<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We're hoping that it's more fun to try all the versions along the way instead of just getting the final version dropped in your lap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Certainly!
I hope DI will be really dynamic in the end (growing on its own). That would be so cool...
<!--quoteo(post=1834391:date=Feb 22 2011, 04:21 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Feb 22 2011, 04:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834391"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We're hoping that it's more fun to try all the versions along the way instead of just getting the final version dropped in your lap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 100% agree, not just for DI either. I always have fun trying new features even if they are currently broken or still WIP. Although I saw a bunch of complaining on the day of b163, DI is actually pretty fun right now but clearly has a lot left to add/change. Seems frequent patches might be happening more now? I can guarantee this will prove to be a good thing. As I'm sure you're aware there seems to be a 'falloff' of activity after a few days from a patch and the longer it goes the fewer and fewer players online. Eventually it gets to the point where games are started by finding a server and sitting there for 10-20 minutes hoping to attract others. I think most of the issue is from players needing something to look forward to every week or so (without being a tease) and more patches are going to keep people sticking around much longer, or so I would think.
<!--quoteo(post=1834420:date=Feb 22 2011, 03:56 PM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Feb 22 2011, 03:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834420"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->100% agree, not just for DI either. I always have fun trying new features even if they are currently broken or still WIP. Although I saw a bunch of complaining on the day of b163, DI is actually pretty fun right now but clearly has a lot left to add/change. Seems frequent patches might be happening more now? I can guarantee this will prove to be a good thing. As I'm sure you're aware there seems to be a 'falloff' of activity after a few days from a patch and the longer it goes the fewer and fewer players online. Eventually it gets to the point where games are started by finding a server and sitting there for 10-20 minutes hoping to attract others. I think most of the issue is from players needing something to look forward to every week or so (without being a tease) and more patches are going to keep people sticking around much longer, or so I would think.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1834373:date=Feb 22 2011, 09:02 PM:name=Killpo1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Killpo1 @ Feb 22 2011, 09:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834373"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fix: Increase spread dramatically for shotgun. Shotgun still should 1-2 shot a skulk right in front of him, skulk shouldn't be able to charge a shotgun wielding marine and do very well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I said that and I was given some lecture about how it would somehow make the shotgun MORE effective. I don't think they read my post correctly.
<!--quoteo(post=1834373:date=Feb 23 2011, 05:02 AM:name=Killpo1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Killpo1 @ Feb 23 2011, 05:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834373"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fix: Increase spread dramatically for shotgun. Shotgun still should 1-2 shot a skulk right in front of him, skulk shouldn't be able to charge a shotgun wielding marine and do very well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. The fix is to DECREASE the spread dramatically. I've already made two posts about this. The shotgun is <b>useless</b> at range because of the already tremendous spread (27 degrees from the centre), so a player has to get in close to kill a skulk - <b>which they do</b>, or rather the skulks come to them. <b>However</b>, at that close range, it is <b>very easy</b>, because of the tremendous spread, to kill a skulk, <b>even if you miss</b>. Note that it only takes HALF of your shot to kill a skulk. If you miss, and half of your pellets miss, you will still kill the skulk. Clearly you need to do two things: 1. Encourage use at range. How? Dramatically decrease the spread. 2. Make it harder to hit skulks at point blank. How? Dramatically decrease the spread. And we're not even talking about realism, here. But if we were, 27 degree spread for a shotgun? You've got to be kidding me. At 10 feet away, that circle is 10.2 feet in diameter. What kind of shotgun is that? Clearly designed to miss. What kind of barrel would you need to reproduce that? The game has currently designed the shotgun to hold the hands of players with terrible aim - that's why the spread is so large and there are ten pellets where the damage for each pellet is so large (20 - twice that of a rifle bullet). Instead it just rewards marines for getting in at melee range to one-shot skulks, and punishes people with good aim at any range by having most of their shot miss.
<!--quoteo(post=1834470:date=Feb 22 2011, 09:48 PM:name=Zuriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zuriki @ Feb 22 2011, 09:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1834470"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I said that and I was given some lecture about how it would somehow make the shotgun MORE effective. I don't think they read my post correctly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think Harimau meant that a shotgun is good at close range due to the spread - the wide spread means increased hit chance. In compensation, the shotgun has it's damage increased to the point that it remains effective. Increasing the spread would mean also increasing the damage to keep parity, further making the shotgun even more imbalanced.
A shotgun with a tight 10° cone and reduced damage will have greater utility, still OHK at close range, but require much greater skill in aiming to accomplish what the high damage high spread shotgun does by just waving it in front of you.
To recap: Shotgun with high damage, high spread - no skill required, inflexible, not-competitive. Shotgun with moderate spread, moderate damage - skill required, flexible, competitive.
Thank you, Faustinian. Good to know that someone understands what I'm getting at. 10 degrees does seem pretty good. At 10 feet, the circle of diameter would be 3.53 feet. Not exactly precise, but it does allow a player some room for error. Oh, I should also note that at 1 foot, the circle of diameter would be 4.2 inches. If you do not hit a skulk head-on at that range, you are not going to kill him.
I find that the solution to the flamethrower is similar to that of the shotgun. Decrease the cone of fire drastically at close distances so it is harder to use against players at closer distances; but perhaps have it expand non-linearly (curve outward). Have damage proportional to density (but since density decreases with range, then damage decreases with range) - this will make it too weak to use effectively at long ranges. This will naturally result in a middle range for anti-player flamethrower use, but players will still be able to get up close to structures and kill them. And fix the burn - make it require an ignition time (possibly X amount of damage within the last Y seconds), and give it a static burn time (Z seconds) AT LEAST for players. I think the rifle works fairly well now though, after they tightened the cone from 4 to 3 degrees.
I must agree with you there. The more I play as/against the flamethrower the more I realise that the flamethrower is not actually the overpowered weapon here.
I think someone said this before "The flamethrower is not what kills the fade, it is the shotgun" and I completely agree.
Yes the flamethrower has a long range (Which should be decreased) that makes it look stupid and Yes it can kill skulks in a matter of seconds but also the skulk can kill the flamethrower if they are taken by surprise.
The shotgun is the OP weapon of the marines. It can easily kill a structure of the kharaa and can easily kill the Skulks.
I have to agree with Hari here and I also think that the spread should be <b>decreased</b> giving it a moderate range and a moderate amount of damage.
The conclusion I have come to: <!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> The flamethrower = <b>NOT</b> over-powered!<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--quoteo(post=1835164:date=Feb 26 2011, 08:19 PM:name=Papayas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Papayas @ Feb 26 2011, 08:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835164"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I must agree with you there. The more I play as/against the flamethrower the more I realise that the flamethrower is not actually the overpowered weapon here.
I think someone said this before "The flamethrower is not what kills the fade, it is the shotgun" and I completely agree.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. Without the shotgun the fade would be horribly OP due to its ability to blink away, and obviously the flamethrower doesn't work very well at all against a fade (you literally need to keep them in range of fire for 1+ bottles of fuel). What marines need is a weapon that can deliver a lot of damage instantly BEFORE the fade can run away. Clearly the shotgun IS that weapon. It sure wasn't very useful a few patches ago, and the damage boost changed everyones opinion of the weapon. I mean there was almost no point in buying a shotgun back then, and now i don't want to leave base with anything less then a shotgun. Rifle is ehh... feels like submachine gun with these new sounds.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2011
@Harimau I think that the aliens need more effective counters against the Shotgun. Umbra is suppose to be the defensive counter, but it is currently not very effective due to its short duration and stationary nature. The Lerk can gas and snipe shotgunners from range, but it is sometimes very risky, because of the lack of cover in some parts of the map (and the Lerk's awkward flight control). Alien defensive structures are also rather ineffective at the moment. Whips, Crags, and Hydras are all just Shotgun fodders that delay the marines for only a few seconds.
If the spread of the Shotgun is tightened, wouldn't that make it even deadlier against the Lerk (as well as Skulks!) at medium/long range? Shotgun's range-based damage dropoff will need some adjustments.
Well I would pair the spread-tightening with a severe damage drop. By half, actually (from 20, down to 10). That way, if at least 9 (out of 10) of your pellets hit, you will still be able to one-shot a skulk. But otherwise, it will be rather difficult. It will of course take twice as many shots to kill a fade, possibly a full "clip". Basically it's as Faustinian said, the current shotgun kind of assumes you have terrible aim - hence the massive spread (a crutch), but to account for the low likelihood of a hit, it bumps up the damage per pellet to something really high (20~14), so that for example, if only 30% of your pellets hit (3 out of 10), you'll still deal 60 damage, more than halfway to a skulk's death. Tightening the cone will remove the crutch so you'll have to actually aim at skulks for one thing, and based on the assumption that players CAN hit skulks, you can nerf the damage per pellet, as well.
First i will address the flamethrower: needs a lot of balancing work.. i mean a lot. I hate aliens, I'm biased i know. alien scum :)
We are going for big picture here.
Functionality: +It hasn't found it's nitch yet. -I really don't like its functionality right now. -It is way too much of a deterrence to aliens, as much as i hate them. -If you picture a large scale game and 1 guy with a flamethrower and maybe couple marines.. even a semi big group of aliens would hesitate to go in. It's a game changer.
+Anti infestation; How i see it working
-Necessary for strategy to expand, need it to clear the room out. -Not effective as a offensive weapon -I don't think i want aliens catching on fire, buff aliens give them fire retardant skin. Same for structures. -To compromise as long as you have armor you wont catch fire? Armor greatly reduces flame effectiveness -Range on flamethrower is real short, about 4 yards with a huge distance damage fall off, like 2 yards of effectiveness very short range. Versus infestation damage is constant at any range. -Each canister has decent amount of fuel 10 seconds of flame or so. -Short range, immediate damage, no dots or energy debuff.
Shotgun: It's way too good. Making a cone tighter usually is a buff. This is a weird thing to balance, more spread, less damage per pellet, armor penetration(should be lower than rifle), damage fall off, should be pretty useless after about 10 yards.
+1 to Harimau (w/ Faustinian's) Shotgun suggestion.
I also find it pretty silly that everything catches fire immediately, so +1 for catching fire only after X damage has been done. Alternatively, consider a carapace upgrade (or feature) that makes you immune to catching fire (but not necessarily taking damage) while you still have armor?
Acutally... I think the flamer is weaker then the most of the writers here think.
In a battle one fade against one flamer-marine the fade will most likely win. A marine needs more then a full fueltank to kill the fade. As a fade I had a battle against two flame-marines in rockdown (they were constantly pushing central hive and they kept comming with flamers) I managed it to kill them both about six times before they got a shotgun and blasted me away.
The flamethrower is a support weapon, not a assault weapon and I think that it kills lerks and skulks easily is all right because its a Tier 2 weapon. It has to be strong. Besides.. a skulk is able to kill a flamer-marine with a little efford and - of course- with alienvision enabled.
Comments
Certainly!
I hope DI will be really dynamic in the end (growing on its own). That would be so cool...
I hope DI will be really dynamic in the end (growing on its own). That would be so cool...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and not a flat bitmap but rather hilly like in the early video :)
100% agree, not just for DI either. I always have fun trying new features even if they are currently broken or still WIP. Although I saw a bunch of complaining on the day of b163, DI is actually pretty fun right now but clearly has a lot left to add/change. Seems frequent patches might be happening more now? I can guarantee this will prove to be a good thing. As I'm sure you're aware there seems to be a 'falloff' of activity after a few days from a patch and the longer it goes the fewer and fewer players online. Eventually it gets to the point where games are started by finding a server and sitting there for 10-20 minutes hoping to attract others. I think most of the issue is from players needing something to look forward to every week or so (without being a tease) and more patches are going to keep people sticking around much longer, or so I would think.
+1
Well said.
I said that and I was given some lecture about how it would somehow make the shotgun MORE effective. I don't think they read my post correctly.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
The fix is to DECREASE the spread dramatically. I've already made two posts about this. The shotgun is <b>useless</b> at range because of the already tremendous spread (27 degrees from the centre), so a player has to get in close to kill a skulk - <b>which they do</b>, or rather the skulks come to them. <b>However</b>, at that close range, it is <b>very easy</b>, because of the tremendous spread, to kill a skulk, <b>even if you miss</b>. Note that it only takes HALF of your shot to kill a skulk. If you miss, and half of your pellets miss, you will still kill the skulk.
Clearly you need to do two things:
1. Encourage use at range. How? Dramatically decrease the spread.
2. Make it harder to hit skulks at point blank. How? Dramatically decrease the spread.
And we're not even talking about realism, here. But if we were, 27 degree spread for a shotgun? You've got to be kidding me. At 10 feet away, that circle is 10.2 feet in diameter. What kind of shotgun is that? Clearly designed to miss. What kind of barrel would you need to reproduce that?
The game has currently designed the shotgun to hold the hands of players with terrible aim - that's why the spread is so large and there are ten pellets where the damage for each pellet is so large (20 - twice that of a rifle bullet). Instead it just rewards marines for getting in at melee range to one-shot skulks, and punishes people with good aim at any range by having most of their shot miss.
I think Harimau meant that a shotgun is good at close range due to the spread - the wide spread means increased hit chance. In compensation, the shotgun has it's damage increased to the point that it remains effective. Increasing the spread would mean also increasing the damage to keep parity, further making the shotgun even more imbalanced.
A shotgun with a tight 10° cone and reduced damage will have greater utility, still OHK at close range, but require much greater skill in aiming to accomplish what the high damage high spread shotgun does by just waving it in front of you.
To recap: Shotgun with high damage, high spread - no skill required, inflexible, not-competitive. Shotgun with moderate spread, moderate damage - skill required, flexible, competitive.
10 degrees does seem pretty good. At 10 feet, the circle of diameter would be 3.53 feet. Not exactly precise, but it does allow a player some room for error.
Oh, I should also note that at 1 foot, the circle of diameter would be 4.2 inches. If you do not hit a skulk head-on at that range, you are not going to kill him.
Aliens are visceral fun and are each different, but as a Marines I feel very bland.
I think the rifle works fairly well now though, after they tightened the cone from 4 to 3 degrees.
I think someone said this before "The flamethrower is not what kills the fade, it is the shotgun" and I completely agree.
Yes the flamethrower has a long range (Which should be decreased) that makes it look stupid and Yes it can kill skulks in a matter of seconds but also the skulk can kill the flamethrower if they are taken by surprise.
The shotgun is the OP weapon of the marines. It can easily kill a structure of the kharaa and can easily kill the Skulks.
I have to agree with Hari here and I also think that the spread should be <b>decreased</b> giving it a moderate range and a moderate amount of damage.
The conclusion I have come to:
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->
The flamethrower = <b>NOT</b> over-powered!<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->The shotgun = <b>IS</b> over-powered!<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
I think someone said this before "The flamethrower is not what kills the fade, it is the shotgun" and I completely agree.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. Without the shotgun the fade would be horribly OP due to its ability to blink away, and obviously the flamethrower doesn't work very well at all against a fade (you literally need to keep them in range of fire for 1+ bottles of fuel). What marines need is a weapon that can deliver a lot of damage instantly BEFORE the fade can run away. Clearly the shotgun IS that weapon. It sure wasn't very useful a few patches ago, and the damage boost changed everyones opinion of the weapon. I mean there was almost no point in buying a shotgun back then, and now i don't want to leave base with anything less then a shotgun. Rifle is ehh... feels like submachine gun with these new sounds.
If the spread of the Shotgun is tightened, wouldn't that make it even deadlier against the Lerk (as well as Skulks!) at medium/long range? Shotgun's range-based damage dropoff will need some adjustments.
Basically it's as Faustinian said, the current shotgun kind of assumes you have terrible aim - hence the massive spread (a crutch), but to account for the low likelihood of a hit, it bumps up the damage per pellet to something really high (20~14), so that for example, if only 30% of your pellets hit (3 out of 10), you'll still deal 60 damage, more than halfway to a skulk's death.
Tightening the cone will remove the crutch so you'll have to actually aim at skulks for one thing, and based on the assumption that players CAN hit skulks, you can nerf the damage per pellet, as well.
We are going for big picture here.
Functionality:
+It hasn't found it's nitch yet.
-I really don't like its functionality right now.
-It is way too much of a deterrence to aliens, as much as i hate them.
-If you picture a large scale game and 1 guy with a flamethrower and maybe couple marines.. even a semi big group of aliens would hesitate to go in. It's a game changer.
+Anti infestation; How i see it working
-Necessary for strategy to expand, need it to clear the room out.
-Not effective as a offensive weapon
-I don't think i want aliens catching on fire, buff aliens give them fire retardant skin. Same for structures.
-To compromise as long as you have armor you wont catch fire? Armor greatly reduces flame effectiveness
-Range on flamethrower is real short, about 4 yards with a huge distance damage fall off, like 2 yards of effectiveness very short range. Versus infestation damage is constant at any range.
-Each canister has decent amount of fuel 10 seconds of flame or so.
-Short range, immediate damage, no dots or energy debuff.
Shotgun: It's way too good. Making a cone tighter usually is a buff. This is a weird thing to balance, more spread, less damage per pellet, armor penetration(should be lower than rifle), damage fall off, should be pretty useless after about 10 yards.
I also find it pretty silly that everything catches fire immediately, so +1 for catching fire only after X damage has been done.
Alternatively, consider a carapace upgrade (or feature) that makes you immune to catching fire (but not necessarily taking damage) while you still have armor?
In a battle one fade against one flamer-marine the fade will most likely win. A marine needs more then a full fueltank to kill the fade.
As a fade I had a battle against two flame-marines in rockdown (they were constantly pushing central hive and they kept comming with flamers)
I managed it to kill them both about six times before they got a shotgun and blasted me away.
The flamethrower is a support weapon, not a assault weapon and I think that it kills lerks and skulks easily is all right because its a Tier 2 weapon. It has to be strong.
Besides.. a skulk is able to kill a flamer-marine with a little efford and - of course- with alienvision enabled.