<!--quoteo(post=1757964:date=Mar 7 2010, 10:54 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Mar 7 2010, 10:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757964"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not true. I'm a big fan of anything made by H&K, S&W, FNH, Benelli etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Guess what? We don't care.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've already asked that NS2 feature a revolver during a few occasions... maybe one that's loaded with 12 guage shotgun shells.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Forgive the devs. How dare they create weapons in their game without consulting you first.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The purpose of that post was to show that the devs have an almost unhealthy appreciation for German WW2 pistols.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again, we don't care. All we care about is that the guns look cool - and so far they do.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
edited March 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1757964:date=Mar 7 2010, 07:54 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Mar 7 2010, 07:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757964"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The purpose of that post was to show that the devs have an almost unhealthy appreciation for German WW2 pistols. :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see anything wrong with an appreciation for the engineering and design work behind German WW2 pistols. (Guns don't kill people, people kill people; and appreciating a gun which was used by the "evil" side does not necessitate idolizing or sympathizing with the goals of the "evil" people.)
<!--quoteo(post=1757964:date=Mar 7 2010, 07:54 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Mar 7 2010, 07:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757964"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(crap)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I guess I haven't been around long enough. I read about how much people hate you, and I finally see why. This post was completely useless. :[ Please reread you submissions and try to make them neutral. At least less ass-ly. <!--quoteo(post=1757966:date=Mar 7 2010, 08:13 PM:name=Warmonger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Warmonger @ Mar 7 2010, 08:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757966"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(many good points)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes.
On a side note, I think electric bayonets (tasers) would be a cool upgrade. Fixes the (40% slower than the knife) problem, and fits in any progress made with the now-scrapped taser.
18th century soldiers had an answer for seamless transition from ranged combat to melee. Why not space marines? :D
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=1757970:date=Mar 8 2010, 03:12 PM:name=n-s-a-c-c)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (n-s-a-c-c @ Mar 8 2010, 03:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757970"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i don't see why you didn't just stick with the knife<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> the reasoning has been mentioned several times - infact 1/2 of the latest front page posts explains it all.
<!--quoteo(post=1757788:date=Mar 7 2010, 05:52 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Mar 7 2010, 05:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757788"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The luger, in real life it is incredibly uncomfortable to hold (it's very awkward how thick the pistols-grip is... it's almost like a "noisy cricket" (movie reference, Men in Black), because of the super thin barrel attached to rest of this mess. Changing a magazine sucks because of the angle you must insert it. The trigger guard is tiny (so ya not designed for gloved hands), and the actual trigger pull, when squeezing the trigger to shoot, is like a half-inch of the worst trigger creep you can imagine. Actually pulling on the toggle-lock thing feels very very awkward, almost as if this gun was designed by a certifiable genius that wanted to make an overly complicated design that, due to the tight constraints, would fail if a little mud or sand got in. O and the front post sight stands out in photos, but actually try holding this gun and aiming down the rear sight and see what the intention was. Here's some airsoft version, but it shows you what aiming a luger is like (very primitive and inefficient when compared to present day hand guns)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
who cares if the luger is uncomforable. the pistol looks good and they only used the luger's mechanism
this is a game
the marine won't complain about the angle of the magazine
If I had to pick, I'd probably go with a poleaxe as my anti-alien melee weapon of choice, but as carrying those around would be slightly impractical, a handaxe is a nice compromise.
I also like how it suggests the TSA has actually been thinking about how silly it is to send marines against aliens who are made of claws and teeth with a piddly little knife.
Pistol is also nice and beefy, hopefully it gets a sound to match and a nice big muzzleflash. <!--quoteo(post=1757856:date=Mar 7 2010, 03:38 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Mar 7 2010, 03:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757856"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why? Why say this? I expected trying to justify NS2 universe on modern weaponry to come from certain *other* members, not from you guys.
If you wanted to put it in because it looks cool or w/e fine, but half the the weaponry in NS2 doesn't function "believably" - if you can make an LMG deploy out of a box, figuring out what to do with a spent casing is a nanite away.
Obviously I am not a fan of the luger design purely on the clash of aesthetics. There is a line between sci-future mechanical dirty-tech and polycarbonate WW2 Rube Goldberg machine. In my opinion, this pistol crossed it. However, I can see the slide blocking vision slightly when cocked up empty, which leads me to believe (hope) that perhaps it is more than just an aesthetic decision and perhaps the pistol-equivalent of muzzleflash?
As for the axe, I suppose I can only take solace in that it is single-bladed...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the idea is that shell ejection is cool and they wanted that as well, which is reasonable because it is kinda cool, the only think more cool than a gun with a beefy sound that ejects glowing bits of metal out the side and goes BOOM when you shoot it is if the bullet has a smoke trail and explodes when it hits things.
A bolter, in fact. Can we have a bolter? Or a bolt pistol? Rocket propelled explosive bullets are cool after all.
I'm down with shell ejection - they could have put an ejection port on the side or top of the gun.
What I'm getting at is that the justification given in the blog ("believable functionality") is a load of hooey. Either someone is pushing hard for a WW2 throwback or it was designed for gameplay reasons (such as I mention a muzzleflash equivalent). But to chose a firing mechanism of a Luger simply because they could only imagine two possibilities (that or slide action) shows an uncharacteristic lapse in creativity.
Well looking realistic does have its value, and the NS2 devs aren't gun engineers.
If I was to go about building a gun, I would copy an existing gun, because that would automatically give me a 'gun' feel to it, it would give it authenticity, believablity, and that is one of the few things reality can give you, if you copy an existing gun you will get one that feels real, and feeling real is important, even if it isn't real.
Designing a whole new mechanism is much harder than simply copying one from an existing gun, and having recognisable elements adds a lot to an object.
Take tanks for example, you could design a whole new track system, but even games that don't have conventional tracks always use the same track system, they might split them into pods and mount them on the side of the tank so they can tilt as in halo, or they might have the top exposed like the UT3 goliath, but it's the same track technology as real life.
All good designs have a basis in reality or are designed so that they could work in reality, it's only when you JUST copy from reality that it sucks, you should have original elements but you need real elements as well otherwise you lose the sense of the fantastic, it stops being 'reality only better', and turns into 'what the hell is this I don't even' very quickly.
<!--quoteo(post=1757967:date=Mar 7 2010, 11:25 PM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Psyke @ Mar 7 2010, 11:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see anything wrong with an appreciation for the engineering and design work behind German WW2 pistols. (Guns don't kill people, people kill people; and appreciating a gun which was used by the "evil" side does not necessitate idolizing or sympathizing with the goals of the "evil" people.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Updated my post with some new content on the bottom. There may be more German Nazi influence in this game upon further inspection.
<!--quoteo(post=1758000:date=Mar 8 2010, 03:50 AM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Mar 8 2010, 03:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758000"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm down with shell ejection - they could have put an ejection port on the side or top of the gun.
What I'm getting at is that the justification given in the blog ("believable functionality") is a load of hooey. Either someone is pushing hard for a WW2 throwback or it was designed for gameplay reasons (such as I mention a muzzleflash equivalent). <b><u>But to chose a firing mechanism of a Luger simply because they could only imagine two possibilities (that or slide action) shows an uncharacteristic lapse in creativity</u></b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Why not have nannites in the pistol that fabricate bullets on the fly with the pistol taking nannite goop as ammo. It would build the shell around the bullet and then consume that shell to make the next bullet and build the shell for that bullet from the goop in the ammo chamber.
The two positives from this would be
1) There would be no need to worry about shell eject mechanisms and 2) Gun nuts would go crazy.
In other words: Keep your concerns about gun mechanics out of my action shooter plz.
<!--quoteo(post=1758045:date=Mar 8 2010, 09:06 AM:name=Nasdero)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nasdero @ Mar 8 2010, 09:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758045"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->first of all ^^ hold on man , you talked about evil side ? my ancestors served in WWII as GERMANS and my grand grand dad hat a luger but he never fought for some "evil" ###### he fought because he would be killed by his own army if he doesnt, so much about evil lol (no offense)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The luger in my dads possession came from his father, who was 101st Airborne. I think it's safe to say the luger came from some dead German (no offense) :P
<!--quoteo(post=1758027:date=Mar 8 2010, 07:47 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Mar 8 2010, 07:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758027"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not have nannites in the pistol that fabricate bullets on the fly with the pistol taking nannite goop as ammo. It would build the shell around the bullet and then consume that shell to make the next bullet and build the shell for that bullet from the goop in the ammo chamber.
The two positives from this would be
1) There would be no need to worry about shell eject mechanisms and 2) Gun nuts would go crazy.
In other words: Keep your concerns about gun mechanics out of my action shooter plz.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I completely agree that realism, with reference to what is the most appropriate gun action, was 100% not needed. The NS2 pistol could have been shooting caseless (futuristic like the Aliens Pulse Rifle) ammo, and therefore just have some internal moving slide you NEVER see, and NO EJECTING SHELLS! There problem solved and it doesn't matter where you slap a ammo readout. It's very obvious they intentionally went for that German pistol look...
You're putting waay too much thought into this. It's a pistol. It shoots bullets, it looks cool. It's enough to satisfy most fans. This isn't Battlefield.
And the TSA symbol is obviously inspired by the SAS badge. Just turn the wings into a gun and the motto banner into 6 downward stripes, hey look, the acronyms even have THREE LETTERS each. Wow.
<!--quoteo(post=1757967:date=Mar 8 2010, 05:25 AM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Psyke @ Mar 8 2010, 05:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757967"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see anything wrong with an appreciation for the engineering and design work behind German WW2 pistols. (Guns don't kill people, people kill people; and appreciating a gun which was used by the "evil" side does not necessitate idolizing or sympathizing with the goals of the "evil" people.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
first of all ^^ hold on man , you talked about evil side ? my ancestors served in WWII as GERMANS and my grand grand dad hat a luger but he never fought for some "evil" ###### he fought because he would be killed by his own army if he doesnt, so much about evil lol (no offense)
2. i like the pistol basics BUT, i looks to heavy / bulky (just make it 5mm thinner) and the ejection of the bullet that makes it look like a luger is maybe unique maybe many people like it, but its not very efficient and usefull from a practical point of view... those open mechanical parts get dirty so freaking fast if you dont clean it in battle it wont fire after 4 clips... believe me
3. the axe is a mhhh lets say strange idea, nice to cut down alien structures thats for sure... but what is the nature of an axe and why is a knife maybe still more usefull ?? ill tell you :
an axe is meant to chop things (like wood or bones for example), but its only effective if you really put a lot of your physical power in the CHOP because the blade is long and has much surface that needs to penetrade the target.
a knife, with a knife you can not do the damage you can do with an axe thats sure... but thats not the way a knife is used to be a knife could be deadly without a hell lot of strengh, it does also have a long blade but it has a head witch is not for cutting, its for stabbing and while you chop that fade twice and he has 2 big bleeding wounds on his chest, i stabed him maybe 12 to 15 times all over his chest, and i stabed deep cuz i dont need that power with a knife to dig deep in his flesh ^^
thats just my opinion if you dont care i dont care ^^
ps. if you really take an axe take the curvey one plz
<!--quoteo(post=1758036:date=Mar 8 2010, 08:12 AM:name=Fortune)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fortune @ Mar 8 2010, 08:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->FocusedWolf, you've got it completely wrong. Obviously these are all inspired by the SAS...
And the TSA symbol is obviously inspired by the SAS badge. Just turn the wings into a gun and the motto banner into 6 downward stripes, hey look, the acronyms even have THREE LETTERS each. Wow.
Mmmm delicious meaningless symbolism, coincidence and jumping to far reaching conclusions. Completely stupid.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I appreciate your alternate explanation for the black uniform and the name + symbol of the TSA. I really hope this is where the inspiration came from. I assume you agree with my analysis of the pistol (plus all choices in that pistol concept voting thing we did a long time go), and i'm only "completely wrong" regarding the uniform + TSA symbol?
The only thing "completely stupid" is to believe your explanation or my explanation (regarding the TSA symbol and or the black uniform) is 100% the truth at this point in time. Its simply too much of an assumption to see your version as the whole truth vs mine, given the scope of the irrefutable German pistols influence (not only in the NS2 pistol, but every concept art variation!). Maybe the devs can explain the symbolism of NS2. I don't believe they're being "original" with that logo (which dates back to NS1 which featured the LMG, obviously inspired by various <b><u>WW2</u></b> British submachine guns), now after their "original" work regarding the folding axe. They could at least say the Gerber "Kick Axe" is what they un-originally copied? pirated? stole? And they only revealed the luger, because only a complete ###### would not recognize it came from a luger, but the Walther P38's influence is not so much explained... regarding the NS2 P37 9mm pistol... Yaa.
<!--quoteo(post=1757709:date=Mar 7 2010, 12:20 AM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (schkorpio @ Mar 7 2010, 12:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757709"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->to all of the people that always say its a downgrade in marine tech when they see ns2 stuff - think about it this way - its an upgrade to the game play :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Who is actually bothered by this? We could just say that it's a chronological prequel. We really do need to think the gameplay because NS1 is unbalanced in many ways. NS2 is looking balanced since it has commanders on both sides and no bunnyhopping as far as I know.
<!--quoteo(post=1757964:date=Mar 8 2010, 05:54 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Mar 8 2010, 05:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757964"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The purpose of that post was to show that the devs have an almost unhealthy appreciation for German WW2 pistols. :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why is this a bad thing? The Space Luger looks cool. I'm sure we all will be happy pistol whipping aliens with it.
<!--quoteo(post=1758061:date=Mar 8 2010, 07:35 PM:name=KonserniJohtaja)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KonserniJohtaja @ Mar 8 2010, 07:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758061"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Who is actually bothered by this? We could just say that it's a chronological prequel. We really do need to think the gameplay because NS1 is unbalanced in many ways. NS2 is looking balanced since it has commanders on both sides and no bunnyhopping as far as I know.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm afraid you have no idea what you are talking about.
<!--quoteo(post=1758027:date=Mar 8 2010, 12:47 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Mar 8 2010, 12:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758027"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not have nannites in the pistol that fabricate bullets on the fly with the pistol taking nannite goop as ammo. It would build the shell around the bullet and then consume that shell to make the next bullet and build the shell for that bullet from the goop in the ammo chamber.
The two positives from this would be
1) There would be no need to worry about shell eject mechanisms and 2) Gun nuts would go crazy.
In other words: Keep your concerns about gun mechanics out of my action shooter plz.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because it makes it look like a gun.
If you remove major gun-like qualities from it you turn it into the things from mass effect which are incredibly forgettable and not exactly thrilling to use. They function nicely but sound and look pretty crap.
Whereas rough beefy mechanical stuff is very NS, it all moves and shows the internal workings when you <i>could</i> just have it be a solid block, this is generally good because solid blocks are not very interesting to look at, whereas things that have lots of moving parts are more visually appealing.
It's a bit like warhammer 40k in that respect, the space marines are characterised by every piece of technology being based off a chainsaw and making a chainsaw noise when you use it. Tanks, machineguns, swords, everything goes ARRRRGGGGGHHHHH when you use it and has lots of moving metal bits. NS is kinda like that, having things that don't show the workings would be kind of like giving a space marine an eldar shuriken pistol, it wouldn't fit that well.
The lever looks like it's built out of the same kind of stuff as most of the structures, it's really a rather good stylistic choice to incorporate that into the gun somehow as well.
@FocusedWolf German Nazi influence? Oh, come on, don't you have anything better to do than trying to search Nazi and WW2 references in everything in this game? And what if they have Nazi and WW2 influences? It's still a great game, and nobody cares about it.
<!--quoteo(post=1758054:date=Mar 8 2010, 02:48 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Mar 8 2010, 02:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I appreciate your alternate explanation for the black uniform and the name + symbol of the TSA. I really hope this is where the inspiration came from. I assume you agree with my analysis of the pistol (plus all choices in that pistol concept voting thing we did a long time go), and i'm only "completely wrong" regarding the uniform + TSA symbol?
The only thing "completely stupid" is to believe your explanation or my explanation (regarding the TSA symbol and or the black uniform) is 100% the truth at this point in time. Its simply too much of an assumption to see your version as the whole truth vs mine, given the scope of the irrefutable German pistols influence (not only in the NS2 pistol, but every concept art variation!). Maybe the devs can explain the symbolism of NS2. I don't believe they're being "original" with that logo (which dates back to NS1 which featured the LMG, obviously inspired by various <b><u>WW2</u></b> British submachine guns), now after their "original" work regarding the folding axe. They could at least say the Gerber "Kick Axe" is what they un-originally copied? pirated? stole? And they only revealed the luger, because only a complete ###### would not recognize it came from a luger, but the Walther P38's influence is not so much explained... regarding the NS2 P37 9mm pistol... Yaa.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually I was just being sarcastic. As an artist myself, when I make things a whole heap of stuff can influence my artistic direction, seriously, things I wouldn't be able to name but at some point in my life stuck in the dark recesses of my mind.
Sometimes when I've designed sci fi weaponry for example, I usually look at a whole bunch of guns, with something general in mind and pretty much most of the time I'll go for whatever looks cool and functional, from Magnums to Famases, I even designed a pistol based on the Mauser once because I love it's overall design and shape. It's distinct. Same with uniforms and such, I've had a few black elite type suits because to the general masses black usually = 'special forces/highly trained/the elite', which isn't far from reality when you look at groups such as the SAS, SWAT, Spetsnaz, SS, 'secret agents' etc. Black is a shade you simply don't argue with because it's all powerful and all consuming.
I think the pistol is cool, it wouldn't be my first choice because you're right in that it's an old mechanism, but it's not as simple as saying nanites do all the work either, that's more ridiculous than the luger lever, this isn't Star Trek after all, NS2 is industrial sci fi, bulky, nanites work for large structures and making weaponry inside containers but not making bullets in a small gun, except maybe to the very rich.
I agree that yes, the pistol has a lot of similarities to a luger but really it kinda ends there. If you start thinking the whole of NS2's design was influenced by nazis, sure you'll see it but it isn't real, it's just a coincidence at best. Also how do you make the leap that luger = nazi? Switzerland adopted the gun in 1900, 8 years before Germany and a year after Hitler was born.
If I had a go at designing the pistol, I probably would have done it a lot different, but as it is it works and it looks cool, you'll hardly notice the features in game.
<!--quoteo(post=1758000:date=Mar 8 2010, 03:50 AM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Mar 8 2010, 03:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758000"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm down with shell ejection - they could have put an ejection port on the side or top of the gun.
What I'm getting at is that the justification given in the blog ("believable functionality") is a load of hooey. Either someone is pushing hard for a WW2 throwback or it was designed for gameplay reasons (such as I mention a muzzleflash equivalent). But to chose a firing mechanism of a Luger simply because they could only imagine two possibilities (that or slide action) shows an uncharacteristic lapse in creativity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How does simply narrowing down your available options show a lapse in creativity?
<!--quoteo(post=1758108:date=Mar 8 2010, 12:25 PM:name=Donner & Blitzen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Donner & Blitzen @ Mar 8 2010, 12:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758108"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How does simply narrowing down your available options show a lapse in creativity?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Narrowing down is fine and necessary. But if you're creating aesthetics for a dirty-tech sci-fi FPS and your final solution for "believability" is narrowed down to a Luger, then it's time you either admit you have a penchant in seeing a Luger in the game or a serious restriction on your imagination.
You're forgiven for borrowing from <i>common</i> elements; as noted by others: you need a gun to look like a gun. But in the event that you realize you're going to have to deviate from a standard pistol design, here's your chance to be creative. You can modify how slide-action works, or have the shells ejected from a static port on the side, or better still, do away with the shells as they combine with nanites to absorb excess heat. But instead you say "hey, lets borrow from an obscure WW2 design" when you have a <b>multitude</b> of more aesthetically and genre-pleasing solutions at your fingertips.
<!--quoteo(post=1758116:date=Mar 8 2010, 12:51 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Mar 8 2010, 12:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758116"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But instead you say "hey, lets borrow from an obscure WW2 design" when you have a <b>multitude</b> of more aesthetically and genre-pleasing solutions at your fingertips.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's subjective. Maybe the other options they explored weren't very aesthetically pleasing, or didn't fit into their design constraints. Maybe their design constraints consist of mechanical plausibility + obscure familiarity. In any case, I don't see anything wrong with the justification for their design. The thing about art is that even the most objective descriptions are ultimately entirely subjective.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1757829:date=Mar 7 2010, 01:30 PM:name=Anthoni)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Anthoni @ Mar 7 2010, 01:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757829"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A Marine without a knife seems pretty weird. Yet it would be nice to keep that BA axe in there some how.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You inspired me :P
<!--quoteo(post=1758121:date=Mar 8 2010, 01:11 PM:name=Donner & Blitzen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Donner & Blitzen @ Mar 8 2010, 01:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758121"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's subjective. Maybe the other options they explored weren't very aesthetically pleasing, or didn't fit into their design constraints. Maybe their design constraints consist of mechanical plausibility + obscure familiarity. In any case, I don't see anything wrong with the justification for their design. The thing about art is that even the most objective descriptions are ultimately entirely subjective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I fully subject to the notion that it's possible only I find a Luger firing mechanism to be odd in an NS universe full of a variety of other non-standard firing mechanisms that could have been used to fit their design constraints (which I disagree includes "obscure" - nothing we've seen thus far in NS design is as obscure as a highly-specific WW2 reference).
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1758182:date=Mar 8 2010, 03:15 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Mar 8 2010, 03:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758182"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I mean no harm with this image, I just think your post comparing Nazi's with TSA was very entertaining FocusedWolf :D
Comments
Guess what? We don't care.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've already asked that NS2 feature a revolver during a few occasions... maybe one that's loaded with 12 guage shotgun shells.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Forgive the devs. How dare they create weapons in their game without consulting you first.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The purpose of that post was to show that the devs have an almost unhealthy appreciation for German WW2 pistols.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, we don't care. All we care about is that the guns look cool - and so far they do.
I don't see anything wrong with an appreciation for the engineering and design work behind German WW2 pistols. (Guns don't kill people, people kill people; and appreciating a gun which was used by the "evil" side does not necessitate idolizing or sympathizing with the goals of the "evil" people.)
I guess I haven't been around long enough. I read about how much people hate you, and I finally see why.
This post was completely useless. :[
Please reread you submissions and try to make them neutral. At least less ass-ly.
<!--quoteo(post=1757966:date=Mar 7 2010, 08:13 PM:name=Warmonger)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Warmonger @ Mar 7 2010, 08:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757966"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(many good points)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes.
On a side note, I think electric bayonets (tasers) would be a cool upgrade.
Fixes the (40% slower than the knife) problem, and fits in any progress made with the now-scrapped taser.
18th century soldiers had an answer for seamless transition from ranged combat to melee. Why not space marines? :D
only thing i dont really like about the pistol is the lever thing on top.
but good detail/work.
the reasoning has been mentioned several times - infact 1/2 of the latest front page posts explains it all.
and it all makes perfect sense :)
who cares if the luger is uncomforable. the pistol looks good and they only used the luger's mechanism
this is a game
the marine won't complain about the angle of the magazine
I really like the pistol and axe
I also like how it suggests the TSA has actually been thinking about how silly it is to send marines against aliens who are made of claws and teeth with a piddly little knife.
Pistol is also nice and beefy, hopefully it gets a sound to match and a nice big muzzleflash.
<!--quoteo(post=1757856:date=Mar 7 2010, 03:38 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Mar 7 2010, 03:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757856"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why? Why say this? I expected trying to justify NS2 universe on modern weaponry to come from certain *other* members, not from you guys.
If you wanted to put it in because it looks cool or w/e fine, but half the the weaponry in NS2 doesn't function "believably" - if you can make an LMG deploy out of a box, figuring out what to do with a spent casing is a nanite away.
Obviously I am not a fan of the luger design purely on the clash of aesthetics. There is a line between sci-future mechanical dirty-tech and polycarbonate WW2 Rube Goldberg machine. In my opinion, this pistol crossed it. However, I can see the slide blocking vision slightly when cocked up empty, which leads me to believe (hope) that perhaps it is more than just an aesthetic decision and perhaps the pistol-equivalent of muzzleflash?
As for the axe, I suppose I can only take solace in that it is single-bladed...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the idea is that shell ejection is cool and they wanted that as well, which is reasonable because it is kinda cool, the only think more cool than a gun with a beefy sound that ejects glowing bits of metal out the side and goes BOOM when you shoot it is if the bullet has a smoke trail and explodes when it hits things.
A bolter, in fact. Can we have a bolter? Or a bolt pistol? Rocket propelled explosive bullets are cool after all.
What I'm getting at is that the justification given in the blog ("believable functionality") is a load of hooey. Either someone is pushing hard for a WW2 throwback or it was designed for gameplay reasons (such as I mention a muzzleflash equivalent). But to chose a firing mechanism of a Luger simply because they could only imagine two possibilities (that or slide action) shows an uncharacteristic lapse in creativity.
If I was to go about building a gun, I would copy an existing gun, because that would automatically give me a 'gun' feel to it, it would give it authenticity, believablity, and that is one of the few things reality can give you, if you copy an existing gun you will get one that feels real, and feeling real is important, even if it isn't real.
Designing a whole new mechanism is much harder than simply copying one from an existing gun, and having recognisable elements adds a lot to an object.
Take tanks for example, you could design a whole new track system, but even games that don't have conventional tracks always use the same track system, they might split them into pods and mount them on the side of the tank so they can tilt as in halo, or they might have the top exposed like the UT3 goliath, but it's the same track technology as real life.
All good designs have a basis in reality or are designed so that they could work in reality, it's only when you JUST copy from reality that it sucks, you should have original elements but you need real elements as well otherwise you lose the sense of the fantastic, it stops being 'reality only better', and turns into 'what the hell is this I don't even' very quickly.
Updated my post with some new content on the bottom. There may be more German Nazi influence in this game upon further inspection.
<!--quoteo(post=1758000:date=Mar 8 2010, 03:50 AM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Mar 8 2010, 03:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758000"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm down with shell ejection - they could have put an ejection port on the side or top of the gun.
What I'm getting at is that the justification given in the blog ("believable functionality") is a load of hooey. Either someone is pushing hard for a WW2 throwback or it was designed for gameplay reasons (such as I mention a muzzleflash equivalent). <b><u>But to chose a firing mechanism of a Luger simply because they could only imagine two possibilities (that or slide action) shows an uncharacteristic lapse in creativity</u></b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. And what happened with the Axe?
The two positives from this would be
1) There would be no need to worry about shell eject mechanisms
and
2) Gun nuts would go crazy.
In other words: Keep your concerns about gun mechanics out of my action shooter plz.
The luger in my dads possession came from his father, who was 101st Airborne. I think it's safe to say the luger came from some dead German (no offense) :P
<!--quoteo(post=1758027:date=Mar 8 2010, 07:47 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Mar 8 2010, 07:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758027"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not have nannites in the pistol that fabricate bullets on the fly with the pistol taking nannite goop as ammo. It would build the shell around the bullet and then consume that shell to make the next bullet and build the shell for that bullet from the goop in the ammo chamber.
The two positives from this would be
1) There would be no need to worry about shell eject mechanisms
and
2) Gun nuts would go crazy.
In other words: Keep your concerns about gun mechanics out of my action shooter plz.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I completely agree that realism, with reference to what is the most appropriate gun action, was 100% not needed. The NS2 pistol could have been shooting caseless (futuristic like the Aliens Pulse Rifle) ammo, and therefore just have some internal moving slide you NEVER see, and NO EJECTING SHELLS! There problem solved and it doesn't matter where you slap a ammo readout. It's very obvious they intentionally went for that German pistol look...
Such as the 'Elite Black Armor'
<img src="http://www.hkpro.com/image/action2saswindow.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
And the TSA symbol is obviously inspired by the SAS badge. Just turn the wings into a gun and the motto banner into 6 downward stripes, hey look, the acronyms even have THREE LETTERS each. Wow.
<img src="http://www.briansworld.de/Konflict/Sas_badge.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Mmmm delicious meaningless symbolism, coincidence and jumping to far reaching conclusions. Completely stupid.
first of all ^^ hold on man , you talked about evil side ? my ancestors served in WWII as GERMANS and my grand grand dad hat a luger but he never fought for some "evil" ###### he fought because he would be killed by his own army if he doesnt, so much about evil lol (no offense)
2. i like the pistol basics BUT, i looks to heavy / bulky (just make it 5mm thinner) and the ejection of the bullet that makes it look like a luger is maybe unique maybe many people like it, but its not very efficient and usefull from a practical point of view... those open mechanical parts get dirty so freaking fast if you dont clean it in battle it wont fire after 4 clips... believe me
3. the axe is a mhhh lets say strange idea, nice to cut down alien structures thats for sure... but what is the nature of an axe and why is a knife maybe still more usefull ?? ill tell you :
an axe is meant to chop things (like wood or bones for example), but its only effective if you really put a lot of your physical power in the CHOP because the blade is long and has much surface that needs to penetrade the target.
a knife, with a knife you can not do the damage you can do with an axe thats sure... but thats not the way a knife is used to be a knife could be deadly without a hell lot of strengh, it does also have a long blade but it has a head witch is not for cutting, its for stabbing and while you chop that fade twice and he has 2 big bleeding wounds on his chest, i stabed him maybe 12 to 15 times all over his chest, and i stabed deep cuz i dont need that power with a knife to dig deep in his flesh ^^
thats just my opinion if you dont care i dont care ^^
ps. if you really take an axe take the curvey one plz
Such as the 'Elite Black Armor'
<a href="http://www.hkpro.com/image/action2saswindow.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.hkpro.com/image/action2saswindow.jpg</a>
And the TSA symbol is obviously inspired by the SAS badge. Just turn the wings into a gun and the motto banner into 6 downward stripes, hey look, the acronyms even have THREE LETTERS each. Wow.
<a href="http://www.briansworld.de/Konflict/Sas_badge.gif" target="_blank">http://www.briansworld.de/Konflict/Sas_badge.gif</a>
Mmmm delicious meaningless symbolism, coincidence and jumping to far reaching conclusions. Completely stupid.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I appreciate your alternate explanation for the black uniform and the name + symbol of the TSA. I really hope this is where the inspiration came from. I assume you agree with my analysis of the pistol (plus all choices in that pistol concept voting thing we did a long time go), and i'm only "completely wrong" regarding the uniform + TSA symbol?
The only thing "completely stupid" is to believe your explanation or my explanation (regarding the TSA symbol and or the black uniform) is 100% the truth at this point in time. Its simply too much of an assumption to see your version as the whole truth vs mine, given the scope of the irrefutable German pistols influence (not only in the NS2 pistol, but every concept art variation!). Maybe the devs can explain the symbolism of NS2. I don't believe they're being "original" with that logo (which dates back to NS1 which featured the LMG, obviously inspired by various <b><u>WW2</u></b> British submachine guns), now after their "original" work regarding the folding axe. They could at least say the Gerber "Kick Axe" is what they un-originally copied? pirated? stole? And they only revealed the luger, because only a complete ###### would not recognize it came from a luger, but the Walther P38's influence is not so much explained... regarding the NS2 P37 9mm pistol... Yaa.
Who is actually bothered by this? We could just say that it's a chronological prequel. We really do need to think the gameplay because NS1 is unbalanced in many ways. NS2 is looking balanced since it has commanders on both sides and no bunnyhopping as far as I know.
<!--quoteo(post=1757964:date=Mar 8 2010, 05:54 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Mar 8 2010, 05:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757964"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The purpose of that post was to show that the devs have an almost unhealthy appreciation for German WW2 pistols. :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why is this a bad thing? The Space Luger looks cool. I'm sure we all will be happy pistol whipping aliens with it.
I'm afraid you have no idea what you are talking about.
The two positives from this would be
1) There would be no need to worry about shell eject mechanisms
and
2) Gun nuts would go crazy.
In other words: Keep your concerns about gun mechanics out of my action shooter plz.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because it makes it look like a gun.
If you remove major gun-like qualities from it you turn it into the things from mass effect which are incredibly forgettable and not exactly thrilling to use. They function nicely but sound and look pretty crap.
Whereas rough beefy mechanical stuff is very NS, it all moves and shows the internal workings when you <i>could</i> just have it be a solid block, this is generally good because solid blocks are not very interesting to look at, whereas things that have lots of moving parts are more visually appealing.
It's a bit like warhammer 40k in that respect, the space marines are characterised by every piece of technology being based off a chainsaw and making a chainsaw noise when you use it. Tanks, machineguns, swords, everything goes ARRRRGGGGGHHHHH when you use it and has lots of moving metal bits. NS is kinda like that, having things that don't show the workings would be kind of like giving a space marine an eldar shuriken pistol, it wouldn't fit that well.
The lever looks like it's built out of the same kind of stuff as most of the structures, it's really a rather good stylistic choice to incorporate that into the gun somehow as well.
German Nazi influence?
Oh, come on, don't you have anything better to do than trying to search Nazi and WW2 references in everything in this game?
And what if they have Nazi and WW2 influences? It's still a great game, and nobody cares about it.
The only thing "completely stupid" is to believe your explanation or my explanation (regarding the TSA symbol and or the black uniform) is 100% the truth at this point in time. Its simply too much of an assumption to see your version as the whole truth vs mine, given the scope of the irrefutable German pistols influence (not only in the NS2 pistol, but every concept art variation!). Maybe the devs can explain the symbolism of NS2. I don't believe they're being "original" with that logo (which dates back to NS1 which featured the LMG, obviously inspired by various <b><u>WW2</u></b> British submachine guns), now after their "original" work regarding the folding axe. They could at least say the Gerber "Kick Axe" is what they un-originally copied? pirated? stole? And they only revealed the luger, because only a complete ###### would not recognize it came from a luger, but the Walther P38's influence is not so much explained... regarding the NS2 P37 9mm pistol... Yaa.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually I was just being sarcastic. As an artist myself, when I make things a whole heap of stuff can influence my artistic direction, seriously, things I wouldn't be able to name but at some point in my life stuck in the dark recesses of my mind.
Sometimes when I've designed sci fi weaponry for example, I usually look at a whole bunch of guns, with something general in mind and pretty much most of the time I'll go for whatever looks cool and functional, from Magnums to Famases, I even designed a pistol based on the Mauser once because I love it's overall design and shape. It's distinct.
Same with uniforms and such, I've had a few black elite type suits because to the general masses black usually = 'special forces/highly trained/the elite', which isn't far from reality when you look at groups such as the SAS, SWAT, Spetsnaz, SS, 'secret agents' etc. Black is a shade you simply don't argue with because it's all powerful and all consuming.
I think the pistol is cool, it wouldn't be my first choice because you're right in that it's an old mechanism, but it's not as simple as saying nanites do all the work either, that's more ridiculous than the luger lever, this isn't Star Trek after all, NS2 is industrial sci fi, bulky, nanites work for large structures and making weaponry inside containers but not making bullets in a small gun, except maybe to the very rich.
I agree that yes, the pistol has a lot of similarities to a luger but really it kinda ends there. If you start thinking the whole of NS2's design was influenced by nazis, sure you'll see it but it isn't real, it's just a coincidence at best. Also how do you make the leap that luger = nazi? Switzerland adopted the gun in 1900, 8 years before Germany and a year after Hitler was born.
If I had a go at designing the pistol, I probably would have done it a lot different, but as it is it works and it looks cool, you'll hardly notice the features in game.
What I'm getting at is that the justification given in the blog ("believable functionality") is a load of hooey. Either someone is pushing hard for a WW2 throwback or it was designed for gameplay reasons (such as I mention a muzzleflash equivalent). But to chose a firing mechanism of a Luger simply because they could only imagine two possibilities (that or slide action) shows an uncharacteristic lapse in creativity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How does simply narrowing down your available options show a lapse in creativity?
Narrowing down is fine and necessary. But if you're creating aesthetics for a dirty-tech sci-fi FPS and your final solution for "believability" is narrowed down to a Luger, then it's time you either admit you have a penchant in seeing a Luger in the game or a serious restriction on your imagination.
You're forgiven for borrowing from <i>common</i> elements; as noted by others: you need a gun to look like a gun. But in the event that you realize you're going to have to deviate from a standard pistol design, here's your chance to be creative. You can modify how slide-action works, or have the shells ejected from a static port on the side, or better still, do away with the shells as they combine with nanites to absorb excess heat.
But instead you say "hey, lets borrow from an obscure WW2 design" when you have a <b>multitude</b> of more aesthetically and genre-pleasing solutions at your fingertips.
That's subjective. Maybe the other options they explored weren't very aesthetically pleasing, or didn't fit into their design constraints. Maybe their design constraints consist of mechanical plausibility + obscure familiarity. In any case, I don't see anything wrong with the justification for their design. The thing about art is that even the most objective descriptions are ultimately entirely subjective.
You inspired me :P
<div align='center'><img src="http://www.existence-unknown.com/marbl_media/articles/1shot-comics/ns2-tsa-vs-dundee.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<a href="http://www.existence-unknown.com/gallery3/1shot-comics/_article/ns2-tsa-vs-dundee.html" target="_blank">linkage to article</a></div>
I'm keeping an eye on you lot, beware when I spot entertaining stuff it will be comicfied!
I fully subject to the notion that it's possible only I find a Luger firing mechanism to be odd in an NS universe full of a variety of other non-standard firing mechanisms that could have been used to fit their design constraints (which I disagree includes "obscure" - nothing we've seen thus far in NS design is as obscure as a highly-specific WW2 reference).
<div align='center'><img src="http://www.existence-unknown.com/marbl_media/articles/1shot-comics/nsforums-politically-incorrect-sheep.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<a href="http://www.existence-unknown.com/gallery3/1shot-comics/_article/ns2-tsa-vs-dundee.html" target="_blank">linkage to article</a></div>
I also apologize for the furry in the image!
/runs for cover
/hides
<div align='center'><img src="http://www.existence-unknown.com/marbl_media/articles/1shot-comics/nsforums-politically-incorrect-sheep.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<a href="http://www.existence-unknown.com/gallery3/1shot-comics/_article/_edit/ns2-tsa-vs-dundee.html" target="_blank">linkage to article</a></div>
I also apologize for the furry in the image!
/runs for cover
/hides<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha this has made my day.