<!--quoteo(post=1852048:date=Jun 12 2011, 05:20 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 12 2011, 05:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852048"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Played against loads of marines, either everyone in the game is terrible at aiming or the basic ability of fades to blink around all over the place severely stretches the limits of human coordination.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's do a bit of math.
Perfect situation: 3 marines with 3 shotguns all fire at one fade, all hitting perfectly without missing any bullets. This does exactly 600 damage. (30 bullets times 20 damage each) Assuming your armor goes down followed by your health (not quite sure how it works exactly) a fade would be taken from roughly full to none in about 4 perfect shots (again, an assumption).
More realistic situation: Fade blinks across a long hallway to a bunch of marines: marines are aware of the fade's presence in the game and are mostly ready for it. They shoot and hit 50 percent of their shots, killing the fade depending on the amount of time they can actually shoot it at for.
Average situation: 3 marines with 3 shotguns all fire 24 shots at a fade, hitting roughly 2 percent of their shots and then run to the forums and complain about how overpowered fades are.
Edit: I just want to clarify that this is exactly the kind of stuff that people in NS1 would find to complain about (only in NS1 Marines were the overpowered side). Walker skulks would get wrecked by marines that could aim/marinebhop/soundesp and then would run off to the forums complaining about how aliens need to be able to kill marines at a distance or call someone an aimbotter. I had really hoped that this kind of stuff wouldn't be in NS2, but I guess that's kinda unavoidable. Just want to clear up my frustration.
Yes, and the point is that the realistic situation is exactly that, realistic.
The ability of the fade to blink around erratically and exploit weak spots with incredible ease puts it at a major advantage over the marines.
That the marines can't aim is not because they're crap, it's because the fade is really damn hard to hit, and it is unrealistic to expect marines to be able to react fast enough and track it accurately enough to be able to kill it quickly, therefore it needs a health cut so that they don't need to hit it as much.
I can't play very well as a skulk, but that's because I am pretty bad at maneuvering, however I can sort of hold my own against a rifle marine, I could conceivably get better at it if I practised more however, as I don't have much experience with being a skulk.
As of this patch however, I am utterly dominating as a fade, because the fade is extremely easy to dodge with, while marines who are perfectly capable of blowing me across the room as a skulk are completely unable to land more than a few glancing hits on me as a fade.
That's the problem, the fade is far too mobile for its health, it is unrealistic to expect marines to kill it quickly with its current health and mobility, so cut the health down to force fades to be a bit more intelligent and to give marines the realistic possibility of killing one of they can aim better, because as it stands, they simply aren't going to be able to aim well enough to kill a fade most of the time, it's beyond practical human ability.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2011
As i said before, going into blink-mode should have a activation cost at around 10-15% of maximum energy. This way we won't be able to completely exploit the blink(invulnerable/invisible mode) by spamming it. This problem has nothing to do with health of the fades, their health havent been changed in this patch. Their blink just need to come at a cost(other than just slowly drain your energy).
Ehh I would honestly much rather just have less health.
I like being able to make short blinks in combat to get behind a marine or dodge a shotgun blast.
Make that 5% of max energy and add a 1 second delay after blinking before your energy starts regenerating, that will make it hard to spam when very low on energy and especially when on fire. Should prevent fades from panic blink spamming away when they are low on health if they aren't managing their energy. Also maybe add a .5-1 second cooldown between blinks, as you shouldn't need to daisy chain them as much once air control is in. The ability to just mash the key and jitter around all over is kind of lame I agree, so that should stop that.
But the health of the fade has changed, the new blink gives them effectively a lot more health because they spend about 5 seconds in the average fight being effectively invincible, either because they're blinking, or because they just exited blink and the marines have to react to where they went and retarget them. This is much more practical than before because the old blink was much harder to use in close quarters.
Fades are totally OP right now. The marines just dont have any counter to the death machine. I went 56-4 yesterday as a fade. I'm not really even that good.
The marines had better get the next batch of upgrades. It's one-sided alien rapeface right now.
I'm not sure if this has been suggested yet, but I think a 2-3 second cooldown for the fade's blink ability would be the best way to better balance the life-form. From the marine perspective, the aliens (aside from the gorge) are very difficult to hit because they have exceptional movement abilities -- the lerk can fly, the skulk and leap and run on walls, and the fade can disappear and reappear in a "blink".
Aliens should maintain their movement advantage over the marines, but they must have a disadvantage as well. Currently the fade has many hit points, decent armor, and exceptional movement ability with no draw-backs (besides the high PR cost). The fade should definitely be a stronger life-form than the skulk and lerk, but it shouldn't be as mobile. Creating a cooldown time for blink will still allow fades to move very quickly either into or out of battle, but it isn't as disorienting from the marine perspective.
Typically marines don't have enough time to get shots off at the fade because it will blink in and out, picking off marines one-by-one. The cooldown would allow marines to get some shots in, enough to do some serious damage if they're in a group of 3 or more, and still allow the fade the element of surprise or the option of a quick escape. Fades would have to be more careful when selecting their battles instead of just blinking into any group of marines within eye or hive sight.
<!--quoteo(post=1852164:date=Jun 12 2011, 02:01 PM:name=hf_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hf_ @ Jun 12 2011, 02:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852164"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure if this has been suggested yet, but I think a 2-3 second cooldown for the fade's blink ability would be the best way to better balance the life-form. From the marine perspective, the aliens (aside from the gorge) are very difficult to hit because they have exceptional movement abilities -- the lerk can fly, the skulk and leap and run on walls, and the fade can disappear and reappear in a "blink".
Aliens should maintain their movement advantage over the marines, but they must have a disadvantage as well. Currently the fade has many hit points, decent armor, and exceptional movement ability with no draw-backs (besides the high PR cost). The fade should definitely be a stronger life-form than the skulk and lerk, but it shouldn't be as mobile. Creating a cooldown time for blink will still allow fades to move very quickly either into or out of battle, but it isn't as disorienting from the marine perspective.
Typically marines don't have enough time to get shots off at the fade because it will blink in and out, picking off marines one-by-one. The cooldown would allow marines to get some shots in, enough to do some serious damage if they're in a group of 3 or more, and still allow the fade the element of surprise or the option of a quick escape. Fades would have to be more careful when selecting their battles instead of just blinking into any group of marines within eye or hive sight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Another way to balance it is to give marine weapons more damaging weapons across the board. As you pointed out, all aliens have "exceptional movement abilities" (and speed and health), which means the odds of hitting any alien (besides the gorge) is minimal at best. Even if the marine does his part of aiming, their is no res-per-kill reward if the alien can always kill him, or run away. In fact a retreating alien has deprived the marine of ammunition, and probably 90% of his health from one hit, which makes him vulnerable to future attacks.
Since right now the rifle is the primary weapon in use by the marines for the ENTIRE ROUND, where shotguns, flamethrowers, and gls are so rare that they shouldn't be considered relevant, now is a good time to boost that damage (and make the weapon sound powerful ffs... Sounds like a nailgun or something). I also suggest increasing the ammunition to 99 rounds per magazine (or a drum-magazine upgrade), and making the muzzle flash 4 ft long.
Hey devs you're right... a suppressor does seem to be a worthy addon :P <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0k69cHjOf8&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0k69cHjOf8...feature=related</a>
Without suppressor xD <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AzsPqUKnKU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AzsPqUKnKU</a>
OK, so I've had a chance to play a few games as marines now in 178. First off, imo, 90% of marine combat trouble is from the networking issues + hit detection being crap. The only way I could consistently kill a moving alien AT ALL was with a flamethrower. I am 100% confident that if I could hit anything, the game would be much different.
That being said, it's very possible for marines to win. I got to be in a long, drawn-out game on Summit (my name was "tastes like skittles" if anyone was there) where the marines won after a good game on both sides.
How? Through early expansion into a tech point, phase gates, and killing alien expansions. We fought of many fades and skulks, always by drawing them into hallways and flamethrower ambushes. If we had to, we stood in halls outside hive rooms, and used rifle/pistol/grenade to snipe at structures and hives, while flamers protected everyone. Any lerks that tried to snipe got nailed by pistols. We didn't even use an ARC because it got stuck as it spawned on top of the robot factory. We also split up, with a few people constantly harassing an alien outpost, and others expanding on the far side of the map. Marines *were* able to kill the second hive a few minutes after it went up by doing this, and only had to deal with a few fades. Our team could take turns as to who went in with rifles and who took turns on flamers - by the time I needed to be the flamer again, I could always afford one.
That being said, if this is not the intended gameplay strategy, of course changes will have to be made. As far as fighting fades, the BIGGEST mistake you can make is not chasing one when it runs. If it is running, it's almost out of health or energy. If it can't blink, it is slow as hell, and will die. If you let it go it will come back full on both, and will kick your ass all over again.
I know these strategies are not final. However, since everyone is complaining about the current status, these are viable solutions to outdoing alien teams. For those of you who can't understand why you should have to fight some units 2v1, then maybe a team game isn't for you. I honestly don't know. There are hard counters and soft counters in strategy games - a fade is a hard counter to a regular marine, and always has been since NS1.
Changed the order some of your post <!--quoteo(post=1852164:date=Jun 12 2011, 08:01 PM:name=hf_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hf_ @ Jun 12 2011, 08:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852164"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure if this has been suggested yet, but I think a 2-3 second cooldown for the fade's blink ability would be the best way to better balance the life-form. From the marine perspective, the aliens (aside from the gorge) are very difficult to hit because they have exceptional movement abilities -- the lerk can fly, the skulk and leap and run on walls, and the fade can disappear and reappear in a "blink".
Typically marines don't have enough time to get shots off at the fade because it will blink in and out, picking off marines one-by-one. The cooldown would allow marines to get some shots in, enough to do some serious damage if they're in a group of 3 or more, and still allow the fade the element of surprise or the option of a quick escape. Fades would have to be more careful when selecting their battles instead of just blinking into any group of marines within eye or hive sight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Let's look at this scenario for a second: Three marines with shotguns, fade blink in and have 2 seconds were it can only run around and hit, with no chance to escape. During those 2 seconds, the marines will be able to fire 2 shots each. Let's look at minimum damage for each pellet (14) and assume 2 shots misses completely. I would consider this a low estimate of a decent marines output (once the game is stable).
Effective damage: 14 damage x 10 pellets x 4 shots = 560 damage. Fade stats: 300 health 100/150/200 armor.
I'm not entierly certain how the armor affects your effective life, but I'm pretty sure it it not just added as bonus life. Regardless, it would be pretty much dead. More resonable scenario: Two marines with shotguns, 2 second window, pointblank range (18 damage/pellet), and 3 out of 4 shots hits.
Effective damage: 18 damage x 10 pellets x 3 shots = 540 damage.
Once again, the fade is pretty much dead, from just two shotgunners.
<!--quoteo(post=1852164:date=Jun 12 2011, 08:01 PM:name=hf_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hf_ @ Jun 12 2011, 08:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852164"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens should maintain their movement advantage over the marines, but they must have a disadvantage as well. Currently the fade has many hit points, decent armor, and exceptional movement ability with no draw-backs (besides the high PR cost). The fade should definitely be a stronger life-form than the skulk and lerk, but it shouldn't be as mobile. Creating a cooldown time for blink will still allow fades to move very quickly either into or out of battle, but it isn't as disorienting from the marine perspective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that in the current state of the game, the durability and movement of the fade seems to be to strong against marines arsenal and hit registration issues (so I've heard, I have always prefered aliens due to their playstyle). Why ignore the cost of the fade? It is highly relevent to balance the game, just as the cost and timing of any upgrade is. For what reason should it not be as mobile? The fade has always been about doing hit and runs, picking off single marines in groups before returning to heal, and with the plans to add quickblink, I can't see it changing.
<!--quoteo(post=1852164:date=Jun 12 2011, 08:01 PM:name=hf_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hf_ @ Jun 12 2011, 08:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852164"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Creating a cooldown time for blink will still allow fades to move very quickly either into or out of battle, but it isn't as disorienting from the marine perspective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, that is true. The fade could run in against the marines to be able to blink to safety (and the marines could sprint down the corridor and spray the fade in the back while it waits for cooldown again). Or it could blink in with little chance of getting away again.
What I think should be done is to reduce the effective health (like 200 health and 75/100/125 armor) of the fade and possibly lower (!) the cost of blinking. This would mean that fades would need to be more careful with what they blink into, make less room for error while keeping the core spirit of being a fade. This would make those who can use their skilled movement (blink) better would make alot bigger difference than those who are poor at it.
I think it is to easy to be good at the fade right now. It will change with strategies and more tech, but we can't balance for that now. Making the fades rely more on blinking and less on effective health would make for more interesting games and a greater sense of accomplishment: You outskilled your opponents instead of just being able to take the beating.
<!--quoteo(post=1851947:date=Jun 11 2011, 09:13 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jun 11 2011, 09:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851947"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem with your argument, VeNeM, is that: - The fade is a tier 2 lifeform. - Marines already have pretty much all of their tier 1 and tier 2 player-vs-player upgrades. - The aliens don't have all of their tier 1 and 2 player-vs-player upgrades. So the tier 2 aliens are going to get stronger, while the tier 2 marines aren't. Do you understand this?
I think that UWE should simply drop fade hit points (health and armour), and at the same time, drop shotgun damage.
Maybe give the aliens the toggleable ability to redirect damage to energy if they need the extra hit points, and can sacrifice their ability spam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> what you dont understand is that marines dont have "tiers" in the traditional sense. they have several tech upgrades. depending on the time and com you can be facing a vanilla marine or a armored shotgun wielding marine. also there are no player vs player upgrades for marines as they have several different weapons to choose from. there is no "anti lerk" class. there is a weapon that marines to use to counter it though.
- marines dont have their full upgrade tree. which means when they DO, fades like in ns1, will take the backseat to much stronger aliens.
THIS is what YOU dont understand.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that UWE should simply drop fade hit points (health and armour), and at the same time, drop shotgun damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With the current resource system and citing your example, three marines should have the advantage over one fade. Collectively, the marines have spent 75 PR to the fade's 50 PR. Aliens have always been more individualistic than the marine team, but still I think fades should question blinking alone into a group of 3 marines with shotguns, instead of feeling invulnerable with both high hit points and high maneuverability.
I like the fade having the same health and armor now as it is a much larger life-form than the lerk and skulk, and the alien team should have an in-between "tank" form skulk / lerk to onos. If you reduce the health and armor, skulk and fade could play a little too similarly. The fade should be able to take a fair amount of damage, using the blink ability to disorient marines and escape battle when in trouble.
A 2 second cooldown is not very long.. you'd still be able to do some damage, and it's not like you're standing still post-blink. With the NS2 team saying that momentum will be carried over and you have the ability to blink in any direction with (hopefully) the next patch, the ability is only going to get stronger. I'm speaking from the marine perspective where it seems that you either have to be very lucky or have an extreme number advantage over the alien player in order to take down a fade.
<!--quoteo(post=1852243:date=Jun 12 2011, 08:36 PM:name=hf_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hf_ @ Jun 12 2011, 08:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852243"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With the current resource system and citing your example, three marines should have the advantage over one fade. Collectively, the marines have spent 75 PR to the fade's 50 PR. Aliens have always been more individualistic than the marine team, but still I think fades should question blinking alone into a group of 3 marines with shotguns, instead of feeling invulnerable with both high hit points and high maneuverability.
I like the fade having the same health and armor now as it is a much larger life-form than the lerk and skulk, and the alien team should have an in-between "tank" form skulk / lerk to onos. If you reduce the health and armor, skulk and fade could play a little too similarly. The fade should be able to take a fair amount of damage, using the blink ability to disorient marines and escape battle when in trouble.
A 2 second cooldown is not very long.. you'd still be able to do some damage, and it's not like you're standing still post-blink. With the NS2 team saying that momentum will be carried over and you have the ability to blink in any direction with (hopefully) the next patch, the ability is only going to get stronger. I'm speaking from the marine perspective where it seems that you either have to be very lucky or have an extreme number advantage over the alien player in order to take down a fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Three marines DO have an advantage over a fade. The problem is in order to hit *any* alien, the marines need to have flamethrowers or the alien has to be running in a straight line. Fades running out of energy would put them in that kind of situation, and the flamer's energy sapping helps with that. If a fade is on fire and cannot get to a gorge, he should be dead. He *cannot* outrun a marine out of energy.
So yes, if a fade goes into 3 shotgun wielding marines, he will win, because bullet weapons can't hit for crap right now. If all of them landed even one shot each, he'd be dead.
Let me first say that I love the new Fade. The new Blink ability makes his screen presence as fearsome as it should be.
There are many counters to the fade 1) Gang - As a group crowding in a fade works fabulously...your numbers may need to be higher (3 vs 1). But nonetheless the mentality sticks.
2) Flamethrower - The flamethrower is truly the wet towel to the blink party. Not ALL flamethrowers but one plus shotties or even rifles. Several times I saw 1 flamer + 1 shottie do the job nicely.
3) Move out of your basement - This is THE biggest reason I live the fade. In the games we won as marines, it was because we were constantly chopping down that recent hive. Contantly expanding, constantly moving. This is how RTS games are won, not by turtling. And they were good teams they were constantly chopping our expansion as well. Epic epic fade fights, with the other team dropping that recent hive.
So maybe just maybe the fade is a little OP. i will allow a maybe.
I hope and pray that they will proceed cautiously in whatever changes they examine. because the fade is a game changer. It is epic and exciting...and i would hate to see all its greatness chopped down.
The shotgun is a game changer, so should the fade be.
The way I see it now in 178 marines and skulks start fairly balanced...early game is scouting, sniffing each other out, maybe a little expansion. the first game changer is the shotgun.... the aliens have to react to that. the next one is the fade .... now it is the marines chance to hold on. the next one is the flamethrower ... this helps in taking out structures AND fades. the next one is the ARC .... the aliens have to usually WORK TOGETHER to take down the ARC. and in the future... the JP, EXO, and Onos
<!--quoteo(post=1852242:date=Jun 13 2011, 09:34 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jun 13 2011, 09:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852242"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what you dont understand is that marines dont have "tiers" in the traditional sense. they have several tech upgrades. depending on the time and com you can be facing a vanilla marine or a armored shotgun wielding marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But they have "tiers" in any effective sense. That's just semantics. Your argument is moot.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->also there are no player vs player upgrades for marines as they have several different weapons to choose from. there is no "anti lerk" class. there is a weapon that marines to use to counter it though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Damage1/2/3 and Armour1/2/3 are player vs player upgrades. Researching shotguns and flamethrowers are player vs player upgrades. For the sake of comparison, what isn't a player vs player upgrade? ARCs.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- marines dont have their full upgrade tree. which means when they DO, fades like in ns1, will take the backseat to much stronger aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Basically, you're wrong. Sorry. The marine tech tree is already more complete than the alien tech tree. The balance problem isn't with varying tech tiers/levels/progress, it's much more basic than that, which is what you fail to understand. Maybe you need the huge HP crutch to play Fade, I don't know.
<!--quoteo(post=1852247:date=Jun 13 2011, 10:07 AM:name=kingmob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kingmob @ Jun 13 2011, 10:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852247"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In the games we won as marines, it was because we were constantly chopping down that recent hive. Contantly expanding, constantly moving. This is how RTS games are won, not by turtling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sure, but from a conceptual point of view, that doesn't sound very fun, and seems like it'd get repetitive. Basically you're saying that there is only one way for marines to win, only one approach, one strategy, no choice. On the other hand, aliens also have essentially just one way to win: get fades, but technically they do at least have a choice - but the others just aren't as effective. The problem though, is that the aliens' one win strategy is <b>a lot easier</b> for them to achieve than the marines' one win strategy is for them to achieve.
<!--quoteo(post=1852243:date=Jun 13 2011, 03:36 AM:name=hf_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hf_ @ Jun 13 2011, 03:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852243"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the fade having the same health and armor now as it is a much larger life-form than the lerk and skulk, and the alien team should have an in-between "tank" form skulk / lerk to onos. If you reduce the health and armor, skulk and fade could play a little too similarly. The fade should be able to take a fair amount of damage, using the blink ability to disorient marines and escape battle when in trouble.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And the way it should tank should be by buying time in combat by useing blink for temporar invurnability and making the marines lose tracking, not by just standing and take it. A fade that uses blink alot in combat is hard to hit. That is the style that I think fits the fade the most and should be emphatized, but together with the high health it just bring to much room for error on the fade part. Atleast now.
<!--quoteo(post=1852243:date=Jun 13 2011, 03:36 AM:name=hf_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hf_ @ Jun 13 2011, 03:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852243"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A 2 second cooldown is not very long.. you'd still be able to do some damage, and it's not like you're standing still post-blink.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The thing is, a two second cooldown is too long. Any cooldown is. There is actually a slight delay before you can use swipe after a blink, so it's not like the fade can come out of blink, instantly hit you in a split second, and then poof out of existance. That the fade will run after the blink really doesn't matter. If a shotgun can't track a fade that is just running around, then you would really need to improve your tracking. <!--quoteo(post=1852243:date=Jun 13 2011, 03:36 AM:name=hf_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hf_ @ Jun 13 2011, 03:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852243"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With the NS2 team saying that momentum will be carried over and you have the ability to blink in any direction with (hopefully) the next patch, the ability is only going to get stronger. I'm speaking from the marine perspective where it seems that you either have to be very lucky or have an extreme number advantage over the alien player in order to take down a fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As shown im my example, you just need two decent shotgunners against a fade. I can't see how two marines are an extreme numerical advantage over one fade, especially considering that marines should only under very special circumstances run alone.
<!--quoteo(post=1852244:date=Jun 13 2011, 03:46 AM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Jun 13 2011, 03:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852244"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So yes, if a fade goes into 3 shotgun wielding marines, he will win, because bullet weapons can't hit for crap right now. If all of them landed even one shot each, he'd be dead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the main issue right now, yes. I do however still think the fade should be tuned for more skillfull blinking and dodging in combat and be less tanky in the traditional sense of a high effective health. I'd say an effective health of just above what is required to survive two pointblank shots would be good, with blink and quickblink greatly increasing the lifetime of a skilled fade. That way he can survive one "full" blast from a group of two if he don't outmaneuver them, yet still with any more, he would be basically dead and forced to escape.
<!--quoteo(post=1852258:date=Jun 12 2011, 11:16 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jun 12 2011, 11:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852258"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically, you're wrong. Sorry. The marine tech tree is already more complete than the alien tech tree.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and you obviously have no idea what youre talking about.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
I played a few games over the weekend where the marines won. With the right commander and quick expansion, the marines can win, even with fades. One key is to keep the aliens limited to two or fewer res nodes, which can be done with constant pressure.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2011
Well, I solo'ed a fade that had a skulk as backup, today. I agree that their new blink is a little OP because it's so spammable. Which makes it very easy to avoid shotgun shells. Still I'd say, give the blink a activation cost and decrease the drain a little.
<!--quoteo(post=1852297:date=Jun 13 2011, 06:08 AM:name=Fluid Core)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fluid Core @ Jun 13 2011, 06:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852297"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is the main issue right now, yes. I do however still think the fade should be tuned for more skillfull blinking and dodging in combat and be less tanky in the traditional sense of a high effective health. I'd say an effective health of just above what is required two pointblank shots would be good, with blink and quickblink greatly reducing the lifetime of a skilled fade. That way he can survive one "full" blast from a group of two if he don't outmaneuver them, yet still with any more, he would be basically dead and forced to escape.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the balance could wind up something like this, that would be cool. I don't mind trading health for better blinking.
I also agree that cooldown between blinks would be absolutely insane. To put this in perspective for those who said "two seconds," the freaking shotgun fires around once every two seconds. Do you really think a fade would have any chance like that?
Deadzone, when I read your post I realised that I had slipped on some words there. You got the correct meaning still though. I have now corrected the post into this:
<!--quoteo(post=1852297:date=Jun 13 2011, 01:08 PM:name=Fluid Core)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fluid Core @ Jun 13 2011, 01:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852297"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is the main issue right now, yes. I do however still think the fade should be tuned for more skillfull blinking and dodging in combat and be less tanky in the traditional sense of a high effective health. I'd say an effective health of just above what is required to survive two pointblank shots would be good, with blink and quickblink greatly increasing the lifetime of a skilled fade. That way he can survive one "full" blast from a group of two if he don't outmaneuver them, yet still with any more, he would be basically dead and forced to escape.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-Fades feel a bit beefy at this point. (It's not grossly off though)
-Lerks feel really mean too, they don't feel unbalanced id say. The skill cap might be perfectly hit with this class, I'll have to play it a bit more.
-Felt frustrated for the first time playing marine, balance is bit skewed for aliens right now, rifle/shotgun.. aren't cutting it for me at this point.
-Next patch might be a good one to add another weapon(or armor).. or marine personal weapon upgrades.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
I've seen a lot more marine wins lately. Commanders are starting to adjust to the changes and understand how to win. Granted, there are still many more alien victories, but it's not as bad as some think.
I know one tactic. In a 5v5, I was rine commander. I told my men to stick toghether atleast in 2 men teams. weve expanded fast, took heliport and checked the other two expansions often. We kept the pressure on AS and soon began building up Xroads. After we got Xroads, weve noticed a fade, so we tried to kill it, it blinked somewhere. I told my men to get SA hive dead. After SA was dead it was a cakewalk.
So: DO. NOT. LET. THEM. GET. A. 2ND. HIVE. Without fades, marines got a chance if they stick and be aware of traps. with fades: run.
<!--quoteo(post=1851069:date=Jun 9 2011, 12:07 AM:name=Ryo-Ohki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ryo-Ohki @ Jun 9 2011, 12:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851069"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->hated it in NS1 and why I decry it's entry into NS2. Now players can (and do) go Fade much, much earlier than they should be. Small wonder they're carving Marines teams up. I find it utterly astonishing that in the dev team's thoughts on RFK's introduction they made no mention of this as a downside (and having read through their thoughts on this matter, I'd be even more astonished if they took RFK out given that they seem to think it's the best thing since sliced bread). Nerfing the Fade isn't the answer; RFK is and always has been the issue here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fades shouldn't be showing up any earlier with RFK as they still depend on 2 hives - that should be the real bottleneck.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
Only problem is, with the current infestation to get a second res tower, aliens need to get a hive asap, so its usually the first thing they build when the round starts.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1852665:date=Jun 14 2011, 01:50 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jun 14 2011, 01:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fades shouldn't be showing up any earlier with RFK as they still depend on 2 hives - that should be the real bottleneck.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really. You have enough res to drop a hive at the start of the game (unlike NS1). You can also have several gorges help build the hive faster so it can construct in under 180 seconds (unlike NS1). The result is that you can have a second hive up in under 2 minutes, and fades shortly after.
It can be hard sifting through balance posts and trying to make sense of them (fact? opinion? personal/team bias?), but after reading enough posts and watching videos, patterns do emerge. There are lots of insights here though and they do help make the path forward more clear.
Of course it IS early but that doesn't mean we should helplessly suffer balance problems until we have more game features in. Whenever possible, the game should be fun now, if not yet fully-featured. And changing numbers is certainly possible. So the relevant balance changes for 179 are as follows:
<b>Shotgun cost reduced from 25 to 15</b> (it was inflated from previous versions and NS1 and should help address the feelings of poverty on the marine side)
<b>Reduced Fade armor from 100 to 50</b> (translates to 20% less total "health" and should compensate for the fact that the Fades are now invulnerable while blinking, which wasn't the case in NS1...but it NS2 was using the health and armor values from NS1.)
<b>Reduced ARC cost from 25 to 20</b> (ARCs seem a bit rare and much of their cost is in the Robotics Factory. Pathing-related deaths are another reason for this change. Also note, all damage-dealing capabilities must cost personal res, not team res.)
<b>Fixed bug where Gorges could help speed building of hives</b> (should prevent Fades from showing up early)
<b>Lowered energy recuperation when on fire from 20% per second to 10% per second</b> (improves its "crippling" effect on Fades and others)
There are other changes too - we added Bile Bomb for Gorge (researchable by the comm and purchasable by Gorges) - but these are the ones that are germane to this thread.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Sounds good Flayra!
Only thing I don't understand is the ARC cost. Why must it require personal res? Sentry turrets do damage and cost team resources. The ARC is a team-based weapon and I don't see any reason not to make it cost team resources.
Comments
Let's do a bit of math.
Perfect situation:
3 marines with 3 shotguns all fire at one fade, all hitting perfectly without missing any bullets. This does exactly 600 damage. (30 bullets times 20 damage each)
Assuming your armor goes down followed by your health (not quite sure how it works exactly) a fade would be taken from roughly full to none in about 4 perfect shots (again, an assumption).
More realistic situation:
Fade blinks across a long hallway to a bunch of marines: marines are aware of the fade's presence in the game and are mostly ready for it. They shoot and hit 50 percent of their shots, killing the fade depending on the amount of time they can actually shoot it at for.
Average situation:
3 marines with 3 shotguns all fire 24 shots at a fade, hitting roughly 2 percent of their shots and then run to the forums and complain about how overpowered fades are.
Edit: I just want to clarify that this is exactly the kind of stuff that people in NS1 would find to complain about (only in NS1 Marines were the overpowered side). Walker skulks would get wrecked by marines that could aim/marinebhop/soundesp and then would run off to the forums complaining about how aliens need to be able to kill marines at a distance or call someone an aimbotter. I had really hoped that this kind of stuff wouldn't be in NS2, but I guess that's kinda unavoidable. Just want to clear up my frustration.
The ability of the fade to blink around erratically and exploit weak spots with incredible ease puts it at a major advantage over the marines.
That the marines can't aim is not because they're crap, it's because the fade is really damn hard to hit, and it is unrealistic to expect marines to be able to react fast enough and track it accurately enough to be able to kill it quickly, therefore it needs a health cut so that they don't need to hit it as much.
I can't play very well as a skulk, but that's because I am pretty bad at maneuvering, however I can sort of hold my own against a rifle marine, I could conceivably get better at it if I practised more however, as I don't have much experience with being a skulk.
As of this patch however, I am utterly dominating as a fade, because the fade is extremely easy to dodge with, while marines who are perfectly capable of blowing me across the room as a skulk are completely unable to land more than a few glancing hits on me as a fade.
That's the problem, the fade is far too mobile for its health, it is unrealistic to expect marines to kill it quickly with its current health and mobility, so cut the health down to force fades to be a bit more intelligent and to give marines the realistic possibility of killing one of they can aim better, because as it stands, they simply aren't going to be able to aim well enough to kill a fade most of the time, it's beyond practical human ability.
This way we won't be able to completely exploit the blink(invulnerable/invisible mode) by spamming it.
This problem has nothing to do with health of the fades, their health havent been changed in this patch. Their blink just need to come at a cost(other than just slowly drain your energy).
And they all lived happily ever after.
I like being able to make short blinks in combat to get behind a marine or dodge a shotgun blast.
Make that 5% of max energy and add a 1 second delay after blinking before your energy starts regenerating, that will make it hard to spam when very low on energy and especially when on fire. Should prevent fades from panic blink spamming away when they are low on health if they aren't managing their energy. Also maybe add a .5-1 second cooldown between blinks, as you shouldn't need to daisy chain them as much once air control is in. The ability to just mash the key and jitter around all over is kind of lame I agree, so that should stop that.
But the health of the fade has changed, the new blink gives them effectively a lot more health because they spend about 5 seconds in the average fight being effectively invincible, either because they're blinking, or because they just exited blink and the marines have to react to where they went and retarget them. This is much more practical than before because the old blink was much harder to use in close quarters.
The marines had better get the next batch of upgrades. It's one-sided alien rapeface right now.
Aliens should maintain their movement advantage over the marines, but they must have a disadvantage as well. Currently the fade has many hit points, decent armor, and exceptional movement ability with no draw-backs (besides the high PR cost). The fade should definitely be a stronger life-form than the skulk and lerk, but it shouldn't be as mobile. Creating a cooldown time for blink will still allow fades to move very quickly either into or out of battle, but it isn't as disorienting from the marine perspective.
Typically marines don't have enough time to get shots off at the fade because it will blink in and out, picking off marines one-by-one. The cooldown would allow marines to get some shots in, enough to do some serious damage if they're in a group of 3 or more, and still allow the fade the element of surprise or the option of a quick escape. Fades would have to be more careful when selecting their battles instead of just blinking into any group of marines within eye or hive sight.
Aliens should maintain their movement advantage over the marines, but they must have a disadvantage as well. Currently the fade has many hit points, decent armor, and exceptional movement ability with no draw-backs (besides the high PR cost). The fade should definitely be a stronger life-form than the skulk and lerk, but it shouldn't be as mobile. Creating a cooldown time for blink will still allow fades to move very quickly either into or out of battle, but it isn't as disorienting from the marine perspective.
Typically marines don't have enough time to get shots off at the fade because it will blink in and out, picking off marines one-by-one. The cooldown would allow marines to get some shots in, enough to do some serious damage if they're in a group of 3 or more, and still allow the fade the element of surprise or the option of a quick escape. Fades would have to be more careful when selecting their battles instead of just blinking into any group of marines within eye or hive sight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Another way to balance it is to give marine weapons more damaging weapons across the board. As you pointed out, all aliens have "exceptional movement abilities" (and speed and health), which means the odds of hitting any alien (besides the gorge) is minimal at best. Even if the marine does his part of aiming, their is no res-per-kill reward if the alien can always kill him, or run away. In fact a retreating alien has deprived the marine of ammunition, and probably 90% of his health from one hit, which makes him vulnerable to future attacks.
Since right now the rifle is the primary weapon in use by the marines for the ENTIRE ROUND, where shotguns, flamethrowers, and gls are so rare that they shouldn't be considered relevant, now is a good time to boost that damage (and make the weapon sound powerful ffs... Sounds like a nailgun or something). I also suggest increasing the ammunition to 99 rounds per magazine (or a drum-magazine upgrade), and making the muzzle flash 4 ft long.
Hey devs you're right... a suppressor does seem to be a worthy addon :P
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0k69cHjOf8&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0k69cHjOf8...feature=related</a>
Without suppressor xD
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AzsPqUKnKU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AzsPqUKnKU</a>
That being said, it's very possible for marines to win. I got to be in a long, drawn-out game on Summit (my name was "tastes like skittles" if anyone was there) where the marines won after a good game on both sides.
How? Through early expansion into a tech point, phase gates, and killing alien expansions. We fought of many fades and skulks, always by drawing them into hallways and flamethrower ambushes. If we had to, we stood in halls outside hive rooms, and used rifle/pistol/grenade to snipe at structures and hives, while flamers protected everyone. Any lerks that tried to snipe got nailed by pistols. We didn't even use an ARC because it got stuck as it spawned on top of the robot factory.
We also split up, with a few people constantly harassing an alien outpost, and others expanding on the far side of the map. Marines *were* able to kill the second hive a few minutes after it went up by doing this, and only had to deal with a few fades. Our team could take turns as to who went in with rifles and who took turns on flamers - by the time I needed to be the flamer again, I could always afford one.
That being said, if this is not the intended gameplay strategy, of course changes will have to be made. As far as fighting fades, the BIGGEST mistake you can make is not chasing one when it runs. If it is running, it's almost out of health or energy. If it can't blink, it is slow as hell, and will die. If you let it go it will come back full on both, and will kick your ass all over again.
I know these strategies are not final. However, since everyone is complaining about the current status, these are viable solutions to outdoing alien teams. For those of you who can't understand why you should have to fight some units 2v1, then maybe a team game isn't for you. I honestly don't know. There are hard counters and soft counters in strategy games - a fade is a hard counter to a regular marine, and always has been since NS1.
<!--quoteo(post=1852164:date=Jun 12 2011, 08:01 PM:name=hf_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hf_ @ Jun 12 2011, 08:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852164"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure if this has been suggested yet, but I think a 2-3 second cooldown for the fade's blink ability would be the best way to better balance the life-form. From the marine perspective, the aliens (aside from the gorge) are very difficult to hit because they have exceptional movement abilities -- the lerk can fly, the skulk and leap and run on walls, and the fade can disappear and reappear in a "blink".
Typically marines don't have enough time to get shots off at the fade because it will blink in and out, picking off marines one-by-one. The cooldown would allow marines to get some shots in, enough to do some serious damage if they're in a group of 3 or more, and still allow the fade the element of surprise or the option of a quick escape. Fades would have to be more careful when selecting their battles instead of just blinking into any group of marines within eye or hive sight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's look at this scenario for a second:
Three marines with shotguns, fade blink in and have 2 seconds were it can only run around and hit, with no chance to escape. During those 2 seconds, the marines will be able to fire 2 shots each. Let's look at minimum damage for each pellet (14) and assume 2 shots misses completely. I would consider this a low estimate of a decent marines output (once the game is stable).
Effective damage: 14 damage x 10 pellets x 4 shots = 560 damage.
Fade stats: 300 health 100/150/200 armor.
I'm not entierly certain how the armor affects your effective life, but I'm pretty sure it it not just added as bonus life. Regardless, it would be pretty much dead.
More resonable scenario: Two marines with shotguns, 2 second window, pointblank range (18 damage/pellet), and 3 out of 4 shots hits.
Effective damage: 18 damage x 10 pellets x 3 shots = 540 damage.
Once again, the fade is pretty much dead, from just two shotgunners.
<!--quoteo(post=1852164:date=Jun 12 2011, 08:01 PM:name=hf_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hf_ @ Jun 12 2011, 08:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852164"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens should maintain their movement advantage over the marines, but they must have a disadvantage as well. Currently the fade has many hit points, decent armor, and exceptional movement ability with no draw-backs (besides the high PR cost). The fade should definitely be a stronger life-form than the skulk and lerk, but it shouldn't be as mobile. Creating a cooldown time for blink will still allow fades to move very quickly either into or out of battle, but it isn't as disorienting from the marine perspective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that in the current state of the game, the durability and movement of the fade seems to be to strong against marines arsenal and hit registration issues (so I've heard, I have always prefered aliens due to their playstyle). Why ignore the cost of the fade? It is highly relevent to balance the game, just as the cost and timing of any upgrade is.
For what reason should it not be as mobile? The fade has always been about doing hit and runs, picking off single marines in groups before returning to heal, and with the plans to add quickblink, I can't see it changing.
<!--quoteo(post=1852164:date=Jun 12 2011, 08:01 PM:name=hf_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hf_ @ Jun 12 2011, 08:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852164"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Creating a cooldown time for blink will still allow fades to move very quickly either into or out of battle, but it isn't as disorienting from the marine perspective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, that is true. The fade could run in against the marines to be able to blink to safety (and the marines could sprint down the corridor and spray the fade in the back while it waits for cooldown again). Or it could blink in with little chance of getting away again.
What I think should be done is to reduce the effective health (like 200 health and 75/100/125 armor) of the fade and possibly lower (!) the cost of blinking. This would mean that fades would need to be more careful with what they blink into, make less room for error while keeping the core spirit of being a fade. This would make those who can use their skilled movement (blink) better would make alot bigger difference than those who are poor at it.
I think it is to easy to be good at the fade right now. It will change with strategies and more tech, but we can't balance for that now. Making the fades rely more on blinking and less on effective health would make for more interesting games and a greater sense of accomplishment: You outskilled your opponents instead of just being able to take the beating.
- The fade is a tier 2 lifeform.
- Marines already have pretty much all of their tier 1 and tier 2 player-vs-player upgrades.
- The aliens don't have all of their tier 1 and 2 player-vs-player upgrades.
So the tier 2 aliens are going to get stronger, while the tier 2 marines aren't. Do you understand this?
I think that UWE should simply drop fade hit points (health and armour), and at the same time, drop shotgun damage.
Maybe give the aliens the toggleable ability to redirect damage to energy if they need the extra hit points, and can sacrifice their ability spam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what you dont understand is that marines dont have "tiers" in the traditional sense. they have several tech upgrades. depending on the time and com you can be facing a vanilla marine or a armored shotgun wielding marine. also there are no player vs player upgrades for marines as they have several different weapons to choose from. there is no "anti lerk" class. there is a weapon that marines to use to counter it though.
- marines dont have their full upgrade tree. which means when they DO, fades like in ns1, will take the backseat to much stronger aliens.
THIS is what YOU dont understand.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that UWE should simply drop fade hit points (health and armour), and at the same time, drop shotgun damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
rofl
I like the fade having the same health and armor now as it is a much larger life-form than the lerk and skulk, and the alien team should have an in-between "tank" form skulk / lerk to onos. If you reduce the health and armor, skulk and fade could play a little too similarly. The fade should be able to take a fair amount of damage, using the blink ability to disorient marines and escape battle when in trouble.
A 2 second cooldown is not very long.. you'd still be able to do some damage, and it's not like you're standing still post-blink. With the NS2 team saying that momentum will be carried over and you have the ability to blink in any direction with (hopefully) the next patch, the ability is only going to get stronger. I'm speaking from the marine perspective where it seems that you either have to be very lucky or have an extreme number advantage over the alien player in order to take down a fade.
I like the fade having the same health and armor now as it is a much larger life-form than the lerk and skulk, and the alien team should have an in-between "tank" form skulk / lerk to onos. If you reduce the health and armor, skulk and fade could play a little too similarly. The fade should be able to take a fair amount of damage, using the blink ability to disorient marines and escape battle when in trouble.
A 2 second cooldown is not very long.. you'd still be able to do some damage, and it's not like you're standing still post-blink. With the NS2 team saying that momentum will be carried over and you have the ability to blink in any direction with (hopefully) the next patch, the ability is only going to get stronger. I'm speaking from the marine perspective where it seems that you either have to be very lucky or have an extreme number advantage over the alien player in order to take down a fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Three marines DO have an advantage over a fade. The problem is in order to hit *any* alien, the marines need to have flamethrowers or the alien has to be running in a straight line. Fades running out of energy would put them in that kind of situation, and the flamer's energy sapping helps with that. If a fade is on fire and cannot get to a gorge, he should be dead. He *cannot* outrun a marine out of energy.
So yes, if a fade goes into 3 shotgun wielding marines, he will win, because bullet weapons can't hit for crap right now. If all of them landed even one shot each, he'd be dead.
The new Blink ability makes his screen presence as fearsome as it should be.
There are many counters to the fade
1) Gang - As a group crowding in a fade works fabulously...your numbers may need to be higher (3 vs 1). But nonetheless the mentality sticks.
2) Flamethrower - The flamethrower is truly the wet towel to the blink party. Not ALL flamethrowers but one plus shotties or even rifles. Several times I saw 1 flamer + 1 shottie do the job nicely.
3) Move out of your basement - This is THE biggest reason I live the fade.
In the games we won as marines, it was because we were constantly chopping down that recent hive.
Contantly expanding, constantly moving.
This is how RTS games are won, not by turtling.
And they were good teams they were constantly chopping our expansion as well.
Epic epic fade fights, with the other team dropping that recent hive.
So maybe just maybe the fade is a little OP.
i will allow a maybe.
I hope and pray that they will proceed cautiously in whatever changes they examine.
because the fade is a game changer.
It is epic and exciting...and i would hate to see all its greatness chopped down.
The shotgun is a game changer, so should the fade be.
The way I see it now in 178
marines and skulks start fairly balanced...early game is scouting, sniffing each other out, maybe a little expansion.
the first game changer is the shotgun.... the aliens have to react to that.
the next one is the fade .... now it is the marines chance to hold on.
the next one is the flamethrower ... this helps in taking out structures AND fades.
the next one is the ARC .... the aliens have to usually WORK TOGETHER to take down the ARC.
and in the future...
the JP, EXO, and Onos
<!--quoteo(post=1852242:date=Jun 13 2011, 09:34 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jun 13 2011, 09:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852242"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what you dont understand is that marines dont have "tiers" in the traditional sense. they have several tech upgrades. depending on the time and com you can be facing a vanilla marine or a armored shotgun wielding marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But they have "tiers" in any effective sense. That's just semantics. Your argument is moot.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->also there are no player vs player upgrades for marines as they have several different weapons to choose from. there is no "anti lerk" class. there is a weapon that marines to use to counter it though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Damage1/2/3 and Armour1/2/3 are player vs player upgrades. Researching shotguns and flamethrowers are player vs player upgrades. For the sake of comparison, what isn't a player vs player upgrade? ARCs.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- marines dont have their full upgrade tree. which means when they DO, fades like in ns1, will take the backseat to much stronger aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Basically, you're wrong. Sorry. The marine tech tree is already more complete than the alien tech tree. The balance problem isn't with varying tech tiers/levels/progress, it's much more basic than that, which is what you fail to understand. Maybe you need the huge HP crutch to play Fade, I don't know.
<!--quoteo(post=1852247:date=Jun 13 2011, 10:07 AM:name=kingmob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kingmob @ Jun 13 2011, 10:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852247"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In the games we won as marines, it was because we were constantly chopping down that recent hive.
Contantly expanding, constantly moving.
This is how RTS games are won, not by turtling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, but from a conceptual point of view, that doesn't sound very fun, and seems like it'd get repetitive. Basically you're saying that there is only one way for marines to win, only one approach, one strategy, no choice. On the other hand, aliens also have essentially just one way to win: get fades, but technically they do at least have a choice - but the others just aren't as effective. The problem though, is that the aliens' one win strategy is <b>a lot easier</b> for them to achieve than the marines' one win strategy is for them to achieve.
And the way it should tank should be by buying time in combat by useing blink for temporar invurnability and making the marines lose tracking, not by just standing and take it. A fade that uses blink alot in combat is hard to hit. That is the style that I think fits the fade the most and should be emphatized, but together with the high health it just bring to much room for error on the fade part. Atleast now.
<!--quoteo(post=1852243:date=Jun 13 2011, 03:36 AM:name=hf_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hf_ @ Jun 13 2011, 03:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852243"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A 2 second cooldown is not very long.. you'd still be able to do some damage, and it's not like you're standing still post-blink.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is, a two second cooldown is too long. Any cooldown is. There is actually a slight delay before you can use swipe after a blink, so it's not like the fade can come out of blink, instantly hit you in a split second, and then poof out of existance. That the fade will run after the blink really doesn't matter. If a shotgun can't track a fade that is just running around, then you would really need to improve your tracking.
<!--quoteo(post=1852243:date=Jun 13 2011, 03:36 AM:name=hf_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hf_ @ Jun 13 2011, 03:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852243"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With the NS2 team saying that momentum will be carried over and you have the ability to blink in any direction with (hopefully) the next patch, the ability is only going to get stronger. I'm speaking from the marine perspective where it seems that you either have to be very lucky or have an extreme number advantage over the alien player in order to take down a fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As shown im my example, you just need two decent shotgunners against a fade. I can't see how two marines are an extreme numerical advantage over one fade, especially considering that marines should only under very special circumstances run alone.
<!--quoteo(post=1852244:date=Jun 13 2011, 03:46 AM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Jun 13 2011, 03:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852244"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So yes, if a fade goes into 3 shotgun wielding marines, he will win, because bullet weapons can't hit for crap right now. If all of them landed even one shot each, he'd be dead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the main issue right now, yes. I do however still think the fade should be tuned for more skillfull blinking and dodging in combat and be less tanky in the traditional sense of a high effective health. I'd say an effective health of just above what is required to survive two pointblank shots would be good, with blink and quickblink greatly increasing the lifetime of a skilled fade. That way he can survive one "full" blast from a group of two if he don't outmaneuver them, yet still with any more, he would be basically dead and forced to escape.
and you obviously have no idea what youre talking about.
moving along.
If the balance could wind up something like this, that would be cool. I don't mind trading health for better blinking.
I also agree that cooldown between blinks would be absolutely insane. To put this in perspective for those who said "two seconds," the freaking shotgun fires around once every two seconds. Do you really think a fade would have any chance like that?
<!--quoteo(post=1852297:date=Jun 13 2011, 01:08 PM:name=Fluid Core)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fluid Core @ Jun 13 2011, 01:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852297"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is the main issue right now, yes. I do however still think the fade should be tuned for more skillfull blinking and dodging in combat and be less tanky in the traditional sense of a high effective health. I'd say an effective health of just above what is required to survive two pointblank shots would be good, with blink and quickblink greatly increasing the lifetime of a skilled fade. That way he can survive one "full" blast from a group of two if he don't outmaneuver them, yet still with any more, he would be basically dead and forced to escape.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-Lerks feel really mean too, they don't feel unbalanced id say. The skill cap might be perfectly hit with this class, I'll have to play it a bit more.
-Felt frustrated for the first time playing marine, balance is bit skewed for aliens right now, rifle/shotgun.. aren't cutting it for me at this point.
-Next patch might be a good one to add another weapon(or armor).. or marine personal weapon upgrades.
In a 5v5, I was rine commander.
I told my men to stick toghether atleast in 2 men teams.
weve expanded fast, took heliport and checked the other two expansions often.
We kept the pressure on AS and soon began building up Xroads.
After we got Xroads, weve noticed a fade, so we tried to kill it, it blinked somewhere.
I told my men to get SA hive dead.
After SA was dead it was a cakewalk.
So: DO. NOT. LET. THEM. GET. A. 2ND. HIVE. Without fades, marines got a chance if they stick and be aware of traps.
with fades: run.
Fades shouldn't be showing up any earlier with RFK as they still depend on 2 hives - that should be the real bottleneck.
Not really. You have enough res to drop a hive at the start of the game (unlike NS1). You can also have several gorges help build the hive faster so it can construct in under 180 seconds (unlike NS1). The result is that you can have a second hive up in under 2 minutes, and fades shortly after.
Of course it IS early but that doesn't mean we should helplessly suffer balance problems until we have more game features in. Whenever possible, the game should be fun now, if not yet fully-featured. And changing numbers is certainly possible. So the relevant balance changes for 179 are as follows:
<b>Shotgun cost reduced from 25 to 15</b> (it was inflated from previous versions and NS1 and should help address the feelings of poverty on the marine side)
<b>Reduced Fade armor from 100 to 50</b> (translates to 20% less total "health" and should compensate for the fact that the Fades are now invulnerable while blinking, which wasn't the case in NS1...but it NS2 was using the health and armor values from NS1.)
<b>Reduced ARC cost from 25 to 20</b> (ARCs seem a bit rare and much of their cost is in the Robotics Factory. Pathing-related deaths are another reason for this change. Also note, all damage-dealing capabilities must cost personal res, not team res.)
<b>Fixed bug where Gorges could help speed building of hives</b> (should prevent Fades from showing up early)
<b>Lowered energy recuperation when on fire from 20% per second to 10% per second</b> (improves its "crippling" effect on Fades and others)
There are other changes too - we added Bile Bomb for Gorge (researchable by the comm and purchasable by Gorges) - but these are the ones that are germane to this thread.
Thanks for all the feedback everyone!
Only thing I don't understand is the ARC cost. Why must it require personal res? Sentry turrets do damage and cost team resources. The ARC is a team-based weapon and I don't see any reason not to make it cost team resources.