<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Design task Armor 1/2 not helpful vs. skulks has appeared with status Started<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It kinda is i thought? a1 means no para 2 bite which is huge. a2 means 1 med on bite = 4 bite which allows for good marine comm play.
<!--quoteo(post=1918987:date=Mar 28 2012, 08:40 AM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Mar 28 2012, 08:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1918987"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If someone is interested in the GooWall, I am uploading a short video about it.
<!--quoteo(post=1925236:date=Apr 13 2012, 09:22 PM:name=paradoxum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (paradoxum @ Apr 13 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1925236"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->can aliens shoot through the wall? also, I presume that graphic is a placeholder?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, Gorge Spit definitely does :P
The model won't load in B204, so it's probably a placeholder.
The GooWall is imune to structural DMG and GLs ignore it. A marine tuching the Wall will be slowed down as long as he touches it. And flamers works great for it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Noticed today (2 minutes ago) on the Progress Tracker: Unstarted: Drifters v2.0 (discuss) Design task Drifters v2.0 transitioned from Accepted to Unstarted Noticed today (7 minutes ago) on the Progress Tracker: Accepted: Drifters v2.0 (discuss) Design task Drifters v2.0 transitioned from Unstarted to Accepted Noticed today (12 minutes ago) on the Progress Tracker: Unstarted: Drifters v2.0 (discuss) Design task Drifters v2.0 transitioned from Accepted to Unstarted Noticed today (17 minutes ago) on the Progress Tracker: Accepted: Drifters v2.0 (discuss) Design task Drifters v2.0 transitioned from Unstarted to Accepted Noticed today (22 minutes ago) on the Progress Tracker: Unstarted: Drifters v2.0 (discuss) Design task Drifters v2.0 transitioned from Started to Unstarted Noticed today (22 minutes ago) on the Progress Tracker: Accepted: Drifters v2.0 (discuss) Design task Drifters v2.0 transitioned from Started to Accepted Noticed today (about 2 hours ago) on the Progress Tracker: Started: Drifters v2.0 (discuss) Design task Drifters v2.0 has appeared with status Started<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm a bit confused right now... :D What's up with the new Drifters?
It's obvious that developers want to make sure nobody miss it :) Drifters goes into stage 2.0!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Noticed today (5 minutes ago) on the Progress Tracker: Accepted: Drifters v2.0 (discuss) Design task Drifters v2.0 transitioned from Started to Accepted Noticed today (10 minutes ago) on the Progress Tracker: Started: Drifters v2.0 (discuss) Design task Drifters v2.0 transitioned from Accepted to Started Noticed today (15 minutes ago) on the Progress Tracker: Accepted: Drifters v2.0 (discuss) Design task Drifters v2.0 transitioned from Started to Accepted Noticed today (20 minutes ago) on the Progress Tracker: Started: Drifters v2.0 (discuss) Design task Drifters v2.0 transitioned from Accepted to Started<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1926813:date=Apr 18 2012, 02:16 PM:name=Tyrsis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tyrsis @ Apr 18 2012, 02:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1926813"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The drifters in the tracker are trying to navigate Tram from server room.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
PlasmaJoin Date: 2003-04-26Member: 15855Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1927123:date=Apr 19 2012, 11:57 PM:name=ZycaR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ZycaR @ Apr 19 2012, 11:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927123"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's obvious that developers want to make sure nobody miss it :) Drifters goes into stage 2.0!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry, that was a bug on my behalf, fixed :)
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2012
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Design task Design ammo/health packs to use Armory energy has appeared with status Unstarted<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's time for mass armories, my marines will never die.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Design task Add push-back on infantry portal and phase gate making camping little bit more difficult. has appeared with status Delivered<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've been wanting this for a long time, thank you!
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2012
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Design ammo/health packs to use Armory energy<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How will that scale for teams of various sizes? Although I suppose armories are inexpensive for their effectiveness. On the positive side, Marines will not be able to turtle for as long if they have limited health and ammo supplies.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marine/Alien armor changes (Fade swipe problem, among others)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I really really hope Fades have ways to increase their damage over the course of the game. Fade is a high risk, high reward melee class. After nerfs upon nerfs, Fades are barely better than Skulks as assassins.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Design ammo/health packs to use Armory energy<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seems they aim to unleash to ultimate forces of raging with this one :)
So a lot of players have asked to remove energy and instead they decided to increase the amount of energy uses even more? Can't say I'm thrilled about this one
1. Energy is a terribly confusing, non-transparant resource. Players can't tell how much energy they have for action X or Y without clicking on said building. This is a big issue 2. The more energy abilities get put into the game, the less commander p.res does, alien commander is a good example of this, usually I'm sitting at 100 p.res 10 - 15 min into the game. Medpacks and aommo on energy will result in the same thing happening for marines. 3. The RTS model does not have enough depth (choices, tech, abilities) to warrant a triple resource model, it's an overly complex model for the small amount of depth that is in fact present
In the Design FAQ you claimed energy was useful and allowed for drama, I rebutted this:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To be fair, putting energy based abilities on p.res would not cut into the drama. Instead of running out of energy the commander could simply run out of p.res. (Same drama) At least with p.res it's easier to manage and keep an eye on, and it increases the p.res sinks and trade-offs/choices for both sides, which is greatly needed (particularly for the alien comm). There would also be no need for cooldowns, since there are so many other things the commanders can and probably will spend p.res on, they will never be able to just spam beacon/umbra/scan. (And even if they did, that would come at the cost of no medpacks/ammo/etc)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Design ammo/health packs to use Armory energy<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Remind me again why we have resources in this game?
<!--quoteo(post=1930634:date=Apr 27 2012, 01:28 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 27 2012, 01:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930634"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. The RTS model does not have enough depth (choices, tech, abilities) to warrant a triple resource model, it's an overly complex model for the small amount of depth that is in fact present<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not only that, but the resource model itself prevents depth. Compared to NS1 UWE achieved something 'funny'. They made the resource model more complex and simplistic at the same time. Complex because we now have 3 instead of 1 resource. Simplistic because having multiple non-overlapping resources requires far less decisions from the commander. But I know this has been pointed out before...
It's technically not even 3-resources, since several buildings have their own 'energy'. This means there are in fact 4 resources for the marine commander, 2 energy ones. It's just an incredibly frustrating system to coop with as a commander. So what's going to cost p.res for the marine commander? Only weapon drops. How incredibly sad.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Design task Probably remove hive-sight and healing for infestation has appeared with status Unstarted Lower initial player res to 10<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1930620:date=Apr 27 2012, 11:28 AM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Apr 27 2012, 11:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930620"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How will that scale for teams of various sizes? Although I suppose armories are inexpensive for their effectiveness. On the positive side, Marines will not be able to turtle for as long if they have limited health and ammo supplies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Heh, this change will only make it easier for marines to turtle. Spam a few armories for infinite medpacks. Just like all the other energy powered abilities; umbra, cloak, beacon, scan.
"This will all end in tears." - Melvin the depressed robot
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1930634:date=Apr 27 2012, 07:28 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 27 2012, 07:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930634"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So a lot of players have asked to remove energy and instead they decided to increase the amount of energy uses even more? Can't say I'm thrilled about this one
1. Energy is a terribly confusing, non-transparant resource. Players can't tell how much energy they have for action X or Y without clicking on said building. This is a big issue 2. The more energy abilities get put into the game, the less commander p.res does, alien commander is a good example of this, usually I'm sitting at 100 p.res 10 - 15 min into the game. Medpacks and aommo on energy will result in the same thing happening for marines. 3. The RTS model does not have enough depth (choices, tech, abilities) to warrant a triple resource model, it's an overly complex model for the small amount of depth that is in fact present<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the problem with p.res for commander abilities is that you promote commander cycling. in case the commander abilities are too good -> common strategy for comp. games is to regularly cycle the commander to spam those abilities: you see this very good at medpacks currently. you could argue now that those p.res could have been additional weapons instead, but it is way more effective to keep marines alive which already purchased those weapons (it's cheaper long termas well for the team)
about energy: you build structures with team res. you already made here a choice: should i research another upgrade, expand or invest the resources into energy (for abilities like nano shield, medpacks, ammo). there is a moment when this investment has payed off (kept enough marines alive to succeed in a crucial push, which set back the enemies economy, for example). if this structure gets destroyed before that investment payed off, you basically lost something. so it's an investment with a risk. a good example are the sentries in sc2: they are quite expensive when you look at their DPS, but when you keep them alive long enough you can get huge advantages with their force field ability.
Not seeing your energy properly is an UI issue, not a game issue.
We already discussed this in details, commanders shouldn't use pres. Pres are for personal equipment that scales with player count, not for team stuff. Commander should have no pres income, and everything team related should cost tres. Medpack should evidently cost tres, it's trading army strength for tech or economy, the <i>very basics</i> or RTS games.
Now you still have the problem that tres/energy don't scale with player count, while number of medpacks should. Using pres is not the solution, as it would force commander cycling in big games. Scaling is not really an issue right now anyway, because of the server performances.
<!--quoteo(post=1930656:date=Apr 27 2012, 02:34 PM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Apr 27 2012, 02:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930656"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the problem with p.res for commander abilities is that you promote commander cycling. in case the commander abilities are too good -> common strategy for comp. games is to regularly cycle the commander to spam those abilities: you see this very good at medpacks currently. you could argue now that those p.res could have been additional weapons instead, but it is way more effective to keep marines alive which already purchased those weapons (it's cheaper long termas well for the team)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I agree that this is a problem, but wouldn't it make sense to have all energy related things come from 1 pool of energy. If you can just build multiple armouries or observatories then you can get lots of energy for quite a low tres investment. If they all came from the 1 pool regardless of how many structures you built then it would give the com a choice, do I use beacon now and have less med packs for later? etc.
The other thing with coms not using pres is it will likely build up and then you will see them swapping out at the end to go onos or exo. Perhaps com pres shouldn't accumulate when they are in the command chair.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited April 2012
I always thought the energy system was a bit incomplete.
Every structure should have energy of some kind. It should use energy for it's basic function. (Phasegate jumps, getting healed at the armory, ect.) Even Command chairs would require energy to stay logged in. Have structures start with a small fraction of stored energy, allowing ninja structures or emergency quick structures. And structures not in a powered room/or on infestation, would have an energy drain over time.
Overuse or strain of a single structure would eventually cause a structure to be, "tired." Which means the structure has been used often enough that it needs to recharge to continue basic function. Staying in a prolonged "tired" state until it can rest for consecutive use once again.
i.e. After a certain amount of consecutive spawning, an infantry portal would need to wait a few seconds as it needs to regain energy to activate the next spawning sequence.
I think that would be fine against turtling as well. As it would give a gradual drain in defense. It would also give tradeoffs to using structure abilities.
<!--quoteo(post=1930656:date=Apr 27 2012, 08:34 AM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Apr 27 2012, 08:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930656"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the problem with p.res for commander abilities is that you promote commander cycling. in case the commander abilities are too good -> common strategy for comp. games is to regularly cycle the commander to spam those abilities: you see this very good at medpacks currently. you could argue now that those p.res could have been additional weapons instead, but it is way more effective to keep marines alive which already purchased those weapons (it's cheaper long termas well for the team)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 20 medpacks > shotgun. Also its enough to have 4 marines on the field with weapons, you only need to cycle 2 players.
<!--quoteo(post=1930656:date=Apr 27 2012, 08:34 AM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Apr 27 2012, 08:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930656"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->about energy: you build structures with team res. you already made here a choice: should i research another upgrade, expand or invest the resources into energy (for abilities like nano shield, medpacks, ammo). there is a moment when this investment has payed off (kept enough marines alive to succeed in a crucial push, which set back the enemies economy, for example). if this structure gets destroyed before that investment payed off, you basically lost something. so it's an investment with a risk. a good example are the sentries in sc2: they are quite expensive when you look at their DPS, but when you keep them alive long enough you can get huge advantages with their force field ability.
Not seeing your energy properly is an UI issue, not a game issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I could simply buy 5 armories in the beginning and then have enough energy to spam med/ammo all game. Would not matter if I lost my rts I would always be able to medspam, giving me a strong early game. Also if the game goes into the late game marines won't need rts anymore, they will have their upgrades and armories up so even if they recycled the rts they would still have a strong late game. There is also no risk in building stuff in your base. Sentries from sc2 is also a poor examble since it is a completley diffrent thing. NS does not have enough sustenance to support 3 resources types. Thats why it needs to change to tres+pres or tres+energy. I think tres+energy is better. Even so you should keep energy abilities as low as possible and it should defenitly not be something as powerful as medpacks/ammo. *** Now I'm not sure what you are trying to do. If you want a class based game where things cost energy then you could simply have passive res gain and remove rts from the game. But since this game is based on economy it makes no sens to try to make things cost enregy. I'm sorry but your game will never reach full potencial if you don't work with your core mechanics. It does more damage in the long run.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We already discussed this in details, commanders shouldn't use pres. Pres are for personal equipment that scales with player count, not for team stuff. Commander should have no pres income, and everything team related should cost tres.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this would be a good, and easy solution as well. From what I can tell, UWE thinks the same way, since they are moving away from p.res on comm abilities? It would now be incredibly silly to still keep p.res for those few remaining, unimportant sinks.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->about energy: you build structures with team res. you already made here a choice: should i research another upgrade, expand or invest the resources into energy (for abilities like nano shield, medpacks, ammo)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but the thing is that the energy is tied to structures that you would have built for other reasons regardless. I.e you don't decide to build an armory because it'll allow you medpacks and ammo, you have to build it anyway. Similarly you don't build a crag for the umbra, you build it primarily because you want an area to receive healing. This means it's not a choice for the comm, that armory is going to be built regardless.
The nutrient mist is a good example of how the energy system utterly fails, the alien khamm will ALWAYS mist the main hive to get augmentation at 6 min. There is nothing else to invest that energy in anyway. If mist cost t.res instead, we'd actually have a proper trade-off, i.e the comm could use his t.res on speeding maturation on the existing structures or could spend that t.res on further expanding/researching new upgrades.
I think Energy is a good resource, it's renewable and controllable for the developers. The only bad thing about it is that it's poorly implemented since there's little choice and scales with the amount of structures you have too cheaply.
Marines could rather use a HUD element that says Resupply Energy (Medpack, Catalyst, Ammo) and Phase Energy (Scan, Beacon, Shield). Maybe that would help not having to check your structures all the time as well, which seems to be an issue.
These pools shouldn't scale with the amount of structures however! Stuff like Beacon should not be more plentiful by purchasing another structure that cheap. Maybe an additional structure only gave a smaller amount of energy, +50 or whatever to that meter, instead of doubling it.
Aliens on the other hand just lacks in the spell department, with only Nutrient Mist and Cysts to go with, where one is clearly the dominant one in the early game. They have less choice thus less strategy, but that doesn't mean that the system is bad, it's simply not feature complete enough for it to work to its full potential.
Comments
Also excited about the hive sight redesign!
It kinda is i thought? a1 means no para 2 bite which is huge. a2 means 1 med on bite = 4 bite which allows for good marine comm play.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/0sI7XX34fMU"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/0sI7XX34fMU" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Still uploading it .-D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
can aliens shoot through the wall? also, I presume that graphic is a placeholder?
Yes, Gorge Spit definitely does :P
The model won't load in B204, so it's probably a placeholder.
A marine tuching the Wall will be slowed down as long as he touches it.
And flamers works great for it.
Thos are things I found out in Build 203.
Design task Drifters v2.0 transitioned from Accepted to Unstarted
Noticed today (7 minutes ago) on the Progress Tracker: Accepted: Drifters v2.0 (discuss)
Design task Drifters v2.0 transitioned from Unstarted to Accepted
Noticed today (12 minutes ago) on the Progress Tracker: Unstarted: Drifters v2.0 (discuss)
Design task Drifters v2.0 transitioned from Accepted to Unstarted
Noticed today (17 minutes ago) on the Progress Tracker: Accepted: Drifters v2.0 (discuss)
Design task Drifters v2.0 transitioned from Unstarted to Accepted
Noticed today (22 minutes ago) on the Progress Tracker: Unstarted: Drifters v2.0 (discuss)
Design task Drifters v2.0 transitioned from Started to Unstarted
Noticed today (22 minutes ago) on the Progress Tracker: Accepted: Drifters v2.0 (discuss)
Design task Drifters v2.0 transitioned from Started to Accepted
Noticed today (about 2 hours ago) on the Progress Tracker: Started: Drifters v2.0 (discuss)
Design task Drifters v2.0 has appeared with status Started<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm a bit confused right now... :D What's up with the new Drifters?
Drifter train is invading the progress tracker as we speak!
Drifters goes into stage 2.0!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Noticed today (5 minutes ago) on the Progress Tracker: Accepted: Drifters v2.0 (discuss)
Design task Drifters v2.0 transitioned from Started to Accepted
Noticed today (10 minutes ago) on the Progress Tracker: Started: Drifters v2.0 (discuss)
Design task Drifters v2.0 transitioned from Accepted to Started
Noticed today (15 minutes ago) on the Progress Tracker: Accepted: Drifters v2.0 (discuss)
Design task Drifters v2.0 transitioned from Started to Accepted
Noticed today (20 minutes ago) on the Progress Tracker: Started: Drifters v2.0 (discuss)
Design task Drifters v2.0 transitioned from Accepted to Started<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
or to marine start from cave :p
Drifters goes into stage 2.0!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, that was a bug on my behalf, fixed :)
It's time for mass armories, my marines will never die.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Design task Add push-back on infantry portal and phase gate making camping little bit more difficult. has appeared with status Delivered<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been wanting this for a long time, thank you!
How will that scale for teams of various sizes? Although I suppose armories are inexpensive for their effectiveness. On the positive side, Marines will not be able to turtle for as long if they have limited health and ammo supplies.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marine/Alien armor changes (Fade swipe problem, among others)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really really hope Fades have ways to increase their damage over the course of the game. Fade is a high risk, high reward melee class. After nerfs upon nerfs, Fades are barely better than Skulks as assassins.
Seems they aim to unleash to ultimate forces of raging with this one :)
1. Energy is a terribly confusing, non-transparant resource. Players can't tell how much energy they have for action X or Y without clicking on said building. This is a big issue
2. The more energy abilities get put into the game, the less commander p.res does, alien commander is a good example of this, usually I'm sitting at 100 p.res 10 - 15 min into the game. Medpacks and aommo on energy will result in the same thing happening for marines.
3. The RTS model does not have enough depth (choices, tech, abilities) to warrant a triple resource model, it's an overly complex model for the small amount of depth that is in fact present
In the Design FAQ you claimed energy was useful and allowed for drama, I rebutted this:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To be fair, putting energy based abilities on p.res would not cut into the drama. Instead of running out of energy the commander could simply run out of p.res. (Same drama) At least with p.res it's easier to manage and keep an eye on, and it increases the p.res sinks and trade-offs/choices for both sides, which is greatly needed (particularly for the alien comm). There would also be no need for cooldowns, since there are so many other things the commanders can and probably will spend p.res on, they will never be able to just spam beacon/umbra/scan. (And even if they did, that would come at the cost of no medpacks/ammo/etc)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Remind me again why we have resources in this game?
<!--quoteo(post=1930634:date=Apr 27 2012, 01:28 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 27 2012, 01:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930634"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. The RTS model does not have enough depth (choices, tech, abilities) to warrant a triple resource model, it's an overly complex model for the small amount of depth that is in fact present<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not only that, but the resource model itself prevents depth. Compared to NS1 UWE achieved something 'funny'. They made the resource model more complex and simplistic at the same time. Complex because we now have 3 instead of 1 resource. Simplistic because having multiple non-overlapping resources requires far less decisions from the commander. But I know this has been pointed out before...
It's technically not even 3-resources, since several buildings have their own 'energy'. This means there are in fact 4 resources for the marine commander, 2 energy ones. It's just an incredibly frustrating system to coop with as a commander. So what's going to cost p.res for the marine commander? Only weapon drops. How incredibly sad.
Lower initial player res to 10<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WOOT, this made me so happy.
Heh, this change will only make it easier for marines to turtle.
Spam a few armories for infinite medpacks. Just like all the other energy powered abilities; umbra, cloak, beacon, scan.
"This will all end in tears."
- Melvin the depressed robot
1. Energy is a terribly confusing, non-transparant resource. Players can't tell how much energy they have for action X or Y without clicking on said building. This is a big issue
2. The more energy abilities get put into the game, the less commander p.res does, alien commander is a good example of this, usually I'm sitting at 100 p.res 10 - 15 min into the game. Medpacks and aommo on energy will result in the same thing happening for marines.
3. The RTS model does not have enough depth (choices, tech, abilities) to warrant a triple resource model, it's an overly complex model for the small amount of depth that is in fact present<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the problem with p.res for commander abilities is that you promote commander cycling. in case the commander abilities are too good -> common strategy for comp. games is to regularly cycle the commander to spam those abilities: you see this very good at medpacks currently. you could argue now that those p.res could have been additional weapons instead, but it is way more effective to keep marines alive which already purchased those weapons (it's cheaper long termas well for the team)
about energy: you build structures with team res. you already made here a choice: should i research another upgrade, expand or invest the resources into energy (for abilities like nano shield, medpacks, ammo). there is a moment when this investment has payed off (kept enough marines alive to succeed in a crucial push, which set back the enemies economy, for example). if this structure gets destroyed before that investment payed off, you basically lost something. so it's an investment with a risk. a good example are the sentries in sc2: they are quite expensive when you look at their DPS, but when you keep them alive long enough you can get huge advantages with their force field ability.
Not seeing your energy properly is an UI issue, not a game issue.
Now you still have the problem that tres/energy don't scale with player count, while number of medpacks should. Using pres is not the solution, as it would force commander cycling in big games. Scaling is not really an issue right now anyway, because of the server performances.
Yeah, I agree that this is a problem, but wouldn't it make sense to have all energy related things come from 1 pool of energy. If you can just build multiple armouries or observatories then you can get lots of energy for quite a low tres investment. If they all came from the 1 pool regardless of how many structures you built then it would give the com a choice, do I use beacon now and have less med packs for later? etc.
The other thing with coms not using pres is it will likely build up and then you will see them swapping out at the end to go onos or exo. Perhaps com pres shouldn't accumulate when they are in the command chair.
Every structure should have energy of some kind. It should use energy for it's basic function. (Phasegate jumps, getting healed at the armory, ect.) Even Command chairs would require energy to stay logged in. Have structures start with a small fraction of stored energy, allowing ninja structures or emergency quick structures. And structures not in a powered room/or on infestation, would have an energy drain over time.
Overuse or strain of a single structure would eventually cause a structure to be, "tired." Which means the structure has been used often enough that it needs to recharge to continue basic function. Staying in a prolonged "tired" state until it can rest for consecutive use once again.
i.e. After a certain amount of consecutive spawning, an infantry portal would need to wait a few seconds as it needs to regain energy to activate the next spawning sequence.
I think that would be fine against turtling as well. As it would give a gradual drain in defense. It would also give tradeoffs to using structure abilities.
20 medpacks > shotgun. Also its enough to have 4 marines on the field with weapons, you only need to cycle 2 players.
<!--quoteo(post=1930656:date=Apr 27 2012, 08:34 AM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Apr 27 2012, 08:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930656"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->about energy: you build structures with team res. you already made here a choice: should i research another upgrade, expand or invest the resources into energy (for abilities like nano shield, medpacks, ammo). there is a moment when this investment has payed off (kept enough marines alive to succeed in a crucial push, which set back the enemies economy, for example). if this structure gets destroyed before that investment payed off, you basically lost something. so it's an investment with a risk. a good example are the sentries in sc2: they are quite expensive when you look at their DPS, but when you keep them alive long enough you can get huge advantages with their force field ability.
Not seeing your energy properly is an UI issue, not a game issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I could simply buy 5 armories in the beginning and then have enough energy to spam med/ammo all game. Would not matter if I lost my rts I would always be able to medspam, giving me a strong early game.
Also if the game goes into the late game marines won't need rts anymore, they will have their upgrades and armories up so even if they recycled the rts they would still have a strong late game. There is also no risk in building stuff in your base.
Sentries from sc2 is also a poor examble since it is a completley diffrent thing.
NS does not have enough sustenance to support 3 resources types. Thats why it needs to change to tres+pres or tres+energy. I think tres+energy is better.
Even so you should keep energy abilities as low as possible and it should defenitly not be something as powerful as medpacks/ammo.
***
Now I'm not sure what you are trying to do. If you want a class based game where things cost energy then you could simply have passive res gain and remove rts from the game. But since this game is based on economy it makes no sens to try to make things cost enregy. I'm sorry but your game will never reach full potencial if you don't work with your core mechanics. It does more damage in the long run.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->about energy: you build structures with team res. you already made here a choice: should i research another upgrade, expand or invest the resources into energy (for abilities like nano shield, medpacks, ammo)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but the thing is that the energy is tied to structures that you would have built for other reasons regardless. I.e you don't decide to build an armory because it'll allow you medpacks and ammo, you have to build it anyway. Similarly you don't build a crag for the umbra, you build it primarily because you want an area to receive healing. This means it's not a choice for the comm, that armory is going to be built regardless.
The nutrient mist is a good example of how the energy system utterly fails, the alien khamm will ALWAYS mist the main hive to get augmentation at 6 min. There is nothing else to invest that energy in anyway. If mist cost t.res instead, we'd actually have a proper trade-off, i.e the comm could use his t.res on speeding maturation on the existing structures or could spend that t.res on further expanding/researching new upgrades.
The only bad thing about it is that it's poorly implemented since there's little choice and scales with the amount of structures you have too cheaply.
Marines could rather use a HUD element that says Resupply Energy (Medpack, Catalyst, Ammo) and Phase Energy (Scan, Beacon, Shield). Maybe that would help not having to check your structures all the time as well, which seems to be an issue.
These pools shouldn't scale with the amount of structures however! Stuff like Beacon should not be more plentiful by purchasing another structure that cheap. Maybe an additional structure only gave a smaller amount of energy, +50 or whatever to that meter, instead of doubling it.
Aliens on the other hand just lacks in the spell department, with only Nutrient Mist and Cysts to go with, where one is clearly the dominant one in the early game. They have less choice thus less strategy, but that doesn't mean that the system is bad, it's simply not feature complete enough for it to work to its full potential.