NS2 Fade - Serious Discussion
Slithers
Join Date: 2010-07-30 Member: 73368Members
Join Date: 2010-07-30 Member: 73368Members
So, my brother and I were talking about NS2 and how what we have seen so far is extremely impressive and were loving now unknownworlds is putting old school mechanics back in a next generation engine.
Our biggest concern was the fact that the fade seems very "call of duty" like. The concept on paper is a great one, no doubt, but my issue is, the whole click and auto-lock behind a target and push a button doesn't remind me so much of NS1. It reminds me of Call of Duty, a game that I and many others cannot stand because of what they represent in the gaming community today.
Call of Duty is the reason why multiplayer gaming has been destroyed from the inside out, they're all about making money, removing all the skill in the game and giving easy mode hands on abilities so newbies can feel dominating right from the gecko. I really think NS2 needs to implement the old fade bunnyhopping along with the skulk, bringing back that old vibe we all loved in NS1 and huge success games such as Counter-Strike 1.6
When the fade speeds up to a certain point, it than should start to blink on when it does massive leeps making them harder to keep track of as the person is skillfully flowing through the map shredding everyone apart. The fade was one of the reason why people loved playing Aliens, if you were good, you were dominated, it was a master skill, not a hand out one. In NS2, it seems the fade was watered down to the point that my 12 year old sister could jump on it and do quite a bit of killing after a week of play. This is what turns me and a vast majority of die hard skill based gamers now a days. The whole next generation scene isn't about "Gameplay" anymore, it's about "Graphics" first which has become a real downer the last 5-6 years.
Unknownworlds, I am not here to sabotage your right, you're definately on the right track and I love what you have done to almost everything else in the game, I just hope you reconsider your thoughts on bunnyhopping and the skill based assets that you once had in NS1 that everyone loved. I don't want to watch another game that I loved become another polished turd due to corporate take overs that just want the money in my pocket and leave me high and dry after a few months.
Thanks for listening
-Slithers
Our biggest concern was the fact that the fade seems very "call of duty" like. The concept on paper is a great one, no doubt, but my issue is, the whole click and auto-lock behind a target and push a button doesn't remind me so much of NS1. It reminds me of Call of Duty, a game that I and many others cannot stand because of what they represent in the gaming community today.
Call of Duty is the reason why multiplayer gaming has been destroyed from the inside out, they're all about making money, removing all the skill in the game and giving easy mode hands on abilities so newbies can feel dominating right from the gecko. I really think NS2 needs to implement the old fade bunnyhopping along with the skulk, bringing back that old vibe we all loved in NS1 and huge success games such as Counter-Strike 1.6
When the fade speeds up to a certain point, it than should start to blink on when it does massive leeps making them harder to keep track of as the person is skillfully flowing through the map shredding everyone apart. The fade was one of the reason why people loved playing Aliens, if you were good, you were dominated, it was a master skill, not a hand out one. In NS2, it seems the fade was watered down to the point that my 12 year old sister could jump on it and do quite a bit of killing after a week of play. This is what turns me and a vast majority of die hard skill based gamers now a days. The whole next generation scene isn't about "Gameplay" anymore, it's about "Graphics" first which has become a real downer the last 5-6 years.
Unknownworlds, I am not here to sabotage your right, you're definately on the right track and I love what you have done to almost everything else in the game, I just hope you reconsider your thoughts on bunnyhopping and the skill based assets that you once had in NS1 that everyone loved. I don't want to watch another game that I loved become another polished turd due to corporate take overs that just want the money in my pocket and leave me high and dry after a few months.
Thanks for listening
-Slithers
Comments
@Afan Perhaps but if the energy gain is lowered too much fade attack patterns gets very limited. If I had speculate how much it should use 2.5 blinks / full adreline would sound good. Reasoning behind this is that it allows you to blink once more in combat after that you need to wait 1.5-2.5sec until you get new one to get away (or risk staying longer).
Looking and feeling wrong? Fine. Bad hitbox? At least I don't think so. Every lifeform has a manageable hitbox in 3.2 in general. Fade is even being one of the better, since you can't change direction rapidly with blink and the walking speed itself is quite slow. You may argue blink is too difficult to track, which then again brings us to learning curve discussion, but the hitbox itself seems fine to me.
I'm sure there are a lot of good reasons for both of the options, no need to mix in false arguments.
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Long post, try to hang on...
As for the present blink, I don't really know. Low FPS makes snapping tricky and that's roughly what I've found in it so far.
The issues I've got with it are that it lacks fluency, rhytm and interaction.
<b>Fluency</b> are probably me being too tighly tied to the original blink, but I think those are also somewhat important factor in NS1's popularity. The combination of air curve and old blink mechanic was really pleasant when you got the hang of it. Instead of trying to play an alien, you became the alien itself in terms of movement and were free to think it from strategical, tactical and teamwork viewpoints while the movement itself was almost subconscious. It felt very precise and you could fluently adjust to different kind of spaces and situations by applying more blink or curving differently.
<b>Rhytm</b> is something very characteristic for NS movement. Due to bhop and aerial play in general, you had a certain rhytm with each lifeform. For example as a skulk every bhopper has somewhat of a pattern that usually revolves around the time he's midair and restarts on each jump. The same goes for fade blinking. Once again, for learning curve purposes it's terrible, but once you got the hang of it, it added tremendously to the feeling of the game. Moving around as a skulk, lerk or fade all have a bit different rhytms, which are at least for me a pretty essential part of the lifeform experience and really create more uniqueness for them than the vast majority of the actual abilities they use.
The present fade is more of a 'gottablinkgottablinksnappinglikecrazy'. It lacks any kind of error recovery and is basically just pushing you into a faster and faster snapping until you run out of adren or hit the blink rate of fire cap. There's no way to preserve adren apart from sitting still and you're always either a sitting duck or exiting a teleport. There's never than much sense that you're flowing through the map or that you're adjusting to the surroundings that much.
<b>Interaction</b> becomes a problem because blink is instant. You stop considering distances while entering the fights. There's no middle ground in anything. In general either you're in the fight or you're not even close to it. It's difficult to flank your retreat because you don't have to travel past any doorways or open areas. I don't know how blocking is going to work, but I doubt it's at least as intentional and viable as it is with the old flying blink.
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Now we've got the teleport blink and a lot of people seem to like it, which is great. How would I develop it further?
<b>Make blink range shorter.</b> The idea is to force fade to consider distances. A long hallway is maybe 3 blinks, your average fight entrance is 2 blinks or so. While this doesn't give any error recovery itself, it reduces the size of the possible error, since you're not going to end up very far from the intented target.
<b>Give blink momentum.</b> The idea is to give fade more movement speeds than just teleport or sitting duck. When you exit a teleport, you get launched out of it. By aiming midair you could perform dives that can either be used in less snappy travelling or attacking your target. This could give the fade some of the rhytm and fluency. The control over direction of exiting a teleport and the exact rules of preserving or gaining speed are debatable. I think it might be great if fade could control the direction of the teleport exit somehow and launch itself to exact direction it wants.
<b>Possibly make blink less instant.</b> The idea is to give fade more options than to just snap around as fast as it can. For example fade could stay in the blink dimension for a moment if necessary as long as the energy cost is extremely steep. It could be used as last resort survival method or just as a momentarily decoy that allows skulks to move in. All in all, it gives fade more interaction and adren management options.
I think one option would be to add a 'ghost' phase once you've targeted your blink. The fade would disappear and your viewpoint would be at the teleport exit. Then you could quickly aim your teleport exit and possibly even choose the amount of momentum before exiting the teleport phase itself. You could also hang in there at the cost of adren. If necessary, the autoaim can be there too.
Also, any kind of sound effects and slightest delays to communicate the blink distance and such would be sweet. Most good things give you visual feedback, teleport blink isn't very good at that.
Fade "rubber band" blink
RMB activates blink
the blink-to "target" represented by a transparent fade (optimally severely motion-blurred) starts immediately in front of the players POV
the target extends towards the players target reticule over a period of .5 seconds, leaving behind a ghost trail
once the target reaches the maximum blink distance, it snaps back towards the player like a rubber band in .25 seconds
the player can activate the blink by releasing the RMB, and jump to the target distance
if the RMB is released too late or too soon, the player will appear some distance away from their intended spot, missing the opportunity to autotarget and attack
precise timing is necessary to blink to the exact intended spot
Firstly CoD is hugely successful.
Secondly, CoD is a product of business - good game, low risk, unoriginal.
Bh and high speed games (deathmatch anyone?) are counter-intuitive to team play.
Fade would be over powered.
A team would rather be beat by more + strategy, not superman.
Bh is elitist, and would not benefit ns2 in any way.
Pc gaming is not defined by bh.
I think fade blink is fine the way it is... trying to accurately aim blink is reasonably difficult, it's not a I win button.
As CoD... sigh, I don't like it overall, but many people do, just because any mechanic is used by a 'good' game does not make it good for a different game, and just because a mechanic (or say the ability to be accessible) is used in by a 'bad' game does not make it bad for a different game.
Haha are you trying to be funny?
I find your attitude more ignorant and elitistic.
I highly doubt you can find anyone who knew decent skulk bunnyhobbing and would badmouth it.
It's absolutely ridiculous to say that things like bhop added nothing to the NS. The question is what they added, what kind of downsides they had and which parts of that knowledge can be used to make NS2 a better game. I've probably a dozen times tried to open up discussion on the elements, but people seem to be too tied to the black and white world where everything is either completely good or bad and stays that way.
As for the <b>fade discussion</b>, you can see my input a few posts above.
I also agree on this ^^, although I don't think anyone said or implied that BH didn't add anything to NS. I hope this thread doesn't go too far in just BH, the OP did seem approach the issue as one of dumbing down and loosing good mechanics (which I don't agree with but hey).
Honestly I still think we're at the point where need to play the new with mechanics enough that some players might approach 'mastery' and ask people what they think *then*, not when we're still reeling from the shock of NS2 not being the same as NS ;).
Also TrC are you actually trolling? I'm never sure but the double irony of your post makes my head explode.
I find your attitude more ignorant and elitistic.
I highly doubt you can find anyone who knew decent skulk bunnyhobbing and would badmouth it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bunny hopping/ultra-fading was the fastest way to empty servers in NS1. One guy dominates a whole team, gg this is lame go play something else. Why play a game with strategy elements when they are diminished to the point of one marine spawncamping aliens at a hive and winning the game by himself. Might as well load up a real shooter and not have to rely on teammates or slippery slope gameplay.
NS:Combat outlived the original NS mode, probably for this reason.
Edit: That said, I agree with some changes to blink, such as having a split second 'ghost phase' after a blink where you are invisible and can aim yourself (suggested by Bacillus). But if its possible, even with practice, to become near invincible.... I think this would hurt the pub servers.
"Easy to learn, Hard to master". Thou I'd like NS2 to have a kinder learning curve for new players than NS. I re-call trying to get a few of my mates to play NS 3.x, but they didn't enjoy it because of how steep and challenging the game was.
All the "old school" NS players can say "Make it hard! Bring it on!" but if UWE want to make a game successful there going to have to cater to all levels of skill without leaving anyone out. The gap level between a "noob" and a "pro" should only be so far apart.
As for fade, I think once marines get the exo-suits, an increase in FPS and probably some balancing with hit length, It will become a challenge for him.
NS:Combat outlived the original NS mode, probably for this reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If one player dominates server down then I'm sorry that the opponent is just not trying hard enough, strategy is the part where they fail hard. Chances are that player uses 10 times more time practicing than average player and who is to say he does not deserve the small edge he gains for doing so. NS1 is very flexible and there are plenty of ways to get past even more to ward away narrowminded strategy or simple movement like camping or running just aint gonna work.
Everything should not be clear after few weeks or months of play, further evolving gameplay is the most beatiful form failing to understand this is everyones own choice but dont let it lessen what a game could possible offer.
15 ENSL seasons say otherwise.
Guess will have to get use to, times have changed, i study IT in college and none of both classes ( around 40 students) do not play games on PC, it's all about console and noways games are made dull and boring for consoles and for mainstream Joe.
NS devs aim to profit as well and to do it best they have to target this average Joe.
I just hope ns1 will be around some good 10 years more.
Enlighten me?
I dont know how to bunnyhob but I have decided to hate it no matter what or
I'm asking cause I have no idea?
The faster the game, the less strategy there is. That is a fact. The brain can only process so much at once. Sure there is team play, but not the degree to which a FPSRTS game should have.
You either have a game that is a little slower, with time to think and communicate between attacks with a large emphasis on team play.
Or you have something that is more akin to death match, with players concentrating on aim, speed and kills and individual skill.
Team play by the way should involve intelligent, dynamic and interesting strategy. Be it stealth, tech tree routes, communication, supportive team work, etc..
Not just 'owning' a team collectively.
It makes for a more dynamic game if you leave room for more interesting game play dynamics because you <b>loose or win as a team</b>. Not just because one guy is a superman fade.
Also, to come on here and state CoD is killing multiplayer is a contradiction in sales. Yeah, I don't like it... because I am bored of CS clones. Does not stop it being good though.
Not saying NS1 was a bad game either, it was great. But BH was one of the few things that ruined the experience... and this is NS2 a game that should be a lot better based upon nearly a decade of progression, in both understanding of what makes online gaming great... and a improvement in technology.
You wouldnt master bHopping by playing normally, you actually had to go search and discover the steps involved in getting a bHop off... I mean you try explain how to bHop to a new player.
Lets see , ok you run forward then jump and as you are about to land you look one way and strafe the opposite way and press jump just as you land, this will give you a speed boost.
Newbie : Err... why didnt they just add a sprint button if they wanted players to go faster ?
Hmmm ... because that is too easy to learn, you need to master this skill to be a pro NS player ?
Newbie : I go play CoD 32, bye!
It is fine to add a skill that can be aquired by playing the game, not a skill that requires non intuitive movement/gamestyle to aquire... thats counter intuitive and bad design.
A skill that is first discovered by accident, and then learnt by others via social networking isnt a cool feature, its a popular glitch.
The current blink of the Fade may be easy to pull off but it does ask the player to keep an eye on thier surroundings for good blink locations, like a stack of boxes for ambusing or a vent to escape into, as they move through the map.
A bad fade will mostly likely be blinking all over the place , run out of energy and find themselves trying to run off with marines shooting the fade ass.
A good fade will use blink as a precision tool.
The old fade blink required quiet a bit of experience to handle well with fast weapon swap and rapid target aquisition after a disorientating location transfer, often a new player will try fade get 'pwnd' and not be intrested in repeating that experience in a hurry, and then get accused of being a res wh....err accused of hoarding res :P
we could also add secret key combos to do cool stuff that only 1337 players can do... no. not fun.
The faster the game, the less strategy there is. That is a fact. The brain can only process so much at once. Sure there is team play, but not the degree to which a FPSRTS game should have.
You either have a game that is a little slower, with time to think and communicate between attacks with a large emphasis on team play.
Or you have something that is more akin to death match, with players concentrating on aim, speed and kills and individual skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bacillius did us a favor by explaining this to us.
<!--quoteo(post=1810297:date=Nov 25 2010, 01:40 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Nov 25 2010, 01:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810297"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically my problem with strategical RTS games is that they very, very rarely manage to create depth necessary for any complex thinking. That's why there's the time pressure to make quick decisions, so you have to learn to think and obtain information quickly.
Chess is a brilliant game on its own category. I tremendously enjoy playing it. It has the much needed depth for it to be turn based. Meanwhile<b> I highly doubt NS2 has enough of strategical twists and turns to be interesting on any slower pace of gameplay. It's already struggling with ridiculous learning curve requiriments of modern games where every player has to get some kind of gratification within first 10 minutes of the very first game and also deal with the fact that the units on the field need their entertainment too. That's not a position where you create the most strategically complex and challenging game. </b>
If NS2 is slow and has depth, I can still command in it, no problem. However, I don't want to go into a situation where I get to make 2 repetetive larger scale strategical decisions in a 15 minute round. Much rather I'd make those 2 decisions and spend the rest of the time making smaller micro and tactical decisions and gathering small bits of information that support the large scale strategy and its decisionmaking.
Oh and calling either the commander or FPS part reactionary no-thought gameplay is kinda silly. The game requires quick thinking, not no-thinking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because pointing into direction you most likely came and pressing mouse2 requires extraordinary skills.
Blink has potential to be good but as itself its quite too simple.
Currently if you don't pay attention you will look back in the direction you just came from for example.
Currently if you don't pay attention you will look back in the direction you just came from for example.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In other words completely obvious barely aware it happens.
A bit bigger picture son.
Blink has potential to be good but as itself its quite too simple.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because the mechanics of something is simple, doesn't make it a bad thing.
Blink does need a down-side to using it, maybe a slight reduction in health per use, seeing he is probably putting his body through a lot when blinking in and out of time/space or whatnot. I would like to also see some sort of.. double-tapping for dodging left/right. Kind of like the Unreal Tournament series had, uses a moderate amount of adrenaline with fancy blur shader or something.
Because calling someone elitist because they <b>don't</b> like bunny hop is crazy. Also I never stated my opinion or abilities on BH in NS1.
EDIT - didn't read the second page before posting: some interesting points on quick-thinking and strategy, and whilst I agree fast paced games will always weigh heavier on 'skill' (as in hand eye co-ordination) than slow paced games, I also think that a fast paced game does not preclude strategic thinking. It's just about what balance you want.
Blink does need a down-side to using it, maybe a slight reduction in health per use, seeing he is probably putting his body through a lot when blinking in and out of time/space or whatnot. I would like to also see some sort of.. double-tapping for dodging left/right. Kind of like the Unreal Tournament series had, uses a moderate amount of adrenaline with fancy blur shader or something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would actually suit quite well to the Fade, and might be a good counterweight to a "nerf" of the current Blink since part of being a skilled Fade then is moved toward the dodge-stepping and Blinking <i>combined</i>.
I'm not participating in the discussion at large since I'm not experienced enough in that subject, but my own personal preference is increase the skill-cap to be a good Fade so people who feel like stepping up for the role can do that. As of right now, everyone can turn into the Fade killing-machine which will make it played in almost any situation where you have the resources for it. Hell I have almost never played Fade in NS1 because the role was scary and hard to pull off well, making Skulks or Lerks a better alternative for my style of play. Which is good! The roles should be evenly dispersed in a team so it appeals different players and really Fade is undoubtedly the form of choice for those who want a high-skillcap as this discussion show.
Of course... how high that skillcap and the benefits you can get for being that good is up for discussion, it shouldn't be the "one man army" kind.