I think the sweet spot for games should be right around 20-30 minutes. Games that are a blatant loss for one side should be over in 5-10, tops (and usually are, from skulk rushes/egg lock + good comm).
<!--quoteo(post=1914105:date=Mar 17 2012, 12:27 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 17 2012, 12:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914105"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, in regards to Marines, they need something to tie them to a tech point as Tempest suggests so they aren't locked into defend/area denial strategies with a singular, fortified base and a singular point of spawning, unlike aliens.... but WHAT could you tie to these tech points? Phasegates? Armor? i have no clue, <i>good luck though</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> RTs is what did this in NS1. If you sat in base all day with just 1 RT, even if you were fully graded (lvl3 armor\weps) and with a few weapons and suits, you would still lose the game pretty quickly to hive-3 aliens. If marines can hold fully upgraded aliens on just a single node, then the weapons are too cheap, or the suits are too cheap, or the damage is set too high, or marine-start is biased towards entrenchment, or aliens are simply too weak.
This whole notion of tying technology to points in the map is pretty ###### dumb, it ruins strategical inventiveness, which is why alien-lifeforms should get the ###### unlocked from their hives already. We've seen all this in NS1, why are these mistakes made yet again in NS2. Does anyone get the impression UWE is doing a perfect imitation of George Lucas? Managing an excellent first product, but any subsequent attempts are so ###### stupid and badly thought out you start to wonder how on earth they made the first one.
Stop trying out all these 'little' ideas, sit down and THINK about how everything should work, what the roles of all the lifeforms\players should be, and scrutinize it as much as possible in your head and don't be affraid to look back at past failures and successes to further base your work on. I'm not even playing this game, but I can imagine the frustration of the players having to deal with these little ######nuggets you keep dropping them. "its a beta!!11" et all, is no bloody excuse for out of the box ###### ideas. THINK before you write code, please.
Oh and listen to your playtesters already (the deviant ones, not the brown-nosers), I think they have a better clue honestly.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
no offense player, but your rant is just that - a rant, when you say this or that is "dumb" but you don't explain with any depth or supporting evidence.
I think there is equal amount of "strategical inventiveness" with or without lifeforms being tied to techpoints - it doesn't change where a hive goes down, it doesn't change where chambers are placed, and it doesn't change anything else related to strategy besides allowing the player to choose <b>when </b>to change instead of having a requirement of <b>HOW </b>they will change (based upon their teamwork and efforts etc etc) i just don't see it, please provide an argument?
also i'm pretty sure the devs are "sitting down and thinking" and "scrutinizing" ...? it just may be hard for them to see the whole picture if they are that close to their project, they do need fresh eyes, their opinions and of course<b> to listen to them.</b>
i agree with your comment regarding listening to your playtesters whole heartedly.
<!--quoteo(post=1914213:date=Mar 17 2012, 08:12 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 17 2012, 08:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914213"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think there is equal amount of "strategical inventiveness" with or without lifeforms being tied to techpoints - it doesn't change where a hive goes down, it doesn't change where chambers are placed, and it doesn't change anything else related to strategy besides allowing the player to choose <b>when </b>to change instead of having a requirement of <b>HOW </b>they will change (based upon their teamwork and efforts etc etc) i just don't see it, please provide an argument?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're affixing the aliens along an upgrade-path. In NS1, you can do a hive1 fade\onos-rush, or hive-2 with 1 or 2 fewer fade\onos in exchange for hive2-abilities and a 2nd chamber-type. You haven't a choice now in NS2, and there are numerous of such limitations in there now that just curtail the game's flexibility, I guess you could call it dumbing down.
Player's rant is pretty much how I feel and how quite a few others I've talked to seem to be feeling also.
As usual, by all means do what you see fit, but please do realize that right not it isn't looking convincing at all to an outside viewer. With the schedule set up, the puzzle pieces should be very much coming together within the next few months or so and there are still a plenty of features that seem illogical or unproven and changes being made to the huge outlines of how movement, tech and res models work.
If major rework is to happen, it should happen very soon. Refinement and finesse required for a commercial product aren't going to happen over a couple of weeks, not at least on the limited resoucres this project has.
<!--quoteo(post=1914218:date=Mar 17 2012, 03:35 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Mar 17 2012, 03:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914218"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're affixing the aliens along an upgrade-path. In NS1, you can do a hive1 fade\onos-rush, or hive-2 with 1 or 2 fewer fade\onos in exchange for hive2-abilities and a 2nd chamber-type. You haven't a choice now in NS2, and there are numerous of such limitations in there now that just curtail the game's flexibility, I guess you could call it dumbing down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ns 1.0: hour long games with walls of sentries and marines turtling in base ns 2.0: massive change to the game where lifeforms became unlinked to the number of hives, sentries rebalanced, etc ns 3.0: enormous balance changes to make games shorter and tons of polish
~flayra goes on a drinking binge for years and year and forgets everything he did in ns1~
ns2 1.0: hour long games with walls of sentries and marines turtling in base...
<!--quoteo(post=1914226:date=Mar 17 2012, 04:09 AM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Mar 17 2012, 04:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914226"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ns 1.0: hour long games with walls of sentries and marines turtling in base ns 2.0: massive change to the game where lifeforms became unlinked to the number of hives, sentries rebalanced, etc ns 3.0: enormous balance changes to make games shorter and tons of polish
~flayra goes on a drinking binge for years and year and forgets everything he did in ns1~
ns2 1.0: hour long games with walls of sentries and marines turtling in base...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
Hopefully transparency is added soon so people who stop by the pax east booth can see ns2 in it's full aquatic themed beauty. With the drifter and shade.
<!--quoteo(post=1914796:date=Mar 18 2012, 06:14 PM:name=RustInPieces)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RustInPieces @ Mar 18 2012, 06:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Design task Remove Frenzy and Swarm has appeared with status Accepted"
Why? What will replace them? Skulks really need Celerity<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Celerity and Hyper-mutation are currently in development, so I suppose those will "complete" the Kharaa evolution upgrades. I'm glad those are getting removed, since Frenzy makes "good" Fades too strong and Swarm just confuses players.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1914218:date=Mar 17 2012, 12:35 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Mar 17 2012, 12:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914218"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're affixing the aliens along an upgrade-path. In NS1, you can do a hive1 fade\onos-rush, or hive-2 with 1 or 2 fewer fade\onos in exchange for hive2-abilities and a 2nd chamber-type. You haven't a choice now in NS2, and there are numerous of such limitations in there now that just curtail the game's flexibility, I guess you could call it dumbing down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is actually a good point, player. its adds another option to the table which includes tradeoffs/risks.
but marines have been on this fixed upgrade path for quite some time now (may 2011?) and nobody ever seems to notice/complain? (Except me, but thats not for lack of options but rather the balance impact that asymmetric resource models between the teams can have - the largest issue with NS1)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Design task Fade out marine health/armor when full has appeared with status Unstarted<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aw hell no! If anything you should remove that feature from the alien side, not add it for marines.
Please take a step back and think about what you are doing! If the full health values are hidden - you can't check how much health your class has. This is terrible in a game where not every player has the same amount, 100% != 100%. Disaster for newbies! How are they supposed to get a feel for their strength? - you can't see the effect of armour upgrades.
The HUD displays so much information, why do you want to (temporarily) hide the most important part???
<!--quoteo(post=1915101:date=Mar 19 2012, 06:04 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Mar 19 2012, 06:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915101"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What is hyper mutation?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
F I remeber right, it's an upgrade that you can choose. If you gestate to Lerk with this up, your 30 paid res are saved and you can gestate free to gorge or skulk and back to lerk, and for going fade you'll have to pay only 20 more res.
So you don't really have to pay all the res again.
<!--quoteo(post=1918987:date=Mar 28 2012, 11:40 AM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Mar 28 2012, 11:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918987"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If someone is interested in the GooWall, I am uploading a short video about it.
<!--quoteo(post=1918987:date=Mar 28 2012, 08:40 AM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Mar 28 2012, 08:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918987"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If someone is interested in the GooWall, I am uploading a short video about it.
Is there already some information on how it will be planted by a gorge? Like: will it just be planted in front of you, or can you choose the starting and ending of it, like with webs in ns1?
<!--quoteo(post=1919121:date=Mar 28 2012, 11:09 PM:name=Bicsum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bicsum @ Mar 28 2012, 11:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1919121"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is there already some information on how it will be planted by a gorge? Like: will it just be planted in front of you, or can you choose the starting and ending of it, like with webs in ns1?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't know but your sig.... Comon now I can even browse the Forums without .....weld.....me..... Omg!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Design task Mature Hives has appeared with status Started<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interesting, this looks like potential balancing step for Fade & Onos, as well as lifeform abilities.
<!--quoteo(post=1919604:date=Mar 30 2012, 01:44 AM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Mar 30 2012, 01:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1919604"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->About...15 metres? You can see the range perimeter before you place a hydra. I think the spikes can be dodged.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hydras have been hitting me from more than 15 meters aways. I thought I was save, but no...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Make power nodes unbuildable until aux-power comes on<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hoho, 15 seconds of darkness + 5 seconds build time can result in a lot of vaporized Marines :P
Comments
RTs is what did this in NS1. If you sat in base all day with just 1 RT, even if you were fully graded (lvl3 armor\weps) and with a few weapons and suits, you would still lose the game pretty quickly to hive-3 aliens. If marines can hold fully upgraded aliens on just a single node, then the weapons are too cheap, or the suits are too cheap, or the damage is set too high, or marine-start is biased towards entrenchment, or aliens are simply too weak.
This whole notion of tying technology to points in the map is pretty ###### dumb, it ruins strategical inventiveness, which is why alien-lifeforms should get the ###### unlocked from their hives already. We've seen all this in NS1, why are these mistakes made yet again in NS2. Does anyone get the impression UWE is doing a perfect imitation of George Lucas? Managing an excellent first product, but any subsequent attempts are so ###### stupid and badly thought out you start to wonder how on earth they made the first one.
Stop trying out all these 'little' ideas, sit down and THINK about how everything should work, what the roles of all the lifeforms\players should be, and scrutinize it as much as possible in your head and don't be affraid to look back at past failures and successes to further base your work on. I'm not even playing this game, but I can imagine the frustration of the players having to deal with these little ######nuggets you keep dropping them. "its a beta!!11" et all, is no bloody excuse for out of the box ###### ideas. THINK before you write code, please.
Oh and listen to your playtesters already (the deviant ones, not the brown-nosers), I think they have a better clue honestly.
/rant out
I think there is equal amount of "strategical inventiveness" with or without lifeforms being tied to techpoints - it doesn't change where a hive goes down, it doesn't change where chambers are placed, and it doesn't change anything else related to strategy besides allowing the player to choose <b>when </b>to change instead of having a requirement of <b>HOW </b>they will change (based upon their teamwork and efforts etc etc) i just don't see it, please provide an argument?
also i'm pretty sure the devs are "sitting down and thinking" and "scrutinizing" ...? it just may be hard for them to see the whole picture if they are that close to their project, they do need fresh eyes, their opinions and of course<b> to listen to them.</b>
i agree with your comment regarding listening to your playtesters whole heartedly.
That better for depth?
edit,
It is a shame they did not do playtester applications based on questionnaired responses to get better quality persons and not brown nosers
You're affixing the aliens along an upgrade-path. In NS1, you can do a hive1 fade\onos-rush, or hive-2 with 1 or 2 fewer fade\onos in exchange for hive2-abilities and a 2nd chamber-type. You haven't a choice now in NS2, and there are numerous of such limitations in there now that just curtail the game's flexibility, I guess you could call it dumbing down.
As usual, by all means do what you see fit, but please do realize that right not it isn't looking convincing at all to an outside viewer. With the schedule set up, the puzzle pieces should be very much coming together within the next few months or so and there are still a plenty of features that seem illogical or unproven and changes being made to the huge outlines of how movement, tech and res models work.
If major rework is to happen, it should happen very soon. Refinement and finesse required for a commercial product aren't going to happen over a couple of weeks, not at least on the limited resoucres this project has.
ns 1.0: hour long games with walls of sentries and marines turtling in base
ns 2.0: massive change to the game where lifeforms became unlinked to the number of hives, sentries rebalanced, etc
ns 3.0: enormous balance changes to make games shorter and tons of polish
~flayra goes on a drinking binge for years and year and forgets everything he did in ns1~
ns2 1.0: hour long games with walls of sentries and marines turtling in base...
GPU and RAM already here, the big package with CPU, MoBo and the other crap still waiting to enter shipping.
The last time I felt this anxious for a date was a birthday or christmas - 15 years ago!
ns 2.0: massive change to the game where lifeforms became unlinked to the number of hives, sentries rebalanced, etc
ns 3.0: enormous balance changes to make games shorter and tons of polish
~flayra goes on a drinking binge for years and year and forgets everything he did in ns1~
ns2 1.0: hour long games with walls of sentries and marines turtling in base...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
=(
Why? What will replace them?
Skulks really need Celerity
Why? What will replace them?
Skulks really need Celerity<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Celerity and Hyper-mutation are currently in development, so I suppose those will "complete" the Kharaa evolution upgrades. I'm glad those are getting removed, since Frenzy makes "good" Fades too strong and Swarm just confuses players.
this is actually a good point, player.
its adds another option to the table which includes tradeoffs/risks.
but marines have been on this fixed upgrade path for quite some time now (may 2011?) and nobody ever seems to notice/complain? (Except me, but thats not for lack of options but rather the balance impact that asymmetric resource models between the teams can have - the largest issue with NS1)
Aw hell no!
If anything you should remove that feature from the alien side, not add it for marines.
Please take a step back and think about what you are doing!
If the full health values are hidden
- you can't check how much health your class has. This is terrible in a game where not every player has the same amount, 100% != 100%. Disaster for newbies! How are they supposed to get a feel for their strength?
- you can't see the effect of armour upgrades.
The HUD displays so much information, why do you want to (temporarily) hide the most important part???
F I remeber right, it's an upgrade that you can choose.
If you gestate to Lerk with this up, your 30 paid res are saved and you can gestate free to gorge or skulk and back to lerk, and for going fade you'll have to pay only 20 more res.
So you don't really have to pay all the res again.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/0sI7XX34fMU"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/0sI7XX34fMU" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Still uploading it .-D
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/0sI7XX34fMU"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/0sI7XX34fMU" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Still uploading it .-D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no more slowdown on moving through it?
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/0sI7XX34fMU"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/0sI7XX34fMU" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Still uploading it .-D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's cool. The second one is kinda weird though...it's just floating?
You can just spawn the goiwall in a lan server, cheats 1, give goowall, that's why it is floating.
Like: will it just be planted in front of you, or can you choose the starting and ending of it, like with webs in ns1?
Like: will it just be planted in front of you, or can you choose the starting and ending of it, like with webs in ns1?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't know but your sig.... Comon now I can even browse the Forums without .....weld.....me..... Omg!
Interesting, this looks like potential balancing step for Fade & Onos, as well as lifeform abilities.
Hydras have been hitting me from more than 15 meters aways. I thought I was save, but no...
I find Hydras pretty unpredictable. I can run right past them sometimes, other times I think I have cover and they hit me anyway.
Hoho, 15 seconds of darkness + 5 seconds build time can result in a lot of vaporized Marines :P