<!--quoteo(post=1884528:date=Nov 10 2011, 08:19 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Nov 10 2011, 08:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are several reasons why bots are useful, one of which is for people who are first trying out NS2 and want to learn and practice the game, before jumping into a full server with people who yell at them for not knowing what they are doing.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I for one like the idea, while jumping into a server and playing was never really an issue for me, the ability to play a bot game for practice doesnt sound to bad, especially if your going to join some big NS1 style map you have never played before. On maps like summit its hard to get lost but i can remember starting ns1 the first time and having not a single clue whats going on.
As for people yelling at you, so far i haven't experienced that my self, most players currently in ns2 are kind and respectful to each other. But i guess that also has to do with it being beta, so people know that stuff sometimes doesnt go as planned, even outside the players fault (performance) Like going down to a skulk bouncing between walls and roofs with sudden lag spikes just to name something.
I also like the bot support for the possibility of a more singleplayer/story mode that someone could make, like an rts or fps style campaign. Not saying it should, ns2 is a multiplayer game after all, but that doesnt take away from the fact that campaigns can be a very fun and usefull instrument of lerning and lore expansion, as well as giving some options that cant be done in multiplayer, or even multiplayer maps with a different game mode (like maybe survival maps, were you have to survive an AI alien onslaught for as many rounds as possible to just trow something out there).
<!--quoteo(post=1884558:date=Nov 10 2011, 02:28 PM:name=ZycaR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ZycaR @ Nov 10 2011, 02:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884558"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What are the requirements for Bots? Should they be able to join Com/Hive? .. will be nice to have at least idea about complexity of problem :D
PS: It's time to start digging into LUA code ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Absolutely they should be able to command, if they didn't, you'd just end up with what we have now. On team of basic skulks versus fully upgraded Marines.
I Like the idea of bots too, even though i have a fair internet connection, theres some people out there that dont and wish to play this game, in all its glory..
I think the only way people would accept bots, is if they were flagged as bots but also have a filter for no bots in multi-player or something.
Games like CSS, the bots in there are good pratice for me and i don't mind them when the server is empty. It is good to be able to pass the time playing against bots whilst waiting for more players to join... and also in games like Battlefield the bots are very handy, so why not this game?
Bots are still an important part of any game, even if some people out there dislike them,not everyone can afford the top internet connection and most ISPs do not give you, what they say they can..
I'll try to create gorge cyst placement bot :) with these main features:
STATE [waiting for gorge] - hang around Hive (spawn point) while not enough res to evolve into gorge. - if spot marine, try to attack (as current bot)
STATE [gorge] - a) get collection of all resource nozzles without alien harvesters (order them by distance from spawn hive) - b) follow existing cyst placement in path to nearest uncap Resource nozzle - c) when no more cyst are found and you are not in resource nozzle .. place some cyst while you not reach the nozzle - d) remove nozzle from collection and go back to spawn location - e) repeat from b) in between: - if spot marine, try to run to spawn location (follow cysts) and do Heal attack as fast as can :) - if you are dead, re-spawn and start with a)
It's main purpose of gorge in early state of game. and the cysts are needed almost every time. I hope it's simple enough to be implemented easily.
... hen the server can create 1-2 gorge bots for aliens to be able to manage cyst placement across map.
<!--quoteo(post=1884530:date=Nov 10 2011, 06:25 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Nov 10 2011, 06:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884530"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The game shouldn't require bots so you can learn it before jumping in to a server. If there was a single-player story with good bots then that would be different, although a multiplayer game shouldn't be so complex you need to use bots for basic understanding; maybe for mastering/self-practice at commander button mashing but not for initial learning. That implies you haven't learned from the complexity in NS1 that put new players off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Natural Selection isn't that complicated a game, there's no reason to change game mechanics to make learning the game easier, as it's only a very small portion of the total game experience. One should instead develop better documentation and ways to teach new players the mechanics if it's a problem.
<!--quoteo(post=1884531:date=Nov 10 2011, 08:40 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Nov 10 2011, 08:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884531"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The way I see it, NS2 could be a lot more intuitive with things like the HUD improvement right now though. The last time I tried the game, it was confusing even for a player that knows NS1 by heart and has very little trouble jumping into games in general.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We agree, and have plans to do a lot more with proper HUD notifications, and general improvements to make things more immediately understandable and intuitive for new players. Our goal is to make the game a lot easier to jump into then NS1 was, and at least make it so first time players can have fun and some good experiences, even if they are a bit confused about how some things work to start with. Much of that work will come later, as we finish up more of the remaining features.
Having the ability to jump into a game offline and play around and figure out game mechanics, however, is still something that a fair amount of players would use to get more comfortable with the game. Especially on the commanding side. And bots help with that, mainly because we don't have the time and resources to do an extended single player tutorial/campaign.
As a designer working with a lot of women at work, something you always forget is the story element.
When working on projects I always get caught up with the nuts and bolts, and the technical side of the design process.
Women tend to put more of a story element to products/design and that is something I think UWE is missing. Story.
You will not learn how to play NS2 quickly from tool tips and the like at random times during the game.
Jumping in first time to discover that you can 'buy weapons here' does not teach the player anything.
I always give L4D/L4D2 as an example, as Valve do it beautifully.
UWE, you need to find points in the game from start to finish. All the way from starting the game on the desktop through to closing it down.
Work on a basic story that introduces a player .. 'Aliens vs Marines, you need res, hives/tech to upgrade' etc... and find key points where you can tell a story.
For example, the start menu background could be more than just a Marine standing there and a skulk running by.
It could be a couple of marines running to a res point, building an extractor and then moving into the background to assault an alien hive.
All this could be done in a non patronising cinematic way if done properly, with some vocals over the top.
The ready room is another space that you can add elements into.
<!--quoteo(post=1884595:date=Nov 10 2011, 08:15 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Nov 10 2011, 08:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884595"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->UWE, you need to find points in the game from start to finish. All the way from starting the game on the desktop through to closing it down.
The ready room is another space that you can add elements into.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, we've been discussing ways of incorporating video tutorials into the readyrooms, and other elements, like the map layout. Gameplay info and tips can be added to the loading screens. There's all sorts of approaches to feed the player more information, it just takes time to put all of that stuff in. But nothing is really off the table at this point.
<!--quoteo(post=1884602:date=Nov 10 2011, 11:38 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Nov 10 2011, 11:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884602"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, we've been discussing ways of incorporating video tutorials into the readyrooms, and other elements, like the map layout. Gameplay info and tips can be added to the loading screens. There's all sorts of approaches to feed the player more information, it just takes time to put all of that stuff in. But nothing is really off the table at this point.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would love to see loading screens with game art the hand drawn stuff not the actual 3d model, with tips to help understand what things do.
<!--quoteo(post=1884609:date=Nov 10 2011, 03:46 PM:name=rammaj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rammaj @ Nov 10 2011, 03:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884609"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would love to see loading screens with game art the hand drawn stuff not the actual 3d model, with tips to help understand what things do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like idea of bots as long as they're obvious before joining a server, in other games it felt like you were being fooled when you thought you were joining a full server only to find out it was full of bots, so make it obvious and include a filter, no human players equals 0 players, it always felt like a trick to get you to join.
It would be nice to see some changes to the menus now, there's a lot of improvements that could be added and already have by the community, it shouldn't take too long to add.
Very cool HUD, i like it, it feels so NS to see it :-) But i mean the first mockup not the second. I mean the minimap was on <a href="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ZzXevucGsR4/TPEk_TqT6LI/AAAAAAAAAoc/TEdfh6PKmd4/s1600/amjk1.jpg" target="_blank"> NS1</a> on right too...and it feels ok.
Does the HUD has a free App market? I'd love to check out the TSAFemaleMarineCalendar-widget while blasting aliens!
It would be awesome if the HUD itself moves a bit when looking around so you really get the feeling that it's a Visor, maybe even getting smaller and bigger with a minimal percentage, like the Eyes have to refocus.
<!--quoteo(post=1884730:date=Nov 12 2011, 04:48 AM:name=whoppaXXL)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (whoppaXXL @ Nov 12 2011, 04:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884730"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does the HUD has a free App market? I'd love to check out the TSAFemaleMarineCalendar-widget while blasting aliens!
It would be awesome if the HUD itself moves a bit when looking around so you really get the feeling that it's a Visor, maybe even getting smaller and bigger with a minimal percentage, like the Eyes have to refocus.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or take a look at Crysis 2's hud. It bobs the slightest bit with movement. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIw2h3h-LoA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIw2h3h-LoA</a> 4:30 is a good example
<!--quoteo(post=1884639:date=Nov 11 2011, 02:51 AM:name=whoppaXXL)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (whoppaXXL @ Nov 11 2011, 02:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884639"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->QUOTE (rammaj @ Nov 10 2011, 03:46 PM) I would love to see loading screens with game art the hand drawn stuff not the actual 3d model, with tips to help understand what things do.
And tiny bits of the lore please!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1 yay for ideas
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1884889:date=Nov 14 2011, 08:52 AM:name=BJHBnade_spammer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BJHBnade_spammer @ Nov 14 2011, 08:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884889"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->we should have the option of where we want the mini map to be on our hud.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i coded in now on request in another thread a console command to disable the hud minimap, even though i think nobody would use that option :) having the option the customize hud elements more would be really nice, but such goodies would come later when we rework the whole menu (since positioning hud elements via console commands is not very user friendly, you could then already simply edit the lua files as well). btw, editing the lua files is no magic. If you want to change the absolute position of an element or the alignment you would very fast find out which files and which values you need to change. if that question arrises more often (after 188 release) i will write a small tutorial in the modding section
<!--quoteo(post=1885027:date=Nov 15 2011, 04:17 PM:name=BJHBnade_spammer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BJHBnade_spammer @ Nov 15 2011, 04:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885027"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->go to options and switch the display mode to standard ive had that problem a few times before when following links people post<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanx got fixed :D
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just had a nice playtest on tram with random starts. It made the game a lot more fast-paced (marines in tram repair). Interesting. #fb<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Love the random start position, it adds a new layer to the game instead of just rushing in now people need some scouting just like in SC2. hope its one of the stuff that you guys keep into the game.
I'm really happy about the latest tweet! I really hope DI get some more love soon to make it into the awesome gameplay system it needs to be. It's already pretty cool, but some more fine tuning and polish will make it super awesome.
<!--quoteo(post=1885278:date=Nov 17 2011, 01:54 AM:name=stickyboot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stickyboot @ Nov 17 2011, 01:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1885278"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can you post the processing code of the cyst prototype? Or a screenshot?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1884892:date=Nov 14 2011, 06:22 AM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Nov 14 2011, 06:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1884892"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i coded in now on request in another thread a console command to disable the hud minimap, even though i think nobody would use that option :) having the option the customize hud elements more would be really nice, but such goodies would come later when we rework the whole menu (since positioning hud elements via console commands is not very user friendly, you could then already simply edit the lua files as well). btw, editing the lua files is no magic. If you want to change the absolute position of an element or the alignment you would very fast find out which files and which values you need to change. if that question arrises more often (after 188 release) i will write a small tutorial in the modding section<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Onos Ate Me's Radiance mod got me thinking about what other game elements could be modified while in-game. Do you think its possible to allow people to edit and save the type and location of HUD elements in-game? For example, I'm thinking of a console command (e.g. hud_edit true) that turns on a mode that allows players to move, add, and subtract pieces of the HUD. If you wanted the minimap it the top right of the map instead of the top left, all you would have to do is turn on the edit command and drag the minimap to the desired location.
The more I think about it, I think a cool distinguishing characteristic of the Spark engine would be if they developed a toolset that allowed developers/mappers/players to modify game elements while the game is running. The process has already started a bit with 1) map annotations, 2) lua file hotswapping, and 3) cool mods like Radiance.
Comments
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I for one like the idea, while jumping into a server and playing was never really an issue for me, the ability to play a bot game for practice doesnt sound to bad, especially if your going to join some big NS1 style map you have never played before.
On maps like summit its hard to get lost but i can remember starting ns1 the first time and having not a single clue whats going on.
As for people yelling at you, so far i haven't experienced that my self, most players currently in ns2 are kind and respectful to each other.
But i guess that also has to do with it being beta, so people know that stuff sometimes doesnt go as planned, even outside the players fault (performance)
Like going down to a skulk bouncing between walls and roofs with sudden lag spikes just to name something.
I also like the bot support for the possibility of a more singleplayer/story mode that someone could make, like an rts or fps style campaign.
Not saying it should, ns2 is a multiplayer game after all, but that doesnt take away from the fact that campaigns can be a very fun and usefull instrument of lerning and lore expansion, as well as giving some options that cant be done in multiplayer, or even multiplayer maps with a different game mode (like maybe survival maps, were you have to survive an AI alien onslaught for as many rounds as possible to just trow something out there).
Should they be able to join Com/Hive?
.. will be nice to have at least idea about complexity of problem :D
PS: It's time to start digging into LUA code ...
Should they be able to join Com/Hive?
.. will be nice to have at least idea about complexity of problem :D
PS: It's time to start digging into LUA code ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Absolutely they should be able to command, if they didn't, you'd just end up with what we have now. On team of basic skulks versus fully upgraded Marines.
I think the only way people would accept bots, is if they were flagged as bots but also have a filter for no bots in multi-player or something.
Games like CSS, the bots in there are good pratice for me and i don't mind them when the server is empty. It is good to be able to pass the time playing against bots whilst waiting for more players to join...
and also in games like Battlefield the bots are very handy, so why not this game?
Bots are still an important part of any game, even if some people out there dislike them,not everyone can afford the top internet connection and most ISPs do not give you, what they say they can..
I'll try to create gorge cyst placement bot :) with these main features:
STATE [waiting for gorge]
- hang around Hive (spawn point) while not enough res to evolve into gorge.
- if spot marine, try to attack (as current bot)
STATE [gorge]
- a) get collection of all resource nozzles without alien harvesters (order them by distance from spawn hive)
- b) follow existing cyst placement in path to nearest uncap Resource nozzle
- c) when no more cyst are found and you are not in resource nozzle .. place some cyst while you not reach the nozzle
- d) remove nozzle from collection and go back to spawn location
- e) repeat from b)
in between:
- if spot marine, try to run to spawn location (follow cysts) and do Heal attack as fast as can :)
- if you are dead, re-spawn and start with a)
It's main purpose of gorge in early state of game. and the cysts are needed almost every time.
I hope it's simple enough to be implemented easily.
... hen the server can create 1-2 gorge bots for aliens to be able to manage cyst placement across map.
Natural Selection isn't that complicated a game, there's no reason to change game mechanics to make learning the game easier, as it's only a very small portion of the total game experience. One should instead develop better documentation and ways to teach new players the mechanics if it's a problem.
We agree, and have plans to do a lot more with proper HUD notifications, and general improvements to make things more immediately understandable and intuitive for new players. Our goal is to make the game a lot easier to jump into then NS1 was, and at least make it so first time players can have fun and some good experiences, even if they are a bit confused about how some things work to start with. Much of that work will come later, as we finish up more of the remaining features.
Having the ability to jump into a game offline and play around and figure out game mechanics, however, is still something that a fair amount of players would use to get more comfortable with the game. Especially on the commanding side. And bots help with that, mainly because we don't have the time and resources to do an extended single player tutorial/campaign.
--Cory
whichbot (aliens) worked nice on marine trainers in ns1 & with a damage balance tweak it wasnt a certain walk over. good for new player comm training.
with ns2 hooks it should be possible to have decent marine bots as well (which was lacking in ns1)
just having a bot code base where you can tweak in some custom auto-behavior will be fun to have - just for the nerd content and opportunity.
When working on projects I always get caught up with the nuts and bolts, and the technical side of the design process.
Women tend to put more of a story element to products/design and that is something I think UWE is missing. Story.
You will not learn how to play NS2 quickly from tool tips and the like at random times during the game.
Jumping in first time to discover that you can 'buy weapons here' does not teach the player anything.
I always give L4D/L4D2 as an example, as Valve do it beautifully.
UWE, you need to find points in the game from start to finish. All the way from starting the game on the desktop through to closing it down.
Work on a basic story that introduces a player .. 'Aliens vs Marines, you need res, hives/tech to upgrade' etc... and find key points where you can tell a story.
For example, the start menu background could be more than just a Marine standing there and a skulk running by.
It could be a couple of marines running to a res point, building an extractor and then moving into the background to assault an alien hive.
All this could be done in a non patronising cinematic way if done properly, with some vocals over the top.
The ready room is another space that you can add elements into.
The ready room is another space that you can add elements into.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, we've been discussing ways of incorporating video tutorials into the readyrooms, and other elements, like the map layout. Gameplay info and tips can be added to the loading screens. There's all sorts of approaches to feed the player more information, it just takes time to put all of that stuff in. But nothing is really off the table at this point.
--Cory
It is these underlying elements in games that really interest me, and can really improve the experience.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would love to see loading screens with game art the hand drawn stuff not the actual 3d model, with tips to help understand what things do.
And tiny bits of the lore please!
It would be nice to see some changes to the menus now, there's a lot of improvements that could be added and already have by the community, it shouldn't take too long to add.
The hud is looking great too. I hope you guys add an option to control the zoom of the minimap.
But i mean the first mockup not the second.
I mean the minimap was on <a href="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ZzXevucGsR4/TPEk_TqT6LI/AAAAAAAAAoc/TEdfh6PKmd4/s1600/amjk1.jpg" target="_blank"> NS1</a> on right too...and it feels ok.
It would be awesome if the HUD itself moves a bit when looking around so you really get the feeling that it's a Visor, maybe even getting smaller and bigger with a minimal percentage, like the Eyes have to refocus.
It would be awesome if the HUD itself moves a bit when looking around so you really get the feeling that it's a Visor, maybe even getting smaller and bigger with a minimal percentage, like the Eyes have to refocus.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or take a look at Crysis 2's hud. It bobs the slightest bit with movement.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIw2h3h-LoA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIw2h3h-LoA</a>
4:30 is a good example
I would love to see loading screens with game art the hand drawn stuff not the actual 3d model, with tips to help understand what things do.
And tiny bits of the lore please!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 yay for ideas
edit: more coherent
i coded in now on request in another thread a console command to disable the hud minimap, even though i think nobody would use that option :)
having the option the customize hud elements more would be really nice, but such goodies would come later when we rework the whole menu (since positioning hud elements via console commands is not very user friendly, you could then already simply edit the lua files as well). btw, editing the lua files is no magic. If you want to change the absolute position of an element or the alignment you would very fast find out which files and which values you need to change. if that question arrises more often (after 188 release) i will write a small tutorial in the modding section
Thanx got fixed :D
Love the random start position, it adds a new layer to the game instead of just rushing in now people need some scouting just like in SC2. hope its one of the stuff that you guys keep into the game.
+1
having the option the customize hud elements more would be really nice, but such goodies would come later when we rework the whole menu (since positioning hud elements via console commands is not very user friendly, you could then already simply edit the lua files as well). btw, editing the lua files is no magic. If you want to change the absolute position of an element or the alignment you would very fast find out which files and which values you need to change. if that question arrises more often (after 188 release) i will write a small tutorial in the modding section<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Onos Ate Me's Radiance mod got me thinking about what other game elements could be modified while in-game. Do you think its possible to allow people to edit and save the type and location of HUD elements in-game? For example, I'm thinking of a console command (e.g. hud_edit true) that turns on a mode that allows players to move, add, and subtract pieces of the HUD. If you wanted the minimap it the top right of the map instead of the top left, all you would have to do is turn on the edit command and drag the minimap to the desired location.
The more I think about it, I think a cool distinguishing characteristic of the Spark engine would be if they developed a toolset that allowed developers/mappers/players to modify game elements while the game is running. The process has already started a bit with 1) map annotations, 2) lua file hotswapping, and 3) cool mods like Radiance.