not true, but it gives more options throughout the map. And if you go around the map welding every door, marines end up hurting themselves since welded doors cannot be opened by the commander once its welded.
The door mechanic in general seems like a bit of a waste of time, to me.
WRT welding, making players attack/+use inanimate objects is pretty boring. I thought that was the reason MACs and Drifters were added?
But in general, locking off areas of the map doesn't seem conducive to having fluid combat. 99% of auto-closing doors were removed from NS1 maps because of their unpredictability. They (depending on complete chance of where the door is in its open/close cycle) either block escaping aliens (frustrating death)or block marines from getting the final few shots on a lifeform (frustrating non-death).
Also, isn't having a small chokepoint that blocks line of sight a <b>disadvantage to marines?</b> Anything for aliens to close the gap on marines without being in the open is a huge alien advantage. Why would a marine team want to run around the map creating these? Maybe I missed something.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1889263:date=Dec 8 2011, 02:21 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Dec 8 2011, 02:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889263"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a great idea if you want to spend half the game staring at a door pressing +attack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Same argument can be made about +use for building structures. If MACs could also weld doors (like they previously did in the alpha), then this wouldn't be as big of a deal.
One solution to locking doors could be a resource/energy cost with expiration, or cost over time for keeping a door locked. Then doors would only be locked rarely, when the comm decides it's important, like when trying to trap retreating aliens or keep the battle to 2 fronts instead of 3. It would be more fluid than currently, like a more elegant version of CC spam...
Honestly there is a much easier way. Remove the locking feature entirely.
Unpowered = door open Powered = door closed (but opens automatically) Welded = must be broken by damage
To solve the "the door opens when i approach it to weld" problem, just have the marines weld the panel beside the door and when welding is complete then the door closes and is welded shut.
Two options for breaking a weld: - Allow all lifeforms to damage the welded door but give it a ton of HP and a special attack for onos that instantly breaks the door open. - Only give the onos and maybe the commander the ability to break welded doors with some kind of special attack or resource cost. (i.e. Onos has a door smash and the commander can place an acid cyst on it for X resources as long as infestation is nearby)
Boom, no more confusing door locks and opening and closing doors all of the time.
The general scenario being proposed makes taking a power node a disincentive for the marine team. If you really want doors in the game at least make taking a power node force the doors to be open the whole time.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited December 2011
Everyone is going to shoot me.
Covered with infestation: The door is open.
Not covered with infestation: The door is locked and only breaks open by infestation or an Onos. Marines use the button to open it temporarily. Welder to repair a broken door.
Now the locked-welded-powered-unpowered confusion is gone, the door suspense is high. And the Onos is going to scare a lot of marines. Smaller lifeforms will need to utilize vents in the early game until they control the map. Causing asymmetric gameplay for both teams.
This would also get rid of the possibility for griefing as someone with a welder wouldn't be able to lock his team out of a place.
<!--quoteo(post=1889263:date=Dec 9 2011, 12:21 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Dec 9 2011, 12:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889263"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a great idea if you want to spend half the game staring at a door pressing +attack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At present it's no difference from turning a corner and seeing hydra spam everywhere. The fact remains you still can't go anywhere.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1889420:date=Dec 9 2011, 06:40 PM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Dec 9 2011, 06:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889420"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Everyone is going to shoot me.
Covered with infestation: The door is open.
Not covered with infestation: The door is locked and only breaks open by infestation or an Onos. Marines use the button to open it temporarily. Welder to repair a broken door.
Now the locked-welded-powered-unpowered confusion is gone, the door suspense is high. And the Onos is going to scare a lot of marines. Smaller lifeforms will need to utilize vents in the early game until they control the map. Causing asymmetric gameplay for both teams.
This would also get rid of the possibility for griefing as someone with a welder wouldn't be able to lock his team out of a place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1
<!--quoteo(post=1889420:date=Dec 9 2011, 12:40 PM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Dec 9 2011, 12:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889420"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Everyone is going to shoot me.
Covered with infestation: The door is open.
Not covered with infestation: The door is locked and only breaks open by infestation or an Onos. Marines use the button to open it temporarily. Welder to repair a broken door.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like this idea, however if aliens have 2 hives it's very easy for them to send infestation to any door very quickly. There would need to be some kind of time-limit on the infestation opening the door. I can see infestation slowly opening up a locked door, with vines pushing it open. Could be awesome. Onos could speed this up by smashing through.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1889648:date=Dec 10 2011, 02:48 PM:name=Obraxis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Obraxis @ Dec 10 2011, 02:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889648"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really like this idea, however if aliens have 2 hives it's very easy for them to send infestation to any door very quickly. There would need to be some kind of time-limit on the infestation opening the door. I can see infestation slowly opening up a locked door, with vines pushing it open. Could be awesome. Onos could speed this up by smashing through.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well that could be fixed with either <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115610&view=findpost&p=1889411" target="_blank">slowing down the cyst placement</a> or the non instantaneous approach like you said. Where the door could get start malfunctioning (erroneous sounds audio feedback.) and have the vines push the doors inside.
<!--quoteo(post=1889383:date=Dec 9 2011, 10:20 AM:name=Cerebral)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cerebral @ Dec 9 2011, 10:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889383"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly there is a much easier way. Remove the locking feature entirely.
Unpowered = door open Powered = door closed (but opens automatically) Welded = must be broken by damage
To solve the "the door opens when i approach it to weld" problem, just have the marines weld the panel beside the door and when welding is complete then the door closes and is welded shut.
Two options for breaking a weld: - Allow all lifeforms to damage the welded door but give it a ton of HP and a special attack for onos that instantly breaks the door open. - Only give the onos and maybe the commander the ability to break welded doors with some kind of special attack or resource cost. (i.e. Onos has a door smash and the commander can place an acid cyst on it for X resources as long as infestation is nearby)
Boom, no more confusing door locks and opening and closing doors all of the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
And I'm pretty sure part of it is due to skulks evolving whenever they get the chance. And their aggressive spawn and find something to bite gameplay.
Marines on the other hand, generally have a longer travel time, they currently can all weld each other, and they can be sent onto build missions. And there is plenty of healing with armories and medpacks falling from the sky.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1889431:date=Dec 9 2011, 09:48 AM:name=BJHBnade_spammer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BJHBnade_spammer @ Dec 9 2011, 09:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889431"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->aliens are seriously nerfed now marines should be winning alot more now that there is not really any upgrades for aliens atleast that work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And yet, aliens still find a way to win 59% of matches (http://unknownworldsstats.appspot.com/displayendgamestats?version=189)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We just found out that the average skulk lifetime in Build 189 is about a minute. And marines are about 2 minutes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I laughed so hard I almost fell out of my chair, No leap, no chance....unless marines only spawned with a knife and maybe a lower powered pistol?...hmmmmm? OR Put mini-leap back in?
Must be frustrating trying to balance this way to complex tech tree.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1889263:date=Dec 8 2011, 10:21 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Dec 8 2011, 10:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1889263"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a great idea if you want to spend half the game staring at a door pressing +attack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We already spend half looking at buildings/power nodes (exaggeration I know!), why not doors too? :-D
I remember epic lans with friends falling asleep on the keyboard, yeah working your way from cavemen to cyborgs on island maps was taking quite some time !
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
About Skulk lifespan:
Skulks wall-jumping is in need of more tweaks. The current wall jump is only effective for detaching from the wall while stationary.
The quickest tweak would to make Skulk a lot "sticker", and only detach from walls (and ceilings) when either the crouch key or the jump key is pressed.
Side strafe-jumping wall jumping (UT style) would also be a very welcomed addition.
The thing is, for spiking you need a line of sight, having a line of sight => marines can shoot you too. Also there is no regeneration upgrade yet, so you wont be camping there for very long.
If we had the old spores this would work(make you visible for a split-second and shoot some gasclouds), but spikes dont have enough dps for this - especially because of the spread at range (so this only really works against buildings if no marine is around, you cant finish off marines by standing still - you will just be killed by a clip from a pistol)
I have definitely seen some good vent lerk harassment in tram. This is mainly due to the height of the vent exits. It makes it easy to get shots off, and hide when marines notice.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1890429:date=Dec 16 2011, 06:07 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Dec 16 2011, 06:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1890429"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Generally isn't having vents in marine start a bad idea due to early game balancing?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have no idea what that tweet is about, but vents in marine start is usually a bad idea for many reasons. If it's possible to hit marine structures from the vent with bile bomb, it makes the map unplayable. Ns_ayumi had this issue for a while in NS1.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have you lerked in games and abused marines from a vent in their base? Or been a marine on the other side of it? I haven't see it yet. #fb<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, some days ago i was as gorge in summit at the uhm, (all the names are so hard to remember if they change like every month ^^) the left area near marine spawn. You know the half cycle way, in that vent i saw a marine, i was like "wth" how did he get in it. But to be real, my mind was like "hey nice, like in ns1", but i miss the duck-jump from Half-life a bit (i still use it if i try to jump as marine on a building/higher platform or something), now the jumping is a bit confusing after all these years with ns1 :P
About the past games you worked on: I really liked Rise and Fall Civilizations at War. I know Cory was the only one (I think) and probably just did some art contract work -- but I really liked that game. It's also free now, by the way, and very fun.
The lerk base camping thing? I tried to do that in NS1 sometimes but found out it was generally a waste of time. It would annoy them and I'd get some people camp at a vent for several minutes, but in general I didn't find it particularly helpful to the team. I didn't find the lerk much useful and I didn't play as it much. I always seemed to do more for the team as a skulk. The lerk is shaping up a little different in NS2 (as well as map construction) and hopefully he'll get used more.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1890431:date=Dec 15 2011, 09:22 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Dec 15 2011, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1890431"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Havent seen it.
The thing is, for spiking you need a line of sight, having a line of sight => marines can shoot you too. Also there is no regeneration upgrade yet, so you wont be camping there for very long.
If we had the old spores this would work(make you visible for a split-second and shoot some gasclouds), but spikes dont have enough dps for this - especially because of the spread at range (so this only really works against buildings if no marine is around, you cant finish off marines by standing still - you will just be killed by a clip from a pistol)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If its possible, someone will find a way to abuse it. Best to nip this problem in the bud.
Comments
WRT welding, making players attack/+use inanimate objects is pretty boring. I thought that was the reason MACs and Drifters were added?
But in general, locking off areas of the map doesn't seem conducive to having fluid combat. 99% of auto-closing doors were removed from NS1 maps because of their unpredictability. They (depending on complete chance of where the door is in its open/close cycle) either block escaping aliens (frustrating death)or block marines from getting the final few shots on a lifeform (frustrating non-death).
Also, isn't having a small chokepoint that blocks line of sight a <b>disadvantage to marines?</b> Anything for aliens to close the gap on marines without being in the open is a huge alien advantage. Why would a marine team want to run around the map creating these? Maybe I missed something.
Same argument can be made about +use for building structures. If MACs could also weld doors (like they previously did in the alpha), then this wouldn't be as big of a deal.
Unpowered = door open
Powered = door closed (but opens automatically)
Welded = must be broken by damage
To solve the "the door opens when i approach it to weld" problem, just have the marines weld the panel beside the door and when welding is complete then the door closes and is welded shut.
Two options for breaking a weld:
- Allow all lifeforms to damage the welded door but give it a ton of HP and a special attack for onos that instantly breaks the door open.
- Only give the onos and maybe the commander the ability to break welded doors with some kind of special attack or resource cost. (i.e. Onos has a door smash and the commander can place an acid cyst on it for X resources as long as infestation is nearby)
Boom, no more confusing door locks and opening and closing doors all of the time.
The general scenario being proposed makes taking a power node a disincentive for the marine team. If you really want doors in the game at least make taking a power node force the doors to be open the whole time.
Covered with infestation: The door is open.
Not covered with infestation: The door is locked and only breaks open by infestation or an Onos. Marines use the button to open it temporarily. Welder to repair a broken door.
Now the locked-welded-powered-unpowered confusion is gone, the door suspense is high. And the Onos is going to scare a lot of marines. Smaller lifeforms will need to utilize vents in the early game until they control the map. Causing asymmetric gameplay for both teams.
This would also get rid of the possibility for griefing as someone with a welder wouldn't be able to lock his team out of a place.
At present it's no difference from turning a corner and seeing hydra spam everywhere. The fact remains you still can't go anywhere.
Covered with infestation: The door is open.
Not covered with infestation: The door is locked and only breaks open by infestation or an Onos. Marines use the button to open it temporarily. Welder to repair a broken door.
Now the locked-welded-powered-unpowered confusion is gone, the door suspense is high. And the Onos is going to scare a lot of marines. Smaller lifeforms will need to utilize vents in the early game until they control the map. Causing asymmetric gameplay for both teams.
This would also get rid of the possibility for griefing as someone with a welder wouldn't be able to lock his team out of a place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
Covered with infestation: The door is open.
Not covered with infestation: The door is locked and only breaks open by infestation or an Onos. Marines use the button to open it temporarily. Welder to repair a broken door.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like this idea, however if aliens have 2 hives it's very easy for them to send infestation to any door very quickly. There would need to be some kind of time-limit on the infestation opening the door. I can see infestation slowly opening up a locked door, with vines pushing it open. Could be awesome. Onos could speed this up by smashing through.
Well that could be fixed with either <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115610&view=findpost&p=1889411" target="_blank">slowing down the cyst placement</a> or the non instantaneous approach like you said. Where the door could get start malfunctioning (erroneous sounds audio feedback.) and have the vines push the doors inside.
Unpowered = door open
Powered = door closed (but opens automatically)
Welded = must be broken by damage
To solve the "the door opens when i approach it to weld" problem, just have the marines weld the panel beside the door and when welding is complete then the door closes and is welded shut.
Two options for breaking a weld:
- Allow all lifeforms to damage the welded door but give it a ton of HP and a special attack for onos that instantly breaks the door open.
- Only give the onos and maybe the commander the ability to break welded doors with some kind of special attack or resource cost. (i.e. Onos has a door smash and the commander can place an acid cyst on it for X resources as long as infestation is nearby)
Boom, no more confusing door locks and opening and closing doors all of the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i like that!
Marines on the other hand, generally have a longer travel time, they currently can all weld each other, and they can be sent onto build missions. And there is plenty of healing with armories and medpacks falling from the sky.
And yet, aliens still find a way to win 59% of matches (http://unknownworldsstats.appspot.com/displayendgamestats?version=189)
I laughed so hard I almost fell out of my chair, No leap, no chance....unless marines only spawned with a knife and maybe a lower powered pistol?...hmmmmm? OR Put mini-leap back in?
Must be frustrating trying to balance this way to complex tech tree.
Perhaps we could get the average amount of kills skulks and marines get during that timeframe, to give it some balance related context.
We already spend half looking at buildings/power nodes (exaggeration I know!), why not doors too? :-D
Natural Construction 2!
Stormtroopers vs cavemen was pretty fun.
Skulks wall-jumping is in need of more tweaks. The current wall jump is only effective for detaching from the wall while stationary.
The quickest tweak would to make Skulk a lot "sticker", and only detach from walls (and ceilings) when either the crouch key or the jump key is pressed.
Side strafe-jumping wall jumping (UT style) would also be a very welcomed addition.
asymmetric gameplay ftw
The thing is, for spiking you need a line of sight, having a line of sight => marines can shoot you too. Also there is no regeneration upgrade yet, so you wont be camping there for very long.
If we had the old spores this would work(make you visible for a split-second and shoot some gasclouds), but spikes dont have enough dps for this - especially because of the spread at range (so this only really works against buildings if no marine is around, you cant finish off marines by standing still - you will just be killed by a clip from a pistol)
I have no idea what that tweet is about, but vents in marine start is usually a bad idea for many reasons. If it's possible to hit marine structures from the vent with bile bomb, it makes the map unplayable. Ns_ayumi had this issue for a while in NS1.
Yes, some days ago i was as gorge in summit at the uhm, (all the names are so hard to remember if they change like every month ^^) the left area near marine spawn.
You know the half cycle way, in that vent i saw a marine, i was like "wth" how did he get in it.
But to be real, my mind was like "hey nice, like in ns1", but i miss the duck-jump from Half-life a bit (i still use it if i try to jump as marine on a building/higher platform or something), now the jumping is a bit confusing after all these years with ns1 :P
The lerk base camping thing? I tried to do that in NS1 sometimes but found out it was generally a waste of time. It would annoy them and I'd get some people camp at a vent for several minutes, but in general I didn't find it particularly helpful to the team. I didn't find the lerk much useful and I didn't play as it much. I always seemed to do more for the team as a skulk. The lerk is shaping up a little different in NS2 (as well as map construction) and hopefully he'll get used more.
The thing is, for spiking you need a line of sight, having a line of sight => marines can shoot you too. Also there is no regeneration upgrade yet, so you wont be camping there for very long.
If we had the old spores this would work(make you visible for a split-second and shoot some gasclouds), but spikes dont have enough dps for this - especially because of the spread at range (so this only really works against buildings if no marine is around, you cant finish off marines by standing still - you will just be killed by a clip from a pistol)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If its possible, someone will find a way to abuse it. Best to nip this problem in the bud.