I am so happy to see a big thread about balance and balance only that I could cry. My 2.5 cents:
We musn't rush into demanding nerfs for any particular unit or ability. The game is evolving so fast that a simple quick fix like 'drop fade armour' could have unforseen consequences.
Fades are scary again now, and thats a good thing. A flamethrower and a shotgun can kill a fade. The easiest way to kill fades is to stop the second hive. Most of the bullets rifle wielding marines fire at fades end up in their teammates backs or the walls, or disappear into the maw of a low server tick rate.
My gut feeling is that a slight fade armour reduction, slight shotgun cost decrease, and improved server tick rate will balance out the fade.
And bloody hell, ain't 178 the mutt's nuts? I can't get enough of it! Bring on the weekend play!
<!--quoteo(post=1850913:date=Jun 8 2011, 02:44 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jun 8 2011, 02:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1850913"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, I too think that improved performance will help the marines significantly more than the aliens. I also feel like Skulk leap is a problem although I'm not sure what to do about it yet. It might become an upgrade, or it might come with two hives, but giving it to all skulks all the time is quite a problem for marines.
The biggest problem I want to address right now is stalemates (with marines holed up on their base). I might put in Gorge bile bomb again but there are other ways to solve it too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Marines can't hole up in their bases when <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113568&view=findpost&p=1848833" target="_blank">Power Nodes are placed in more remote locations</a>!
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1851172:date=Jun 9 2011, 08:58 AM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Jun 9 2011, 08:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851172"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines can't hole up in their bases when <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113568&view=findpost&p=1848833" target="_blank">Power Nodes are placed in more remote locations</a>!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
2 words: power packs
Now that TRes is more plentiful, its much easier to spam sentries and power packs in marine start so that even if the power node is killed, you can still keep going.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1851182:date=Jun 9 2011, 09:36 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jun 9 2011, 09:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851182"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2 words: power packs
Now that TRes is more plentiful, its much easier to spam sentries and power packs in marine start so that even if the power node is killed, you can still keep going.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is pretty much how EVERY game on summit ends up: 20 sentries and power packs in marine start. The game only ends when the marines get bored and quit.
<!--quoteo(post=1851186:date=Jun 9 2011, 05:46 PM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ Jun 9 2011, 05:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851186"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which is pretty much how EVERY game on summit ends up: 20 sentries and power packs in marine start. The game only ends when the marines get bored and quit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've played about 5 or 6 games on summit with the new patch and never seen that happen.
The last game I played aliens took out the marine start powernode then took out all the other stuff and marines moved to the heliport and defended there for a long while.
Twice I've seen aliens build up along the curving route towards marine start and slowly take out the structures.
Don't remember playing a game in the new patch where marines won.
I find it incredibly difficult to judge balance of anything due to the severe lag. The game appears to be running somewhat smooth, at least enough such that I feel I should be able to hit/kill something. However when unloading clips at a single skulk when I know I should be hitting it, but I clearly am not.
<!--quoteo(post=1851193:date=Jun 9 2011, 01:00 PM:name=[R8]DJBourgeoisie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ([R8]DJBourgeoisie @ Jun 9 2011, 01:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851193"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I find it incredibly difficult to judge balance of anything due to the severe lag. The game appears to be running somewhat smooth, at least enough such that I feel I should be able to hit/kill something. However when unloading clips at a single skulk when I know I should be hitting it, but I clearly am not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i've come across this problem on some servers as well. especially when the skulk seemingly "sinks" into the ground like a shark. it happens when the skulk is moving around geometry that would have it make use of wall climbing, or when it runs over floors that have grates on them. impossible to kill, really.
The exact numbers are up for debate, but it's fairly obvious the <b>overall balance</b> of the game <b>is the same</b> with <b>heavy bias for Alien</b> wins <b>particularly on summit</b>.
The <b>average duration</b> of games is <b>5 minutes shorter</b>.
The most balanced game in the 17x builds was 174 with a marine to alien win/loss ratio of 4:6 (actual numbers debatable).
All of this is according to the stats on the page I linked.
---------------------
I would like to add that in build 178 my average fps dropped dramatically from <b>30-45</b> range down to <b>10-20</b> range with <b>bloom OFF.</b>
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
I have yet to see a marine victory in 178. I've been in games where the marines came close to winning, but it seems if the marines can't win in the first 15 minutes, they will never win.
<!--quoteo(post=1851206:date=Jun 9 2011, 06:21 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Jun 9 2011, 06:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851206"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is that just for one server or all of them (sorry I tried to check myself but the page doesn't load)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If that's to me, it's for all servers. It's a global statistic.
Fades are too strong right now. Don't try to deny it, you only look silly. HOWEVER: The game is still in the process of adding several new features that will change the balance back and forth (Exoskeletons, Minigun, Rail guns, etc). Marines are still in the process of learning the newly implemented features. I've yet to be in a game where the ARC was implemented skillfully.
Conclusion: Balancing it out now will probably mean you'll have to rebalance again in the future. I'm all for it, but if it'll take away from faster development of the game, than meh I can wait.
On a side note: Hydras seem overly cheap, while being frustratingly hard to kill. Best success I've had is with grenade launchers, and ARCs. I think that the res cost of these should be increased in order to keep game play away from Hydra farms all over the place.
Edit: As far as performance in B178, my FPS has increased, as well as my hit reg for weapons.
The exact numbers are up for debate, but it's fairly obvious the <b>overall balance</b> of the game <b>is the same</b> with <b>heavy bias for Alien</b> wins <b>particularly on summit</b>.
The <b>average duration</b> of games is <b>5 minutes shorter</b>.
The most balanced game in the 17x builds was 174 with a marine to alien win/loss ratio of 4:6 (actual numbers debatable).
All of this is according to the stats on the page I linked.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Looking through that stats page, it seems to confirm that NS2 has never actually been close to balanced, has pretty much always favored the aliens, and its only gotten worse with B177/B178.
Edit: ns2_summit looks particularly bad, but I'm not sure thats because of map design or because it came out with a patch that heavily favors aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=1851265:date=Jun 9 2011, 04:39 PM:name=kingmob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kingmob @ Jun 9 2011, 04:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Part of the problem could be everyone is playing summit. and summit I love as an alien. there are so many hidey holes and spots you can cling to.
could the balance irregularity be specific to the map?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Aliens seemed to have the advantage in Rockdown as well.
But I think it's always been this way in pubs though; Alien ground units have one objective (destroy everything) that they can work towards singularly or collectively, while Marines are by design forced to work collectively, under the command of one Commander whom often decides the fate of the game. If you're just filling a server and telling people to run at each other, my money's on Kharaa.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
I think it has a lot to do with the commander right now. Most commanders I've played with don't say anything on the mic and just let the marines do whatever. You can't win like that (it certainly didn't work in NS1). Are there true balance problems? Yes, but I think the majority of the issue is commander experience right now. Also, marines don't have their really heavy weapons yet that should more easily deal with fades and onos.
<!--quoteo(post=1851219:date=Jun 9 2011, 01:13 PM:name=m3lior)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (m3lior @ Jun 9 2011, 01:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851219"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok, here are the facts:
Fades are too strong right now. Don't try to deny it, you only look silly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> opinion
<!--quoteo(post=1851126:date=Jun 9 2011, 08:40 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jun 9 2011, 08:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851126"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no my solution is teamwork and actually hitting your targets instead of knee-jerk reactions to a new gameplay mechanic. that video proved once and for all that one fade CANNOT kill an entire marine squad by himself no matter how many times you people stubbornly say it. no where in that video do you see a fade go in, attack by himself, and kill every last marine. what you did see however is a coordinated attack that put down 3 fades in the span of a 2-3 minutes. so whats your solution for the "overpowered fade". since hit and running makes it unbalanced. take away blink? because thats where youre really going.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol. 17% win rate for marines is my proof, as shown previously. It's far better proof than your cherry-picked videos.
I take offense at you putting words in my mouth.
I never said a Fade could kill every last marine in some glorious attack. Go check. I said they cause attrition via hit n runs. I said they blunt assaults and give map control. I certainly don't want to remove blink. In fact, no one wants to remove blink. There are plenty of other possibilities, including marine buffs. Spare me the drama, be civil.
---
Let me try to make my concern more clear:
It's about <b>MAP CONTROL</b>.
Sure, 5 marines, with great coordination and advanced weapons can drive off or kill a SINGLE Fade. I never argued otherwise. But so what? The teams are even. The other 4 aliens are SOMEWHERE, either gaining map control or killing something. Even worse, some of them will also be Fades. Fades are murder because they force marines to travel in huge packs, and thus marines totally lose map control.
This is the central point: aliens dominate the map. All their tools (hivesight, hydras, spores, blink) let them take and hold terrain. Everyone has seen marines end up pinned in a single base, over and over. Marines win early or not at all.
---
I'm not concerned with theorycrafting (exos, jetpacks,etc) the future. My thread was titled very precisely. 178 balance. Here, now.
Saying "the commander needs to play better" is NOT an answer. That's just placing blame. Play better HOW? Do what exactly? Use phase gates? In what way? Are ARCs the answer? How? Send squads? Where? Doing what? And how do you defend the rest of the map?
Can someone suggest strategies and tactics that work, that can compete against a decent alien team? Or at least a strat that doesn't devolve into a 90 minute sentry fest with the server ticking at 8?
<!--quoteo(post=1851328:date=Jun 9 2011, 05:57 PM:name=Squidget)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squidget @ Jun 9 2011, 05:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851328"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lol. 17% win rate for marines is my proof, as shown previously. It's far better proof than your cherry-picked videos.
I take offense at you putting words in my mouth.
I never said a Fade could kill every last marine in some glorious attack. Go check. I said they cause attrition via hit n runs. I said they blunt assaults and give map control. I certainly don't want to remove blink. In fact, no one wants to remove blink. There are plenty of other possibilities, including marine buffs. Spare me the drama, be civil.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> LOL so a TWO PERCENT change from the last beta = fade overpowered? so youre just going ignore the fact that its a new map, new upgrades, and marines dont have their extra tech yet right? and my video wasnt "cherry-picked" it was my very first attempt on the first server I joined. so you want to change the fact that fades are supposed to hit and run, where exactly are you going with this. as for drama, you obviously dont get the FACT that the marines <b>DONT HAVE ALL OF THEIR UPGRADES YET. </b>
It's about <b>MAP CONTROL</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes, its the marines job to deny the fade free reign over the map. your own numbers prove that marines can win games. whats the alternative, take away blink? if marines are pushing in groups with a decent commander, they dont get obliterated. the problem is, ns2 isnt a perfect scenario so squads dont group up together all the time, and commanders arent perfect either. thats why its called a game *protip* theres NEVER going to be a balance because one side with ALWAYS be better than the other, no matter what gun, class, etc people want to nerf because they dont have the skill to counter it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure, 5 marines, with great coordination and advanced weapons can drive off or kill a SINGLE Fade. I never argued otherwise. But so what? The teams are even. The other 4 aliens are SOMEWHERE, either gaining map control or killing something. Even worse, some of them will also be Fades. Fades are murder because they force marines to travel in huge packs, and thus marines totally lose map control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> thats the whole point about squads. thats why marines have pgs, turrets and all the advanced tech they will eventually have. youre complaining about the other 4 aliens, guess what, you can do NOTHING about that. they will ALWAYS be there, doing SOMETHING. you cant NERF this. aliens are melee based, and dont rely so heavily on teamwork, that has been a staple since ns1. marines are the underdogs, always have been. 1 on 1, aliens should kill marines. this is not overpowered, this is the way ITS SUPPOSED TO BE. and it doesnt take 5 marines, 2-3 marines can drive off a fade. wow, imagine if they skipped any fade changes and threw in onos.. wow i think the forums would explode.. omgz teh onoz is teh ovarpoward... -_-
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is the central point: aliens dominate the map. All their tools (hivesight, hydras, spores, blink) let them take and hold terrain. Everyone has seen marines end up pinned in a single base, over and over. Marines win early or not at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
whats your point. aliens fly, blink, leap, etc etc etc.. they are faster than marines, dont rely on teamwork to cover areas as much and are better in fights depending on class and player.
why not just take out every alien class except skulk.. jesus.
I'm not concerned with theorycrafting (exos, jetpacks,etc) the future. My thread was titled very precisely. 178 balance. Here, now.
Saying "the commander needs to play better" is NOT an answer. That's just placing blame. Play better HOW? Do what exactly? Use phase gates? In what way? Are ARCs the answer? How? Send squads? Where? Doing what? And how do you defend the rest of the map?
Can someone suggest strategies and tactics that work, that can compete against a decent alien team? Or at least a strat that doesn't devolve into a 90 minute sentry fest with the server ticking at 8?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
saying coms play better isnt an answer? really? so marines arent dependent on the com knowing for example, how to upgrade armor (yes this has been an issue for teams ive been on). or how to properly launch phasegates, or where hives are in relation to a squad.
"How? Send squads? Where? Doing what? And how do you defend the rest of the map?"
.... this is called.. wait for it.. the COMMANDER ROLE.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1851344:date=Jun 9 2011, 04:47 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jun 9 2011, 04:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851344"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->saying coms play better isnt an answer? really? so marines arent dependent on the com knowing for example, how to upgrade armor (yes this has been an issue for teams ive been on). or how to properly launch phasegates, or where hives are in relation to a squad.
"How? Send squads? Where? Doing what? And how do you defend the rest of the map?"
.... this is called.. wait for it.. the COMMANDER ROLE.
hop in the chair and figure it out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My biggest issue so far is finding any commander strategy that works. As far as I can tell, marine victories in B178 are about dragging the game out long enough until enough alien players quit so that you have a numerical advantage.
There was one guy playing today that said marine strategy was easy: deny aliens a 2nd hive so they can't get fades. Of course, he was playing on the alien side when he dropped that bit of wisdom.
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
I don't understand all the fuss about fades. All you need to do is get a buddy in your team to go hunt their nodes early in the game, which will push the arrival of fades back significantly. Or on your way to their RTs, catch the drifter that is being sent to construct the second hive for a double whammy. I killed alien start RT in Summit 3 times in a row with another buddy marine in a 5v5. We managed to kill the drifter that was heading to the second hive at the beginning, and forced the alien comm to keep replacing those RTs instead of getting a second hive up, and hence fades. Not to mention the slow res income for the 1 fade that eventually came 10-15 minutes in the game.
Unfortunately the team couldn't pull together a shotgun rush while they were weak and we ended up losing to a dragged out 45 minute slog. Most of the games I've played marines forget about pushing alien RTs and usually run off alone. By the time those delayed fades are getting up, marines should be getting enough upgrades to handle them.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you obviously dont get the FACT that the marines DONT HAVE ALL OF THEIR UPGRADES YET.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless those missing upgrades show up in the early game, they won't make a lick of difference. It's the early game where Fades are shutting down marine map control and giving the alien team a massive lead that they then use to beat the marine team into submission. Adding in Exosuits and Jetpacks won't change that one bit.
<!--quoteo(post=1851422:date=Jun 10 2011, 05:50 AM:name=aeroripper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aeroripper @ Jun 10 2011, 05:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851422"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't understand all the fuss about fades. All you need to do is get a buddy in your team to go hunt their nodes early in the game, which will push the arrival of fades back significantly. Or on your way to their RTs, catch the drifter that is being sent to construct the second hive for a double whammy. I killed alien start RT in Summit 3 times in a row with another buddy marine in a 5v5. We managed to kill the drifter that was heading to the second hive at the beginning, and forced the alien comm to keep replacing those RTs instead of getting a second hive up, and hence fades. Not to mention the slow res income for the 1 fade that eventually came 10-15 minutes in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This. Give it a couple of weeks at least and see what kind of gameplay gives you the best marine results. Looks like aeroripper already gave everyone a good starting point.
I'm a bit puzzled by the longer run lifeform balance and such stuff, but I've got absolutely no reason to complain or to be unhappy if the game seems uneven 2-3 days after a huge patch. In a way I'd be pretty disappointed if the game didn't do this kind of swinging motion at this point of development.
I had a great game yesterday, I played as Alien and we lost. The Marines were really working together and bit by bit they took over the map. After we lost I figured I'll go to the marine side and experience that team-play myself, and wow, what a difference from playing when no one does anything togehter and just runs off. If you (the com/team) actually have a strategy, and if all the marines follow it and work together, victory is not hard at all to achieve! Was a great experience for me, makes me remember those epic games in NS1:)
<!--quoteo(post=1851422:date=Jun 10 2011, 07:50 AM:name=aeroripper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aeroripper @ Jun 10 2011, 07:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851422"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't understand all the fuss about fades. All you need to do is get a buddy in your team to go hunt their nodes early in the game, which will push the arrival of fades back significantly. Or on your way to their RTs, catch the drifter that is being sent to construct the second hive for a double whammy. I killed alien start RT in Summit 3 times in a row with another buddy marine in a 5v5. We managed to kill the drifter that was heading to the second hive at the beginning, and forced the alien comm to keep replacing those RTs instead of getting a second hive up, and hence fades. Not to mention the slow res income for the 1 fade that eventually came 10-15 minutes in the game.
Unfortunately the team couldn't pull together a shotgun rush while they were weak and we ended up losing to a dragged out 45 minute slog. Most of the games I've played marines forget about pushing alien RTs and usually run off alone. By the time those delayed fades are getting up, marines should be getting enough upgrades to handle them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am not sure your are referring to the game we played together, but BY GOD you were annoying, killing all my drifters. Your strategy almost paid off. A few remarks though : 1- I am a beginner at commanding and did not react well to your strategy :-D 2- I should have sent my drifter through west to get central or even west instead of being stubborn and trying to go straight to central. 3- Gully path is hard to hold, I am not sure it was the best place to relocate, West in the next game was easier to hold I think. However it enabled you to push harder on our main hive. 4- I used to agree that fade are OP but seeing the games that we played yesterday I am not so sure anymore... They are still hard to kill even in squads of 3. 5- Regarding the flamethrower argument, I don't agree totally, marines usually take way more time to get FT than aliens fade. 6- Ultimately we aliens, won the game you are referring to (Now I hope that I am not mistaken, but I think I recognize your name), and you are a way better commander that I am.
As a Marine commander I find myself with an ultimatum most of the time, should I move the entire squad to hold a position or should I send some of them to hold a position and keep some of them behind to defend the base. It's too dangerous to leave one position undefended, but it's pointless to only send a squad at anything less than full strength. So usually it doesn't matter either way because I will lose <i>at least</i> one position due to either flimsy footsoldiers or just because the position is undefended.
It seems undeniable in my eyes, there are major imbalances in the early game that make it near impossible for Marines to get a good foothold - exacerbated by the ineptitude of Marine commanders. But good commanding alone cannot ensure victory, the footsoldiers are simply too flimsy to get a job done.
I'm not saying the balance is all out of whack in the "bigger picture", but something is definitely wrong within the current spectrum of the game - even in beta the balance should not be so heavily biased towards aliens that they have a 4:1 advantage over marines. Making it easier to get phase-gates up will allow Marines to cover more ground on the map, avoiding turtling in Marine Start - a major cause of stalemates.
<!--quoteo(post=1851344:date=Jun 9 2011, 07:47 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jun 9 2011, 07:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851344"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->LOL so a TWO PERCENT change from the last beta = fade overpowered? so youre just going ignore the fact that its a new map, new upgrades, and marines dont have their extra tech yet right? and my video wasnt "cherry-picked" it was my very first attempt on the first server I joined. so you want to change the fact that fades are supposed to hit and run, where exactly are you going with this. as for drama, you obviously dont get the FACT that the marines <b>DONT HAVE ALL OF THEIR UPGRADES YET. </b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wish you'd read what I actually say, instead of what you want to see. Let's try this again.
Hi, I'm Squidget, experienced NS2 player, including commanding. I play both sides.
I'm unhappy with 178. If feel it's unbalanced, so much so that the game isn't fun for me. Moreover, the game tends to devolve into sentry fests, no matter who wins. I know that other patches will add more stuff. But that doesn't help me in the short term, because the game isn't fun. I want the game to be at least reasonably fun over the next few weeks and months. So I figured I'd make a post asking for suggestions, maybe I missed something. I wasn't whining, I was looking for solutions. I did not suggest Fades get nerfed or buffed, or change roles. I didn't suggest ANYTHING. I asked for help.
So why do you accuse me of saying things I never even said? You even implied I should be banned.
Why you hatin'?
<!--quoteo(post=1851344:date=Jun 9 2011, 07:47 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jun 9 2011, 07:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851344"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->thats the whole point about squads. thats why marines have pgs, turrets and all the advanced tech they will eventually have. youre complaining about the other 4 aliens, guess what, you can do NOTHING about that. they will ALWAYS be there, doing SOMETHING. you cant NERF this. aliens are melee based, and dont rely so heavily on teamwork, that has been a staple since ns1. marines are the underdogs, always have been. 1 on 1, aliens should kill marines. this is not overpowered, this is the way ITS SUPPOSED TO BE.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That can't be right. If marines can't win fights on equal numbers, and the teams are forced to have equal number of players... then the only way marines win fights is if aliens never coordinate to make the fights equal. NS1 isnt NS2: aliens have a comm now. Aliens can now coordinate just as well as marines can, aliens can use just as much teamwork as marines can. If what you say is true, the balance is screwed, because marines don't have a teamwork advantage anymore.
<!--quoteo(post=1851344:date=Jun 9 2011, 07:47 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jun 9 2011, 07:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851344"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->saying coms play better isnt an answer? really?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nope. It's <b>blame</b>. An answer gives guidance for improvement, blame does not. Teaching 101.
<!--quoteo(post=1851344:date=Jun 9 2011, 07:47 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jun 9 2011, 07:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851344"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so marines arent dependent on the com knowing for example, how to upgrade armor (yes this has been an issue for teams ive been on). or how to properly launch phasegates, or where hives are in relation to a squad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Let's assume the comm isn't a total noob and can find the armor button, because you are obviously hosed in that case. No argument. But that alone can't explain that 83% loss rate.
I have no idea what "launch phasegates" means, or what it means to know where a hive is "in relation to a squad." Please explain.
<!--quoteo(post=1851458:date=Jun 10 2011, 07:44 AM:name=Zuriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zuriki @ Jun 10 2011, 07:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851458"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As a Marine commander I find myself with an ultimatum most of the time, should I move the entire squad to hold a position or should I send some of them to hold a position and keep some of them behind to defend the base. It's too dangerous to leave one position undefended, but it's pointless to only send a squad at anything less than full strength. So usually it doesn't matter either way because I will lose <i>at least</i> one position due to either flimsy footsoldiers or just because the position is undefended.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. It's about map control. Aliens can coordinate now, and hit you where you are weak. You can't match them one on one without sentries.
It's terrifying that this can get worse, as alien comms are going to get better, too. After all, they have even less experience than marine comms.
<!--quoteo(post=1851445:date=Jun 10 2011, 04:15 AM:name=Smasher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Smasher @ Jun 10 2011, 04:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851445"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I had a great game yesterday, I played as Alien and we lost. The Marines were really working together and bit by bit they took over the map. After we lost I figured I'll go to the marine side and experience that team-play myself, and wow, what a difference from playing when no one does anything togehter and just runs off. If you (the com/team) actually have a strategy, and if all the marines follow it and work together, victory is not hard at all to achieve! Was a great experience for me, makes me remember those epic games in NS1:)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You forgot to say HOW. What strategy did you have?
Comments
We musn't rush into demanding nerfs for any particular unit or ability. The game is evolving so fast that a simple quick fix like 'drop fade armour' could have unforseen consequences.
Fades are scary again now, and thats a good thing. A flamethrower and a shotgun can kill a fade. The easiest way to kill fades is to stop the second hive. Most of the bullets rifle wielding marines fire at fades end up in their teammates backs or the walls, or disappear into the maw of a low server tick rate.
My gut feeling is that a slight fade armour reduction, slight shotgun cost decrease, and improved server tick rate will balance out the fade.
And bloody hell, ain't 178 the mutt's nuts? I can't get enough of it! Bring on the weekend play!
The biggest problem I want to address right now is stalemates (with marines holed up on their base). I might put in Gorge bile bomb again but there are other ways to solve it too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines can't hole up in their bases when <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=113568&view=findpost&p=1848833" target="_blank">Power Nodes are placed in more remote locations</a>!
2 words: power packs
Now that TRes is more plentiful, its much easier to spam sentries and power packs in marine start so that even if the power node is killed, you can still keep going.
Now that TRes is more plentiful, its much easier to spam sentries and power packs in marine start so that even if the power node is killed, you can still keep going.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is pretty much how EVERY game on summit ends up: 20 sentries and power packs in marine start. The game only ends when the marines get bored and quit.
I've played about 5 or 6 games on summit with the new patch and never seen that happen.
The last game I played aliens took out the marine start powernode then took out all the other stuff and marines moved to the heliport and defended there for a long while.
Twice I've seen aliens build up along the curving route towards marine start and slowly take out the structures.
Don't remember playing a game in the new patch where marines won.
So we all have quite different experiences!
I find it incredibly difficult to judge balance of anything due to the severe lag. The game appears to be running somewhat smooth, at least enough such that I feel I should be able to hit/kill something. However when unloading clips at a single skulk when I know I should be hitting it, but I clearly am not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i've come across this problem on some servers as well. especially when the skulk seemingly "sinks" into the ground like a shark. it happens when the skulk is moving around geometry that would have it make use of wall climbing, or when it runs over floors that have grates on them. impossible to kill, really.
Stats for 177, 178, ns2_summit:
177
Marine wins: 19% approx.
Alien wins: 81% approx.
178
Marine wins: 17% approx.
Alien wins: 83% approx.
The exact numbers are up for debate, but it's fairly obvious the <b>overall balance</b> of the game <b>is the same</b> with <b>heavy bias for Alien</b> wins <b>particularly on summit</b>.
The <b>average duration</b> of games is <b>5 minutes shorter</b>.
The most balanced game in the 17x builds was 174 with a marine to alien win/loss ratio of 4:6 (actual numbers debatable).
All of this is according to the stats on the page I linked.
---------------------
I would like to add that in build 178 my average fps dropped dramatically from <b>30-45</b> range down to <b>10-20</b> range with <b>bloom OFF.</b>
If that's to me, it's for all servers. It's a global statistic.
Fades are too strong right now. Don't try to deny it, you only look silly.
HOWEVER:
The game is still in the process of adding several new features that will change the balance back and forth (Exoskeletons, Minigun, Rail guns, etc).
Marines are still in the process of learning the newly implemented features. I've yet to be in a game where the ARC was implemented skillfully.
Conclusion: Balancing it out now will probably mean you'll have to rebalance again in the future. I'm all for it, but if it'll take away from faster development of the game, than meh I can wait.
On a side note: Hydras seem overly cheap, while being frustratingly hard to kill. Best success I've had is with grenade launchers, and ARCs. I think that the res cost of these should be increased in order to keep game play away from Hydra farms all over the place.
Edit: As far as performance in B178, my FPS has increased, as well as my hit reg for weapons.
Stats for 177, 178, ns2_summit:
177
Marine wins: 19% approx.
Alien wins: 81% approx.
178
Marine wins: 17% approx.
Alien wins: 83% approx.
The exact numbers are up for debate, but it's fairly obvious the <b>overall balance</b> of the game <b>is the same</b> with <b>heavy bias for Alien</b> wins <b>particularly on summit</b>.
The <b>average duration</b> of games is <b>5 minutes shorter</b>.
The most balanced game in the 17x builds was 174 with a marine to alien win/loss ratio of 4:6 (actual numbers debatable).
All of this is according to the stats on the page I linked.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Looking through that stats page, it seems to confirm that NS2 has never actually been close to balanced, has pretty much always favored the aliens, and its only gotten worse with B177/B178.
Edit: ns2_summit looks particularly bad, but I'm not sure thats because of map design or because it came out with a patch that heavily favors aliens.
and summit I love as an alien.
there are so many hidey holes and spots you can cling to.
could the balance irregularity be specific to the map?
and summit I love as an alien.
there are so many hidey holes and spots you can cling to.
could the balance irregularity be specific to the map?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens seemed to have the advantage in Rockdown as well.
But I think it's always been this way in pubs though; Alien ground units have one objective (destroy everything) that they can work towards singularly or collectively, while Marines are by design forced to work collectively, under the command of one Commander whom often decides the fate of the game. If you're just filling a server and telling people to run at each other, my money's on Kharaa.
Fades are too strong right now. Don't try to deny it, you only look silly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
opinion
Lol. 17% win rate for marines is my proof, as shown previously. It's far better proof than your cherry-picked videos.
I take offense at you putting words in my mouth.
I never said a Fade could kill every last marine in some glorious attack. Go check. I said they cause attrition via hit n runs. I said they blunt assaults and give map control. I certainly don't want to remove blink. In fact, no one wants to remove blink. There are plenty of other possibilities, including marine buffs. Spare me the drama, be civil.
---
Let me try to make my concern more clear:
It's about <b>MAP CONTROL</b>.
Sure, 5 marines, with great coordination and advanced weapons can drive off or kill a SINGLE Fade. I never argued otherwise. But so what? The teams are even. The other 4 aliens are SOMEWHERE, either gaining map control or killing something. Even worse, some of them will also be Fades. Fades are murder because they force marines to travel in huge packs, and thus marines totally lose map control.
This is the central point: aliens dominate the map. All their tools (hivesight, hydras, spores, blink) let them take and hold terrain. Everyone has seen marines end up pinned in a single base, over and over. Marines win early or not at all.
---
I'm not concerned with theorycrafting (exos, jetpacks,etc) the future. My thread was titled very precisely. 178 balance. Here, now.
Saying "the commander needs to play better" is NOT an answer. That's just placing blame. Play better HOW? Do what exactly? Use phase gates? In what way? Are ARCs the answer? How? Send squads? Where? Doing what? And how do you defend the rest of the map?
Can someone suggest strategies and tactics that work, that can compete against a decent alien team? Or at least a strat that doesn't devolve into a 90 minute sentry fest with the server ticking at 8?
I take offense at you putting words in my mouth.
I never said a Fade could kill every last marine in some glorious attack. Go check. I said they cause attrition via hit n runs. I said they blunt assaults and give map control. I certainly don't want to remove blink. In fact, no one wants to remove blink. There are plenty of other possibilities, including marine buffs. Spare me the drama, be civil.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL so a TWO PERCENT change from the last beta = fade overpowered? so youre just going ignore the fact that its a new map, new upgrades, and marines dont have their extra tech yet right? and my video wasnt "cherry-picked" it was my very first attempt on the first server I joined. so you want to change the fact that fades are supposed to hit and run, where exactly are you going with this. as for drama, you obviously dont get the FACT that the marines <b>DONT HAVE ALL OF THEIR UPGRADES YET. </b>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->---
Let me try to make my concern more clear:
It's about <b>MAP CONTROL</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes, its the marines job to deny the fade free reign over the map. your own numbers prove that marines can win games. whats the alternative, take away blink? if marines are pushing in groups with a decent commander, they dont get obliterated. the problem is, ns2 isnt a perfect scenario so squads dont group up together all the time, and commanders arent perfect either. thats why its called a game *protip*
theres NEVER going to be a balance because one side with ALWAYS be better than the other, no matter what gun, class, etc people want to nerf because they dont have the skill to counter it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure, 5 marines, with great coordination and advanced weapons can drive off or kill a SINGLE Fade. I never argued otherwise. But so what? The teams are even. The other 4 aliens are SOMEWHERE, either gaining map control or killing something. Even worse, some of them will also be Fades. Fades are murder because they force marines to travel in huge packs, and thus marines totally lose map control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats the whole point about squads. thats why marines have pgs, turrets and all the advanced tech they will eventually have. youre complaining about the other 4 aliens, guess what, you can do NOTHING about that. they will ALWAYS be there, doing SOMETHING. you cant NERF this. aliens are melee based, and dont rely so heavily on teamwork, that has been a staple since ns1. marines are the underdogs, always have been. 1 on 1, aliens should kill marines. this is not overpowered, this is the way ITS SUPPOSED TO BE. and it doesnt take 5 marines, 2-3 marines can drive off a fade. wow, imagine if they skipped any fade changes and threw in onos.. wow i think the forums would explode.. omgz teh onoz is teh ovarpoward... -_-
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is the central point: aliens dominate the map. All their tools (hivesight, hydras, spores, blink) let them take and hold terrain. Everyone has seen marines end up pinned in a single base, over and over. Marines win early or not at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
whats your point. aliens fly, blink, leap, etc etc etc.. they are faster than marines, dont rely on teamwork to cover areas as much and are better in fights depending on class and player.
why not just take out every alien class except skulk.. jesus.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->---
I'm not concerned with theorycrafting (exos, jetpacks,etc) the future. My thread was titled very precisely. 178 balance. Here, now.
Saying "the commander needs to play better" is NOT an answer. That's just placing blame. Play better HOW? Do what exactly? Use phase gates? In what way? Are ARCs the answer? How? Send squads? Where? Doing what? And how do you defend the rest of the map?
Can someone suggest strategies and tactics that work, that can compete against a decent alien team? Or at least a strat that doesn't devolve into a 90 minute sentry fest with the server ticking at 8?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
saying coms play better isnt an answer? really? so marines arent dependent on the com knowing for example, how to upgrade armor (yes this has been an issue for teams ive been on). or how to properly launch phasegates, or where hives are in relation to a squad.
"How? Send squads? Where? Doing what? And how do you defend the rest of the map?"
.... this is called.. wait for it.. the COMMANDER ROLE.
hop in the chair and figure it out.
"How? Send squads? Where? Doing what? And how do you defend the rest of the map?"
.... this is called.. wait for it.. the COMMANDER ROLE.
hop in the chair and figure it out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My biggest issue so far is finding any commander strategy that works. As far as I can tell, marine victories in B178 are about dragging the game out long enough until enough alien players quit so that you have a numerical advantage.
There was one guy playing today that said marine strategy was easy: deny aliens a 2nd hive so they can't get fades. Of course, he was playing on the alien side when he dropped that bit of wisdom.
Unfortunately the team couldn't pull together a shotgun rush while they were weak and we ended up losing to a dragged out 45 minute slog. Most of the games I've played marines forget about pushing alien RTs and usually run off alone. By the time those delayed fades are getting up, marines should be getting enough upgrades to handle them.
Unless those missing upgrades show up in the early game, they won't make a lick of difference. It's the early game where Fades are shutting down marine map control and giving the alien team a massive lead that they then use to beat the marine team into submission. Adding in Exosuits and Jetpacks won't change that one bit.
This. Give it a couple of weeks at least and see what kind of gameplay gives you the best marine results. Looks like aeroripper already gave everyone a good starting point.
I'm a bit puzzled by the longer run lifeform balance and such stuff, but I've got absolutely no reason to complain or to be unhappy if the game seems uneven 2-3 days after a huge patch. In a way I'd be pretty disappointed if the game didn't do this kind of swinging motion at this point of development.
After we lost I figured I'll go to the marine side and experience that team-play myself, and wow, what a difference from playing when no one does anything togehter and just runs off. If you (the com/team) actually have a strategy, and if all the marines follow it and work together, victory is not hard at all to achieve!
Was a great experience for me, makes me remember those epic games in NS1:)
Unfortunately the team couldn't pull together a shotgun rush while they were weak and we ended up losing to a dragged out 45 minute slog. Most of the games I've played marines forget about pushing alien RTs and usually run off alone. By the time those delayed fades are getting up, marines should be getting enough upgrades to handle them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am not sure your are referring to the game we played together, but BY GOD you were annoying, killing all my drifters. Your strategy almost paid off.
A few remarks though :
1- I am a beginner at commanding and did not react well to your strategy :-D
2- I should have sent my drifter through west to get central or even west instead of being stubborn and trying to go straight to central.
3- Gully path is hard to hold, I am not sure it was the best place to relocate, West in the next game was easier to hold I think. However it enabled you to push harder on our main hive.
4- I used to agree that fade are OP but seeing the games that we played yesterday I am not so sure anymore... They are still hard to kill even in squads of 3.
5- Regarding the flamethrower argument, I don't agree totally, marines usually take way more time to get FT than aliens fade.
6- Ultimately we aliens, won the game you are referring to (Now I hope that I am not mistaken, but I think I recognize your name), and you are a way better commander that I am.
As a Marine commander I find myself with an ultimatum most of the time, should I move the entire squad to hold a position or should I send some of them to hold a position and keep some of them behind to defend the base. It's too dangerous to leave one position undefended, but it's pointless to only send a squad at anything less than full strength. So usually it doesn't matter either way because I will lose <i>at least</i> one position due to either flimsy footsoldiers or just because the position is undefended.
It seems undeniable in my eyes, there are major imbalances in the early game that make it near impossible for Marines to get a good foothold - exacerbated by the ineptitude of Marine commanders. But good commanding alone cannot ensure victory, the footsoldiers are simply too flimsy to get a job done.
I'm not saying the balance is all out of whack in the "bigger picture", but something is definitely wrong within the current spectrum of the game - even in beta the balance should not be so heavily biased towards aliens that they have a 4:1 advantage over marines. Making it easier to get phase-gates up will allow Marines to cover more ground on the map, avoiding turtling in Marine Start - a major cause of stalemates.
I wish you'd read what I actually say, instead of what you want to see. Let's try this again.
Hi, I'm Squidget, experienced NS2 player, including commanding. I play both sides.
I'm unhappy with 178. If feel it's unbalanced, so much so that the game isn't fun for me. Moreover, the game tends to devolve into sentry fests, no matter who wins. I know that other patches will add more stuff. But that doesn't help me in the short term, because the game isn't fun. I want the game to be at least reasonably fun over the next few weeks and months. So I figured I'd make a post asking for suggestions, maybe I missed something. I wasn't whining, I was looking for solutions. I did not suggest Fades get nerfed or buffed, or change roles. I didn't suggest ANYTHING. I asked for help.
So why do you accuse me of saying things I never even said? You even implied I should be banned.
Why you hatin'?
<!--quoteo(post=1851344:date=Jun 9 2011, 07:47 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jun 9 2011, 07:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851344"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->thats the whole point about squads. thats why marines have pgs, turrets and all the advanced tech they will eventually have. youre complaining about the other 4 aliens, guess what, you can do NOTHING about that. they will ALWAYS be there, doing SOMETHING. you cant NERF this. aliens are melee based, and dont rely so heavily on teamwork, that has been a staple since ns1. marines are the underdogs, always have been. 1 on 1, aliens should kill marines. this is not overpowered, this is the way ITS SUPPOSED TO BE.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That can't be right. If marines can't win fights on equal numbers, and the teams are forced to have equal number of players... then the only way marines win fights is if aliens never coordinate to make the fights equal. NS1 isnt NS2: aliens have a comm now. Aliens can now coordinate just as well as marines can, aliens can use just as much teamwork as marines can. If what you say is true, the balance is screwed, because marines don't have a teamwork advantage anymore.
<!--quoteo(post=1851344:date=Jun 9 2011, 07:47 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jun 9 2011, 07:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851344"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->saying coms play better isnt an answer? really?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope. It's <b>blame</b>. An answer gives guidance for improvement, blame does not. Teaching 101.
<!--quoteo(post=1851344:date=Jun 9 2011, 07:47 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jun 9 2011, 07:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851344"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so marines arent dependent on the com knowing for example, how to upgrade armor (yes this has been an issue for teams ive been on). or how to properly launch phasegates, or where hives are in relation to a squad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's assume the comm isn't a total noob and can find the armor button, because you are obviously hosed in that case. No argument. But that alone can't explain that 83% loss rate.
I have no idea what "launch phasegates" means, or what it means to know where a hive is "in relation to a squad." Please explain.
Exactly. It's about map control. Aliens can coordinate now, and hit you where you are weak. You can't match them one on one without sentries.
It's terrifying that this can get worse, as alien comms are going to get better, too. After all, they have even less experience than marine comms.
After we lost I figured I'll go to the marine side and experience that team-play myself, and wow, what a difference from playing when no one does anything togehter and just runs off. If you (the com/team) actually have a strategy, and if all the marines follow it and work together, victory is not hard at all to achieve!
Was a great experience for me, makes me remember those epic games in NS1:)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You forgot to say HOW. What strategy did you have?
Sigh.