<!--quoteo(post=1833618:date=Feb 19 2011, 10:32 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Feb 19 2011, 10:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1833618"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--># Nerf Aim Speed When Firing (To the point of aim before you fire) # Nerf Walk Speed When Firing # Damages Self When Fired Close By # No Jumping When Firing
What does this do?
# Creates effective anti-structure options every tier (varying from covert attacks - sneaking a flame guy into a hive - to overt attacks - very loud ARC/EXO late game) # Cost means not everyone can have one / could be bought by commander - requires someone to save. # Positive/Negative feel makes it a very powerful against structures but useless (tactically) against aliens
You could also then drop shotty effectiveness against structures (it is far too good all round) and work as a tactical flamer team (he would need back up).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is probably the best/most sensible solution I've seen. making it more difficult to flail around while you're firing, and forcing you to walk slower while firing would be eeeexcellent. I mean, think about it. If you were ACTUALLY firing a weapon that was expelling flaming liquid, you would NOT fling it in every direction wildly, and you would not run fullspeed while firing it either; those are both recipes for lighting yourself on fire. This, combined with a nerf for damage against lifeforms and a cost hike would make the flamethrower a tactical weapon that fulfills a very good support role, but doesn't equal instant win
If a Marine can't effectively turn whilst firing or when firing near himself it causes self harm, then fighting a fast moving Skulk/Fade or any life form really is just no go.
I'm not talking about 'not being able to move slighty less', i'm talking <b>BIG</b> nerfs to movement and aim when firing. Meaning you have to aim before you fire.
These nerfs would result in a Marine having to switch to Pistol to engage pretty much every life form he encounters, unless (like I said) he sits at the end of a corridor and fires when something comes round the corner, or gets lucky.
<b>Why have it like this?</b>
Currently the shotgun (a very early game weapon) is more effective than the flamethrower. Also, it is not intuitive. The amount of times I see new players on servers laying into hives with a flamethrower I can count on my hands. Also, why in a my spare time when I want some escapism do I want to fire a weapon that is very unimpressive and doesn't feel right what so ever, and which the game mechanics seem totally flawed?
Seriously, you don't know what you are talking about. Successful competitive and casual games have round times of about 20-30 minutes. That means a game can be played both ways in around 1 hour (give or take 20/40 minutes for organisation, people dropping, late turn ups, etc).
I want NS2 games to be able to last 45 minutes, but should effectively last (considering the game) around 35.
No one has time for games that last over 30 minutes. The casual gamer wants to have a bit of fun for 25 minutes, and the professional gamer does not have 2/3 hours to spare for each clan match + all the hours spent working on tactics and practising. Everyone has lives.
I used to be part of a clan playing CS a while ago, and due to one thing or another you sometimes end up with matches lasting 2 hours. This is CS I am talking about as well, not 45+ minute games in NS2.
It isn't about what you want, it is about what is best for the game. 35 minutes is fine, 45 - 1 hour is boring, and is boring at the moment.
The main reason games last this long is because there are 'NO' weapons that are effective against structures.
It is just a 'I hit you', 'you hit me' until someone gets bored and one team dominates.
When the ARC is introduced it will turn this around completely, but there should be more options for anti structure weapons early game that are tactically different. The flamer being one, and is incorrectly balanced (imo) at the moment.
The flamer will never work as an effective life form weapon, because it is too easy to wave around. The only way UWE think they can balance it (seemingly) is to basically drop DPS completely. This effectively gives the weapon (like all the others at the moment) the same role as every other weapon - except it is slightly more powerful.
It gets the game, and no one, anywhere.
I really don't understand why the flamer and shotgun are balanced as they are. The GL is also a concern, because your role is now very broad. Look at the image below, an early design document. I literally see no signs of this in the flame thrower, and this sort of 'role' based system pretty much ends once you move past the shotgun.
If UWE think this is to make things easier I think they are wrong. The L4D series is very successful, yet the infected team is nerfed in all sorts of ways. But when working well together, unstoppable.
<b>But people understand the game and how to play it because the roles are so well defined.</b>
The GL - You can fire a normal weapon, and run around a load, and fire off a load of grenades.
This same concept goes for every single weapon.
What you really need is 'Situation X' requires 'Solution Y', and to work effectively as a squad you need solution 'Y,U and W' in it to effectively take on an alien team.
People get that, people understand that. What they don't get is "the flamer isnt really killing stuff, which is odd, took ages to research, and the shotgun is more effective?"
If you had it like I am stating.
# At some point in the game the commander or someone would save for a flame thrower. # A team would 'have' to move together to attack a hive/rt and protect the flame thrower guy. # The flame thrower could 'actually' be effective and as powerful as it should be with all the research cost. # You wouldn't see a flame thrower every 2 seconds once they have been researched due to cost. # It would create understandable strategic and tactical plays by the commander and players.
Before someone has a go at me about this being a beta, then why have UWE repeatedly been balancing the weapons, let these threads appear, yet never discuss any future plans for weapons balance.
Ive been having the crazy idea of making the FT an addon to the regular lmg, but it has to be a late mid-game researchable option. like the pistol has the option to fire semi (which i think should be switched to a homing beacon type weapon because i cannot stand how backward the tech is from ns1). marines would purchase the upgrade lmg from the armory and would have to toggle between FT for attacking the res or DI or whips etc (and also HAVE A COOLDOWN). giving it a definitive role in the game while giving the lmg another upgrade over the GL. that way coms dont have to drop ft to have one out in the field. also, it needs to be stronger against structures and weaker against players.
currently many ideas UWE has in-game do not translate into live game play at all. In other words, it sounds great in a debate or on paper but reality in-game its a completely different world, this is the problem.
flamethrower has to be what welders were in ns1, useful, handy but only at certain places. Aliens do not stand any chance at end game fights with this weapon at all, and now shotguns doing what they do, what do aliens even have left? an onos, tier 3? to fight marines tier 2?
largely its because the current lifeform, the fade is SO weak, because of WEAK blink:
fades cannot catch moving targets, cannot get into vents and are forced to chase marines on foot. current blink offers nothing but special effects, if you look past that you realize what you have is a useless ability. if a fade cannot catch a moving target, and be fast, he is useless. And with current sprint here, any good marine can KITE the fade in circles.
blink ability works great on paper, but it does not translate into live game play at all. having to constantly select an area to blink to, having poor aiming system and each blink you're blinded for split of a second - now do this in COMBAT! lets not forget the double clicking needed as well!
if fades could be actually be how they were in ns1, we aliens can maybe fight back better. fades would be able to better run away, attack and counter shotguns better but right now they WALK and CHASE marines on FOOT. its to easy to shoot a fade now seriously, feels like so much of the game has been dumbed-down for people who can't play.
<!--quoteo(post=1833818:date=Feb 19 2011, 06:28 PM:name=DeTeNa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DeTeNa @ Feb 19 2011, 06:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1833818"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->DO NOT REMOVE FLAMETHROWER (...)
with alienvision i can kill em easily...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
There is no need to nerf the flamethrower at all. Its a Tier 2 weapon and has to to much damage. Researching flamethorwer costs (including tier 2 upgrade) 70 carbon. It's okay that it grills minor lifeforms easily. To kill a Fade with FT you need more then a full fueltank and have it constantly in your crosshair.
And it is the only weapon to get rid of the lerks. Killing a lerk with shotgun or rifle is not that easy.
In my opinion the Shotgun has to be nerfed, because it does more damage then l FT and is just effective against everything, even structures. Maybe in the way as Harimau described. I faught as a Fade together with another fade against a single marine with shotgun. ... 8 shots and we both died.
(Edit for spelling... I'm to tired to write in proper english)
<!--quoteo(post=1833619:date=Feb 19 2011, 02:33 PM:name=Adama)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Adama @ Feb 19 2011, 02:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1833619"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps limit the amount of flamethrowers available to the marines?
IE: if there are 5 marines, only two of them can have flamethrowers.
This might add to the team play element for both teams.
Aliens might want to focus on taking the advancing flamers out to protect their infestation and the marines are going to want to protect the flamers to a degree too.
The marines would have more of a balanced squad too and would lean on each others equipment.
Personally I would like to see this :)
A squad with limited equipment would be more fun :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be honest, I like this. If they introduced this into the game then I wouldn't mind the flamethrower as much.
It is VERY annoying when 5 flamethrowers come into your base and kill your hive in about hmm... Lets say... 2 seconds?
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1834089:date=Feb 21 2011, 06:06 AM:name=Papayas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Papayas @ Feb 21 2011, 06:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834089"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To be honest, I like this. If they introduced this into the game then I wouldn't mind the flamethrower as much.
It is VERY annoying when 5 flamethrowers come into your base and kill your hive in about hmm... Lets say... 2 seconds?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So much exaggeration...
A hive has 7000 to 9000 health. Each flamethrower deals 40 direct damage + 8 burn damage = 48 damage per second. So it takes 145.8 flamethrower-seconds to kill a hive, ignoring regeneration. So it would take 10 flamethrowers almost 15 seconds to down a hive.
Whereas it takes 5 marines armed shot Shotguns only one clip each to take down a 7000 HP hive (~8 seconds).
<!--quoteo(post=1833618:date=Feb 19 2011, 02:32 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Feb 19 2011, 02:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1833618"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To be honest I think there should be anti-structure options for Marines every tier.
Tier 1 - Flamer Tier 2 - ARC Tier 3 - Exo
Here is the answer to Flamer issues imo:
# Increase Cost (50+) # Increase Power # Increase Range
# Nerf Aim Speed When Firing (To the point of aim before you fire) # Nerf Walk Speed When Firing # Damages Self When Fired Close By # No Jumping When Firing
What does this do?
# Creates effective anti-structure options every tier (varying from covert attacks - sneaking a flame guy into a hive - to overt attacks - very loud ARC/EXO late game) # Cost means not everyone can have one / could be bought by commander - requires someone to save. # Positive/Negative feel makes it a very powerful against structures but useless (tactically) against aliens
You could also then drop shotty effectiveness against structures (it is far too good all round) and work as a tactical flamer team (he would need back up).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The more I think about it the more I like it.
+1 for this post. But, I think increasing the power and the range might be a problem. If they implement this into the game and see how before react to it first then I will re-consider.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
i would just like to throw in, the alien darkvision is sonar based. You can't see flames in sonar mode. Try it, flames don't blind you with darkvision (actually, you can't even see marines shooting the flamethrower, so it gives you a trade off)
I haven't yet played NS2 (I have a strong aversion towards preorders) but I've been following NS2's development. Thus, my suggestion might not translate well in the game.
What if you kept the Flamethrower as it is, high damage dealing to players and structures and blinding, but you add a big trade-off to its use? And what if this trade-off, instead of being a nerf to the marine player using it, either has an impact to the whole marine team or buffs the alien team/players in some way? -You could have a type of "carapace" that heals the alien when soaked in flames. Carapaces would become a bit rock-paper-scissor though. -Maybe flames always do high damage but, upon death by flames, the alien explodes in a small radius ala xenocide (You can always explain that by pressure build-up of the organic fluids due to the heat). This way, FT could repel targets but their intensive use would cripple the marine team/squad. -Add a concept of oxygen depletion/renewal to the game and tie it with powered/unpowered nodes? It certainly isn't a bright idea to burn all the O2 in an enclosed area.
Anyway, these are just ideas but my point is that there are other ways to fix a weapon than to directly nerf it.
I posted this on the other post with complainers, and it applies here.
Wait for the Onos.
You can NOT base balance on something like this yet when all the alien units aren't even in the game, or buildings. All that will do is cause constant and pointless changes that constantly fluctuate because the game isn't finished yet and every unit/weapon/ability isn't even in the game yet.
So you nerf it now, they release something new, it's to weak now, so buff it again.. but oh wait another new release, time to nerf it again! it's just pointless, why not just wait so all of the games balance can be properly judged.
Now something like marine vs skulk can be discussed because as far as start game goes, everything is in, and I don't see MUCH changing, it will be lmg/pistols vs ungraded skulks so yes, let's work on something like that, that won't be changed do to later patches.
Also taking out the flamethrower is counter productive, they need to test it was well, especially with DI being recently added in. So I am sure you can handle losing a few games (does it honestly matter it's BETA FOR TESTING) for the sake of them moving forward and creating a better game, not wasting time constantly tweaking numbers that will have to be re-tweaked a month later because of a new feature, all because a few players can't handle losing for a few weeks. If the final stages of the beta are almost at an end, and the flamethrower is over powered and dominating then yes of course by all means nerf it and fix it but at this point, so many more important things need to be done, instead of them wasting time to tweak every number for every player that complains about something.
Oh one more thing, it could NOT be easier to counter the flamethrower, aliens have this thing called Lerks who can fly and SHOOT, considering the flamethrower has LIMITED range, you can SNIPE/GAS them with the lerks as long as you KEEP YOUR DISTANCE, very very simple, try it sometime. If your charging at flamethrowers head on with fades and skulks you deserve to die.. kinda stupid actually.
<!--quoteo(post=1834140:date=Feb 21 2011, 07:09 PM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ Feb 21 2011, 07:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834140"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If your charging at flamethrowers head on with fades and skulks you deserve to die.. kinda stupid actually.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point is there shouldn't be something in the game that make classes unplayable. Marines with LMGs can spread out and take on an Onos or at least contribute quite a bit to a fight but the same isn't nearly as true for sulks against flamers. You can just spin around like an idiot holding mouse1, and sulks won't be able to do anything to the group your with.
My problems with it:
Takes no skill. Replicates AOE function of GL without the downside of being bad up close. Renders sulks useless Makes combat more annoying/less fun
Point stills stands that basic marines with LMGs are still fairly useful in tier two whereas sulks just become useless as soon as flamer tech is done.
In the last round I played, I killed 3 marines with flamethrower as a skulk. (not at the same time but in the same game) Just make sure that your alienvision is activatet and you kann kill the marine easily before you die.
(I have to admit, I died after I killed the marine every time.. but a 0 plasma skulk against a 30 plasma FT is a nice trade off)
Once Ono's thrown in, everything should balance it self up. Maybe slow down the movement while the flame thrower is firing or something, like the gatling gun in TF2. Speaking of which, I really hope they do the slow down thing with the dual chaingun they're gonna be adding later. That thing sounds like gonna be hell to balance.
Actually, why not lock flamethrowers away untill Onos are implemented?
The flamethrower should be a very narrow stream that expands, possibly non-linearly. Direct damage should be related to the density of the stream that hits a player (possibly similar in effect to the shotgun). Burn-ignition should require a certain amount of damage within a certain timeframe. And burn should have a certain, short duration - possibly damage as a small % of MaxHP so that it scales better for larger units. The DPS could be kept the same or even raised, but you could chop up the firing intervals even further (currently they're 0.5 seconds, you could make them 0.1 seconds and divide the damage by 5).
The main points are nerfing the burn, having a very narrow stream (so it makes it very easy to miss, i.e. takes skill to aim) which expands, but as a result there is damage drop off due to the lower density of flame.
I suppose, for a simple code implementation, damage is maximum within melee range, and zero at maximum range, and scales in-between. Unfortunately we're still stuck with the flaming lightsaber effect with this implementation. Alternatively, you could have a flame "ball" expand in volume with time (from firing), and decrease in damage (density) with time; could be processor-intensive though since they will sort of be projectiles. You could also have each "ball" of flame rise slightly (until it goes out), which would further decrease the ease with which you can fire a flamethrower at range.
At too close a range, it will be very hard to hit a skulk, at too far a range, you're not going to be doing much damage. So it will take skill to aim and position yourself when you use a flamethrower. You could have the length of the stream pretty much as long as you wanted, because the damage drop off would necessarily require marines to get in closer than max range to do real damage. The flamethrower will become a middle-range weapon against lifeforms, and close-range against structures, as it should be.
What they should do for DI is making a very thin layer expand quickly, however the longer the DI is still in a place it becomes thicker and harder to remove. Therefore Marines with flamethrowers can easily kill/slow the expansion if they're trying to, however removing DI that has been there for a long time is harder.
As for Flamethrower two modes of fire. One being where you can move and you have a pretty short but solid cone of flames, while the other fire mode being standing still and firing a VERY THIN line of flames that requires actual aiming but can hit longer targets/DI on roof.
<!--quoteo(post=1834154:date=Feb 21 2011, 02:56 PM:name=Simon493)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Simon493 @ Feb 21 2011, 02:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834154"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The point is there shouldn't be something in the game that make classes unplayable. Marines with LMGs can spread out and take on an Onos or at least contribute quite a bit to a fight but the same isn't nearly as true for sulks against flamers. You can just spin around like an idiot holding mouse1, and sulks won't be able to do anything to the group your with.
My problems with it:
Takes no skill. Replicates AOE function of GL without the downside of being bad up close. Renders sulks useless Makes combat more annoying/less fun
Point stills stands that basic marines with LMGs are still fairly useful in tier two whereas sulks just become useless as soon as flamer tech is done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's common sense, I can flip it to watch, a lone marine with a lmg charging at a onos would and should instantly die, and it's equally as stupid. Does this render marines useless? No, combat is still very much fun, takes ZERO skill to kill any marine with an onos etc. It's called common sense, and a UPPER TIER weapon that COST RESOURCES should kill a base starting unit, again it's common sense.
I'm seriously sick of seeing these post where people refuse to LEARN the game and get GOOD, but instead cry to nerf and tone everything down instead, how about doing the work YOURSELVES and learning how to get better? Like I said use a lerker, its SIMPLE.
So many more important things need to be focused on, outside of petty higher tier balance changes that WILL NATURALLY SHIFT when NEW material gets released, does anyone have any patience anymore?
<!--quoteo(post=1834222:date=Feb 22 2011, 03:40 AM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ Feb 22 2011, 03:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834222"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it's common sense, I can flip it to watch, a lone marine with a lmg charging at a onos would and should instantly die, and it's equally as stupid. Does this render marines useless? No, combat is still very much fun, takes ZERO skill to kill any marine with an onos etc. It's called common sense, and a UPPER TIER weapon that COST RESOURCES should kill a base starting unit, again it's common sense.
I'm seriously sick of seeing these post where people refuse to LEARN the game and get GOOD, but instead cry to nerf and tone everything down instead, how about doing the work YOURSELVES and learning how to get better? Like I said use a lerker, its SIMPLE.
So many more important things need to be focused on, outside of petty higher tier balance changes that WILL NATURALLY SHIFT when NEW material gets released, does anyone have any patience anymore?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really. Here is what I said:
"Marines with LMGs can spread out and take on an Onos or at least contribute quite a bit to a fight but the same isn't nearly as true for sulks against flamers. "
Which you've taken the liberty to translate into
"A single marine taking on an Onos"
Very comparable.
My point is that sulks become significantly less effective once flamethrowers are done(tier two) wheres marines with LMGs can still contribute quite a bit against Onos. (tier three)
As for me being bad, lolno bra. I've played fps/rts hybrids competitively for years and worked on balancing for years as well. Game needs to be designed around fun and balanced. Obviously sulks shouldn't be able to kill a teched up marine(given same skill level) but they should still be able to contribute to the fight otherwise its just ###### ###### for them and not fun, especially for newer players.
inb4 everyone tells me about how they killed some guy with a flamerthrower this one time as sulk. The point is at equal skill levels flamethrowers absolutely dominate sulks in a way that t2 tech shouldn't. IMO the weapon was designed for DI and DI only and as such doesn't fit well with the rest of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1834121:date=Feb 21 2011, 11:04 AM:name=Raph)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raph @ Feb 21 2011, 11:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834121"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I haven't yet played NS2 (I have a strong aversion towards preorders) but I've been following NS2's development. Thus, my suggestion might not translate well in the game.
What if you kept the Flamethrower as it is, high damage dealing to players and structures and blinding, but you add a big trade-off to its use? And what if this trade-off, instead of being a nerf to the marine player using it, either has an impact to the whole marine team or buffs the alien team/players in some way? -You could have a type of "carapace" that heals the alien when soaked in flames. Carapaces would become a bit rock-paper-scissor though. -Maybe flames always do high damage but, upon death by flames, the alien explodes in a small radius ala xenocide (You can always explain that by pressure build-up of the organic fluids due to the heat). This way, FT could repel targets but their intensive use would cripple the marine team/squad. -Add a concept of oxygen depletion/renewal to the game and tie it with powered/unpowered nodes? It certainly isn't a bright idea to burn all the O2 in an enclosed area.
Anyway, these are just ideas but my point is that there are other ways to fix a weapon than to directly nerf it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1833743:date=Feb 19 2011, 10:16 PM:name=DrCube)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DrCube @ Feb 19 2011, 10:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1833743"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hate how things in games just burst into flames like they are made out of paper if there is even a hint of a flame next to them. I think it be nice for once to have the flamethrower take some skill by making it require for you to deal X amount of damage in X amount of time before what you're shooting starts on fire.
It would reward players for being able to maneuvered around the flames so you don't catch on fire. At this point its like a death trap to attack someone with a flamethrower, you're almost 100% certain to catch on fire. With this mechanic you wont feel as cheated when you die from the flames.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <b>This was said on another thread.</b>
+1 But not that much damage though. I would say something like <b>50?</b>
I also think that the following should also be added to the flamethrower:
<!--quoteo(post=1833641:date=Feb 19 2011, 03:17 PM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Feb 19 2011, 03:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1833641"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The flamethrower just <b>needs a range reduction</b>, for now. It is needed ingame to destroy DI, as well as repelling Lerks and Fades. Frankly, the flamethrower's damage is so low now (48 DPS), by itself, even killing a Skulk takes at least 2 seconds. Although I would like to see a cap on the <b>duration of the burn</b>, as well as a <b>reduction of the size of the flame cone</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Both of these things would make the flamethrower MUCH more fair in the game and will give the Aliens a chance.
<!--quoteo(post=1834225:date=Feb 22 2011, 04:48 AM:name=Simon493)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Simon493 @ Feb 22 2011, 04:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834225"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMO the weapon was designed for DI and DI only and as such doesn't fit well with the rest of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly, the flamethrower isn't that bad compared to the shotgun. The shotgun requires a modicum of skill to use, but it can kill pretty much everything very quickly. And you can get it almost immediately when the round starts.
<!--quoteo(post=1834352:date=Feb 22 2011, 08:12 PM:name=Stele007)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stele007 @ Feb 22 2011, 08:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834352"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly, the flamethrower isn't that bad compared to the shotgun. The shotgun requires a modicum of skill to use, but it can kill pretty much everything very quickly. And you can get it almost immediately when the round starts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
The shotgun is OverPowered. I still think the flamethrower is but the shotgun is worse as it kills basically everything in a 1 - 3 hits.
The thing that is bad about the shotgun is that you can get it very early in the game, just as you said. They need to make the damage less.
Maybe they could lower the damage and then allow it to have its full damage as an upgrade for it. If they do this, then the shotgun won't be as effective as it is at the moment but will still allow it to be useful in later gameplay.
Fix: Increase spread dramatically for shotgun. Shotgun still should 1-2 shot a skulk right in front of him, skulk shouldn't be able to charge a shotgun wielding marine and do very well.
Well we won't be removing the flamethrower, but we almost certainly need to make some adjustments to it along with infestation.
This was a very early test of the infestation, released to you guys before it was "done" to make sure we could get feedback like yours! We're hoping that it's more fun to try all the versions along the way instead of just getting the final version dropped in your lap.
I haven't gotten much time in build 163/4 but thanks for your thoughts, they are helpful. We'll improve this.
Comments
-> like the grenade launcher.
Or maybe the opposite ?
# Nerf Walk Speed When Firing
# Damages Self When Fired Close By
# No Jumping When Firing
What does this do?
# Creates effective anti-structure options every tier (varying from covert attacks - sneaking a flame guy into a hive - to overt attacks - very loud ARC/EXO late game)
# Cost means not everyone can have one / could be bought by commander - requires someone to save.
# Positive/Negative feel makes it a very powerful against structures but useless (tactically) against aliens
You could also then drop shotty effectiveness against structures (it is far too good all round) and work as a tactical flamer team (he would need back up).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is probably the best/most sensible solution I've seen. making it more difficult to flail around while you're firing, and forcing you to walk slower while firing would be eeeexcellent. I mean, think about it. If you were ACTUALLY firing a weapon that was expelling flaming liquid, you would NOT fling it in every direction wildly, and you would not run fullspeed while firing it either; those are both recipes for lighting yourself on fire. This, combined with a nerf for damage against lifeforms and a cost hike would make the flamethrower a tactical weapon that fulfills a very good support role, but doesn't equal instant win
huh huh huh u said penis
If a Marine can't effectively turn whilst firing or when firing near himself it causes self harm, then fighting a fast moving Skulk/Fade or any life form really is just no go.
I'm not talking about 'not being able to move slighty less', i'm talking <b>BIG</b> nerfs to movement and aim when firing. Meaning you have to aim before you fire.
These nerfs would result in a Marine having to switch to Pistol to engage pretty much every life form he encounters, unless (like I said) he sits at the end of a corridor and fires when something comes round the corner, or gets lucky.
<b>Why have it like this?</b>
Currently the shotgun (a very early game weapon) is more effective than the flamethrower. Also, it is not intuitive. The amount of times I see new players on servers laying into hives with a flamethrower I can count on my hands. Also, why in a my spare time when I want some escapism do I want to fire a weapon that is very unimpressive and doesn't feel right what so ever, and which the game mechanics seem totally flawed?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Quicker games?
No.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriously, you don't know what you are talking about. Successful competitive and casual games have round times of about 20-30 minutes. That means a game can be played both ways in around 1 hour (give or take 20/40 minutes for organisation, people dropping, late turn ups, etc).
I want NS2 games to be able to last 45 minutes, but should effectively last (considering the game) around 35.
No one has time for games that last over 30 minutes. The casual gamer wants to have a bit of fun for 25 minutes, and the professional gamer does not have 2/3 hours to spare for each clan match + all the hours spent working on tactics and practising. Everyone has lives.
I used to be part of a clan playing CS a while ago, and due to one thing or another you sometimes end up with matches lasting 2 hours. This is CS I am talking about as well, not 45+ minute games in NS2.
It isn't about what you want, it is about what is best for the game. 35 minutes is fine, 45 - 1 hour is boring, and is boring at the moment.
The main reason games last this long is because there are 'NO' weapons that are effective against structures.
It is just a 'I hit you', 'you hit me' until someone gets bored and one team dominates.
When the ARC is introduced it will turn this around completely, but there should be more options for anti structure weapons early game that are tactically different. The flamer being one, and is incorrectly balanced (imo) at the moment.
The flamer will never work as an effective life form weapon, because it is too easy to wave around. The only way UWE think they can balance it (seemingly) is to basically drop DPS completely. This effectively gives the weapon (like all the others at the moment) the same role as every other weapon - except it is slightly more powerful.
It gets the game, and no one, anywhere.
I really don't understand why the flamer and shotgun are balanced as they are. The GL is also a concern, because your role is now very broad. Look at the image below, an early design document. I literally see no signs of this in the flame thrower, and this sort of 'role' based system pretty much ends once you move past the shotgun.
<img src="http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/2585/weaponsnq.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
If UWE think this is to make things easier I think they are wrong. The L4D series is very successful, yet the infected team is nerfed in all sorts of ways. But when working well together, unstoppable.
<b>But people understand the game and how to play it because the roles are so well defined.</b>
The GL - You can fire a normal weapon, and run around a load, and fire off a load of grenades.
This same concept goes for every single weapon.
What you really need is 'Situation X' requires 'Solution Y', and to work effectively as a squad you need solution 'Y,U and W' in it to effectively take on an alien team.
People get that, people understand that. What they don't get is "the flamer isnt really killing stuff, which is odd, took ages to research, and the shotgun is more effective?"
If you had it like I am stating.
# At some point in the game the commander or someone would save for a flame thrower.
# A team would 'have' to move together to attack a hive/rt and protect the flame thrower guy.
# The flame thrower could 'actually' be effective and as powerful as it should be with all the research cost.
# You wouldn't see a flame thrower every 2 seconds once they have been researched due to cost.
# It would create understandable strategic and tactical plays by the commander and players.
Before someone has a go at me about this being a beta, then why have UWE repeatedly been balancing the weapons, let these threads appear, yet never discuss any future plans for weapons balance.
It is worrying.
flamethrower has to be what welders were in ns1, useful, handy but only at certain places. Aliens do not stand any chance at end game fights with this weapon at all, and now shotguns doing what they do, what do aliens even have left? an onos, tier 3? to fight marines tier 2?
largely its because the current lifeform, the fade is SO weak, because of WEAK blink:
fades cannot catch moving targets, cannot get into vents and are forced to chase marines on foot. current blink offers nothing but special effects, if you look past that you realize what you have is a useless ability. if a fade cannot catch a moving target, and be fast, he is useless. And with current sprint here, any good marine can KITE the fade in circles.
blink ability works great on paper, but it does not translate into live game play at all. having to constantly select an area to blink to, having poor aiming system and each blink you're blinded for split of a second - now do this in COMBAT! lets not forget the double clicking needed as well!
if fades could be actually be how they were in ns1, we aliens can maybe fight back better. fades would be able to better run away, attack and counter shotguns better but right now they WALK and CHASE marines on FOOT. its to easy to shoot a fade now seriously, feels like so much of the game has been dumbed-down for people who can't play.
what about ARCs, heavy armor and the new duel HMG, or whatever?
everyone has to be an onos, what? lol
I know this is a game, and you have artistic license. But intuitively this is not right, and would really be very odd for players old or new.
I think the key (as I have posted above) is to have a super effective weapon. Let it be as cool and cinematic as it can be.
But whilst very powerful, nerf it in ways that make it impossible as an assault weapon for life forms.
with alienvision ich can kill em easily...
And btw there is a "remove flamethrower" thread already...
with alienvision i can kill em easily...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
There is no need to nerf the flamethrower at all.
Its a Tier 2 weapon and has to to much damage.
Researching flamethorwer costs (including tier 2 upgrade) 70 carbon.
It's okay that it grills minor lifeforms easily.
To kill a Fade with FT you need more then a full fueltank and have it constantly in your crosshair.
And it is the only weapon to get rid of the lerks.
Killing a lerk with shotgun or rifle is not that easy.
In my opinion the Shotgun has to be nerfed, because it does more damage then l FT and is just effective against everything, even structures. Maybe in the way as Harimau described.
I faught as a Fade together with another fade against a single marine with shotgun. ... 8 shots and we both died.
(Edit for spelling... I'm to tired to write in proper english)
IE: if there are 5 marines, only two of them can have flamethrowers.
This might add to the team play element for both teams.
Aliens might want to focus on taking the advancing flamers out to protect their infestation and the marines are going to want to protect the flamers to a degree too.
The marines would have more of a balanced squad too and would lean on each others equipment.
Personally I would like to see this :)
A squad with limited equipment would be more fun :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be honest, I like this. If they introduced this into the game then I wouldn't mind the flamethrower as much.
It is VERY annoying when 5 flamethrowers come into your base and kill your hive in about hmm... Lets say... 2 seconds?
It is VERY annoying when 5 flamethrowers come into your base and kill your hive in about hmm... Lets say... 2 seconds?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So much exaggeration...
A hive has 7000 to 9000 health. Each flamethrower deals 40 direct damage + 8 burn damage = 48 damage per second. So it takes 145.8 flamethrower-seconds to kill a hive, ignoring regeneration. So it would take 10 flamethrowers almost 15 seconds to down a hive.
Whereas it takes 5 marines armed shot Shotguns only one clip each to take down a 7000 HP hive (~8 seconds).
Tier 1 - Flamer
Tier 2 - ARC
Tier 3 - Exo
Here is the answer to Flamer issues imo:
# Increase Cost (50+)
# Increase Power
# Increase Range
# Nerf Aim Speed When Firing (To the point of aim before you fire)
# Nerf Walk Speed When Firing
# Damages Self When Fired Close By
# No Jumping When Firing
What does this do?
# Creates effective anti-structure options every tier (varying from covert attacks - sneaking a flame guy into a hive - to overt attacks - very loud ARC/EXO late game)
# Cost means not everyone can have one / could be bought by commander - requires someone to save.
# Positive/Negative feel makes it a very powerful against structures but useless (tactically) against aliens
You could also then drop shotty effectiveness against structures (it is far too good all round) and work as a tactical flamer team (he would need back up).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The more I think about it the more I like it.
+1 for this post. But, I think increasing the power and the range might be a problem. If they implement this into the game and see how before react to it first then I will re-consider.
What if you kept the Flamethrower as it is, high damage dealing to players and structures and blinding, but you add a big trade-off to its use? And what if this trade-off, instead of being a nerf to the marine player using it, either has an impact to the whole marine team or buffs the alien team/players in some way?
-You could have a type of "carapace" that heals the alien when soaked in flames. Carapaces would become a bit rock-paper-scissor though.
-Maybe flames always do high damage but, upon death by flames, the alien explodes in a small radius ala xenocide (You can always explain that by pressure build-up of the organic fluids due to the heat). This way, FT could repel targets but their intensive use would cripple the marine team/squad.
-Add a concept of oxygen depletion/renewal to the game and tie it with powered/unpowered nodes? It certainly isn't a bright idea to burn all the O2 in an enclosed area.
Anyway, these are just ideas but my point is that there are other ways to fix a weapon than to directly nerf it.
Wait for the Onos.
You can NOT base balance on something like this yet when all the alien units aren't even in the game, or buildings. All that will do is cause constant and pointless changes that constantly fluctuate because the game isn't finished yet and every unit/weapon/ability isn't even in the game yet.
So you nerf it now, they release something new, it's to weak now, so buff it again.. but oh wait another new release, time to nerf it again! it's just pointless, why not just wait so all of the games balance can be properly judged.
Now something like marine vs skulk can be discussed because as far as start game goes, everything is in, and I don't see MUCH changing, it will be lmg/pistols vs ungraded skulks so yes, let's work on something like that, that won't be changed do to later patches.
Also taking out the flamethrower is counter productive, they need to test it was well, especially with DI being recently added in. So I am sure you can handle losing a few games (does it honestly matter it's BETA FOR TESTING) for the sake of them moving forward and creating a better game, not wasting time constantly tweaking numbers that will have to be re-tweaked a month later because of a new feature, all because a few players can't handle losing for a few weeks. If the final stages of the beta are almost at an end, and the flamethrower is over powered and dominating then yes of course by all means nerf it and fix it but at this point, so many more important things need to be done, instead of them wasting time to tweak every number for every player that complains about something.
Oh one more thing, it could NOT be easier to counter the flamethrower, aliens have this thing called Lerks who can fly and SHOOT, considering the flamethrower has LIMITED range, you can SNIPE/GAS them with the lerks as long as you KEEP YOUR DISTANCE, very very simple, try it sometime. If your charging at flamethrowers head on with fades and skulks you deserve to die.. kinda stupid actually.
The point is there shouldn't be something in the game that make classes unplayable. Marines with LMGs can spread out and take on an Onos or at least contribute quite a bit to a fight but the same isn't nearly as true for sulks against flamers. You can just spin around like an idiot holding mouse1, and sulks won't be able to do anything to the group your with.
My problems with it:
Takes no skill.
Replicates AOE function of GL without the downside of being bad up close.
Renders sulks useless
Makes combat more annoying/less fun
Point stills stands that basic marines with LMGs are still fairly useful in tier two whereas sulks just become useless as soon as flamer tech is done.
Renders sulks useless
(...)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not at all.
In the last round I played, I killed 3 marines with flamethrower as a skulk.
(not at the same time but in the same game)
Just make sure that your alienvision is activatet and you kann kill the marine easily before you die.
(I have to admit, I died after I killed the marine every time.. but a 0 plasma skulk against a 30 plasma FT is a nice trade off)
Actually, why not lock flamethrowers away untill Onos are implemented?
Direct damage should be related to the density of the stream that hits a player (possibly similar in effect to the shotgun).
Burn-ignition should require a certain amount of damage within a certain timeframe.
And burn should have a certain, short duration - possibly damage as a small % of MaxHP so that it scales better for larger units.
The DPS could be kept the same or even raised, but you could chop up the firing intervals even further (currently they're 0.5 seconds, you could make them 0.1 seconds and divide the damage by 5).
The main points are nerfing the burn, having a very narrow stream (so it makes it very easy to miss, i.e. takes skill to aim) which expands, but as a result there is damage drop off due to the lower density of flame.
I suppose, for a simple code implementation, damage is maximum within melee range, and zero at maximum range, and scales in-between.
Unfortunately we're still stuck with the flaming lightsaber effect with this implementation.
Alternatively, you could have a flame "ball" expand in volume with time (from firing), and decrease in damage (density) with time; could be processor-intensive though since they will sort of be projectiles. You could also have each "ball" of flame rise slightly (until it goes out), which would further decrease the ease with which you can fire a flamethrower at range.
At too close a range, it will be very hard to hit a skulk, at too far a range, you're not going to be doing much damage. So it will take skill to aim and position yourself when you use a flamethrower. You could have the length of the stream pretty much as long as you wanted, because the damage drop off would necessarily require marines to get in closer than max range to do real damage. The flamethrower will become a middle-range weapon against lifeforms, and close-range against structures, as it should be.
As for Flamethrower two modes of fire. One being where you can move and you have a pretty short but solid cone of flames, while the other fire mode being standing still and firing a VERY THIN line of flames that requires actual aiming but can hit longer targets/DI on roof.
My problems with it:
Takes no skill.
Replicates AOE function of GL without the downside of being bad up close.
Renders sulks useless
Makes combat more annoying/less fun
Point stills stands that basic marines with LMGs are still fairly useful in tier two whereas sulks just become useless as soon as flamer tech is done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's common sense, I can flip it to watch, a lone marine with a lmg charging at a onos would and should instantly die, and it's equally as stupid. Does this render marines useless? No, combat is still very much fun, takes ZERO skill to kill any marine with an onos etc. It's called common sense, and a UPPER TIER weapon that COST RESOURCES should kill a base starting unit, again it's common sense.
I'm seriously sick of seeing these post where people refuse to LEARN the game and get GOOD, but instead cry to nerf and tone everything down instead, how about doing the work YOURSELVES and learning how to get better? Like I said use a lerker, its SIMPLE.
So many more important things need to be focused on, outside of petty higher tier balance changes that WILL NATURALLY SHIFT when NEW material gets released, does anyone have any patience anymore?
I'm seriously sick of seeing these post where people refuse to LEARN the game and get GOOD, but instead cry to nerf and tone everything down instead, how about doing the work YOURSELVES and learning how to get better? Like I said use a lerker, its SIMPLE.
So many more important things need to be focused on, outside of petty higher tier balance changes that WILL NATURALLY SHIFT when NEW material gets released, does anyone have any patience anymore?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really. Here is what I said:
"Marines with LMGs can spread out and take on an Onos or at least contribute quite a bit to a fight but the same isn't nearly as true for sulks against flamers. "
Which you've taken the liberty to translate into
"A single marine taking on an Onos"
Very comparable.
My point is that sulks become significantly less effective once flamethrowers are done(tier two) wheres marines with LMGs can still contribute quite a bit against Onos. (tier three)
As for me being bad, lolno bra. I've played fps/rts hybrids competitively for years and worked on balancing for years as well. Game needs to be designed around fun and balanced. Obviously sulks shouldn't be able to kill a teched up marine(given same skill level) but they should still be able to contribute to the fight otherwise its just ###### ###### for them and not fun, especially for newer players.
inb4 everyone tells me about how they killed some guy with a flamerthrower this one time as sulk. The point is at equal skill levels flamethrowers absolutely dominate sulks in a way that t2 tech shouldn't. IMO the weapon was designed for DI and DI only and as such doesn't fit well with the rest of the game.
What if you kept the Flamethrower as it is, high damage dealing to players and structures and blinding, but you add a big trade-off to its use? And what if this trade-off, instead of being a nerf to the marine player using it, either has an impact to the whole marine team or buffs the alien team/players in some way?
-You could have a type of "carapace" that heals the alien when soaked in flames. Carapaces would become a bit rock-paper-scissor though.
-Maybe flames always do high damage but, upon death by flames, the alien explodes in a small radius ala xenocide (You can always explain that by pressure build-up of the organic fluids due to the heat). This way, FT could repel targets but their intensive use would cripple the marine team/squad.
-Add a concept of oxygen depletion/renewal to the game and tie it with powered/unpowered nodes? It certainly isn't a bright idea to burn all the O2 in an enclosed area.
Anyway, these are just ideas but my point is that there are other ways to fix a weapon than to directly nerf it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
welcome to the forums, now go buy the game.
It would reward players for being able to maneuvered around the flames so you don't catch on fire. At this point its like a death trap to attack someone with a flamethrower, you're almost 100% certain to catch on fire. With this mechanic you wont feel as cheated when you die from the flames.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <b>This was said on another thread.</b>
+1
But not that much damage though. I would say something like <b>50?</b>
I also think that the following should also be added to the flamethrower:
<!--quoteo(post=1833641:date=Feb 19 2011, 03:17 PM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Feb 19 2011, 03:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1833641"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The flamethrower just <b>needs a range reduction</b>, for now. It is needed ingame to destroy DI, as well as repelling Lerks and Fades. Frankly, the flamethrower's damage is so low now (48 DPS), by itself, even killing a Skulk takes at least 2 seconds. Although I would like to see a cap on the <b>duration of the burn</b>, as well as a <b>reduction of the size of the flame cone</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Both of these things would make the flamethrower MUCH more fair in the game and will give the Aliens a chance.
<!--quoteo(post=1834225:date=Feb 22 2011, 04:48 AM:name=Simon493)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Simon493 @ Feb 22 2011, 04:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834225"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMO the weapon was designed for DI and DI only and as such doesn't fit well with the rest of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
But it is unlikely that this will happen.
+1
The shotgun is OverPowered. I still think the flamethrower is but the shotgun is worse as it kills basically everything in a 1 - 3 hits.
The thing that is bad about the shotgun is that you can get it very early in the game, just as you said. They need to make the damage less.
Maybe they could lower the damage and then allow it to have its full damage as an upgrade for it.
If they do this, then the shotgun won't be as effective as it is at the moment but will still allow it to be useful in later gameplay.
This was a very early test of the infestation, released to you guys before it was "done" to make sure we could get feedback like yours! We're hoping that it's more fun to try all the versions along the way instead of just getting the final version dropped in your lap.
I haven't gotten much time in build 163/4 but thanks for your thoughts, they are helpful. We'll improve this.