Yeah, I was having trouble finding a better real-life analogy.
Now, actually address my point maybe? <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The ready room is [] not part of the game experience. The game experience begins when it says "the match is now starting". No breaking of fourth wall involved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your point is ridiculous semantics, I thought we went over this already. It's like saying (to stick with the book analogies) "the prologue isn't part of the reading experience. The reading experience doesn't start until the first chapter."
By the way, when I say "breaking the fourth wall" this is exactly what I'm talking about:
<!--quoteo(post=1825157:date=Jan 18 2011, 02:54 AM:name=Evil_bOb1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_bOb1 @ Jan 18 2011, 02:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825157"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->when the game ends people rejoin rr personified by the class they were playing, which personally i find very amusing to see. <b>It reminds me this is just a game </b>and in the rr, marines and aliens can still get along.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
whether its ridiculous semantics, theres obviously a few people who feel that way.
everyone seems to agree on rejoining the ready room as the class they were playing. nobody questions it and everyone enjoys it which im guessing is already in or will be put in (ive not played since the first version of the alpha). so then your problem is only on the first round. zex finds all marine models illogical, but having the models assigned randomly is just as illogical. separate ready rooms is a waste of time, theres no need for a ready room if you;ve chosen your team
trying to make sense out of situation will get us nowhere. instead if uwe want to change it, id suggest being about to choose your initial spawn model (kinda like choosing your own spray tag in hl1), like an avatar thing. the selection could even include structures to make it a bit more ridiculous/fun. this would only be for the first round though so its probably a bit too much effort for something so small and irrelevant.
<!--quoteo(post=1824910:date=Jan 16 2011, 11:56 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 16 2011, 11:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824910"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not really a "neutral" character though, it's one of the two teams. And I'm not sure why you think segregated RRs makes less sense, it seems to me that one would expect two groups fighting each other to be separated before the fight starts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Segregated RRs doesn't make sense because at the start, people are going to be randomly assigned to them, but this has no bearing on which team they pick, so why bother splitting them into arbitrary groups?
For after a round has occured, the single ready room from my experience is a good reminder that you aren't the dire enemy of the other team, you're all playing the same game for fun, something which I don't find in a lot of games. If you really want to isolate players after that you still have players keeping their old models when they go back to the RR.
It's hardly semantics. It's about understanding the concept, which you seem unable to do. The RR is not part of the game, so it doesn't need to be rationalised. Understand this, and move on.
<!--quoteo(post=1825341:date=Jan 19 2011, 05:26 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 19 2011, 05:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825341"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's hardly semantics. It's about understanding the concept, which you seem unable to do. The RR is not part of the game, so it doesn't need to be rationalised. Understand this, and move on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So to take a page out of your book (lol), "how about addressing my point?" To say that a team selection menu isn't "part of the game" is the same as saying a book's prologue isn't part of a book because it is found before the first chapter- it's ridiculous in both cases. You brought up the book analogy so I'm assuming you can figure out the logic being used here.
edit - yet another example of the RR breaking the fourth wall:
<!--quoteo(post=1825225:date=Jan 18 2011, 04:36 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 18 2011, 04:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825225"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the single ready room from my experience is a good <b>reminder </b>that you aren't the dire enemy of the other team, <b>you're all playing the same game </b>for fun, something which I don't find in a lot of games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't find fourth-wall breakage in a lot of games because it is considered amateurish. If it is done, it's done obviously intentionally and generally for the sake of humor.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
This idea of a fourth wall is one of those things that I would consider amateurish. Its a book rule and it makes people believe that if its not by the book, then it is not right. To me if you play by the book you are an amateur (and you have no soul!!). I recently read this statement that a society that teaches annihilates creativity in contradiction to a society that learns and I truly believe it. NS is not something brought by teachings it is something brought by learnings. I think the NS2 development team is too passionate about their project, they are not doing things by the book, they are pursuing a vision. My interpretation of that vision is they are trying to make a video game that accepts itself for what it is. Their ambitions are too concerned about what it is to be thinking of what it isn't, and i don't think they have the arrogance to suggest that it is anything more than a game.
I personally am very attached to this project because it is just that, a game. Something I can play to have fun, and not just a generic experience justified by its unique visuals and special effects. I don't need to be reminded that I have to believe in a fiction to make this experience worthwhile. I think the readyroom is truly an example of how NS is a work of art. It doesn't go by the rules, it makes its rules. It is a product of passion and not cold professionalism. The readyroom truly shows the intention of the team. This is a game where we enjoy ourselves and who cares if it doesn't make sense.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2011
Jeez, is this still going on!
You have three points right zex? 1. The RR is breaking the fourth wall or messing with the storyline... 2. The RR is part of the game in progress 3. The RR is confusing for newbies with, joining teams while being marine. We need Segregated RR's
<ol type='1'><li>I do agree with it messing up the storyline to some extend. As I already said, my maps have RR's tied into the Marine Start and ns_hera does something similar. But this point you're making is simply an opinion, with no good solution other then to revert back to a boring join menu, I guess <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/tongue.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
</li><li>The RR is simply a creative replacement for a team selection menu. Using the TF2 RR's as an example:
The TF2 RR's are indeed part of the gameplay as you have to participate in the game and actually win to keep them safe from the enemy team. And to even get into these RR's you have to choose a team from the team selection menu. You can even kill players camping in these RR's from within the gameplay area, while the game is being played.
Compare this to the NS RR, it becomes very obvious the NS RR is not part of the game at all. You can't influence anything in the NS RR, while being in the gameplay area. Just like you can't do anything to the "spectators" on the join menu screen... You could sit in the menu or the NS RR throughout the entire round never having any impact at all on the game in progress... Sure it is part of the game, but it is not part of the game in progress. If it was, you could even state that the server browser, the game shortcut or even the friggin' power button on the pc you have the game installed on is part of the gameplay.
The actual "RR" in NS/NS2 comparable to the TF2 RR and actually part of the game are obviously the Main Hive and the Marine Start... However you can't join teams from here, which takes us to your third point ->
</li><li>Onto your point of it being confusing for newbies. Don't you think it would be more confusing for new players to have them randomly segregated into an alien or marine RR or maybe even directly putting them in the Main Hive or the Marine Start? They would obviously start complaining about the fact it is not clear how to join the other team...
Fact is: There has to be a team selection at the start right after joining a server, in our case we have the RR instead of a menu...</li></ol>
<!--quoteo(post=1825468:date=Jan 19 2011, 09:01 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 19 2011, 09:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825468"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do agree with it messing up the storyline to some extend.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks
<!--quoteo(post=1825468:date=Jan 19 2011, 09:01 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 19 2011, 09:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825468"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The RR is simply a creative replacement for a team selection menu.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, as I and many others have said before. And also as I said, it's like a team selection menu where the button you click on to join the alien team is a picture of a human.
<!--quoteo(post=1825468:date=Jan 19 2011, 09:01 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 19 2011, 09:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825468"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->part of the gameplay...not part of the game at all... Sure it is part of the game...not part of the game in progress... part of the gameplay...part of the game<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What the hell is your point here? You're bringing us back to an argument which is OVER and you even conceded in the first sentence of your post. Someone said the RR doesn't mess with the storyline or break the fourth wall because it isn't "part of the game." You say it is part of the game (and not part of the game), but again you start your post by saying you agree it messes up the storyline so what are you trying to prove by splitting hairs?
<!--quoteo(post=1825468:date=Jan 19 2011, 09:01 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 19 2011, 09:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825468"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Onto your point of it being confusing for newbies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You mean on to the zombie straw man that won't die even tho I've said 3 or 4 times by now I don't think it's "confusing" for newbies? Why?
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2011
Selective quoting are we...
Here you go:
The word used for the RR is wrong, that's all. It should be a Lobby, because that is in fact it's function. Also it has no relation to the GAMEPLAY, while it is still part of the GAME, that's what I meant <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/wink.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Sure I tried with my maps and so did ns_hera, but those are still from a TSA perspective. Which get's messed up by the alien portal and the on round end spawnback as class you were during that round. I think nancy and other maps which used bar had it right even though tying them to the map seems more awesome still. It is an opinion and will always be, the mapper decides how much the RR is related to the map...
The real Ready Rooms are actually the Marine Start and the Main Hive, but they already have awesome names. Let's just keep our lobby as Ready Room shall we. Also on initial spawn we are marines, because that is in fact "team 1" and since this is a lobby with no actual relation to the map, there is no "fourth wall" breakage, well the wall might crack somewhat if the mapper decided to tie it to the map's stoyline from one team's perspective. But a crack is not that bad...
<!--quoteo(post=1825543:date=Jan 20 2011, 12:59 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 20 2011, 12:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825543"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also it has no relation to the GAMEPLAY, while it is still part of the GAME, that's what I meant<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, but you still haven't explained why you think it is necessary or relevant to bring this up when you've already invalidated the only reason it was discussed in the context of this thread...
edit- <!--quoteo(post=1825543:date=Jan 20 2011, 12:59 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 20 2011, 12:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825543"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->since this is a lobby with no actual relation to the map, there is no "fourth wall" breakage<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The multiple examples of other people stating point blank it breaks the fourth wall (and thats why they like it) are invalid because you're inventing a pointless distinction between "being part of the game" and "gameplay?" No.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2011
...
The gameplay remark is simply addressing your point of "actually being part of the gameplay, while in the RR". In fact the game is not played in the RR but in the map. Sure you are technically playing a the game by starting it up and only hopping around in the RR. But you are NOT participating in the real game, which is behind the join portals.
All of which could be replaced by a join team menu, but this 3D lobby is much nicer then having a simple menu like most games...
That aside, because it is not part of the actual gameplay (in the map) and just a lobby (called Ready Room) its not breaking the fourth wall at all. As I said, it might crack a little if the RR has a specific map related theme (tying them together). But at a first glance of the room and it's join signs it is blatantly obvious it is just a lobby to join teams not related to the theme or storyline of the map at all (mapper choice of course). So how is this less professional then a simple join teams menu... Again initial spawn as a marine is good because we're human and it is "team 1" add to this fact that rigging/texturing/modeling a completely new civilian model from scratch for a very small part of the game is just misdirecting the scarce resources of the small UWE team...
If it wasn't an issue at all in NS, why should it be an issue in NS2... Professionalism and polish? I really don't think the majority of gamers don't care at all for this very short run to the join signs... This is not to say they don't get it as you seem to imply, they simply do not care, besides it's retro and more fun then looking at a scoreboard on round end as well...
[edit] Selective quoting and stuff which is probably going to follow is not of my interest anymore. The topic has been discussed and most if not all seem to disagree with you... Majority rules, meaning /thread
<!--quoteo(post=1825563:date=Jan 20 2011, 02:00 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 20 2011, 02:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825563"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That aside, because it is not part of the actual gameplay (in the map) and just a lobby (called Ready Room) its not breaking the fourth wall at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See, you aren't addressing my point at all, you are just repeating this trivial semantic difference as if it proves anything and then ignoring the clear cut evidence that totally contradicts what you are saying.<b> Multiple people aside from me have said the RR breaks the fourth wall for them</b> (and they like it because of that). You yourself have said it is "<b>messing up the storyline</b>" (why?). So why, given your disdain for this discussion, do you keep derailing it with wall-of-text posts that debunk themselves?
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2011
sigh!
Only if the RR is related to the map (story based/tied into the map's theme), seriously READ before POSTING! And even then it is only cracking the wall, making it even less of an issue...
The RR is a tradition, and it doesn't fit into the game because it really doesn't need to. It's just a 3D selection room instead of a bland 2D menu. If it really hurts the feel to the game, I'm sure you could mod a UI to block the RR for you if you really don't like the feel, but I really don't see a need to change it and at the most add an option to turn it off because it's a legacy thing for pre/postgame talks, people like to move around (especially when try to "stack" a team waiting for an even player team count), etc. If you don't like it they should at most allow an option for a mapper or client, but just eliminating them all together after it's been made is really unnecessary. You could successfully argue that the RR doesn't fit per say but it's hard to find the number of people who actually care (mainly you) so it's really probably going to stay, for better or worse. I really doubt players will be turned off because the copypaste 2D team selection menu is replaced with a 3D lobby that you can hotkey onto a team anyways.
<!--quoteo(post=1825569:date=Jan 20 2011, 03:02 AM:name=brownymaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (brownymaster @ Jan 20 2011, 03:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->just eliminating them all together after it's been made is really unnecessary<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, and I never suggested it should be eliminated. One person did say it should just be a menu but t hat may or may not have been sarcasm.
edit - just had yet another brainstorm of how it could be made logically consistent but retain its purpose as a pre-game chat room...
- menu-based team selection, "join alien RR" and "join space marine RR" + "auto select team" based on player count - whichever team you pick, you will spawn in the same room as everyone else, but everyone will be themed correctly i.e. if you "join alien RR" everyone will show up as a skulk on your screen regardless of what team they picked - instead of two team select doorways, there will be a "ready" doorway and a "switch team" doorway - if you enter the "switch team" doorway, you will be respawned in the RR with everyone themed correctly to the team you just joined
<!--quoteo(post=1825576:date=Jan 20 2011, 03:34 AM:name=Loey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Loey @ Jan 20 2011, 03:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825576"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->as said before, if you;ve selected your team already, then you;re ready to play and the ready room is pointless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As said before, the ready room is more of a lobby for socializing than a simple team selection menu... if it was just a menu, then removing player models entirely would make more sense than making it appear as if everyone was on the marine team before they pick a team. This has been discussed ad nauseum for the first 5 or 6 pages of this thread.
<!--quoteo(post=1824162:date=Jan 14 2011, 01:12 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Jan 14 2011, 01:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824162"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The ready room<u> is for some quick socializing</u> before the next round<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1824296:date=Jan 14 2011, 11:15 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 14 2011, 11:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824296"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the ready room is <u>a lobby</u>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1824355:date=Jan 14 2011, 06:18 PM:name=Feha)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Feha @ Jan 14 2011, 06:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824355"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it allows you to be able of not participating in the game, but still<u> jump around randomly</u><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1824449:date=Jan 15 2011, 12:35 AM:name=Shilorius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shilorius @ Jan 15 2011, 12:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824449"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nobody mentioned yet that the readyroom is also <u>some social point</u>. I remember in the beginning of NS1 sometimes I joined a server and everybody was<u> standing in the Readyroom just chatting.</u><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Basically (in the scenario I invented) the point would be providing a way to socialize while you wait for the server to fill up, or wait for the teams to be balanced.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2011
Everyone being marines on initial start of the map... so this is basically your only grudge with the RR being "non canon". You've got to ask yourself just this simple question...
Does it really matter that much to lose <b>a very unique</b> and perfectly working system as proved by NS?
I for one have never heard any complaints from NS newbies at all, so where is this concern coming from? It is lacking substance zex and only based on your opinion, while the general public does not care at all. Also your proposal, while a good attempt, just adds one more step to the process with two new ready rooms, while we already have two ready rooms (MS and Hive)
<!--quoteo(post=1825586:date=Jan 20 2011, 04:05 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 20 2011, 04:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825586"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->your proposal, while a good attempt, just adds one more step to the process with two new ready rooms, while we already have two ready rooms (MS and Hive)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is a valid critique, but is that extra click really a big deal?
Currently (AFAIK):
-join server -walk to a team select door when ready
My proposal:
-join server -click 'join X team's ready room' or autojoin -walk to 'ready' door when ready
So yeah, my idea does add that one click before entering the RR where you choose a side/RR "skin." But I think it actually provides a benefit in exchange for that one extra click, in that it provides an intuitive place to put the option to auto-join the team with less players that most competitive multiplayer games have.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2011
Now: Join game (you're already in the RR or lobby) Join either TSA, Khaara, Spectator or random You're in the MS or Hive area
Your idea: Join game (you're in the join menu) Join a team (you're in the team related RR, of which you need two per map = more work) Walk over to the portal You're in the MS or Hive area
The menu is an added step, not needed as the current system works perfectly as proven by both NS and NS2 (which is lacking one feature, namely the backspawn as class). Seriously zex stop this selective quoting :D
[edit]is "join random" missing from Rockdown? It's certainly an option though. It should indeed be added to the RR on Rockdown if it is lacking this portal.
Look, let me explain something. I'm not quoting your entire posts because that would be a ridiculous waste of space, and totally redundant. When I quote a specific argument or contention you make in order to respond to it, it's not at all changing the meaning of what you're saying, therefore your repetitive complaining about "selective quoting" is incredibly pointless.
<!--quoteo(post=1825590:date=Jan 20 2011, 04:21 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 20 2011, 04:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825590"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Join a team (you're in the team related RR, of which you need two per map = more work)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pointing this out separately from the rest of your post because I think you're misunderstanding something about my idea. I'm not saying there need to be two totally different RR's, I'm saying that in the RR, third-person player models should be rendered appropriately (locally) depending on what side the player chooses upon entering the RR. It would be cool if the Alien RR was the same room but covered in infestation, but this could also be accomplished locally given DI implementation. So no, for my idea to work you do not need two RR's per map. Again, I am not "selectively quoting," I have said I partially agree with your post (yes, my idea adds 1 more mouse click) and I am pointing out specifically where I disagree.
If you still don't understand what I mean, check out the game America's Army: in that game, the player is always playing as a US soldier, his team is always US soldiers, and the players on the other team are always terrists. For the players on the other team, it's the exact same thing - they are playing as Americans against terrists. It's not that they have two maps for every game, it's just a matter of how other players are rendered from any one player's perspective.
<!--quoteo(post=1825590:date=Jan 20 2011, 04:21 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 20 2011, 04:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825590"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The menu is an added step, not needed as the current system works perfectly<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We've gone over the flaws in the current system. Some agree that it could be improved, some disagree. And while my idea does add 1 mouse click, it also adds value by a) addressing those flaws, and b) providing an intuitive way to switch teams and auto-join (rather than waiting until you've already started the game) while c) maintaining the stated benefits of having an RR for everyone on the server to socialize in before starting the game.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2011
I didn't get that from your post, but this seems a nice idea indeed. However instead of a menu, I hate them for being in most games and the NS RR is so damn unique!
Let's have a 3D effect or room instead, a swirling teleporter or nanite particle effect to join the TSA and an Infested wormhole type thing to join the aliens, not as nasty as the Onos digestion sprite!!! For random you could have an mix of both? All with a join >insert team< sign and a computer console for joining spectator.
The thing I don't like though is the fact that "joining a team" is not really joining a team. But joining a Ready Room instead, after which you still have to join the team, but removing the Ready Room (lobby) is just so not like NS... And removing it all together comes to close to a menu (3D or not). Blasphemy dammit!
Also my main issue with your selective quoting is not the single sentence quoting, which is fine and needed if you want to respond to a part of a post, but cutting up a sentence out of context is just not done... Anyways let's leave it at that shall we :P
<!--quoteo(post=1825597:date=Jan 20 2011, 05:44 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 20 2011, 05:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825597"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thing I don't like though is the fact that "joining a team" is not really joining a team. But joining a Ready Room instead, after which you still have to join the team<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How so? Joining a team is joining a team, entering the "ready" doorway is saying you are ready to start the match. For example if you've ever played Quake 3, after you join a server, games don't start until every player presses F3 or selects "ready" from a menu. AFAIK, NS2 games don't start until everyone in the RR has walked through a team door, so this isn't really changing anything other than giving people already on a team the option to keep chatting while they wait.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2011
The "ready" doorway is very similar to joining the team, as in joining your team on the map, which is kinda awkward as you've already joined the team from the menu and still have to walk trough the "ready" doorway to say you're ready... Also what happens if you go trough this doorway, are you then locked at your spawn location (inside the map) until everyone (or at least 60%) goes trough this doorway? That is just adding a very unnecessary step...
I'd rather have a countdown timer similar to TF2's setup time (only not as long) a 5 or perhaps up to 15 seconds countdown with the last 5 seconds as a ping sound like NS has, heard throughout the entire map (including the RR). During which you can move around, similar to TF2
<b>Basically what we have now is much simpler:</b> From the RR you join a team and also are "ready" after which you have a short period where you can't move until the game starts.
<b>With this proposal:</b> From the "join menu or room" you go into a team themed RR, from which you still have to go trough a doorway to go into the game, after which you get the same time interval of waiting for others to also go trough this doorway.
Seems rather cumbersome compared to the system in place where joining team instantly means you're ready as well... And also turns the current RR into a glorified menu or perhaps 3D room/effect, which is what most like to avoid, while adding an extra unexpected step.
<b>Old method:</b> "<i>Hey why should I join aliens, I am already a marine aren't I</i>?" Which you can't be certain of as you can see your model/weapon
<b>New method:</b> "<i>Why should I go trough that doorway, didn't I already join a team</i>?" As the real Ready Room is inside the map represented by the Marine Start and the Main Hive.
To really fix this confusion, which is still hardly a problem. Is to get some kind of neutral/civilian model in a RR similar to what we currently have, where both the TSA and Khaara join portals teleport you into the map's team based Ready Room (MS and Hive).
Think of ns_nancy where you spawn outside the MS and have to walk over to the MS (or perhaps a door). For the aliens they could spawn inside a infested room with a light area indicating where to go to get into the map. Think Aliens vs Predator where you are a chest buster and have to bite your way towards the light to free yourself only in this case it's a fast movement DI tunnel going into the Main Hive.
All of which can be turned invisible for the commander by using the CommanderInvisible group.
Much more work and you could have your cinematic entrance in there as well, but you lose your central hub we all know and love. About your proposal, it adds some weird stuff with the double join from the menu and then trough a ready doorway. Which seem more awkward compared to the universal RR (lobby) we currently have with simple join portals for each team, with all marines at initial map start as the main concern...
So it basically comes down to the double join or marines on initial start... Or perhaps another idea, which doesn't turn the RR into a glorified menu with a "Ready Room" behind it.
TLDR; <i>kinda</i> Gah too much text in this post. Some good ideas from this thread, but still one removes the universal RR HUB (with a cinematic possibility), one turns the RR into a menu with a RR behind it (your idea) and old-school has marines on initial spawn as a possible assassin of immersion...
The biggest problem is the first initial join on the server, perhaps we could use the last team you joined on a server instead? Last game you were alien, so you join an alien themed RR and have the option to switch team. But then again, you perhaps can't join a server if you're locked into alien and the alien team is unjoinable (playercount), could be fixed by changing to the team that allows players. which would then make this a system of randomly getting assigned to a team from the start and the RR as you proposed is themed according to the team you are instantly on (but this removes your initial choice of team)
See all ideas have some kind of drawback and personally I think the easiest to understand and to use in NS2 is the current system...
There's no reason to add any sort of Menu to the readyroom. It's not any more confusing than any unique feature of any other game. No player is going to join a game and get mind-numbingly confused because they think they are on the marine team. If its their first time playing, how would they come to that conclusion? They don't have a gun in their hands, or teeth at their camera. And by the time they do realize they are using the marine model, thy have already played the game and should know whats going on.
Not to mention games are for fun, looking at a menu with a picture of a marine and an alien with text saying "Pick your team!" is not 'fun', Even if you pretty it up to be all fancy like the TF2 team/class menus. The RR gives an opportunity to properly chat in between rounds or before a match starts, and jump around randomly (half playing the game).
You can also put creative uses to the readyroom. In NS1 a random pug group would sometimes line the players up in the RR and do schoolyard picks with the benefit of using the RR for visuals.
<!--quoteo(post=1825344:date=Jan 19 2011, 12:46 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 19 2011, 12:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825344"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So to take a page out of your book (lol), "how about addressing my point?" To say that a team selection menu isn't "part of the game" is the same as saying a book's prologue isn't part of a book because it is found before the first chapter- it's ridiculous in both cases. You brought up the book analogy so I'm assuming you can figure out the logic being used here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not the prologue though. Nothing like it. It's more akin to a cover, or the contents page of an anthology/compilation. You don't need these to enjoy the book. You could very easily have a game of NS where you spawn on a random team, in-game once you join a server, right? Anything else is just extra, and is not part of the actual game: the Ready Room.
<!--quoteo(post=1825564:date=Jan 19 2011, 09:14 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 19 2011, 09:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825564"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->See, you aren't addressing my point at all, you are just repeating this trivial semantic difference as if it proves anything and then ignoring the clear cut evidence that totally contradicts what you are saying.<b> Multiple people aside from me have said the RR breaks the fourth wall for them</b> (and they like it because of that). You yourself have said it is "<b>messing up the storyline</b>" (why?). So why, given your disdain for this discussion, do you keep derailing it with wall-of-text posts that debunk themselves?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriously Zex, what the hell IS your point by now? Every post I see tries to address your points, but for some reason you come up with more reasons why you're not satisfied. You provoke people like kouji, who are just trying to talk with you.
I seriously don't have a clue what we're talking about in this thread anymore, because any time someone tries to talk about something, it's apparently NOT what this thread is about.
Comments
Now, actually address my point maybe?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The ready room is [] not part of the game experience. The game experience begins when it says "the match is now starting". No breaking of fourth wall involved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By the way, when I say "breaking the fourth wall" this is exactly what I'm talking about:
<!--quoteo(post=1825157:date=Jan 18 2011, 02:54 AM:name=Evil_bOb1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_bOb1 @ Jan 18 2011, 02:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825157"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->when the game ends people rejoin rr personified by the class they were playing, which personally i find very amusing to see. <b>It reminds me this is just a game </b>and in the rr, marines and aliens can still get along.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
everyone seems to agree on rejoining the ready room as the class they were playing. nobody questions it and everyone enjoys it which im guessing is already in or will be put in (ive not played since the first version of the alpha). so then your problem is only on the first round. zex finds all marine models illogical, but having the models assigned randomly is just as illogical. separate ready rooms is a waste of time, theres no need for a ready room if you;ve chosen your team
trying to make sense out of situation will get us nowhere. instead if uwe want to change it, id suggest being about to choose your initial spawn model (kinda like choosing your own spray tag in hl1), like an avatar thing. the selection could even include structures to make it a bit more ridiculous/fun. this would only be for the first round though so its probably a bit too much effort for something so small and irrelevant.
Segregated RRs doesn't make sense because at the start, people are going to be randomly assigned to them, but this has no bearing on which team they pick, so why bother splitting them into arbitrary groups?
For after a round has occured, the single ready room from my experience is a good reminder that you aren't the dire enemy of the other team, you're all playing the same game for fun, something which I don't find in a lot of games. If you really want to isolate players after that you still have players keeping their old models when they go back to the RR.
So to take a page out of your book (lol), "how about addressing my point?" To say that a team selection menu isn't "part of the game" is the same as saying a book's prologue isn't part of a book because it is found before the first chapter- it's ridiculous in both cases. You brought up the book analogy so I'm assuming you can figure out the logic being used here.
edit - yet another example of the RR breaking the fourth wall:
<!--quoteo(post=1825225:date=Jan 18 2011, 04:36 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 18 2011, 04:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825225"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the single ready room from my experience is a good <b>reminder </b>that you aren't the dire enemy of the other team, <b>you're all playing the same game </b>for fun, something which I don't find in a lot of games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't find fourth-wall breakage in a lot of games because it is considered amateurish. If it is done, it's done obviously intentionally and generally for the sake of humor.
I personally am very attached to this project because it is just that, a game. Something I can play to have fun, and not just a generic experience justified by its unique visuals and special effects. I don't need to be reminded that I have to believe in a fiction to make this experience worthwhile. I think the readyroom is truly an example of how NS is a work of art. It doesn't go by the rules, it makes its rules. It is a product of passion and not cold professionalism. The readyroom truly shows the intention of the team. This is a game where we enjoy ourselves and who cares if it doesn't make sense.
You have three points right zex?
1. The RR is breaking the fourth wall or messing with the storyline...
2. The RR is part of the game in progress
3. The RR is confusing for newbies with, joining teams while being marine. We need Segregated RR's
<ol type='1'><li>I do agree with it messing up the storyline to some extend. As I already said, my maps have RR's tied into the Marine Start and ns_hera does something similar. But this point you're making is simply an opinion, with no good solution other then to revert back to a boring join menu, I guess <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/tongue.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
</li><li>The RR is simply a creative replacement for a team selection menu. Using the TF2 RR's as an example:
The TF2 RR's are indeed part of the gameplay as you have to participate in the game and actually win to keep them safe from the enemy team. And to even get into these RR's you have to choose a team from the team selection menu. You can even kill players camping in these RR's from within the gameplay area, while the game is being played.
Compare this to the NS RR, it becomes very obvious the NS RR is not part of the game at all. You can't influence anything in the NS RR, while being in the gameplay area. Just like you can't do anything to the "spectators" on the join menu screen... You could sit in the menu or the NS RR throughout the entire round never having any impact at all on the game in progress... Sure it is part of the game, but it is not part of the game in progress. If it was, you could even state that the server browser, the game shortcut or even the friggin' power button on the pc you have the game installed on is part of the gameplay.
The actual "RR" in NS/NS2 comparable to the TF2 RR and actually part of the game are obviously the Main Hive and the Marine Start... However you can't join teams from here, which takes us to your third point ->
</li><li>Onto your point of it being confusing for newbies. Don't you think it would be more confusing for new players to have them randomly segregated into an alien or marine RR or maybe even directly putting them in the Main Hive or the Marine Start? They would obviously start complaining about the fact it is not clear how to join the other team...
Fact is: There has to be a team selection at the start right after joining a server, in our case we have the RR instead of a menu...</li></ol>
Thanks
<!--quoteo(post=1825468:date=Jan 19 2011, 09:01 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 19 2011, 09:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825468"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The RR is simply a creative replacement for a team selection menu.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, as I and many others have said before. And also as I said, it's like a team selection menu where the button you click on to join the alien team is a picture of a human.
<!--quoteo(post=1825468:date=Jan 19 2011, 09:01 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 19 2011, 09:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825468"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->part of the gameplay...not part of the game at all... Sure it is part of the game...not part of the game in progress... part of the gameplay...part of the game<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What the hell is your point here? You're bringing us back to an argument which is OVER and you even conceded in the first sentence of your post. Someone said the RR doesn't mess with the storyline or break the fourth wall because it isn't "part of the game." You say it is part of the game (and not part of the game), but again you start your post by saying you agree it messes up the storyline so what are you trying to prove by splitting hairs?
<!--quoteo(post=1825468:date=Jan 19 2011, 09:01 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 19 2011, 09:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825468"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Onto your point of it being confusing for newbies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You mean on to the zombie straw man that won't die even tho I've said 3 or 4 times by now I don't think it's "confusing" for newbies? Why?
Here you go:
The word used for the RR is wrong, that's all. It should be a Lobby, because that is in fact it's function. Also it has no relation to the GAMEPLAY, while it is still part of the GAME, that's what I meant <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/wink.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Sure I tried with my maps and so did ns_hera, but those are still from a TSA perspective. Which get's messed up by the alien portal and the on round end spawnback as class you were during that round. I think nancy and other maps which used bar had it right even though tying them to the map seems more awesome still. It is an opinion and will always be, the mapper decides how much the RR is related to the map...
The real Ready Rooms are actually the Marine Start and the Main Hive, but they already have awesome names. Let's just keep our lobby as Ready Room shall we. Also on initial spawn we are marines, because that is in fact "team 1" and since this is a lobby with no actual relation to the map, there is no "fourth wall" breakage, well the wall might crack somewhat if the mapper decided to tie it to the map's stoyline from one team's perspective. But a crack is not that bad...
Ok, but you still haven't explained why you think it is necessary or relevant to bring this up when you've already invalidated the only reason it was discussed in the context of this thread...
edit-
<!--quoteo(post=1825543:date=Jan 20 2011, 12:59 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 20 2011, 12:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825543"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->since this is a lobby with no actual relation to the map, there is no "fourth wall" breakage<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The multiple examples of other people stating point blank it breaks the fourth wall (and thats why they like it) are invalid because you're inventing a pointless distinction between "being part of the game" and "gameplay?" No.
The gameplay remark is simply addressing your point of "actually being part of the gameplay, while in the RR". In fact the game is not played in the RR but in the map. Sure you are technically playing a the game by starting it up and only hopping around in the RR. But you are NOT participating in the real game, which is behind the join portals.
All of which could be replaced by a join team menu, but this 3D lobby is much nicer then having a simple menu like most games...
That aside, because it is not part of the actual gameplay (in the map) and just a lobby (called Ready Room) its not breaking the fourth wall at all. As I said, it might crack a little if the RR has a specific map related theme (tying them together). But at a first glance of the room and it's join signs it is blatantly obvious it is just a lobby to join teams not related to the theme or storyline of the map at all (mapper choice of course). So how is this less professional then a simple join teams menu... Again initial spawn as a marine is good because we're human and it is "team 1" add to this fact that rigging/texturing/modeling a completely new civilian model from scratch for a very small part of the game is just misdirecting the scarce resources of the small UWE team...
If it wasn't an issue at all in NS, why should it be an issue in NS2... Professionalism and polish? I really don't think the majority of gamers don't care at all for this very short run to the join signs... This is not to say they don't get it as you seem to imply, they simply do not care, besides it's retro and more fun then looking at a scoreboard on round end as well...
[edit]
Selective quoting and stuff which is probably going to follow is not of my interest anymore. The topic has been discussed and most if not all seem to disagree with you... Majority rules, meaning /thread
See, you aren't addressing my point at all, you are just repeating this trivial semantic difference as if it proves anything and then ignoring the clear cut evidence that totally contradicts what you are saying.<b> Multiple people aside from me have said the RR breaks the fourth wall for them</b> (and they like it because of that). You yourself have said it is "<b>messing up the storyline</b>" (why?). So why, given your disdain for this discussion, do you keep derailing it with wall-of-text posts that debunk themselves?
Only if the RR is related to the map (story based/tied into the map's theme), seriously READ before POSTING! And even then it is only cracking the wall, making it even less of an issue...
I agree, and I never suggested it should be eliminated. One person did say it should just be a menu but t hat may or may not have been sarcasm.
edit - just had yet another brainstorm of how it could be made logically consistent but retain its purpose as a pre-game chat room...
- menu-based team selection, "join alien RR" and "join space marine RR" + "auto select team" based on player count
- whichever team you pick, you will spawn in the same room as everyone else, but everyone will be themed correctly i.e. if you "join alien RR" everyone will show up as a skulk on your screen regardless of what team they picked
- instead of two team select doorways, there will be a "ready" doorway and a "switch team" doorway
- if you enter the "switch team" doorway, you will be respawned in the RR with everyone themed correctly to the team you just joined
feel free to deconstruct this, just a quick idea
As said before, the ready room is more of a lobby for socializing than a simple team selection menu... if it was just a menu, then removing player models entirely would make more sense than making it appear as if everyone was on the marine team before they pick a team. This has been discussed ad nauseum for the first 5 or 6 pages of this thread.
<!--quoteo(post=1824162:date=Jan 14 2011, 01:12 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Jan 14 2011, 01:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824162"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The ready room<u> is for some quick socializing</u> before the next round<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1824296:date=Jan 14 2011, 11:15 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 14 2011, 11:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824296"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the ready room is <u>a lobby</u>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1824355:date=Jan 14 2011, 06:18 PM:name=Feha)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Feha @ Jan 14 2011, 06:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824355"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it allows you to be able of not participating in the game, but still<u> jump around randomly</u><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1824449:date=Jan 15 2011, 12:35 AM:name=Shilorius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shilorius @ Jan 15 2011, 12:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1824449"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nobody mentioned yet that the readyroom is also <u>some social point</u>. I remember in the beginning of NS1 sometimes I joined a server and everybody was<u> standing in the Readyroom just chatting.</u><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Basically (in the scenario I invented) the point would be providing a way to socialize while you wait for the server to fill up, or wait for the teams to be balanced.
Does it really matter that much to lose <b>a very unique</b> and perfectly working system as proved by NS?
I for one have never heard any complaints from NS newbies at all, so where is this concern coming from? It is lacking substance zex and only based on your opinion, while the general public does not care at all. Also your proposal, while a good attempt, just adds one more step to the process with two new ready rooms, while we already have two ready rooms (MS and Hive)
That is a valid critique, but is that extra click really a big deal?
Currently (AFAIK):
-join server
-walk to a team select door when ready
My proposal:
-join server
-click 'join X team's ready room' or autojoin
-walk to 'ready' door when ready
So yeah, my idea does add that one click before entering the RR where you choose a side/RR "skin." But I think it actually provides a benefit in exchange for that one extra click, in that it provides an intuitive place to put the option to auto-join the team with less players that most competitive multiplayer games have.
Join game (you're already in the RR or lobby)
Join either TSA, Khaara, Spectator or random
You're in the MS or Hive area
Your idea:
Join game (you're in the join menu)
Join a team (you're in the team related RR, of which you need two per map = more work)
Walk over to the portal
You're in the MS or Hive area
The menu is an added step, not needed as the current system works perfectly as proven by both NS and NS2 (which is lacking one feature, namely the backspawn as class). Seriously zex stop this selective quoting :D
[edit]is "join random" missing from Rockdown? It's certainly an option though. It should indeed be added to the RR on Rockdown if it is lacking this portal.
<!--quoteo(post=1825590:date=Jan 20 2011, 04:21 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 20 2011, 04:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825590"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Join a team (you're in the team related RR, of which you need two per map = more work)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pointing this out separately from the rest of your post because I think you're misunderstanding something about my idea. I'm not saying there need to be two totally different RR's, I'm saying that in the RR, third-person player models should be rendered appropriately (locally) depending on what side the player chooses upon entering the RR. It would be cool if the Alien RR was the same room but covered in infestation, but this could also be accomplished locally given DI implementation. So no, for my idea to work you do not need two RR's per map. Again, I am not "selectively quoting," I have said I partially agree with your post (yes, my idea adds 1 more mouse click) and I am pointing out specifically where I disagree.
If you still don't understand what I mean, check out the game America's Army: in that game, the player is always playing as a US soldier, his team is always US soldiers, and the players on the other team are always terrists. For the players on the other team, it's the exact same thing - they are playing as Americans against terrists. It's not that they have two maps for every game, it's just a matter of how other players are rendered from any one player's perspective.
<!--quoteo(post=1825590:date=Jan 20 2011, 04:21 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 20 2011, 04:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1825590"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The menu is an added step, not needed as the current system works perfectly<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We've gone over the flaws in the current system. Some agree that it could be improved, some disagree. And while my idea does add 1 mouse click, it also adds value by a) addressing those flaws, and b) providing an intuitive way to switch teams and auto-join (rather than waiting until you've already started the game) while c) maintaining the stated benefits of having an RR for everyone on the server to socialize in before starting the game.
Let's have a 3D effect or room instead, a swirling teleporter or nanite particle effect to join the TSA and an Infested wormhole type thing to join the aliens, not as nasty as the Onos digestion sprite!!! For random you could have an mix of both? All with a join >insert team< sign and a computer console for joining spectator.
The thing I don't like though is the fact that "joining a team" is not really joining a team. But joining a Ready Room instead, after which you still have to join the team, but removing the Ready Room (lobby) is just so not like NS... And removing it all together comes to close to a menu (3D or not). Blasphemy dammit!
Also my main issue with your selective quoting is not the single sentence quoting, which is fine and needed if you want to respond to a part of a post, but cutting up a sentence out of context is just not done... Anyways let's leave it at that shall we :P
How so? Joining a team is joining a team, entering the "ready" doorway is saying you are ready to start the match. For example if you've ever played Quake 3, after you join a server, games don't start until every player presses F3 or selects "ready" from a menu. AFAIK, NS2 games don't start until everyone in the RR has walked through a team door, so this isn't really changing anything other than giving people already on a team the option to keep chatting while they wait.
I'd rather have a countdown timer similar to TF2's setup time (only not as long) a 5 or perhaps up to 15 seconds countdown with the last 5 seconds as a ping sound like NS has, heard throughout the entire map (including the RR). During which you can move around, similar to TF2
<b>Basically what we have now is much simpler:</b>
From the RR you join a team and also are "ready" after which you have a short period where you can't move until the game starts.
<b>With this proposal:</b>
From the "join menu or room" you go into a team themed RR, from which you still have to go trough a doorway to go into the game, after which you get the same time interval of waiting for others to also go trough this doorway.
Seems rather cumbersome compared to the system in place where joining team instantly means you're ready as well... And also turns the current RR into a glorified menu or perhaps 3D room/effect, which is what most like to avoid, while adding an extra unexpected step.
<b>Old method:</b>
"<i>Hey why should I join aliens, I am already a marine aren't I</i>?" Which you can't be certain of as you can see your model/weapon
<b>New method:</b>
"<i>Why should I go trough that doorway, didn't I already join a team</i>?" As the real Ready Room is inside the map represented by the Marine Start and the Main Hive.
To really fix this confusion, which is still hardly a problem. Is to get some kind of neutral/civilian model in a RR similar to what we currently have, where both the TSA and Khaara join portals teleport you into the map's team based Ready Room (MS and Hive).
Think of ns_nancy where you spawn outside the MS and have to walk over to the MS (or perhaps a door). For the aliens they could spawn inside a infested room with a light area indicating where to go to get into the map. Think Aliens vs Predator where you are a chest buster and have to bite your way towards the light to free yourself only in this case it's a fast movement DI tunnel going into the Main Hive.
All of which can be turned invisible for the commander by using the CommanderInvisible group.
Much more work and you could have your cinematic entrance in there as well, but you lose your central hub we all know and love. About your proposal, it adds some weird stuff with the double join from the menu and then trough a ready doorway. Which seem more awkward compared to the universal RR (lobby) we currently have with simple join portals for each team, with all marines at initial map start as the main concern...
So it basically comes down to the double join or marines on initial start... Or perhaps another idea, which doesn't turn the RR into a glorified menu with a "Ready Room" behind it.
TLDR; <i>kinda</i>
Gah too much text in this post. Some good ideas from this thread, but still one removes the universal RR HUB (with a cinematic possibility), one turns the RR into a menu with a RR behind it (your idea) and old-school has marines on initial spawn as a possible assassin of immersion...
The biggest problem is the first initial join on the server, perhaps we could use the last team you joined on a server instead? Last game you were alien, so you join an alien themed RR and have the option to switch team. But then again, you perhaps can't join a server if you're locked into alien and the alien team is unjoinable (playercount), could be fixed by changing to the team that allows players. which would then make this a system of randomly getting assigned to a team from the start and the RR as you proposed is themed according to the team you are instantly on (but this removes your initial choice of team)
See all ideas have some kind of drawback and personally I think the easiest to understand and to use in NS2 is the current system...
Not to mention games are for fun, looking at a menu with a picture of a marine and an alien with text saying "Pick your team!" is not 'fun', Even if you pretty it up to be all fancy like the TF2 team/class menus. The RR gives an opportunity to properly chat in between rounds or before a match starts, and jump around randomly (half playing the game).
You can also put creative uses to the readyroom. In NS1 a random pug group would sometimes line the players up in the RR and do schoolyard picks with the benefit of using the RR for visuals.
It's not the prologue though. Nothing like it. It's more akin to a cover, or the contents page of an anthology/compilation. You don't need these to enjoy the book. You could very easily have a game of NS where you spawn on a random team, in-game once you join a server, right? Anything else is just extra, and is not part of the actual game: the Ready Room.
Seriously Zex, what the hell IS your point by now? Every post I see tries to address your points, but for some reason you come up with more reasons why you're not satisfied. You provoke people like kouji, who are just trying to talk with you.
I seriously don't have a clue what we're talking about in this thread anymore, because any time someone tries to talk about something, it's apparently NOT what this thread is about.