<!--quoteo(post=1862027:date=Jul 21 2011, 12:37 AM:name=yaval3n)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yaval3n @ Jul 21 2011, 12:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1862027"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What are peoples thoughts on using mods during matches? Are they acceptable or no? By that i'm referring to using things such as "r_mode unlit" as well as any of the customizations that come out of the modding forums like the alien vision, minimap, etc. Is it all fair game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If the "exploiting" aint blatant and aint written in rules go ahead.
I don't participate in clan matches (i'm not in a clan either), nor do I have any power over the rules afaik, but I would assume that any mod that is making it harder for you is ok (such as total darkness when power is dead).
I also think that the alien vision mod and my minimap mod should be allowed, despite being usefull. Mainly because the alien vision mod makes the world not be constant shades of red, green and black, but actually lets you see what the mapper wants you to see, while my minimap mod only fix bugs, and enables functionality that I assume uwe actually intend for it (correct colors, displaying structures, self-FOV and such).
If others don't think mods should be allowed, I think that at least my mod should be ^^
<!--quoteo(post=1862031:date=Jul 20 2011, 04:44 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 20 2011, 04:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1862031"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the "exploiting" aint blatant and aint written in rules go ahead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sweet. anything for the win I always say.
FYI - if anyone hasn't tried out "r_mode unlit" check it out. It will remove all the lighting effects from the game. All shadows will be gone and power node won't cause lights to go out. Great for ruining the day of some skulk who thinks he's hiding in the shadows for an ambush. lol
I would assume any console commands not listed here would be prohibited. I think that in competitive gaming, modifications should have to be white-listed to be allowed. :P
Why would you even want to use r_unlit? I modded my client to change how a broken powernode affect lighting, but opposite to what r_unlit does. On my client, unpowered lamps turn off entirely, instead of that red emergency lighting.
<!--quoteo(post=1862042:date=Jul 20 2011, 05:31 PM:name=Feha)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Feha @ Jul 20 2011, 05:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1862042"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would assume any console commands not listed here would be prohibited. I think that in competitive gaming, modifications should have to be white-listed to be allowed. :P
Why would you even want to use r_unlit? I modded my client to change how a broken powernode affect lighting, but opposite to what r_unlit does. On my client, unpowered lamps turn off entirely, instead of that red emergency lighting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you're asking *why* someone would want more light instead of less light in a competitive match? really?
Yes, really. Even though it is competitive, the darkness really adds to the atmosphere. I assume you don't want to remove stuff like the weapons viewmodel, so why would you want to get rid of lighting? They both contribute a lot to how the game feels, but also makes it harder to see stuff.
<!--quoteo(post=1862045:date=Jul 20 2011, 03:54 PM:name=Feha)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Feha @ Jul 20 2011, 03:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1862045"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, really. Even though it is competitive, the darkness really adds to the atmosphere. I assume you don't want to remove stuff like the weapons viewmodel, so why would you want to get rid of lighting? They both contribute a lot to how the game feels, but also makes it harder to see stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think yaval3n tried to point out that somebody might invert the mod and incease the amout of light in powerless areas.
In public play I don't mind mods, but I would prefer not to use them in a clan match. Remember, there is a reason, why the normal Alienvision for instance has its downside.
<!--quoteo(post=1862035:date=Jul 21 2011, 12:08 AM:name=yaval3n)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yaval3n @ Jul 21 2011, 12:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1862035"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->FYI - if anyone hasn't tried out "r_mode unlit" check it out. It will remove all the lighting effects from the game. All shadows will be gone and power node won't cause lights to go out. Great for ruining the day of some skulk who thinks he's hiding in the shadows for an ambush. lol<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds totally lame. May as well use r_wireframe while you're at it.
<!--quoteo(post=1862052:date=Jul 21 2011, 02:12 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jul 21 2011, 02:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1862052"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sounds totally lame. May as well use r_wireframe while you're at it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why not if it helps you lol!
Whitewalls with blackmodels would be a nice addition to increase the playablility, anyone up for the task?
You guys are making me depressed now :( I am not a big fan of graphics myself, but I <i>do</i> find the atmosphere important. And I cant think of any way white walls and black entities would help the atmosphere :S Also, white walls is not enough, you would need to outline the faces to see contrast, maybe even make them a different white depending on their angle.
Also, the only downside of the alien vision I know of, is that it makes the game feel bland when you have it constantly turned on (which I obviously do because of how it highlights entities). That is why I like the alien vision mod, it allows me to see what the mapper intended for me to see, not just green, black and red :P
Its done to remove all lighting or non-lighting issues. Its like having fullbright on in source. UWE could fix this pretty quick by requiring cheats or dev to be activated (e.g. cheats 1 or dev 1 in console) before you can use any of the r_mode effects.
I just fell in love with "r_mode depth". Is it possible to get the same effect, but with lighting still enabled (although I would definitely dim them in that case)?. I think I will also try a game with the "normals" and another with "specular". One is psychedelic, and I don't really know why the other feels so charming.
McGlaspiewww.team156.comJoin Date: 2010-07-26Member: 73044Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester
Imo, any of the r_mode options should not be allowed in a multiplayer setting. Most especially r_mode unlit. Unlit eliminates all shadows, which give any skulks trying to hide in said shadows a huge disadvantage. This should be limited to some kind of development mode (dev 1), which at the same time should prevent players from being able to join servers (excluding a listen/local server).
It would be really useful if you guys could start forming some kind of ruleset for graphical tweaking, it's good for both the potential future leagues and also for devs to better understand what kind of tweaks people might be running on the clientside.
As a blunt guideline I'd say the r_mode tweaking should be forbidden for now at least. You can allow specifics later on if necessary. It's a good start at least. However, I feel the whole lighting related gaming is going to be pretty controversial when it comes to tweaking. A good basic ruleset and general understanding of NS2 tweaking would probably benefit the early leagues greatly.
there is no point really to set up rules if you cant enforce them. some players will always use it if possible, leaving the others at a disadvantage. I hope that these settings can be enabled/disabled by server admins in the future.
<!--quoteo(post=1862126:date=Jul 21 2011, 07:59 AM:name=Taxen0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Taxen0 @ Jul 21 2011, 07:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1862126"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->there is no point really to set up rules if you cant enforce them. some players will always use it if possible, leaving the others at a disadvantage. I hope that these settings can be enabled/disabled by server admins in the future.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think anyone is playing NS2 serious enough to look for actual advantage at this point. There's absolutely nothing on the line until the game is widely considered highly playable and complete.
At this point it's a good opportunity to look for suitable rulesets. That way you've got a good basis and general idea for any rules needed once more serious competetetion and tools for setting enforcement come.
<!--quoteo(post=1862154:date=Jul 21 2011, 02:18 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jul 21 2011, 02:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1862154"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think anyone is playing NS2 serious enough to look for actual advantage at this point. There's absolutely nothing on the line until the game is widely considered highly playable and complete.
At this point it's a good opportunity to look for suitable rulesets. That way you've got a good basis and general idea for any rules needed once more serious competetetion and tools for setting enforcement come.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1862154:date=Jul 21 2011, 12:18 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jul 21 2011, 12:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1862154"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think anyone is playing NS2 serious enough to look for actual advantage at this point. There's absolutely nothing on the line until the game is widely considered highly playable and complete.
At this point it's a good opportunity to look for suitable rulesets. That way you've got a good basis and general idea for any rules needed once more serious competetetion and tools for setting enforcement come.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sure , investigating rules etc is all good. and atm there are not even a handful of clans, those can probably all follow the rules.
But there is always people that will look for advantages, even in unoptimised betas. personally I use r_mode unlit when playing alien commander, so I can see what I'm doing. that would be unfair if I was playing a "real" match and the others didn't.
And marines that use it get a lot better vs skulks, that depend on ambushing these days.
<!--quoteo(post=1862156:date=Jul 21 2011, 01:18 PM:name=Taxen0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Taxen0 @ Jul 21 2011, 01:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1862156"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure , investigating rules etc is all good. and atm there are not even a handful of clans, those can probably all follow the rules.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, this was the whole point.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And marines that use it get a lot better vs skulks, that depend on ambushing these days.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is part of the reason why I'd like to start discussion on the configuration sooner rather than later. The whole lighting oriented gameplay is a nightmare when it comes to having an even playing field necessary for competetive play. Right now it seems to be one of the major problems the competetive NS2 is going to face.
vlncJoin Date: 2010-09-07Member: 73921Members, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2011
Yeah you're right, it's a fun cup/match.
BUT, it's not fair if players use some commands to help them to see better others (like removing shadows (i'm not talking about r_shadows), textures, walls ...)
I'm not an expert about the client commands in console, the only i used are these in the #1 (just for remember) :
The mods I'm using are Alien Vision Mode and Oma's customizations crosshairs but if you think it"s not fair, I'll remove them (or just not use them for clan match)
I don't know what r_mode unlit does but i'll test it on my server later.
Yeah I would appreciate if you guys can help me to define a black/white lists of console commands / mods.
But there is still a problem, if all these commands are client side only, how to see if someone use them or not (talking about wireframe or things like that) ? Is it possible to block them by a "promod" or something like that ?
Those commands are part of the engine and cannot be influenced in any way from Lua, so the answer would be no they cannot be blocked at this time.
But shadows\bloom\lighting are the least of your worries when it comes to cheating right now. A more important issue is that the client Lua-VM is not synced with the server. This means it is trivial to write all kinds of cheats in Lua (aimbots for one, would be easy to create). Supposedly a Server-Client sync will be put into the game at some point before v1.0, but until then anti-cheating pretty much comes down to a gentlemen's accord.
I'm curious, what kind of systems would a finished game normally use to block these kinds of commands in online play? Is this something that a system like VAC would handle?
<!--quoteo(post=1862276:date=Jul 21 2011, 11:41 PM:name=NS2HD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2HD @ Jul 21 2011, 11:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1862276"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm curious, what kind of systems would a finished game normally use to block these kinds of commands in online play? Is this something that a system like VAC would handle?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pretty sure they can make these commands cheat protected just like in source games. They also have wireframe mode etc. but the server needs cheats enabled for it to work. I think UW probably hasn't gotten around to it yet because that kind of stuff is for when the game is almost complete.
I'd also like to see something like sv_pure that blocks the use of custom models and mods for competitive play.
I personally think anything that is added, subtracted or modified in any way different that what any player downloading and playing the game for the first time is an unfair advantage and SHOULD NOT be used.
It needs to be a level playing field for EVERYONE, not just the people that write scripts or alter views to gain an advantage.
I played in CAL in NS1 and almost everyone had scripts, if you didnt you got owned. I think it should be natural like a fresh install with no add ons or alterations, period. That makes it fair for everyone.
Well, you can't block these commands from lua. But you can execute commands from lua. I thought about a mod that simply sends the command "r_mode lit" to all clients every 5 seconds.
edit: Well, said it, done it. Simply extract the attached lua file in "NS2GmOvrmind\lua" or if you are not using Overmind in "anticheat\lua" and run the server.exe with "-game anticheat" (without the quotes).
If you open the file with a text editor you can add commands to the list (kCommandList, put them inside the brackets { and } ), seperate each command with a comma ( , ). You can modify the interval in which the commands are sent, too (kSendInterval, in seconds).
And you can deactivate it by putting "//" (without the quotes) in front of the Event.Hook at the bottom (Server restart required for that)
I think someone should report in getsetisfaction that the developers need to put r_mode into the cheatcodes. I am pretty sure that tey don't reat this entire topic.. and If they do that the might miss that part.
Comments
If the "exploiting" aint blatant and aint written in rules go ahead.
I also think that the alien vision mod and my minimap mod should be allowed, despite being usefull.
Mainly because the alien vision mod makes the world not be constant shades of red, green and black, but actually lets you see what the mapper wants you to see, while my minimap mod only fix bugs, and enables functionality that I assume uwe actually intend for it (correct colors, displaying structures, self-FOV and such).
If others don't think mods should be allowed, I think that at least my mod should be ^^
sweet. anything for the win I always say.
FYI - if anyone hasn't tried out "r_mode unlit" check it out. It will remove all the lighting effects from the game. All shadows will be gone and power node won't cause lights to go out. Great for ruining the day of some skulk who thinks he's hiding in the shadows for an ambush. lol
r_shadows true/false : Enable/Disable shadow rendering
r_atmospherics true/false : Enable/Disable God Rays
r_bloom true/false : Enable/Disable Bloom
r_flash true/false : Turn flash GUI on/off<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would assume any console commands not listed here would be prohibited. I think that in competitive gaming, modifications should have to be white-listed to be allowed. :P
Why would you even want to use r_unlit? I modded my client to change how a broken powernode affect lighting, but opposite to what r_unlit does. On my client, unpowered lamps turn off entirely, instead of that red emergency lighting.
Why would you even want to use r_unlit? I modded my client to change how a broken powernode affect lighting, but opposite to what r_unlit does. On my client, unpowered lamps turn off entirely, instead of that red emergency lighting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you're asking *why* someone would want more light instead of less light in a competitive match? really?
I think yaval3n tried to point out that somebody might invert the mod and incease the amout of light in powerless areas.
In public play I don't mind mods, but I would prefer not to use them in a clan match.
Remember, there is a reason, why the normal Alienvision for instance has its downside.
Sounds totally lame. May as well use r_wireframe while you're at it.
Why not if it helps you lol!
Whitewalls with blackmodels would be a nice addition to increase the playablility, anyone up for the task?
Whitewalls with blackmodels would be a nice addition to increase the playablility, anyone up for the task?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can't tell if serious....
I am not a big fan of graphics myself, but I <i>do</i> find the atmosphere important. And I cant think of any way white walls and black entities would help the atmosphere :S
Also, white walls is not enough, you would need to outline the faces to see contrast, maybe even make them a different white depending on their angle.
Also, the only downside of the alien vision I know of, is that it makes the game feel bland when you have it constantly turned on (which I obviously do because of how it highlights entities).
That is why I like the alien vision mod, it allows me to see what the mapper intended for me to see, not just green, black and red :P
Its done to remove all lighting or non-lighting issues. Its like having fullbright on in source. UWE could fix this pretty quick by requiring cheats or dev to be activated (e.g. cheats 1 or dev 1 in console) before you can use any of the r_mode effects.
As a blunt guideline I'd say the r_mode tweaking should be forbidden for now at least. You can allow specifics later on if necessary. It's a good start at least. However, I feel the whole lighting related gaming is going to be pretty controversial when it comes to tweaking. A good basic ruleset and general understanding of NS2 tweaking would probably benefit the early leagues greatly.
I hope that these settings can be enabled/disabled by server admins in the future.
I hope that these settings can be enabled/disabled by server admins in the future.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think anyone is playing NS2 serious enough to look for actual advantage at this point. There's absolutely nothing on the line until the game is widely considered highly playable and complete.
At this point it's a good opportunity to look for suitable rulesets. That way you've got a good basis and general idea for any rules needed once more serious competetetion and tools for setting enforcement come.
At this point it's a good opportunity to look for suitable rulesets. That way you've got a good basis and general idea for any rules needed once more serious competetetion and tools for setting enforcement come.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1. yeah, take the words "for fun" serious XD
At this point it's a good opportunity to look for suitable rulesets. That way you've got a good basis and general idea for any rules needed once more serious competetetion and tools for setting enforcement come.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure , investigating rules etc is all good. and atm there are not even a handful of clans, those can probably all follow the rules.
But there is always people that will look for advantages, even in unoptimised betas.
personally I use r_mode unlit when playing alien commander, so I can see what I'm doing.
that would be unfair if I was playing a "real" match and the others didn't.
And marines that use it get a lot better vs skulks, that depend on ambushing these days.
Yeah, this was the whole point.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And marines that use it get a lot better vs skulks, that depend on ambushing these days.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is part of the reason why I'd like to start discussion on the configuration sooner rather than later. The whole lighting oriented gameplay is a nightmare when it comes to having an even playing field necessary for competetive play. Right now it seems to be one of the major problems the competetive NS2 is going to face.
BUT, it's not fair if players use some commands to help them to see better others (like removing shadows (i'm not talking about r_shadows), textures, walls ...)
I'm not an expert about the client commands in console, the only i used are these in the #1 (just for remember) :
r_shadows true/false : Enable/Disable shadow rendering (used)
r_atmospherics true/false : Enable/Disable God Rays (used)
r_bloom true/false : Enable/Disable Bloom (used)
r_flash true/false : Turn flash GUI on/off (never or rarely used)
The mods I'm using are Alien Vision Mode and Oma's customizations crosshairs but if you think it"s not fair, I'll remove them (or just not use them for clan match)
I don't know what r_mode unlit does but i'll test it on my server later.
Yeah I would appreciate if you guys can help me to define a black/white lists of console commands / mods.
But there is still a problem, if all these commands are client side only, how to see if someone use them or not (talking about wireframe or things like that) ? Is it possible to block them by a "promod" or something like that ?
But shadows\bloom\lighting are the least of your worries when it comes to cheating right now. A more important issue is that the client Lua-VM is not synced with the server. This means it is trivial to write all kinds of cheats in Lua (aimbots for one, would be easy to create). Supposedly a Server-Client sync will be put into the game at some point before v1.0, but until then anti-cheating pretty much comes down to a gentlemen's accord.
I'm pretty sure they can make these commands cheat protected just like in source games. They also have wireframe mode etc. but the server needs cheats enabled for it to work. I think UW probably hasn't gotten around to it yet because that kind of stuff is for when the game is almost complete.
I'd also like to see something like sv_pure that blocks the use of custom models and mods for competitive play.
It needs to be a level playing field for EVERYONE, not just the people that write scripts or alter views to gain an advantage.
I played in CAL in NS1 and almost everyone had scripts, if you didnt you got owned. I think it should be natural like a fresh install with no add ons or alterations, period. That makes it fair for everyone.
just my 2 cents.
Playa_2b
edit: Well, said it, done it. Simply extract the attached lua file in "NS2GmOvrmind\lua" or if you are not using Overmind in "anticheat\lua" and run the server.exe with "-game anticheat" (without the quotes).
If you open the file with a text editor you can add commands to the list (kCommandList, put them inside the brackets { and } ), seperate each command with a comma ( , ). You can modify the interval in which the commands are sent, too (kSendInterval, in seconds).
And you can deactivate it by putting "//" (without the quotes) in front of the Event.Hook at the bottom (Server restart required for that)
ok, not how it sounded.