<!--quoteo(post=1814550:date=Dec 9 2010, 02:12 PM:name=Delphic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Delphic @ Dec 9 2010, 02:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1814550"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because calling someone elitist because they <b>don't</b> like bunny hop is crazy. Also I never stated my opinion or abilities on BH in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's called frustration. You should hear me cursing when I read posts that singlehandedly ignore half of the things that have made me play NS for countless hours and write probably some 35+ articles for the ENSL and all that. I don't want to go to name calling here and I try not to tolerate too much nastiness, but I have no problem in understanding people getting frustrated if they decide to try to stick with NS2 instead of just stopping to care about it.
Can we please get back to the fade itself now? It's a lifeform that has got some potential, but I don't think it's quite up there yet.
As for the one fade army part, I think it's more about giving people better understanding and tools to deal with the fade rather than reducing the skill cap itself. On its own it's a relatively limited and vulnerable lifeform once people put it out of its comfort zone.
The problem is getting people to see further than their first person screen. That's where the fade starts hurting. Simply shooting at a hit and runner lifeform when it desires to hit isn't really a good idea, no matter if it flies or teleports.
1) I really dont want the blink to auto lock onto a target for me, what if Im trying to get away for example. Idk if this was put in for future console versions, but its out of place and clunky on PC.
2) Number of swipes it takes to take down a frontiersman. But I guess fades are more dependant on onos and number of fades attacking now rather than being self sufficient attackers. I can swipe 6-7 times (which is harder because there is no limit on marine backpedal (yet? hopefully.. ) and still get get a kill. And no, no medspam..
3) The blue smoke can blind you at times because of how dark the game can be. It's bad enough the flamethrower is like being hit in the face with infinite flash grenades (that deal damage). But trying to blink away can be tedious because of the blue blink smoke at times too.
4) The crosshair for blink. Good god I hate this thing. I can understand why this would be enabled for beginners but please for the love of.. can you put in a circle xhair that changes based on the surface youre aiming at as an alternate? (I forget what game this was. Was it arkham asylum??) I mean I get the mechanics of the thing now, I dont really need that xhair and it can be distracting and block my view of some things.
That said, the fade is great fun to play and with 1 or 2 fades I can see how the marines would have their hands full, and focus is used as a 2nd attack now? Does that mean that the other kharaa will have it too?
Ok, just reading through the posts and wow.. just wow..
1) health reduction for blink (SERIOUSLY?! Ok, how about the marines take damage for jetback!) Blink uses ADREN, THATS THE NEGATIVE TO USING IT... The day a lifeform takes damage for moving in NS2, is the day I ask for my refund.
2) the majority of you people complaining about fade are ppl that sat on combat servers. a fade is not THAT powerful in regular NS. A fade USUALLY cannot dominate a server in NS because its just not strong enough to until there are at least 2 hives and marines have to be losing badly already. And even WITH 2 hives most fades have to play carefully or end up getting shot in the ass and dead down a long hallway.
daxed post is a prime example. youre saying there was no spawn camping in combat? really?
1 marine can spawn camp a hive in NS and win the game?
lol I sincerely hope devs dont listen to inexperienced combat players when making game decisions because they are usually ill-informed or werent that good to begin with anyway. another case of x is better than me, nerf x till I can kill it.
I think that after you blink, the direction key you are pressing will be the direction you face. So if you face down a corridor to a door going left. Pressing left strafe will blink you in at that direction.
Most of the time you are blinking forward anyway.
As has been stated, you can be very clever with the fade. In fact, much cleverer than the superman fade. The only thing that 'movement model' supports is knowing the level well, and being able to move around it quickly whilst attacking.
With current fade I can:
# Blink into roof spaces through the mesh whilst being attacked - marines don't know where you have gone.
# Hide in a roof space and blink down on people.
# Blink through mesh walls (great for flanking near west hive on Rockdown).
# Make marines think I have gone left out of the doorway (but blink to opposite side after I leave).
# Etc..
Marines really have no clue to where the fade has blinked to when it does.. it leaves so many opportunities and tactical plays open.
People used to love the fade because it was a class that you could just happily whizz around dominating. That was the satisfaction, that was the reward. Not the fact that you beat the other side based upon your collective strengths.
<!--quoteo(post=1814572:date=Dec 9 2010, 03:49 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Dec 9 2010, 03:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1814572"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--># Blink into roof spaces through the mesh whilst being attacked - marines don't know where you have gone.
# Hide in a roof space and blink down on people.
# Blink through mesh walls (great for flanking near west hive on Rockdown).
# Make marines think I have gone left out of the doorway (but blink to opposite side after I leave).
# Etc..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Trickery is cool, but it should have a reason.
Getting great positional stuff is pretty minimal value when the offensive blink usage doesn't have anything to do with the positioning in general. You're going to have to blink next to the target anyway and you can do that by simply taking a corner and blinking in right away. I guess a good place for observing situation and aiming the blink is useful, but I highly doubt it alone is going to be enough.
From a marine point of view it's going to be quite one dimensional too. Either you hear where the blink finishes or you have very little options of guessing where the fade is. If it wants to get 2 hallways away from you, it can do that within a second or so.
I don't know if there's some undiscovered depth pocket somewhere in there, it could for example be related to something you just listed, but so far I'm feeling a bit worried. If only I could get manageable FPS to really test run the blink properly...
If anything right now i feel like the fade is super boring to play. I mean that secondary slow attack is just so lackluster. Fade could use some more interesting abilities than just blink and swing.
Skill cap seems to be the threads main topic; and i would be little concerned at the moment that it is a little low. Need more play testing to find the balance and where that cap should be at.
As upgrade for blink... you get a 2 second window to choose a facing direction before you phase back in, sort of solve that issue. Could argue what if you wanted to just blink and not have the wait...click to skip the 2 second window . Also be cool if you could blink again while in this still phased out window... giving you a longer duration of being hidden. The implications of this make it pretty overpowered but all about energy cost balance.
I'm sure someone has said something similar to this before its not really a fancy solution but it would work.
What about if instead of seeing your ghost where you're going to blink, you see the world through the eye's of your ghost (camera moves to ghost position) and your body stays back until you actually blink. I think that would be an interesting twist. It would also allow you to turn and orient yourself before your body makes the actual jump.
A disadvantage of that would be spying, with Fades being able to peek into rooms without having to expose themselves. On the other hand they're leaving their body behind unprotected so that sort of balances it.
It is like the opposite of how it's done now. Instead of sending something (your ghost) ahead, you're dragging something (your body) behind. Nothing would change for an outside observer, but it would play totally differently for the Fade. I know, the whole idea is maybe a bit far fetched, but I'd at least love to try it out.
<!--quoteo(post=1814541:date=Dec 9 2010, 08:13 AM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Dec 9 2010, 08:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1814541"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is fine to add a skill that can be aquired by playing the game, not a skill that requires non intuitive movement/gamestyle to aquire... thats counter intuitive and bad design. A skill that is first discovered by accident, and then learnt by others via social networking isnt a cool feature, its a popular glitch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1814587:date=Dec 9 2010, 09:24 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Dec 9 2010, 09:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1814587"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Low skills cap is fine, it is how you move yourself in space and team play that makes these games good - and skilled.
If he retreats back the same direction as me, i'll hide behind some boxes opposite to his direction.
When the marines run past, i'll spike them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know teamplay may be hard to explain however if you plan on camping and hoping marines dont check "obvious" corners you are already off the right track.
Low skill cap will ruin this game in many ways. Aliens are most melee based, meaning they rely on movement skill and class proficiency. If they have a fixed skill cap, when playing against marines with substandard aim, aliens would be overpowered. When playing against marines with good aim, they would lose quickly. You NEED movement depth and some kind of learning curve to each alien class, it makes balancing the classes against marines much easier in the long run. NS1 combined many of these points in a solid game, with good team play aspects as well. A team that worked together very fluidly could often best a team of higher overall skill. You can have both of these points, NS1 had them and NS2 most certainly should. I personally like the teleport blink mechanic, because I think it could be relatively skill based with some tweaking. The auto-aim on targets needs to go, and some way of preserving movement through the blink should be added. I would also like to see some other movement to the fade, maybe a short dash to close the last couple inches to a marine or something.
Well TrC good lucky checking every corner, vent and hole in NS2 because it is a lot more complicated than the simple boxy rooms that were NS1. If it is anything like west wing on Rockdown, it will be a nightmare for marines.
A roof space that you pretty much invulnerable when you are in it, a vent that takes you between the two front hives and roof spaces all the way to west that you can move through or hide in.
It is far easier getting kills as aliens currently than it is as marines, so I am not sure where the argument is coming from?
I knew this thread would be half and half, because I know old school gamers that know the real gameplay I am talking about are missing those days. The days of skill and mastering the game gave out a better rewarding feeling than click auto-lock kill which becomes boring fast.
If the Fade dominated in NS1, he deserved that reward, for understanding the game so well, being good at what he does and the proof is in the pudding that he is the dominating player, just like anything else in life, from sports, to racing to education, the best is the best and there is denying that.
The new Fade Blink ability, the avg "joe" will be able to compete with the very best within a few weeks, making the games skill cap off like most modern day games. I am not saying remove the blink ablity from NS2 completely, I am just asking for them to relook at it, consider bunnyhopping again because I really believe in the end, the bhop would be more fun, effective and rewarding of an experience in the end. Not to mention, with all the new flame throwers going around, I think a bunnyhopping fade is going to have alot more on his plate compared to what he had in NS1.
It's just annoying that even old school games such as Natural Selection are starting to aim towards the avg joe dumbed down combat system. It feels like everyone is just doing what the man is telling them, when they say jump, you say how hi? just to make a dollar. All I know is, all the gamers I play with, they're sick of the whole Call of Duty, World of Warcraft, Gears of War gameplay, it gets boring fast.
This is Natural Selection, this isn't CoD, so right off the bat, the person that is going to be playing NS over Call of Duty, naturally expects a more challenging gameplay with more skill based mechanics, I just feel like gaming isn't evolving anymore, it's going backwards not forwards. We have the graphics of the future, but the gameplay of Nintendo 8bit.
I never thought we would see this day, where people sell out to the man in video games too, but here we are.
The man took our books, music, movies and now video games and watered it down for the avg newb, I wish I had money to make my own game, just so I could remind people what they're really missing, the gameplay. Here is an example of what Iam talking about, this guy narrows it down to the T
Video games are a business, they have been a business for decades, when you are making a mod and are fortunate enough to not have to think about making a living then you can start worrying about artistic purity and making games only for a few people. Once it becomes your job however you have to make money off it, otherwise you don't get to do it any more.
Either UWE can remake NS1, which won't make any money and will feel exactly like the game I stopped playing years ago because I got bored of it, or they can make a new game, a popular game, a game that appeals to many people. Personally I have no interest in spending hours of my life learning how to play a game just so that I can have the non-existant satisfaction of killing people I never met in some meaningless and mindless shooting gallery. If I wanted to do that I'd be playing NS1. I also have no sympathy for people who whine about how too many people are enjoying their precious medium of choice. If the only way you an enjoy yourself is by excluding everyone else then that is entirely deplorable.
<!--quoteo(post=1814598:date=Dec 9 2010, 11:15 AM:name=Slithers)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Slithers @ Dec 9 2010, 11:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1814598"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the Fade dominated in NS1, he deserved that reward, for understanding the game so well, being good at what he does and the proof is in the pudding that he is the dominating player, just like anything else in life, from sports, to racing to education, the best is the best and there is denying that.
The new Fade Blink ability, the avg "joe" will be able to compete with the very best within a few weeks, making the games skill cap off like most modern day games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Games don't have the outrageously high skill cap anymore that allows some of the really really good players to just completely wash the floor with everyone else. What fun is that for most people? That isn't balance at all and does not encourage people to want to play and enjoy games. I think your attitude toward games is really misguided and my evidence is your example that games have been made easier to play (COD). This seems to be the bane of all hardcore gamers because it is a overkill of lowering a skill cap, which isn't bad for this game its made for people to have fun and enjoy. Hardcore gamers just fear that it is going to become the norm of the gaming industry and I would have to argue that this flat out isn't the case.
In a game that is team based, allowing one player to completely destroy a entire team is a poorly balanced game. You make the argument that its like sports; since NS2 is a team game I'd use football as a example.. it doesn't matter how freaking good you are you are not going to be able to score touchdowns entirely on your own, while you may have a huge impact its pretty insignificant to the team effort as a whole.
I'm not saying that having a high skill cap is bad, I'm saying most games do a poor job of finding that system that makes a game that is easy to play and difficult to master. I would have to say that Valve seems to do the best job of this with TF2 and L4D. The avg "joe" will not be able to compete with the very best in NS2 if it is done correctly. The new fade ability isn't a I win button by any means. The best players are going to find ways to use it really well and be able to execute those moves while a average player most likely wont be able to do it nearly as well.
I don't mean to condescend on your thread here but I just feel instead of trying to tear down NS2 that you could have offered some of your own thoughts on where to improve directly. If the post was titled.. Modern Games, skill caps, NS2; your posts would have been more on topic.
1. Lay out the issue clearly. 2. Post the positives & the negatives 3. Post something constructive that directly pertains to NS2 and give final thoughts and implications of your previous points. 4. Stay on Thread Topic
<!--quoteo(post=1814598:date=Dec 9 2010, 03:15 PM:name=Slithers)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Slithers @ Dec 9 2010, 03:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1814598"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I knew this thread would be half and half, because I know old school gamers that know the real gameplay I am talking about are missing those days. The days of skill and mastering the game gave out a better rewarding feeling than click auto-lock kill which becomes boring fast.
If the Fade dominated in NS1, he deserved that reward, for understanding the game so well, being good at what he does and the proof is in the pudding that he is the dominating player, just like anything else in life, from sports, to racing to education, the best is the best and there is denying that.
The new Fade Blink ability, the avg "joe" will be able to compete with the very best within a few weeks, making the games skill cap off like most modern day games. I am not saying remove the blink ablity from NS2 completely, I am just asking for them to relook at it, consider bunnyhopping again because I really believe in the end, the bhop would be more fun, effective and rewarding of an experience in the end. Not to mention, with all the new flame throwers going around, I think a bunnyhopping fade is going to have alot more on his plate compared to what he had in NS1.
It's just annoying that even old school games such as Natural Selection are starting to aim towards the avg joe dumbed down combat system. It feels like everyone is just doing what the man is telling them, when they say jump, you say how hi? just to make a dollar. All I know is, all the gamers I play with, they're sick of the whole Call of Duty, World of Warcraft, Gears of War gameplay, it gets boring fast.
This is Natural Selection, this isn't CoD, so right off the bat, the person that is going to be playing NS over Call of Duty, naturally expects a more challenging gameplay with more skill based mechanics, I just feel like gaming isn't evolving anymore, it's going backwards not forwards. We have the graphics of the future, but the gameplay of Nintendo 8bit.
I never thought we would see this day, where people sell out to the man in video games too, but here we are.
The man took our books, music, movies and now video games and watered it down for the avg newb, I wish I had money to make my own game, just so I could remind people what they're really missing, the gameplay. Here is an example of what Iam talking about, this guy narrows it down to the T
i disagree strongly because bhop is such a crappy way to introduce "skill" to movement in-game. it's counterintuitive and doesn't make any sense whatsoever. there's gotta be a better way to skill-move than bhop.
<!--quoteo(post=1814601:date=Dec 9 2010, 12:46 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Dec 9 2010, 12:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1814601"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Video games are a business, they have been a business for decades, when you are making a mod and are fortunate enough to not have to think about making a living then you can start worrying about artistic purity and making games only for a few people. Once it becomes your job however you have to make money off it, otherwise you don't get to do it any more.
Either UWE can remake NS1, which won't make any money and will feel exactly like the game I stopped playing years ago because I got bored of it, or they can make a new game, a popular game, a game that appeals to many people. Personally I have no interest in spending hours of my life learning how to play a game just so that I can have the non-existant satisfaction of killing people I never met in some meaningless and mindless shooting gallery. If I wanted to do that I'd be playing NS1. I also have no sympathy for people who whine about how too many people are enjoying their precious medium of choice. If the only way you an enjoy yourself is by excluding everyone else then that is entirely deplorable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
honestly through your posts I doubt youll even be playing ns2 that long.
"Personally I have no interest in spending hours of my life learning how to play a game just so that I can have the non-existant satisfaction of killing people I never met in some meaningless and mindless shooting gallery. If I wanted to do that I'd be playing NS1."
so uh... what is ns2 to you then? i guess youre going to be hopping up and down in a corner all game right?
As for the fade itself, it seems much too hard to kill right now. The fairly high health on top of the ability to just vanish out of enemy crosshairs is a bit much, so I'd favor something like 175/100 hp/ap instead of 250/150 (?) that we have now.
<!--quoteo(post=1814614:date=Dec 9 2010, 08:23 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Dec 9 2010, 08:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1814614"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->honestly through your posts I doubt youll even be playing ns2 that long.
"Personally I have no interest in spending hours of my life learning how to play a game just so that I can have the non-existant satisfaction of killing people I never met in some meaningless and mindless shooting gallery. If I wanted to do that I'd be playing NS1."
so uh... what is ns2 to you then? i guess youre going to be hopping up and down in a corner all game right?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I'll play it. I won't bother to learn how to do it perfectly and I won't join a clan or play in organised matches, but I will join games, shoot aliens, use guns like the shotgun and the flamethrower and aliens like the lerk and the nice new fade which lets me do what I want it to do with a click or two. Maybe I'll even command if they knock the stupid med/ammo spam on the head, or hell maybe I'll just command aliens.
While I don't generally play FPS games for long, NS2 looks like it might be fun for a while. Certainly more fun than black ops or similar, the melee vs ranged mechanic and the indoor closed environments has the side effect of making the game less full of stupid cheap shots. Like being shot from across the map by some 2 pixel dude the same colour as the walls. It puts you in some degree of control over the situation. Still not perfect, but better than many games.
Or maybe I'll just wait for bots and play with those.
<!--quoteo(post=1814617:date=Dec 9 2010, 08:28 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Dec 9 2010, 08:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1814617"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for the fade itself, it seems much too hard to kill right now. The fairly high health on top of the ability to just vanish out of enemy crosshairs is a bit much, so I'd favor something like 175/100 hp/ap instead of 250/150 (?) that we have now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ehh I think it needs good health because otherwise the only tough alien is the onos. Sometimes you just have to smash your way through, so the fade should be able to do that to a degree.
Possibly introduce two exclusive upgrades, one of which makes it more blinky, one of which makes it more tough and smashy. Can't get both but keeps the fade able to do both roles.
Fade might need some mild tweaks for balance (higher adren cost on blink) but I don't think it is overpowered.
Fade is an investment, I can't buy one every time I spawn. And fighting fades as a marine... Alone ... I am probably dead, again it is an investment. With someone else ... 50% chance of killing fade 3 marines ... fade is dead.
Remember not all the units and upgrades are present and no balancing has been done. Also remember we are not playing usually playing on 8 vs 8 servers. That being said. Focus on the mechanics of the abilities ... do you like the right click? or were you hoping to run your tongue over the keyboard?
The new blink is pretty awesome. I do wish it was more of a right-click and release instead of two-clicks. The abrupt switch when teleporting makes it a bit harder for newbs but the best thing i can think of is a camera mode that moves like a roller coaster to the spot you teleport too (orientation too) and then bam you are there.
But to be honest ... I don't want that fancy camera I just described. I want the rest of the units, upgrades, and DI...then we can actually start having real discussions on balance.
<!--quoteo(post=1814499:date=Dec 9 2010, 04:23 AM:name=Slithers)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Slithers @ Dec 9 2010, 04:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1814499"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...newbies can feel dominating right from the gecko.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not to get off topic but this made me laugh. Hard.
<!--quoteo(post=1814632:date=Dec 9 2010, 01:33 PM:name=kingmob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kingmob @ Dec 9 2010, 01:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1814632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do wish it was more of a right-click and release instead of two-clicks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really agree with the OP. The current blinking mechanic isn't fluid at all.
I think the auto-direction is clunky, and if there's one thing in a game that should be controlled by the player, it his own movement and look direction. I don't like that the blink picks a direction for me to look.
One thing I'd like to see, is making the blink less instantaneous. I think it should have a short charge-up, that determines distance. I think you ought to be able to blink fairly instantly, but not very far. As you hold down the mouse2, you see your fade model get further and further away until it hits the max distance. So when you press mouse2, you see your fade model move forwards quickly (sort of like ns1 blink) then slow down a bit, then stop (max distance).
Also, I think it would be better if it was mouse2 press/release instead of press/press
it takes two clicks to blink now, how will fades catch jet-packers? blinking around the marines while they are grounded might work but will they catch a moving target? In ns1 fades can catch jet-packers usually but right now I just can't see how will this work.
I do like the new blink but because you need two clicks to blink, you will have slow reactions to attacks, and once marines upgrade, level 3 tech, with slow reactions they are doomed. blinking must be limited to one click for faster reaction.
<!--quoteo(post=1814650:date=Dec 10 2010, 12:13 AM:name=FuzionMonkey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FuzionMonkey @ Dec 10 2010, 12:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1814650"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really agree with the OP. The current blinking mechanic isn't fluid at all.
One thing I'd like to see, is making the blink less instantaneous. I think it should have a short charge-up, that determines distance. I think you ought to be able to blink fairly instantly, but not very far. As you hold down the mouse2, you see your fade model get further and further away until it hits the max distance. So when you press mouse2, you see your fade model move forwards quickly (sort of like ns1 blink) then slow down a bit, then stop (max distance).
Also, I think it would be better if it was mouse2 press/release instead of press/press<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
pretty much what i said on page 1, although I'd add a skill curve to it by making timing important
<!--quoteo(post=1814651:date=Dec 9 2010, 11:20 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Dec 9 2010, 11:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1814651"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it takes two clicks to blink now, how will fades catch jet-packers? blinking around the marines while they are grounded might work but will they catch a moving target? In ns1 fades can catch jet-packers usually but right now I just can't see how will this work.
I do like the new blink but because you need two clicks to blink, you will have slow reactions to attacks, and once marines upgrade, level 3 tech, with slow reactions they are doomed. blinking must be limited to one click for faster reaction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could just not have people flying around all over the place with jetpacks.
It would work better as a super jump rather than a flying around mode.
<!--quoteo(post=1814651:date=Dec 10 2010, 12:20 AM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Dec 10 2010, 12:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1814651"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it takes two clicks to blink now, how will fades catch jet-packers? blinking around the marines while they are grounded might work but will they catch a moving target? In ns1 fades can catch jet-packers usually but right now I just can't see how will this work.
I do like the new blink but because you need two clicks to blink, you will have slow reactions to attacks, and once marines upgrade, level 3 tech, with slow reactions they are doomed. blinking must be limited to one click for faster reaction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fades became the counter to jet-packs only because their initial teleport blink had to be taken away and replaced with the fast movement, since the HL engine didn't work too well with teleport.
Comments
It's called frustration. You should hear me cursing when I read posts that singlehandedly ignore half of the things that have made me play NS for countless hours and write probably some 35+ articles for the ENSL and all that. I don't want to go to name calling here and I try not to tolerate too much nastiness, but I have no problem in understanding people getting frustrated if they decide to try to stick with NS2 instead of just stopping to care about it.
Can we please get back to the fade itself now? It's a lifeform that has got some potential, but I don't think it's quite up there yet.
As for the one fade army part, I think it's more about giving people better understanding and tools to deal with the fade rather than reducing the skill cap itself. On its own it's a relatively limited and vulnerable lifeform once people put it out of its comfort zone.
The problem is getting people to see further than their first person screen. That's where the fade starts hurting. Simply shooting at a hit and runner lifeform when it desires to hit isn't really a good idea, no matter if it flies or teleports.
1) I really dont want the blink to auto lock onto a target for me, what if Im trying to get away for example. Idk if this was put in for future console versions, but its out of place and clunky on PC.
2) Number of swipes it takes to take down a frontiersman. But I guess fades are more dependant on onos and number of fades attacking now rather than being self sufficient attackers. I can swipe 6-7 times (which is harder because there is no limit on marine backpedal (yet? hopefully.. ) and still get get a kill. And no, no medspam..
3) The blue smoke can blind you at times because of how dark the game can be. It's bad enough the flamethrower is like being hit in the face with infinite flash grenades (that deal damage). But trying to blink away can be tedious because of the blue blink smoke at times too.
4) The crosshair for blink. Good god I hate this thing. I can understand why this would be enabled for beginners but please for the love of.. can you put in a circle xhair that changes based on the surface youre aiming at as an alternate? (I forget what game this was. Was it arkham asylum??) I mean I get the mechanics of the thing now, I dont really need that xhair and it can be distracting and block my view of some things.
That said, the fade is great fun to play and with 1 or 2 fades I can see how the marines would have their hands full, and focus is used as a 2nd attack now? Does that mean that the other kharaa will have it too?
1) health reduction for blink (SERIOUSLY?! Ok, how about the marines take damage for jetback!) Blink uses ADREN, THATS THE NEGATIVE TO USING IT... The day a lifeform takes damage for moving in NS2, is the day I ask for my refund.
2) the majority of you people complaining about fade are ppl that sat on combat servers. a fade is not THAT powerful in regular NS. A fade USUALLY cannot dominate a server in NS because its just not strong enough to until there are at least 2 hives and marines have to be losing badly already. And even WITH 2 hives most fades have to play carefully or end up getting shot in the ass and dead down a long hallway.
daxed post is a prime example. youre saying there was no spawn camping in combat? really?
1 marine can spawn camp a hive in NS and win the game?
lol I sincerely hope devs dont listen to inexperienced combat players when making game decisions because they are usually ill-informed or werent that good to begin with anyway. another case of x is better than me, nerf x till I can kill it.
1. Confusion when you come out of the blink
2. Blink lock
I think that after you blink, the direction key you are pressing will be the direction you face. So if you face down a corridor to a door going left. Pressing left strafe will blink you in at that direction.
Most of the time you are blinking forward anyway.
As has been stated, you can be very clever with the fade. In fact, much cleverer than the superman fade. The only thing that 'movement model' supports is knowing the level well, and being able to move around it quickly whilst attacking.
With current fade I can:
# Blink into roof spaces through the mesh whilst being attacked - marines don't know where you have gone.
# Hide in a roof space and blink down on people.
# Blink through mesh walls (great for flanking near west hive on Rockdown).
# Make marines think I have gone left out of the doorway (but blink to opposite side after I leave).
# Etc..
Marines really have no clue to where the fade has blinked to when it does.. it leaves so many opportunities and tactical plays open.
People used to love the fade because it was a class that you could just happily whizz around dominating. That was the satisfaction, that was the reward. Not the fact that you beat the other side based upon your collective strengths.
I was just throwing that in because people are complaining that blink is too simple (I personally like it as is).
# Hide in a roof space and blink down on people.
# Blink through mesh walls (great for flanking near west hive on Rockdown).
# Make marines think I have gone left out of the doorway (but blink to opposite side after I leave).
# Etc..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Trickery is cool, but it should have a reason.
Getting great positional stuff is pretty minimal value when the offensive blink usage doesn't have anything to do with the positioning in general. You're going to have to blink next to the target anyway and you can do that by simply taking a corner and blinking in right away. I guess a good place for observing situation and aiming the blink is useful, but I highly doubt it alone is going to be enough.
From a marine point of view it's going to be quite one dimensional too. Either you hear where the blink finishes or you have very little options of guessing where the fade is. If it wants to get 2 hallways away from you, it can do that within a second or so.
I don't know if there's some undiscovered depth pocket somewhere in there, it could for example be related to something you just listed, but so far I'm feeling a bit worried. If only I could get manageable FPS to really test run the blink properly...
Skill cap seems to be the threads main topic; and i would be little concerned at the moment that it is a little low. Need more play testing to find the balance and where that cap should be at.
As upgrade for blink... you get a 2 second window to choose a facing direction before you phase back in, sort of solve that issue. Could argue what if you wanted to just blink and not have the wait...click to skip the 2 second window . Also be cool if you could blink again while in this still phased out window... giving you a longer duration of being hidden. The implications of this make it pretty overpowered but all about energy cost balance.
I'm sure someone has said something similar to this before its not really a fancy solution but it would work.
A disadvantage of that would be spying, with Fades being able to peek into rooms without having to expose themselves. On the other hand they're leaving their body behind unprotected so that sort of balances it.
It is like the opposite of how it's done now. Instead of sending something (your ghost) ahead, you're dragging something (your body) behind. Nothing would change for an outside observer, but it would play totally differently for the Fade. I know, the whole idea is maybe a bit far fetched, but I'd at least love to try it out.
A skill that is first discovered by accident, and then learnt by others via social networking isnt a cool feature, its a popular glitch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sigged for great and everlasting truthiness
For instance - How a Fade will go in for attack, and i'll fire spores at him (for cover in retreat).
If he retreats back the same direction as me, i'll hide behind some boxes opposite to his direction.
When the marines run past, i'll spike them.
There are plenty of nifty things you can do 'as a team' from the way the classes complement each other.
Much like L4D2, I would like to see this happen more but in a less restrictive way.
As for the Fade secondary attack, you are not wrong... I think it could possess a more unique ability.
If he retreats back the same direction as me, i'll hide behind some boxes opposite to his direction.
When the marines run past, i'll spike them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know teamplay may be hard to explain however if you plan on camping and hoping marines dont check "obvious" corners you are already off the right track.
A roof space that you pretty much invulnerable when you are in it, a vent that takes you between the two front hives and roof spaces all the way to west that you can move through or hide in.
It is far easier getting kills as aliens currently than it is as marines, so I am not sure where the argument is coming from?
If the Fade dominated in NS1, he deserved that reward, for understanding the game so well, being good at what he does and the proof is in the pudding that he is the dominating player, just like anything else in life, from sports, to racing to education, the best is the best and there is denying that.
The new Fade Blink ability, the avg "joe" will be able to compete with the very best within a few weeks, making the games skill cap off like most modern day games. I am not saying remove the blink ablity from NS2 completely, I am just asking for them to relook at it, consider bunnyhopping again because I really believe in the end, the bhop would be more fun, effective and rewarding of an experience in the end. Not to mention, with all the new flame throwers going around, I think a bunnyhopping fade is going to have alot more on his plate compared to what he had in NS1.
It's just annoying that even old school games such as Natural Selection are starting to aim towards the avg joe dumbed down combat system. It feels like everyone is just doing what the man is telling them, when they say jump, you say how hi? just to make a dollar. All I know is, all the gamers I play with, they're sick of the whole Call of Duty, World of Warcraft, Gears of War gameplay, it gets boring fast.
This is Natural Selection, this isn't CoD, so right off the bat, the person that is going to be playing NS over Call of Duty, naturally expects a more challenging gameplay with more skill based mechanics, I just feel like gaming isn't evolving anymore, it's going backwards not forwards. We have the graphics of the future, but the gameplay of Nintendo 8bit.
I never thought we would see this day, where people sell out to the man in video games too, but here we are.
The man took our books, music, movies and now video games and watered it down for the avg newb, I wish I had money to make my own game, just so I could remind people what they're really missing, the gameplay. Here is an example of what Iam talking about, this guy narrows it down to the T
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7VAhzPcZ-s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7VAhzPcZ-s</a>
Enjoy
Either UWE can remake NS1, which won't make any money and will feel exactly like the game I stopped playing years ago because I got bored of it, or they can make a new game, a popular game, a game that appeals to many people. Personally I have no interest in spending hours of my life learning how to play a game just so that I can have the non-existant satisfaction of killing people I never met in some meaningless and mindless shooting gallery. If I wanted to do that I'd be playing NS1. I also have no sympathy for people who whine about how too many people are enjoying their precious medium of choice. If the only way you an enjoy yourself is by excluding everyone else then that is entirely deplorable.
The new Fade Blink ability, the avg "joe" will be able to compete with the very best within a few weeks, making the games skill cap off like most modern day games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Games don't have the outrageously high skill cap anymore that allows some of the really really good players to just completely wash the floor with everyone else. What fun is that for most people? That isn't balance at all and does not encourage people to want to play and enjoy games. I think your attitude toward games is really misguided and my evidence is your example that games have been made easier to play (COD). This seems to be the bane of all hardcore gamers because it is a overkill of lowering a skill cap, which isn't bad for this game its made for people to have fun and enjoy. Hardcore gamers just fear that it is going to become the norm of the gaming industry and I would have to argue that this flat out isn't the case.
In a game that is team based, allowing one player to completely destroy a entire team is a poorly balanced game. You make the argument that its like sports; since NS2 is a team game I'd use football as a example.. it doesn't matter how freaking good you are you are not going to be able to score touchdowns entirely on your own, while you may have a huge impact its pretty insignificant to the team effort as a whole.
I'm not saying that having a high skill cap is bad, I'm saying most games do a poor job of finding that system that makes a game that is easy to play and difficult to master. I would have to say that Valve seems to do the best job of this with TF2 and L4D. The avg "joe" will not be able to compete with the very best in NS2 if it is done correctly. The new fade ability isn't a I win button by any means. The best players are going to find ways to use it really well and be able to execute those moves while a average player most likely wont be able to do it nearly as well.
I don't mean to condescend on your thread here but I just feel instead of trying to tear down NS2 that you could have offered some of your own thoughts on where to improve directly. If the post was titled.. Modern Games, skill caps, NS2; your posts would have been more on topic.
1. Lay out the issue clearly.
2. Post the positives & the negatives
3. Post something constructive that directly pertains to NS2 and give final thoughts and implications of your previous points.
4. Stay on Thread Topic
If the Fade dominated in NS1, he deserved that reward, for understanding the game so well, being good at what he does and the proof is in the pudding that he is the dominating player, just like anything else in life, from sports, to racing to education, the best is the best and there is denying that.
The new Fade Blink ability, the avg "joe" will be able to compete with the very best within a few weeks, making the games skill cap off like most modern day games. I am not saying remove the blink ablity from NS2 completely, I am just asking for them to relook at it, consider bunnyhopping again because I really believe in the end, the bhop would be more fun, effective and rewarding of an experience in the end. Not to mention, with all the new flame throwers going around, I think a bunnyhopping fade is going to have alot more on his plate compared to what he had in NS1.
It's just annoying that even old school games such as Natural Selection are starting to aim towards the avg joe dumbed down combat system. It feels like everyone is just doing what the man is telling them, when they say jump, you say how hi? just to make a dollar. All I know is, all the gamers I play with, they're sick of the whole Call of Duty, World of Warcraft, Gears of War gameplay, it gets boring fast.
This is Natural Selection, this isn't CoD, so right off the bat, the person that is going to be playing NS over Call of Duty, naturally expects a more challenging gameplay with more skill based mechanics, I just feel like gaming isn't evolving anymore, it's going backwards not forwards. We have the graphics of the future, but the gameplay of Nintendo 8bit.
I never thought we would see this day, where people sell out to the man in video games too, but here we are.
The man took our books, music, movies and now video games and watered it down for the avg newb, I wish I had money to make my own game, just so I could remind people what they're really missing, the gameplay. Here is an example of what Iam talking about, this guy narrows it down to the T
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7VAhzPcZ-s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7VAhzPcZ-s</a>
Enjoy<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i disagree strongly because bhop is such a crappy way to introduce "skill" to movement in-game. it's counterintuitive and doesn't make any sense whatsoever. there's gotta be a better way to skill-move than bhop.
Either UWE can remake NS1, which won't make any money and will feel exactly like the game I stopped playing years ago because I got bored of it, or they can make a new game, a popular game, a game that appeals to many people. Personally I have no interest in spending hours of my life learning how to play a game just so that I can have the non-existant satisfaction of killing people I never met in some meaningless and mindless shooting gallery. If I wanted to do that I'd be playing NS1. I also have no sympathy for people who whine about how too many people are enjoying their precious medium of choice. If the only way you an enjoy yourself is by excluding everyone else then that is entirely deplorable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
honestly through your posts I doubt youll even be playing ns2 that long.
"Personally I have no interest in spending hours of my life learning how to play a game just so that I can have the non-existant satisfaction of killing people I never met in some meaningless and mindless shooting gallery. If I wanted to do that I'd be playing NS1."
so uh... what is ns2 to you then? i guess youre going to be hopping up and down in a corner all game right?
"Personally I have no interest in spending hours of my life learning how to play a game just so that I can have the non-existant satisfaction of killing people I never met in some meaningless and mindless shooting gallery. If I wanted to do that I'd be playing NS1."
so uh... what is ns2 to you then? i guess youre going to be hopping up and down in a corner all game right?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I'll play it. I won't bother to learn how to do it perfectly and I won't join a clan or play in organised matches, but I will join games, shoot aliens, use guns like the shotgun and the flamethrower and aliens like the lerk and the nice new fade which lets me do what I want it to do with a click or two. Maybe I'll even command if they knock the stupid med/ammo spam on the head, or hell maybe I'll just command aliens.
While I don't generally play FPS games for long, NS2 looks like it might be fun for a while. Certainly more fun than black ops or similar, the melee vs ranged mechanic and the indoor closed environments has the side effect of making the game less full of stupid cheap shots. Like being shot from across the map by some 2 pixel dude the same colour as the walls. It puts you in some degree of control over the situation. Still not perfect, but better than many games.
Or maybe I'll just wait for bots and play with those.
<!--quoteo(post=1814617:date=Dec 9 2010, 08:28 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Dec 9 2010, 08:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1814617"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for the fade itself, it seems much too hard to kill right now. The fairly high health on top of the ability to just vanish out of enemy crosshairs is a bit much, so I'd favor something like 175/100 hp/ap instead of 250/150 (?) that we have now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ehh I think it needs good health because otherwise the only tough alien is the onos. Sometimes you just have to smash your way through, so the fade should be able to do that to a degree.
Possibly introduce two exclusive upgrades, one of which makes it more blinky, one of which makes it more tough and smashy. Can't get both but keeps the fade able to do both roles.
Fade is an investment, I can't buy one every time I spawn.
And fighting fades as a marine...
Alone ... I am probably dead, again it is an investment.
With someone else ... 50% chance of killing fade
3 marines ... fade is dead.
Remember not all the units and upgrades are present and no balancing has been done.
Also remember we are not playing usually playing on 8 vs 8 servers.
That being said.
Focus on the mechanics of the abilities ... do you like the right click? or were you hoping to run your tongue over the keyboard?
The new blink is pretty awesome.
I do wish it was more of a right-click and release instead of two-clicks.
The abrupt switch when teleporting makes it a bit harder for newbs but the best thing i can think of
is a camera mode that moves like a roller coaster to the spot you teleport too (orientation too) and then bam you are there.
But to be honest ... I don't want that fancy camera I just described.
I want the rest of the units, upgrades, and DI...then we can actually start having real discussions on balance.
Not to get off topic but this made me laugh. Hard.
I would also like to see that implemented.
I think the auto-direction is clunky, and if there's one thing in a game that should be controlled by the player, it his own movement and look direction. I don't like that the blink picks a direction for me to look.
One thing I'd like to see, is making the blink less instantaneous. I think it should have a short charge-up, that determines distance. I think you ought to be able to blink fairly instantly, but not very far. As you hold down the mouse2, you see your fade model get further and further away until it hits the max distance. So when you press mouse2, you see your fade model move forwards quickly (sort of like ns1 blink) then slow down a bit, then stop (max distance).
Also, I think it would be better if it was mouse2 press/release instead of press/press
I do like the new blink but because you need two clicks to blink, you will have slow reactions to attacks, and once marines upgrade, level 3 tech, with slow reactions they are doomed. blinking must be limited to one click for faster reaction.
One thing I'd like to see, is making the blink less instantaneous. I think it should have a short charge-up, that determines distance. I think you ought to be able to blink fairly instantly, but not very far. As you hold down the mouse2, you see your fade model get further and further away until it hits the max distance. So when you press mouse2, you see your fade model move forwards quickly (sort of like ns1 blink) then slow down a bit, then stop (max distance).
Also, I think it would be better if it was mouse2 press/release instead of press/press<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
pretty much what i said on page 1, although I'd add a skill curve to it by making timing important
I do like the new blink but because you need two clicks to blink, you will have slow reactions to attacks, and once marines upgrade, level 3 tech, with slow reactions they are doomed. blinking must be limited to one click for faster reaction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could just not have people flying around all over the place with jetpacks.
It would work better as a super jump rather than a flying around mode.
I do like the new blink but because you need two clicks to blink, you will have slow reactions to attacks, and once marines upgrade, level 3 tech, with slow reactions they are doomed. blinking must be limited to one click for faster reaction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fades became the counter to jet-packs only because their initial teleport blink had to be taken away and replaced with the fast movement, since the HL engine didn't work too well with teleport.