Remove Flamethrower
Skie
Skulk Progenitor Join Date: 2003-10-18 Member: 21766Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
Skulk Progenitor Join Date: 2003-10-18 Member: 21766Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
<b>First: Don't even think of posting in this thread if you don't play both aliens and marines equally (AKA Joining Random). Your opinions are otherwise completely void. This game is meant to be played on both teams, not just on the other.</b>
From alien point of view Flamethrower is at its current state in b163 completely ridiculous. From marine point of view it's a godsend really. Give four marines a flammenwerfer and that's it, gg.
a) Currently it takes about 5 minutes to build infestation in Tram to get to the first res node. This is with two hives. About 10 to the second, and additional 5 for the next one. One marine with two seconds of firing near the main hive, where the infestation has started, can permanently destroy that 20 minutes of infestation spreading work and consequently all three res nodes.
"Infest better" is not a valid argument. Go play alien comm in Tram and come back to this discussion after that.
b) Flamethrower kills a skulk in a second, a lerk in two, and obstructs your view so much anyways that no matter what you're playing, you can't do jack.
Flamethrower seems like a cool idea, but it doesn't fit the game's mechanics at all. Either remove it temporarily (just like you did to skulk leap) until aliens get more stuff/DI is reasonable/damage is reasonable, or permanently and think of something more fitting to replace it.
From alien point of view Flamethrower is at its current state in b163 completely ridiculous. From marine point of view it's a godsend really. Give four marines a flammenwerfer and that's it, gg.
a) Currently it takes about 5 minutes to build infestation in Tram to get to the first res node. This is with two hives. About 10 to the second, and additional 5 for the next one. One marine with two seconds of firing near the main hive, where the infestation has started, can permanently destroy that 20 minutes of infestation spreading work and consequently all three res nodes.
"Infest better" is not a valid argument. Go play alien comm in Tram and come back to this discussion after that.
b) Flamethrower kills a skulk in a second, a lerk in two, and obstructs your view so much anyways that no matter what you're playing, you can't do jack.
Flamethrower seems like a cool idea, but it doesn't fit the game's mechanics at all. Either remove it temporarily (just like you did to skulk leap) until aliens get more stuff/DI is reasonable/damage is reasonable, or permanently and think of something more fitting to replace it.
Comments
"Infest better" is not a valid argument. Go play alien comm in Tram and come back to this discussion after that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're doing it wrong. Immediately throw up central-hive, then spend the energy of the main-hive and central-hive to get up to the RT overlooking central-hive (or whatever its called). You now have 2 RTs within 1 minute. Server-room can be gotten after that within about a minute as well (from the staircase), which puts you very early in the game at a respectable 3 RTs.
I still agree with you that DI at the moment is just too difficult for casual players, but it can be done if you are competent.
You didn't think this line through.
You're right. We should totally remove the flamethrower.
Hey Max, Charlie, Cory... yo the rest of you guys, hey you too Brian number 2 come over here! This guy doesn't like the flamethrower.... LETS GET RID OF IT, k?
or maybe the flamethrower shouldnt have been added in the first place, it shouldnt drain the already piss weak fade of adrenaline, blind, instakill skulks, have no cooldown, continue burning way past it should....
it should be a more structure killer than offensive weapon, but that wont happen. so just go lerk, save for onos and control res points because the fade is garbage now.
Flamethrower is good, but so are shotguns, and so are grenades, all the marine weapons are horribly overpowered against skulks and most of them are pretty good against fades, now I assume this is because aliens currently have no upgrades available and so they are stuck with their base stats, they can't boost their damage or their speed or their survivability like the upgrades seem to suggest they should be able to. If I could take something like focus and silence as a skulk, and the hitreg problems were fixed, i'd be killing flamethrower marines easily.
It's the same problem that affects a lot of the game, all the options aren't in yet, which means both teams have things which are really hard to counter. Lerks would be a lot less powerful once exosuits, miniguns, and jetpacks are in because they won't be able to endlessly kite or fly around at long distance to avoid all damage, and they won't be able to spore rooms full of marines to great effect.
Similarly the aliens currently lack a direct attack unit, fades are basically an upgraded skulk, they aren't really suited for running into mobs of marines and beating them all up, that's what the onos is for, combine onoses with fades and expect to see a much improved alien team once the onos is available.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_Er4Lb2aHk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_Er4Lb2aHk</a>
Marines win!!!
this weapon requires zero skill or aiming, all you have to do is hold fire, and wave it around like lightsaber. It blinds aliens, goes through walls and has insane damage over time, skulks, lerks die like nothing.
whats really funny about flamethrowers, they are tier 2 and aliens have zero defense against this in their tier 2. The only way I see aliens countering flamethrowers is with tiers 3, an onos which is pitiful. This weapon needs to be removed or redesigned, though read on the bug tracker this weapon is currently being "fixed", I dont know actually how but I just hope its not like the last fix.
this weapon requires zero skill or aiming, all you have to do is hold fire, and wave it around like lightsaber. It blinds aliens, goes through walls and has insane damage over time, skulks, lerks die like nothing.
whats really funny about flamethrowers, they are tier 2 and aliens have zero defense against this in their tier 2. The only way I see aliens countering flamethrowers is with tiers 3, an onos which is pitiful. This weapon needs to be removed or redesigned, though read on the bug tracker this weapon is currently being "fixed", I dont know actually how but I just hope its not like the last fix.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[2]
Nice post.
Flamethrowers rape my FPS and prevent me from doing anything against trigger happy noobs :/
1. I also think it should JUST be a support weapon for clearing a room of infestation. The damage of it should go down and also I think it should ONLY do burn damage. So they can use it to rid a room of skulks that are hiding kind of like pouring hot water into an ant hive.
2. Another idea is that maybe the carapace upgrade gives the Kharaa extra resistance to flame (Take less damage from the flame thrower and also burn for less time)
Basically, I am repeating what Luns said (But with a bit extra).
+1 for removing it and remaking the Flamethower. (Keep the model, I like that)
TBH i just leave the game when the marines get flamethrowers. In my mind that is when the fun ends for me and the raging begins.
Ever heard of BABBLERS!!!!!!!!!
Tier 1 - Flamer
Tier 2 - ARC
Tier 3 - Exo
Here is the answer to Flamer issues imo:
# Increase Cost (50+)
# Increase Power
# Increase Range
# Nerf Aim Speed When Firing (To the point of aim before you fire)
# Nerf Walk Speed When Firing
# Damages Self When Fired Close By
# No Jumping When Firing
What does this do?
# Creates effective anti-structure options every tier (varying from covert attacks - sneaking a flame guy into a hive - to overt attacks - very loud ARC/EXO late game)
# Cost means not everyone can have one / could be bought by commander - requires someone to save.
# Positive/Negative feel makes it a very powerful against structures but useless (tactically) against aliens
You could also then drop shotty effectiveness against structures (it is far too good all round) and work as a tactical flamer team (he would need back up).
IE: if there are 5 marines, only two of them can have flamethrowers.
This might add to the team play element for both teams.
Aliens might want to focus on taking the advancing flamers out to protect their infestation and the marines are going to want to protect the flamers to a degree too.
The marines would have more of a balanced squad too and would lean on each others equipment.
Personally I would like to see this :)
A squad with limited equipment would be more fun :)
# Increase Cost (50+)
# Increase Power
# Increase Range<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That makes it worse. (Increase cost though is a good idea)
The high amount of damage the flame thrower does is a problem right now.
The range is too high and when you look at it from above it looks like some sort of lightsaber or lazor beam :/
To make it more realistic (IMO) I think the width that it fires in should be wider and the length that it fires in should be shorter.
but i still stick to my ideas of it though.
1. Remove the flamethrower and bring it back into the game at a later date.
2. Listen to what we say about the flamethrowers.
The shotgun cone needs to be like 1-3 deg wider to make it harder to 1-shot skulks, which is bloody easy to do even for FPS noobs like me.
Realise the game is a beta, performance is being worked on as a primary and gameplay elements come last.
Yeah. That's a good way to fix the problem.
so using the flamethrower to cut of the DI links would be hard work, necessary
and fuel for it could not be used on players because u need it for the DI.
maybe di should grow faster in the range of alienbuildings and the more it
expands, the more it slows down in growing.
it should be REALLY dynamic!
so it cant be used so easy as an offense weapon any more.
if you are just hunting down aliens with it, DI will grow everywhere
and marines will loose the game.
so using the flamethrower to cut of the DI links would be hard work, necessary
and fuel for it could not be used on players because u need it for the DI.
maybe di should grow faster in the range of alienbuildings and the more it
expands, the more it slows down in growing.
it should be REALLY dynamic!
so it cant be used so easy as an offense weapon any more.
if you are just hunting down aliens with it, DI will grow everywhere
and marines will loose the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is what they are hoping to make:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMMiKKv7g7s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMMiKKv7g7s</a>
Sigh.
I had a reply typed up, but the forum completely screwed with me. So I'll keep it shorter:
What you don't seem to realise is this will exacerbate the problem. The only reason people 1-shot skulks is because they do it at point-blank. Why do they do it at point-blank? Because the shotgun is utterly useless at range (but ###### awesome at point-blank). Why is it utterly useless at range? Because the spread is ###### HUGE.
Why is it ###### awesome at point-blank? Well in fact, it's got so big of a crutch, that even if you were to MISS at point blank range, the spread is so big that there's still a good chance that 5 of your pellets will hit the skulk (the number required to kill a skulk in one shot).
The solution then, is to actually <b>tighten</b> the cone of fire, to make it less useless at range, and with less room for error (i.e. require more focus and skill) at closer distances.
Never mind the fact that the spread is completely unrealistic. It's 27 degrees. That means that for every 1 unit forward, there's a circle of spread of diameter 1.02 units. That is simply ridiculous. Here's a simple graphic, very close to scale, to illustrate it:
<img src="http://tinypic.cc/files/n/ns2shotgun17187.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<b>The shotgun as-is, is designed to miss.</b> Why else would they give it such high damage? Each pellet does more damage than a rifle bullet.
<!--quoteo(post=1833641:date=Feb 19 2011, 11:17 PM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Feb 19 2011, 11:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1833641"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The flamethrower just <b>needs a range reduction</b>, for now. It is needed ingame to destroy DI, as well as repelling Lerks and Fades. Frankly, the flamethrower's <b>damage is so low now</b> (48 DPS), by itself, even killing a Skulk takes at least 2 seconds. Although I would like to see <b>a cap on the duration of the burn</b>, as well as <b>a reduction of the size of the flame cone</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everything he said. +1
The general answer is that the UWE devs have a habit of not wanting things to be half-arsed (regardless of what haters might think). As such, the issue was that they wanted the Flamethrower to fulfill three conditions, of which only two were possible at a time in the Goldsource engine. Unless all three could be in together, the project wasn't worth pursuing.
Those conditions:
1) Does not impact performance.
2) Looks good.
3) Utilizes volumetric physics.
While yes, you could half-ass it and only take two items from that list and jury-rig it into the game [see: Pyro from TFC], it wouldn't have felt like a successful endeavor.
:
However, since NS2 has an actual dedicated gameplay purpose for the Flamethrower, that third condition may or may not end up taking a backseat. I'd be sad if it did, though.
The high amount of damage the flame thrower does is a problem right now.
The range is too high and when you look at it from above it looks like some sort of lightsaber or lazor beam :/
To make it more realistic (IMO) I think the width that it fires in should be wider and the length that it fires in should be shorter.
but i still stick to my ideas of it though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you are going to quote me, maybe you should quote what I actually said and think intelligently about your replies. You missed everything below.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*
# Nerf Aim Speed When Firing (To the point of aim before you fire)
# Nerf Walk Speed When Firing
# Damages Self When Fired Close By
# No Jumping When Firing
What does this do?
# Creates effective anti-structure options every tier (varying from covert attacks - sneaking a flame guy into a hive - to overt attacks - very loud ARC/EXO late game)
# Cost means not everyone can have one / could be bought by commander - requires someone to save.
# Positive/Negative feel makes it a very powerful against structures but useless (tactically) against aliens<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you actually read the entire post you would see that it would become a useless tool for fighting alien lifeforms with, unless you stood in one position in front of a doorway or down a corridor and just fired a stream down it when something came round the corner.
It would be <b>USELESS</b> against anything melleeing you (see *). You also couldn't chase anything with it. It would also mean you could sneak attack hives more easily, making for some more interesting and quicker games.
It supports the idea of it actually being useful against structures, whilst 'REQUIRING' the support of team mates with weapons like the LMG/Pistol/Shotgun.
Quicker games?
No.
I prefer the long games of NS I don't want games to end very quickly. 20 minutes is the minimum I would want games to last.
And also, it is very good at killing Kharaa defences and increasing the damage of it will just make it better at owning the Kharaa defences. Until we get something of the equivalent (Onos?) it is unfair. If they remove the Flamethrower (And change it slightly; enhanced graphics and preventing it from flaming through walls) until they make a working DI and also bring out the equivalent of it then it is unfair. As soon as they get flamethrowers I can't kill them as skulk anymore. As soon as they see me I am dead. The range is too far because I am like 3 metres away and I am dead.
I can't zigzag towards them either or jump because the hit ranged is too far. I die before I can get 1 bite. The only thing good against them is a lerk and its spikes and even that takes ages. They can get to you and kill before you can kill them anyway. You can't hide in high places becuase the range is too far to allow us to hide on the ceiling or something.
All I can say is that is NEEDS to be nerfed!
So basically you are saying is that you need to assassinate flamethrowers before they can turn around and fry you?
The second change that should be done to the flamethrower is for it to have reduced damage against armor. This will allow the flamethrower the capability to do a lot of damage but will need another weapon to punch through the armor of a Fade or Onos.
In short these two changes would make the flamethrower require more skill and force it to become more of a support role.