<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm trying to think of a good "downside" to the regeneration evolution, so it is really used for "hit and run". Uses energy? It's loud? #fb 15 minutes ago<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why does regeneration need to have a downside?
Why would regeneration have to only be viable for hit and run strategies?
Frankly i'd prefer that spending hard earned personal res didn't downgrade myself, even if its in the slightest aspect. The trade-off between different upgrades (Regeneration/Carapace) should be the reason that you choose your upgrades carefully, not the drawbacks of the upgrades themselves.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited January 2012
In NS1, hit and run was better accomplished with carapace and a nearby gorge/DC. It was even more effective with a 2 hive fade with carapace/metabolism combo. The thing about regen is that it is too slow to make any impact on the 'run' part of the equation... the expensive lifeform would simply be dead before it escaped. If there isn't going to be metabolism in the game, then I guess regen will have to serve the role and be balanced accordingly.
As for the downside.. it is absolutely necessary, IMHO, that all health regeneration should have an accompanying sound. In NS1 there are a lot of different mechanism for alien healing. DCs, hives, healing spray, regen, metabolism... all of them have sounds and all of them need sounds to allow marines to assess the combat impact of the healing. The only exception was innate alien health regeneration and this was low enough that it rarely affected combat ( okay.. okay the 1 extra bullet for the skulk is not rare ) and was really only introduced to allow scouting skulks avoid the need to return to the hive to recover the odd bullet or two they took..
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited January 2012
well.. you can only be healed by one dc at a time. although I can't recall for certain when we made that change.. I'm guessing 3.2.. but yeah.. meta was the key to hit and run... I guess you could also argue that oni use charge to run... but I'm not sure that made as large an impact on ns1 gameplay.
Imo carapace is better for single hit and run tactics. You can stay in longer, then retreat to the hive to heal. Giving you a bit more time to do damage.
Regeneration is more for supporting light harrasments. Peeping around corner to parasite, gas/spike flyby, biting a structure and run away as soon as you see a marine. Where you retreat to a place near the frontline where there is no healing available. In the harrasment situation you do more runs in a shorter timespan, but they deal less damage.
i'd really like to be able to use camouflage in combination with regeneration without being spotted (except by scan ofc), that'd provide a massive "whew" moment if you stand still for your ~2 seconds and cloak right before a marine is moving into your line of sight.
The downside that already exits is you commit to the upgrade until the lifeform dies, so in the case of regen you can hit and run until marines upgrade weapons, then you're squishy. A downside usually isn't needed if the difficulty and timing of getting new hives/chambers is balanced right. I would agree that a downside is needed if an upgrade needs to be powerful to make sense (ex focus - high burst dps for slightly lower overall dps). No one likes the feeling of their abilities getting nerfed either.
An upgrade that could make your task harder isn't much of an upgade. Not trying to be pedantic but if the aliens make noise when they regenerate, giving away their positions, then it should be called regeneration <i>ability</i>, not upgrade.
<!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro--> Actually, Regeneration as a purchasable ability could work nice for hit and run if you want that, basically a metabolize any form (though is could be limited if that sounds off) can purchase for pres, with the usual adrenaline for health mechanic of course.
Personally though I'd just have wanted it as a passive you get instead of carapace. In general some upgrades being incompatible with others with some of the old manual lore reasons as backing. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Is the alien upgrade system now set to stone? At least I'd need a solid basic structure on upgrades before proceeding to tweak the finer details. For example the way NS1 worked upgrades like regen ended up being weak if anything due to all the other goodies you missed because of them. There was no need to tone them down apart from the understandable 'feedback' like the heal sound.
For me thinking about these details goes through bigger pictures and I still can't figure out what NS2's picture looks like. Is there some sum up on what we can expect to stay and what kind of bigger outlines are still being worked on and are subject to change?
"I'm trying to think of a good "downside" to the regeneration evolution, so it is really used for "hit and run". Uses energy? It's loud?"
If you pick that evolution, you take *bonus damage* while *actively* regenerating - but regenerate very quickly if you have not been hit in X amount of time. Just an idea.
I've never ever used regeneration. It's never been useful in NS1 as you always regen'd slow anyway. Carapace was much more effective and made more sense for all classes.
Health regeneration rate is proportional to remaining energy.
Something like: Regeneration Rate = Maximum Regeneration Rate * (Energy Remaining / Maximum Energy) ^ 2 <i>(or 3)</i>
so at 0% energy, you have 0% of max regen rate, <i>(0%)</i> at 25% energy, you have 6.25% of max regen rate, <i>(or 1.5625%)</i> at 50% energy, you have 25% of max regen rate, <i>(or 12.5%)</i> at 75% energy, you have 56.25% of max regen rate, <i>(or 42.1875%)</i> at 100% energy, you have 100% of max regen rate <i>(100%)</i>
Of course, this is assuming that Maximum Regeneration Rate is significant, and that energy consumption is quite high.
Rapidly sloughing off damaged tissue, snapping fractures and dislocations back into place, and growing new tissue in place has got to friggin' HURT. Having the lifeform roar in pain would be a good way to have a noise marker indicating regeneration going into effect.
<!--quoteo(post=1892686:date=Jan 5 2012, 02:28 PM:name=Shrike3O)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrike3O @ Jan 5 2012, 02:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Rapidly sloughing off damaged tissue, snapping fractures and dislocations back into place, and growing new tissue in place has got to friggin' HURT. Having the lifeform roar in pain would be a good way to have a noise marker indicating regeneration going into effect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats kool :p. Itd be like "ROAAARR" "oh no! is the onos angry and coming back to eat us or just crying for mummy"
Seems like the most logical way to have the regeneration be a tradeoff is to use the NS1 method, the idea of having several good upgrades but only one active at a time worked pretty well there.
If you have, say, regeneration and carapace be the same upgrade slot, you have to choose between long term survivability but reduced immediate staying power, and better durability in a fight as well as strength against non-heavy weapons, but once you're out of health you stay out for a while.
<!--quoteo(post=1892718:date=Jan 5 2012, 11:43 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 5 2012, 11:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892718"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seems like the most logical way to have the regeneration be a tradeoff is to use the NS1 method, the idea of having several good upgrades but only one active at a time worked pretty well there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think in NS1 the system tends to push especially fades pretty heavily towards certain upgrades. You just needed to punching power of focus, survivability of carapace and speed of celerity whenever they were avaible. That's probably the one bigger complaint I've got with the NS1 old system.
Part of the problem might fix itself with NS2 though. If the lifeforms stay really numerous, you can probably have some spare fades picking stuff like regen for more of a skirmishy harass role too. Then again the lower HP counts, increased guns, more territorial gameplay and all that might also push fades even harder towards the survivability upgrades like cara too.
Regeneration only occurs while stationary, is audible, and healing rate starts low and increases over time for each individual healing session (this is to prevent stop and go healing, and to reward proper usage of finding a tactical spot where you will remain undisturbed). It disables cloak while enabled, and holding the ‘walk’ button suspends all regeneration functionality (i.e. no more audio cues, and cloak may re-enable). To balance the feature I believe there should be an increased damage vulnerability while healing. Why? Well, unless we will restrict evolutionary choices, we have to balance each one out individually, so that having everything on does not make an alien too OP as per game balance.
In addition to the above mechanic, it would be nice if a static variation of the DI graphic were to drop/appear on the ground/surface below the healing alien, this is for two reasons, one for game balance and tactical information for the marines, you can see where an alien has, or possibly still is healing, while also just adding general game polish, and more of that eerie presence space combat just feels like it should have.
Somehow missed this thread when i posted in my own...
In regards to the tweet I just read I thought I would throw in my 2 cents.
When a player evolves regeneration how about this:
Decrease Armor - Increase Health Health regenerates much quicker.
I suppose it should be done so that total HP remains about the same. The overall idea is to make the player slightly more vulnerable in exchange for very fast healing times to keep the pressure on the other team up.
Need a catch phrase?
Regeneration - Your tissue becomes softer, but also more easy to replace.
<!--quoteo(post=1892686:date=Jan 5 2012, 05:28 AM:name=Shrike3O)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrike3O @ Jan 5 2012, 05:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Rapidly sloughing off damaged tissue, snapping fractures and dislocations back into place, and growing new tissue in place has got to friggin' HURT. Having the lifeform roar in pain would be a good way to have a noise marker indicating regeneration going into effect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd like to hear my game not an animal having several fits every other time it gets hit with a bullet.
<!--quoteo(post=1892746:date=Jan 5 2012, 01:35 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Jan 5 2012, 01:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892746"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd like to hear my game not an animal having several fits every other time it gets hit with a bullet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are so many possibilities for regeneration audible cues, the heartbeat sound, alien specific grunting/groans, sounds of pleasure/satisfaction, even heavy breathing would prob work.
EDIT: Just realized you were talking about taking damage, not when an alien is healing.
what if infestation had its own passive upgrades with each hive on the field? for example second hive in ns1 gave aliens bonus armor, and the third hive increased that bonus further. Well what if hives in ns2 not only increased armor for aliens but strengthen the infestation with some sort of passive abilities?
<!--quoteo(post=1892755:date=Jan 5 2012, 03:55 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Jan 5 2012, 03:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892755"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what if infestation had its own passive upgrades with each hive on the field? for example second hive in ns1 gave aliens bonus armor, and the third hive increased that bonus further. Well what if hives in ns2 not only increased armor for aliens but strengthen the infestation with some sort of passive abilities?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually sketched the outlines of such a system a while back. Someone else also recently brought this topic up again.
Comments
Why does regeneration need to have a downside?
Why would regeneration have to only be viable for hit and run strategies?
Frankly i'd prefer that spending hard earned personal res didn't downgrade myself, even if its in the slightest aspect. The trade-off between different upgrades (Regeneration/Carapace) should be the reason that you choose your upgrades carefully, not the drawbacks of the upgrades themselves.
As for the downside.. it is absolutely necessary, IMHO, that all health regeneration should have an accompanying sound. In NS1 there are a lot of different mechanism for alien healing. DCs, hives, healing spray, regen, metabolism... all of them have sounds and all of them need sounds to allow marines to assess the combat impact of the healing. The only exception was innate alien health regeneration and this was low enough that it rarely affected combat ( okay.. okay the 1 extra bullet for the skulk is not rare ) and was really only introduced to allow scouting skulks avoid the need to return to the hive to recover the odd bullet or two they took..
A gorge with a DC or 2 pretty much made you a yo yo to an area.
Regeneration is more for supporting light harrasments. Peeping around corner to parasite, gas/spike flyby, biting a structure and run away as soon as you see a marine. Where you retreat to a place near the frontline where there is no healing available. In the harrasment situation you do more runs in a shorter timespan, but they deal less damage.
Personally though I'd just have wanted it as a passive you get instead of carapace. In general some upgrades being incompatible with others with some of the old manual lore reasons as backing. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
For me thinking about these details goes through bigger pictures and I still can't figure out what NS2's picture looks like. Is there some sum up on what we can expect to stay and what kind of bigger outlines are still being worked on and are subject to change?
If you pick that evolution, you take *bonus damage* while *actively* regenerating - but regenerate very quickly if you have not been hit in X amount of time. Just an idea.
Something like:
Regeneration Rate = Maximum Regeneration Rate * (Energy Remaining / Maximum Energy) ^ 2 <i>(or 3)</i>
so
at 0% energy, you have 0% of max regen rate, <i>(0%)</i>
at 25% energy, you have 6.25% of max regen rate, <i>(or 1.5625%)</i>
at 50% energy, you have 25% of max regen rate, <i>(or 12.5%)</i>
at 75% energy, you have 56.25% of max regen rate, <i>(or 42.1875%)</i>
at 100% energy, you have 100% of max regen rate <i>(100%)</i>
Of course, this is assuming that Maximum Regeneration Rate is significant, and that energy consumption is quite high.
Thats kool :p. Itd be like "ROAAARR" "oh no! is the onos angry and coming back to eat us or just crying for mummy"
If you have, say, regeneration and carapace be the same upgrade slot, you have to choose between long term survivability but reduced immediate staying power, and better durability in a fight as well as strength against non-heavy weapons, but once you're out of health you stay out for a while.
I think in NS1 the system tends to push especially fades pretty heavily towards certain upgrades. You just needed to punching power of focus, survivability of carapace and speed of celerity whenever they were avaible. That's probably the one bigger complaint I've got with the NS1 old system.
Part of the problem might fix itself with NS2 though. If the lifeforms stay really numerous, you can probably have some spare fades picking stuff like regen for more of a skirmishy harass role too. Then again the lower HP counts, increased guns, more territorial gameplay and all that might also push fades even harder towards the survivability upgrades like cara too.
Regeneration only occurs while stationary, is audible, and healing rate starts low and increases over time for each individual healing session (this is to prevent stop and go healing, and to reward proper usage of finding a tactical spot where you will remain undisturbed). It disables cloak while enabled, and holding the ‘walk’ button suspends all regeneration functionality (i.e. no more audio cues, and cloak may re-enable). To balance the feature I believe there should be an increased damage vulnerability while healing. Why? Well, unless we will restrict evolutionary choices, we have to balance each one out individually, so that having everything on does not make an alien too OP as per game balance.
In addition to the above mechanic, it would be nice if a static variation of the DI graphic were to drop/appear on the ground/surface below the healing alien, this is for two reasons, one for game balance and tactical information for the marines, you can see where an alien has, or possibly still is healing, while also just adding general game polish, and more of that eerie presence space combat just feels like it should have.
Thanks for reading!
In regards to the tweet I just read I thought I would throw in my 2 cents.
When a player evolves regeneration how about this:
Decrease Armor - Increase Health
Health regenerates much quicker.
I suppose it should be done so that total HP remains about the same. The overall idea is to make the player slightly more vulnerable in exchange for very fast healing times to keep the pressure on the other team up.
Need a catch phrase?
Regeneration - Your tissue becomes softer, but also more easy to replace.
I'd like to hear my game not an animal having several fits every other time it gets hit with a bullet.
There are so many possibilities for regeneration audible cues, the heartbeat sound, alien specific grunting/groans, sounds of pleasure/satisfaction, even heavy breathing would prob work.
EDIT: Just realized you were talking about taking damage, not when an alien is healing.
I actually sketched the outlines of such a system a while back. Someone else also recently brought this topic up again.