Plus, if the marines are looking to take over the space ship again, a biological weapon that flows through the aliens and wipes them out makes more sense? No huge explosions means less chance of marine casualties?
Kinda like the marines fly up to the infected ship, drop off their biological weapon, chuck on the tv, come back in a few hours and whammo. A whole lot of dead aliens, with no physical damage to the spaceship, all in an afternoon, of course minus the part about the marines flying up to the ship of course, because their already on it.
If it's area denial we want to the nuke to be then why not simply have it remove a large radius of DI? Something like a incindiary bomb that sends out a shockwave thats effective against DI. We don't quite know what the implications of DI are right now so it might be anything from a minor to a huge impact on gameplay but it's a thought to keep in the back of our head. If alien buildings have to be built on infestation this could do anything from weakening the structures that are built on the just blow up DI, to fully destroying them.
Personally i dislike the idea of having a nuke so powerfull it could blow up a hive. Destroying a hive should be a struggle. Make the nuke something to ease that struggle, not something that removes the struggle, and it will become a worthwile gameplay mechanic.
Also if we believe the concept for the siege gun to be correct they will be mobile. Which means we have plenty of mobile anti structure capabillity on marine side already. We don't really need a nuke to add to that which is the reason i would like to see the nuke in a different role.
<!--quoteo(post=1710078:date=Jun 4 2009, 08:00 AM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Jun 4 2009, 08:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1710078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Forget it. No "I WIN!" Buttons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It´s not a "I WIN!" Button, but a tactical/strategical assistance from the comm. Doesn´t mean you research the whole round, spend 150 res and BOOM! every alien is dead. These ideas (some of them) are trying to find a smaller role of nukes to be implemented somehow, be assisting in combat, area denial or any other siderole.
Think of it as a way for the comm to assist directly in combat by not just spamming medpacks everywhere...
I think Nukes could be implemented as something you have to bring manually. So for example a marine sneaks into the hive, plants and arms the nuke. If aliens don't discover it, the hive will die, if they discover it, they can destroy it. Then just adjust cost and health for balance. And make awesome explosion animation, just shaking Everyone everywhere in the map, like maybe falling off.
Thats a baseless arguement, there are numerous ways of balancing it. Hell, the fact it'd be an enourmous res investment in just one marine is risky enough to make it part way balanced.
<!--quoteo(post=1713713:date=Jun 24 2009, 10:18 AM:name=ryknow69)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ryknow69 @ Jun 24 2009, 10:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713713"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes yes yes, lets allow the marines to ninja plant nuke...... Kill the aliens in one shot, yep..... Balance at it's best....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> On the contrary. Scouting is very important part of the game. If marines can sneak up a phase gate into the hive in NS1, aliens will lose the hive. And its not inbalanced at all.
Now while sudden sneak pg rushes are very fun, nukes are fun too. =)
Nukes sounds to me to be an incredibly overpowered weapon for humans. I'd only go for it if it were very difficult to pull off and would require a not-so-cheap upgrade on the commander's part to simply be ABLE to product a nuke. In this sense it'd be more of a end of game weapon that marines would use simply because it's too difficult to shoot the hive down.
1) The nuke would destroy <b>*everything*</b> in range with the exception of the comm chair and the hive (though it would drop by at least half). 2) Only one nuke could be made and activated at any given time (no triple nukes). 3) No after-effects.
So in that it'd work a lot like a siege. You'd have to push your team close enough to the hive and 'arm' the nuke dropped by the commander (though it should take some time to build.. on the order of the time it takes to build a commander chair if not more without the ability to 'stack' builders). The marines to be completely successful would not only have to activate it, but would abandon the area to have the comm detonate it as to not kill the marines who built it, though the risk is that the aliens could rush in and destroy it before it's activated. Probably result in a lot of standoffish fights between one marine who stays behind to be sacrificed while defending the bomb while the others take cover (ah fun times). Though if it works, you've killed all your resistance to the hive and the rest of your marines can storm in and finish it off with little difficulty.
I just realized something, we always thought of nukes and explosives in general as weapons that will destroy buildings and units... Why don't we make the nuke actually destroy the map itself, wouldn't that be awesome !! You plant a nuke somewhere on the map, arm it, blow it and that part of the map is inaccessible anymore (plus this is realistic). The developers already mentioned something about the maps basically being a series of rooms with weldable doors and stuff, so to simulate a part of the map rendered inaccessible we can simply force the doors of that part of the map to be sealed shut forever; or if no doors are available we can block the paths with debris from the destruction of the map (ceiling fell and blocked hallway). See below picture for example.
The doors of this orange area will be sealed shut. Notice how even though this part of the map is no longer accessible, it is still possible to reach the other rooms without going through this one. Now for this to work properly it will require the Nuke to be planted inside a room and not in the hallways, to accomplish this we can simply increase the build radius of the Nuke to something that doesn't fit inside hallways. Also note that no matter which room in the map is rendered inaccessible all the other rooms can still be accessed due to the design of the map. <a href="http://img524.imageshack.us/i/ns2powergridoverview.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/8739/ns2powergridoverview.th.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
Unfortunately with that idea, you'd then NEED to ensure there was a way around at all times, and only allow certain areas to be sealed in such a way...
Especially if the map has a central choke point that interconnects various areas.
<!--quoteo(post=1714070:date=Jun 26 2009, 12:22 AM:name=Daworm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daworm @ Jun 26 2009, 12:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1714070"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unfortunately with that idea, you'd then NEED to ensure there was a way around at all times, and only allow certain areas to be sealed in such a way...
Especially if the map has a central choke point that interconnects various areas.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
indeed, this would be something for the map makers to handle. Unless you destroy the central choke point but the map still has vent and small hallways that player can take to reach other areas, that's just an idea. But then again, this depends on the design of the map
it would give marines way too much map-control-possibilities. A nuke to kill a hive would be ok. But the ability to take out a complete room from the map - is way too mighty. It is hardenough to balance a map normally - but with the factor of every room eventually becoming sealed of? no way.
It would give rines the possibility to destroy one of the two entrances to marine start for example. that would be really powerful.
Ye, unbreakably defended routes are bad in general, everything should be conquarable for some cost.
I'm still not confident that a nuke is going to work in NS gameplay. It's supposed to be devastating I guess, but then again marines need res for guns and UPGs to keep the aliens at bay while they are taking the nuke to the target. At that point I see very little reason to get the nuke in the first place as it's just cheaper to upgrade the guns and deal the damage with them.
So all that's left is some sneaky nuking, but I don't think it has got that much point in it. A feature that only works if the enemy plays stupid doesn't sound that optimal to me.
The new res model might give some options for the nuke though. If the firepower comes from the individual res pools and the nuke from the comm pool, it might actually have an opening in the game logic.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So all that's left is some sneaky nuking, but I don't think it has got that much point in it. A feature that only works if the enemy plays stupid doesn't sound that optimal to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well not necessarily. Supreme Commander has nukes. If the enemy plays stupid and forgots to build anti-nuke, its a day in the park.
But also I don't think nukes would be that meaningful, just fun. They would be like catpacks currently.
If the commander could explode them (after being built of course) they might be used tactically, for example hidden behind a corner for onos. Similarly they could be used for defense when sieging a hive. Then for example, an onos could kill it in 5s but commander could explode it in 3s or something.
<!--quoteo(post=1714249:date=Jun 27 2009, 12:13 AM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Jun 27 2009, 12:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1714249"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well not necessarily. Supreme Commander has nukes. If the enemy plays stupid and forgots to build anti-nuke, its a day in the park.
But also I don't think nukes would be that meaningful, just fun. They would be like catpacks currently.
If the commander could explode them (after being built of course) they might be used tactically, for example hidden behind a corner for onos. Similarly they could be used for defense when sieging a hive. Then for example, an onos could kill it in 5s but commander could explode it in 3s or something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, maybe it can be worked around. Nuke isn't something that sounds like a lifeform killer though. Maybe a tactical explosive or something, but the nuke seems quite misleading if it's just a booby trap for onoses.
... And don't get me started with the catpack potential :)
Comments
As a way for the Khara to counter this I would suggest letting them evolve the ability to survive vacum, it wouldn't necessarily save any that were in the area when the hull was breached but it could allow them to (eventually) move through the area again and possibly start inhabiting it again.
If marines were still going to have heavy armour I would suggest also allowing these marines to pass the area. As soon as someone breaches the sealed area though the rest of the map would suddenly vent into space so maybee that is not so workable afterall as a game mechanic, but it sounds a lot of fun <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
You could of course have air locks in certain parts of the map (and certainly for a space station/ship this would be a more accurate representation. You could also have the marines search for a weak point on the hull or have to work at creating a weak point before they could do this kind of damage.
I would at this point have it activate the escape pods on said station/ship and whoever gets the most out alive wins the round XD
Best idea I have seen for an actual nuke yet though, generally they don't appeal. Maybee if rather than having it player controlled if a stalemate evolves in the game have exactly the above happen but have the server decide the games gone on too long and that the Khara have caused too much structural damage for the station/ship whatever to survive...
That was justified based on the huge impact of the loss of the refered spaceship(s) to the fragile human economy, which would most likely contribute to a wide-open war between menkind.
My point is... using nukes that detonate half the ship or contaminates the enviroment with radiation shouldn´t be implemented at all, based on the storyline created for NS1.
Of course if in NS2 we´d be losing to the Kharaa, it is possible for humans to begin employing some havier apparel, such as nukes, but if that was the case humans should blow up the entire ship from the beggining.
That said, nukes as we know (uranium, etc) shouldn´t be implemented. Instead, we should create biohardous armament that affect the Kharaa only. They could prevent DI from growing in a room (as suggested previously) or damaging lifeforms and structures in an AOE (obvious).
This posts point is that the so called nukes shouldn´t have a impact/explosion damage, nor radiation output, but instead have a biologic agent that inflicts a period of damage, which could be countered by gorges and other healing methods, providing a reasonable solution as far as storyline/realism/game balance goes.
This could be used before striking a hive, weakening their defenses, or at MS, when a full scale alien attack is taking place and we want them to retreat, or even in a combat zone, turning the tides of the battle towards the marines. Everything balanced, of course.
My 2 cents....
[edit] adding some more info.
If a Superweapon like a Hazardous Agent is to be employed, Marines have to take Damage as well <b>and</b> the Kharaa need to be able to move the Area of Effect before the Effect is activated, simply to not have every Game end with Biological Agent sprayed everywhere.
After all, it'd end like the Rat, Mosquito or Bacterial Population in Certain Areas where a hazardous Amount of Toxics and Poisons has been employed, Immunity build up.
That's why Hospitals have sometimes Problems with Flesh eating Germs: Overuse of Penicillin, resulting in exchange of RNA and borrowing Immunities to other harmfull Organisms.
Agreed, that is a possibility aswell, making these tactical biological deployments capable of dispersing both aliens and rines from an area of effect.
I can imagine this agent being deployed through the ventilation networks, perhaps available in the areas not contaminated with DI, under control of the marine commander and with the ventilation system working (RT powering up the room?).
Since we´ve seen this possibility in the teaser, the vents in the room where the agent is being deployed can release some yellow/green vapors, indicating the room is getting biologicaly attacked by the comm.
as an equivalent for the aliens i could imagine a weapon that poweres off the cc for an amount of X seconds. that would enable the aliens to rush either chokepoints on the map or even the base.
Kinda like the marines fly up to the infected ship, drop off their biological weapon, chuck on the tv, come back in a few hours and whammo. A whole lot of dead aliens, with no physical damage to the spaceship, all in an afternoon, of course minus the part about the marines flying up to the ship of course, because their already on it.
Personally i dislike the idea of having a nuke so powerfull it could blow up a hive. Destroying a hive should be a struggle. Make the nuke something to ease that struggle, not something that removes the struggle, and it will become a worthwile gameplay mechanic.
Also if we believe the concept for the siege gun to be correct they will be mobile. Which means we have plenty of mobile anti structure capabillity on marine side already. We don't really need a nuke to add to that which is the reason i would like to see the nuke in a different role.
If we imagine the aliens have different immune defense compared to humans.
TBC-BOMBZ AGAINST TEH ALIENZ!
It´s not a "I WIN!" Button, but a tactical/strategical assistance from the comm. Doesn´t mean you research the whole round, spend 150 res and BOOM! every alien is dead.
These ideas (some of them) are trying to find a smaller role of nukes to be implemented somehow, be assisting in combat, area denial or any other siderole.
Think of it as a way for the comm to assist directly in combat by not just spamming medpacks everywhere...
If it realy will have the Functions advertised here you'd have to pay over 9000 Res and Welder it for two Hours non-stop to deploy...
Nuke=/=Plausible
On the contrary. Scouting is very important part of the game. If marines can sneak up a phase gate into the hive in NS1, aliens will lose the hive. And its not inbalanced at all.
Now while sudden sneak pg rushes are very fun, nukes are fun too. =)
1) The nuke would destroy <b>*everything*</b> in range with the exception of the comm chair and the hive (though it would drop by at least half).
2) Only one nuke could be made and activated at any given time (no triple nukes).
3) No after-effects.
So in that it'd work a lot like a siege. You'd have to push your team close enough to the hive and 'arm' the nuke dropped by the commander (though it should take some time to build.. on the order of the time it takes to build a commander chair if not more without the ability to 'stack' builders). The marines to be completely successful would not only have to activate it, but would abandon the area to have the comm detonate it as to not kill the marines who built it, though the risk is that the aliens could rush in and destroy it before it's activated. Probably result in a lot of standoffish fights between one marine who stays behind to be sacrificed while defending the bomb while the others take cover (ah fun times). Though if it works, you've killed all your resistance to the hive and the rest of your marines can storm in and finish it off with little difficulty.
Why don't we make the nuke actually destroy the map itself, wouldn't that be awesome !! You plant a nuke somewhere on the map, arm it, blow it and that part of the map is inaccessible anymore (plus this is realistic). The developers already mentioned something about the maps basically being a series of rooms with weldable doors and stuff, so to simulate a part of the map rendered inaccessible we can simply force the doors of that part of the map to be sealed shut forever; or if no doors are available we can block the paths with debris from the destruction of the map (ceiling fell and blocked hallway). See below picture for example.
The doors of this orange area will be sealed shut. Notice how even though this part of the map is no longer accessible, it is still possible to reach the other rooms without going through this one. Now for this to work properly it will require the Nuke to be planted inside a room and not in the hallways, to accomplish this we can simply increase the build radius of the Nuke to something that doesn't fit inside hallways. Also note that no matter which room in the map is rendered inaccessible all the other rooms can still be accessed due to the design of the map.
<a href="http://img524.imageshack.us/i/ns2powergridoverview.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/8739/ns2powergridoverview.th.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
Especially if the map has a central choke point that interconnects various areas.
Especially if the map has a central choke point that interconnects various areas.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
indeed, this would be something for the map makers to handle. Unless you destroy the central choke point but the map still has vent and small hallways that player can take to reach other areas, that's just an idea. But then again, this depends on the design of the map
I still don't like the Idea of tactical destruction or sealing off Rooms beyond locked Doors.
It would give rines the possibility to destroy one of the two entrances to marine start for example. that would be really powerful.
I'm still not confident that a nuke is going to work in NS gameplay. It's supposed to be devastating I guess, but then again marines need res for guns and UPGs to keep the aliens at bay while they are taking the nuke to the target. At that point I see very little reason to get the nuke in the first place as it's just cheaper to upgrade the guns and deal the damage with them.
So all that's left is some sneaky nuking, but I don't think it has got that much point in it. A feature that only works if the enemy plays stupid doesn't sound that optimal to me.
The new res model might give some options for the nuke though. If the firepower comes from the individual res pools and the nuke from the comm pool, it might actually have an opening in the game logic.
Well not necessarily. Supreme Commander has nukes. If the enemy plays stupid and forgots to build anti-nuke, its a day in the park.
But also I don't think nukes would be that meaningful, just fun. They would be like catpacks currently.
If the commander could explode them (after being built of course) they might be used tactically, for example hidden behind a corner for onos. Similarly they could be used for defense when sieging a hive. Then for example, an onos could kill it in 5s but commander could explode it in 3s or something.
But also I don't think nukes would be that meaningful, just fun. They would be like catpacks currently.
If the commander could explode them (after being built of course) they might be used tactically, for example hidden behind a corner for onos. Similarly they could be used for defense when sieging a hive. Then for example, an onos could kill it in 5s but commander could explode it in 3s or something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, maybe it can be worked around. Nuke isn't something that sounds like a lifeform killer though. Maybe a tactical explosive or something, but the nuke seems quite misleading if it's just a booby trap for onoses.
... And don't get me started with the catpack potential :)