<!--quoteo(post=1851749:date=Jun 11 2011, 04:56 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 11 2011, 04:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851749"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, aliens need lerks, which cost about as much as a shotgunner, are available at the same time, and can combat them effectively. This is what is known as a counter.
Unless exosuits are going to be very cheap (and extremely effective) marines are going to need to spend a lot more than 50 res to beat a fade, and currently they don't have anything to combat them with except their non existant 2-1 numerical advantage, hence why I am suggesting a quick health slice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only thing is, this is NOT what most people are arguing. People are only arguing numbers of players, and that it takes 600 marines to kill a single fade. Whenever we try to argue spending a little res and using some teamwork to kill a fade, everyone gives a total kneejerk reaction that this is somehow unacceptable.
Fades cost 50 res, so if the marines have to spend 50 res or less on a few simple weapons (two shotguns, shotty + flamer), then by your logic, there's nothing wrong with this situation.
I don't know about you, but I would never take a lerk vs shotgun 1v1, it's still way too easy to get 1-or-2-shotted.
<!--quoteo(post=1851816:date=Jun 11 2011, 05:20 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Jun 11 2011, 05:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851816"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only thing is, this is NOT what most people are arguing. People are only arguing numbers of players, and that it takes 600 marines to kill a single fade. Whenever we try to argue spending a little res and using some teamwork to kill a fade, everyone gives a total kneejerk reaction that this is somehow unacceptable.
Fades cost 50 res, so if the marines have to spend 50 res or less on a few simple weapons (two shotguns, shotty + flamer), then by your logic, there's nothing wrong with this situation.
I don't know about you, but I would never take a lerk vs shotgun 1v1, it's still way too easy to get 1-or-2-shotted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, marines need to spend 50 res and 1 population cap.
i.e you need to stick 50 res worth of stuff on one marine, and that one marine should be able to kill the fade, maybe he has to work with another couple of marines, but if he does they should be able to kill three fades, because there are three marines with 50 res worth of stuff on each of them.
Otherwise you essentially have the aliens with vastly decreased population costs, which means that rather quickly, the game is going to hit the point where marines cannot muster the firepower required to beat the extremely powerful alien team, because they don't have enough players.
Lerks vs shotguns are interesting, on the one hand they are very easy to take out if the lerk is careful, but on the other hand they are very easy to die to if the lerk is careless. The snipe ability is absolute gold against shotguns, and spores work just as well on them as anything else. Similarly you can use your flight to kite the marines and stay out of effective shotgun range. Both have their strengths but both can kill each other quite easily, they're relatively well balanced against each other. It comes down to the skill of the operators. For example I'm perfectly confident facing shotgun marines as lerk in flight control on summit, because there are lots of little roof spaces you can hide in, and you can hit them before they can react. I wouldn't attack a base with it though, forefeits the advantage.
Whereas with fades I can simply blink about randomly and flail my claws and I kill three or four guys making a push into alien space on my own. About the only thing the fade can't do amazingly well is base assaults, and it's still better than any other class at it by virtue of its good damage and health.
Fades need a nerf. Even if only so that they can be balanced for the time being. That or cut shotgun prices so everyone can get them later on when fades are prevalent, as rifle marines are an utter joke no matter how well organised they are.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
My biggest annoyance is that arcs take personal resources to make. Got to the point where we had 500 team resources, a fully developed base, and we couldn't deploy a single arc.
Having arcs use team resources shouldn't be a problem with balance as the upcoming gorge bile bomb and the eventual onos should shred right through them.
<!--quoteo(post=1851821:date=Jun 11 2011, 12:44 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 11 2011, 12:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851821"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fades need a nerf. Even if only so that they can be balanced for the time being. That or cut shotgun prices so everyone can get them later on when fades are prevalent, as rifle marines are an utter joke no matter how well organised they are.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't think of a word that describes how worthless the rifle is, and sounds. Hardly worth aiming most of the time. Just hip-fire and spray like your life is meaningless and you know you'll be dead before the magazine runs out. Teamwork just means more ammo getting sprayed, and hopefully your gun fire will attract more marines then aliens. It feels like starship troopers, i.e. we have no tanks so lets just send waves of infantry.
The game i played last night lasted for hours, we had full upgrades and it was 7 marines getting owned by 4 aliens (1 lerk 3 fades), and WE LOST!!!!! I think maybe i got 4 shotguns and 1 FT that game? Personal res was at a standstill so i was mostly going out with a rifle. For some reason skulks and fades were instant killing me with one hit from full health.
Now's a good time to introduce acid-rockets for the fades + oni + bile-bomb for the entirely defenseless "melee" based aliens... meanwhile marines need nothing short of exosuits + miniguns to fight the fades, so maybe make those a tier-1 upgrade like shotguns? I doubt anyone will have the res to buy it so it should be balanced.
i think skulks losing leap in the early game (one hive) would help marines early game significantly and delay the fade rush that people are complaining about. it will put alien teams on their heels early and stop their personal res flood. giving marines an earlier map position and movement speed advantage will help balance the fade simply by providing marines with better weapons earlier.
Newest patch was great, things that I would like to see are momemtum for the fade blink (start with slight and increase if necessery). Faster strafe for marines and something kewl for the skulk.
Adding momentum and smoothing out the movement would increase game's overall quality by 30%.
<!--quoteo(post=1851840:date=Jun 11 2011, 08:15 PM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jun 11 2011, 08:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't think of a word that describes how worthless the rifle is, and sounds. Hardly worth aiming most of the time. Just hip-fire and spray like your life is meaningless and you know you'll be dead before the magazine runs out. Teamwork just means more ammo getting sprayed, and hopefully your gun fire will attract more marines then aliens. It feels like starship troopers, i.e. we have no tanks so lets just send waves of infantry.
The game i played last night lasted for hours, we had full upgrades and it was 7 marines getting owned by 4 aliens (1 lerk 3 fades), and WE LOST!!!!! I think maybe i got 4 shotguns and 1 FT that game? Personal res was at a standstill so i was mostly going out with a rifle. For some reason skulks and fades were instant killing me with one hit from full health.
Now's a good time to introduce acid-rockets for the fades + oni + bile-bomb for the entirely defenseless "melee" based aliens... meanwhile marines need nothing short of exosuits + miniguns to fight the fades, so maybe make those a tier-1 upgrade like shotguns? I doubt anyone will have the res to buy it so it should be balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
about the same as I feel with the balance of this patch. You have to be a master aimer and use clever positioning and teamwork to keep having/affording shotguns, yet alone flamethrowers. Then after the early game, you either hole up with turrets in your base or get bulldozed by the superman shocktrooper -fade, or both - no fun allowed. This is worst on Summit, and with not a lot of servers around playing the other maps when I want to play, Im going to wait for some kind of hotfix
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1851816:date=Jun 11 2011, 09:20 AM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Jun 11 2011, 09:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851816"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only thing is, this is NOT what most people are arguing. People are only arguing numbers of players, and that it takes 600 marines to kill a single fade. Whenever we try to argue spending a little res and using some teamwork to kill a fade, everyone gives a total kneejerk reaction that this is somehow unacceptable.
Fades cost 50 res, so if the marines have to spend 50 res or less on a few simple weapons (two shotguns, shotty + flamer), then by your logic, there's nothing wrong with this situation.
I don't know about you, but I would never take a lerk vs shotgun 1v1, it's still way too easy to get 1-or-2-shotted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except that it is trivially easy for me to cost the marines far more than 50 PRes with the fade. I was able to blink assassinate multiple marines with shotguns/grenade launchers/flamethrowers in marine start before dying using hit-and-run tactics. All it takes it killing two marines with better weapons to get a positive payback for the fade, and I'm regularly able to get 5-6 per life.
Also, the needing teamwork argument is only valid if its required for both sides. For example, say it took 2 marines to kill 1 fade. If the match was a 7v7, that means that only 3 fades are needed to tie up the <b>entire marine team</b> (excluding the comms). So what do the other 3 aliens do? They run around the map killing all of the now undefended structures because the entire marine team was busy trying to kill the 3 fades. If all 6 non-comm alien players are fades, then the marines are simply screwed. That's pretty much what Chris0132 and everyone else has been saying, that requiring teamwork only on the marine side is unbalanced.
<!--quoteo(post=1851852:date=Jun 11 2011, 02:32 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jun 11 2011, 02:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851852"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Except that it is trivially easy for me to cost the marines far more than 50 PRes with the fade. I was able to blink assassinate multiple marines with shotguns/grenade launchers/flamethrowers in marine start before dying using hit-and-run tactics. All it takes it killing two marines with better weapons to get a positive payback for the fade, and I'm regularly able to get 5-6 per life.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> pretty obvious this was a subpar team if youre killing advanced weaponry carring marines in MS. and they most like werent upgraded.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, the needing teamwork argument is only valid if its required for both sides.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> it is.. fades dont get upgrades without commanders, commanders cant upgrade without resources, which the aliens must defend. when youre playing fade who do you think is killing the marine resources.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For example, say it took 2 marines to kill 1 fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> this is really all it takes, in a perfect situation. you can set the mechanic to whatever you want, its up to the marine to execute properly. a arc can destroy a hive pretty quickly, but if the marine team cant get it there whos fault is that. one team will always be better than the other, no matter how much nerfing is put in to appease knee-jerkers.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the match was a 7v7, that means that only 3 fades are needed to tie up the <b>entire marine team</b> (excluding the comms).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> a poor marine team, yes. most times the "lone fade" has a lerk or gorge with it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So what do the other 3 aliens do? They run around the map killing all of the now undefended structures because the entire marine team was busy trying to kill the 3 fades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> thats part commanders fault for expanding too much and not able to hold areas, and the marine team fault for chasing fades, when they should be killing hives. set up forwarding areas (this is why i would prefer if the arc were droppable instead of this insanely slow tank thing. at least make it able to be phaseable).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If all 6 non-comm alien players are fades, then the marines are simply screwed. That's pretty much what Chris0132 and everyone else has been saying, that requiring teamwork only on the marine side is unbalanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but what you people bullheadingly dont understand is that since the marines dont have their full upgrades yet, the fade isnt overpowered. when marines get exosuits, the fade will be doing less hitting and a whole lot more running. also depending on how the jetpack functions the fade may not even be able to run fast enough to get away. and this is yet another reason i dont like alien commander, because the gorge role forced diversity on the aliens. the aliens dont expand without a gorge.
- and the last thing i dont get is, why dont you people understand that the larger the map the easier it is for aliens to hold the map. 7 on 7 on a large map spreads the marines out too thin. 12 on 12 would be great but servers cant handle it. optimal squads for marines to be fully able to expand, plus when they have their upgrades, fades vs miniguns? miniguns should rip the fade up. but then again thats something we will have to actually see in action.
i can guarantee you right now that fades will die more on smaller maps right now. marines dont have to sprint for 30 minues to get res
I wonder who the private playtesters are - they either are the worst alien players - or freaking aimbot marines, otherwise i cant understand how aliens could get so op + more buffs incoming. (or they dont really playtest, and only look for bugs)
- Di gives free Parasite (motion tracker => no sneaky phasegates or other suprises, arc etc.) - Di will lower sprint. (from 6 to 5.1, normal walking is 5 => sprint gets useless on di) - Every lifeform is viable, 75% of a game => lategame HA and JP will change that... but i doubt you can have jp or ha + a weapon like the minigun and all the pres to equip it as fast as you can get a 2nd hive and the 50pres for fade. - Grouping as marines isnt as good as it sounds on paper, 50% of your bullets will be blocked by your teammates - yay. - The drawback of melee vs. ranged is negated from start by free awesome movement abilitys on every lifeform. - The shotgun dmg nerf, while it didnt change much against skulks(but dont forget skulks is 0pres can go around the map 2times faster as a marine and only needs 3 hits => 1 leap and 2 bites => dead marine in 3s, thats 1-2 shotgun shots => pretty even 1on1 balance) - it did change a lot against the higher lifeforms. ...
Atm, all aliens have to do is: rush the 2nd hive and harrass as skulks as much as you can => if enough pres, everybody evolves into fade and rushs the marine base - game over. Works everytime.
<!--quoteo(post=1851862:date=Jun 11 2011, 09:17 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jun 11 2011, 09:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851862"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but what you people bullheadingly dont understand is that since the marines dont have their full upgrades yet, the fade isnt overpowered. when marines get exosuits, the fade will be doing less hitting and a whole lot more running.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Since marines don't have any way to counter the fade, it isn't overpowered."
Do I really need to explain how that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever?
It is precisely BECAUSE the marines don't have any of their stuff yet that the fade is hideously overpowered, there is no damn point saying it isn't overpowered because in the future it will be fixed, we aren't playing in the future, right now the fade is breaking the game, so take five minutes and slap a quick fix on it like a health cut to make the game playable again, then you can put it back when you eventually get round to adding some proper counters to it.
<!--quoteo(post=1851862:date=Jun 11 2011, 04:17 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jun 11 2011, 04:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851862"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but what you people bullheadingly dont understand is that since the marines dont have their full upgrades yet, the fade isnt overpowered. when marines get exosuits, the fade will be doing less hitting and a whole lot more running. also depending on how the jetpack functions the fade may not even be able to run fast enough to get away.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So your agreeing then that the aliens are OP. I mean you're saying that it requires a marine team with full map control in order to get the resources to research + continually afford the TOP tier marine weaponry (where right now it's hard enough to get Damage 1-3 and Armor 1-3), just to have a chance at fighting the aliens that show up minutes into the game. And naturally that "fair" fight will never occur unless aliens allow it to.
Just remember that aliens also didn't get their full upgrades yet, and from the looks of things i don't think exosuits and miniguns will be enough. Maybe mines and hand grenades will balance the game? lmao. EDIT: Where's my rifle silencer!!!11 xD
At least this patch stopped fades from blinking out of the map, and i'm sure alien rage quitting is at an all time low xD
<!--quoteo(post=1851126:date=Jun 9 2011, 01:40 PM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jun 9 2011, 01:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851126"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->balance? saying fade is overpowered without proving otherwise IS whining. balance at this stage is laughable as marines DONT HAVE ALL UPGRADES YET.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Weren't corridors twice as large in NS1 than they are now? Maybe that is harming the marines, as instead of shooting aliens your shooting your teammates.
<!--quoteo(post=1851862:date=Jun 12 2011, 06:17 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jun 12 2011, 06:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851862"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but what you people bullheadingly dont understand is that since the marines dont have their full upgrades yet, the fade isnt overpowered. when marines get exosuits, the fade will be doing less hitting and a whole lot more running.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And what YOU don't seem to be understanding is that Exosuits and Jetpacks aren't going to show up until the late game. It's the early game and midgame that Fades are ripping Marine teams apart and setting up the Alien team with a huge lead in resources and map control. Furthermore you also seem to forget that the Aliens don't have their end-game upgrade either: the Onos. The Alien team will be swimming in resources by the time late game comes around thanks to Fades, then it's just mass Onoses bulldozing your base. By contrast, because Fades shut down Marine expansion and map control so easily, a Marine team that even gets to late game tech is going to be starved for resources and unable to field more than a few pieces of high end gear.
you know, 1) if the aliens have a whole team of fades you know your doing something very wrong as marines. Sure, without jp's a comeback at this point is very difficult, but for that many fades to be on the field i think means the early/mid game was lost already. Whats not to say they wouldnt have onoses if they were in the game. 2) rifles are not useless. it takes roughly 50 bullets to kill a fade and realistically takes less to make the fade run away, although slight performance problems with the beta builds doesnt help. Fades have blink, meaning by design their mobility allows them to escape death unless you surprise shotgun them. Your all not thinking about the macro game where the main counter is pressure and firepower in forcing fades to timeout and hive heal. I sometimes feel like marines have forgotten that the real goal is to kill hives...
Sure i find fades hard to kill and frustrating too, but i think we should be using the opportunity to improve marine tactics and strategy in the early/mid game (i sincerely believe theres still alot of potential) instead of nerfing the challenge with the express point of making it easily beatable. Even without jp, we do have the tools as marines - lets work as a community to use them in making games more interesting and fun.
<!--quoteo(post=1851841:date=Jun 12 2011, 04:33 AM:name=Tig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tig @ Jun 12 2011, 04:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851841"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i think skulks losing leap in the early game (one hive) would help marines early game significantly and delay the fade rush that people are complaining about. it will put alien teams on their heels early and stop their personal res flood. giving marines an earlier map position and movement speed advantage will help balance the fade simply by providing marines with better weapons earlier.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like this, probably not with the current skulk move system though.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1851879:date=Jun 11 2011, 01:42 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jun 11 2011, 01:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851879"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->rifles are not useless. it takes roughly 50 bullets to kill a fade and realistically takes less to make the fade run away, although slight performance problems with the beta builds doesnt help. but i think we should be using the opportunity to improve marine tactics and strategy in the early/mid game (i sincerely believe theres still alot of potential) instead of nerfing the challenge with the express point of making it easily beatable. E<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
these two points i do agree with. *watches pivotal tracker*
I doubt it takes merely 50 bullets, seeing as most ppl who ran those tests forgot that fades usually get armor 3 (or atleast 2) pretty soon after the first player afford fade. Fades 200 armor makes this upgrade matter a lot!
I think the main problem against fades however, is how little pres marines get when the enemies start to get fades. Those fades often escape death by teleporting, and this means there is no rfk (or at least to low for a full marine team). I think that lowering cost of sg would help, but to battle fades successfully (as in actually kill them to make the alien lose pres on the evolve), marines need a flamethrower as well (so it cant escape in time), so its not enough.
The problem with your argument, VeNeM, is that: - The fade is a tier 2 lifeform. - Marines already have pretty much all of their tier 1 and tier 2 player-vs-player upgrades. - The aliens don't have all of their tier 1 and 2 player-vs-player upgrades. So the tier 2 aliens are going to get stronger, while the tier 2 marines aren't. Do you understand this?
I think that UWE should simply drop fade hit points (health and armour), and at the same time, drop shotgun damage.
Maybe give the aliens the toggleable ability to redirect damage to energy if they need the extra hit points, and can sacrifice their ability spam.
As I see it the new fade blink quite effectively gives the fade more hitpoints, especially against shotgunners.
Because shotguns have a fairly easy to predict fire rate, all you have to do is hit mouse2 when the next shot is due, and it will miss.
Because of this, you can safely drop fade hitpoints. They are already quite resistant to the few things that can reliably hit them, sentries and flamethrowers, and the reliance on energy to supplement the health bar means they will be more vulnerable to groups of marines with a flamethrower, as one flamer can light several fades on fire, the effectiveness scales quadratically the more fades are attacking, therefore balancing out the 1vs1 superiority of the fade.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2011
I think that the problem with the fades right now is that it cost no adrenaline/energy to go into blink-mode, it just slowly drains your adrenaline. If it cost a little (15%~ of max adrenaline, and then still slowly drain it like it does now) to go into blink-mode, it would balance out how easy it is to dodge a shotgun/whatever weapon. I think this would do the trick. Also, I won several games as the marine commander in B178. But only the games where I had some good players on my team that did what I told them to do. When I had bad players on my team, they would walk alone to whatever place they wanted, and we would lose. Even the current fade can be taken out by a decent squad(3+) of marines with the right weapon combo(shotgun, shotgun, flamethrower). It's all about; NOT to panic. You won't stand a chance in 1v1, exactly like NS1.
People crying about fades are pretty hysterical, brings back memories of NS1...
Let's face it, fades are actually worse than they were in NS1, most marines just suck since it's basically a new game. 3 marines with shotguns can easily take down a fade. The whole "but they have FIVE fades! what am I supposed to do about THAT" argument is SO lame, since marines <i>shouldn't let it get to that point in the first place!</i>
A big part of this problem is that most servers are having marines turret turtle like 1.4 and then wonder how they can't win when the aliens control half the map and have 4 fades.
Oh well, the crying makes the game enjoyable anyway.
Edit: Can you imagine if the current fade was in NS1? Walker fades everywhere!
<!--quoteo(post=1852036:date=Jun 12 2011, 10:56 AM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Jun 12 2011, 10:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The whole "but they have FIVE fades! what am I supposed to do about THAT" argument is SO lame, since marines <i>shouldn't let it get to that point in the first place!</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How?
Seriously how, the fades can easily avoid groups of 3 marines with shotguns, or anything else that poses a threat until they get reinforcements, you're basically saying that aliens should be really stupid and get killed a lot in order to make the game balanced.
Seriously how, the fades can easily avoid groups of 3 marines with shotguns, or anything else that poses a threat until they get reinforcements, you're basically saying that aliens should be really stupid and get killed a lot in order to make the game balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what you're saying is fades should ignore marines while they kill RTs/hives? How is it any different than NS1? In a standard 6v6 NS1 game fades would get obliterated by a group of marines unless they used hit/run tactics. If it were 3 marines with shotguns while second hive was going up, the fade would get absolutely destroyed if he tried to blink in. In NS2, the ability to quickly run in and hit a marine once or twice is gone. Instead, you have to blink in, walk around, then probably walk partially out and blink the rest of the way. It's a huge pain in the ass.
So again, tell me how it's any different than NS1?
Seriously how, the fades can easily avoid groups of 3 marines with shotguns, or anything else that poses a threat until they get reinforcements, you're basically saying that aliens should be really stupid and get killed a lot in order to make the game balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you cant avoid the shotgunning marines if their in your base stealing your hive
I do know however that in NS2, fades can skrimish quite effectively, they can quite easily pick off a couple of shotgun marines, three might be a challenge but you generally just have to avoid going right at them, try to scatter and separate them, or bring a lerk along or something. Certainly it's much easier if they're busy killing a harvester. I can do it easy and I'm not even very good at the game.
Also no, you can very easily get in, whack a couple of times, and get out, I do it all the time, you can drop almost right onto people, it's grand, although very annoying for the marine.
<!--quoteo(post=1852045:date=Jun 12 2011, 11:14 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jun 12 2011, 11:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852045"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you cant avoid the shotgunning marines if their in your base stealing your hive<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't need to, you're in a hive, they're busy, and the rest of the team is spawning in there. You know exactly where they are, how many there are, you have crags healing you, eggs spawning skulks, the hive occupying their attention, and probably some hydras/whips attacking them, a couple of fades can blunt almost any attack on a hive, the only challenge comes from ARCs which force the fades to surrender their home field advantage.
<!--quoteo(post=1852046:date=Jun 12 2011, 05:16 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 12 2011, 05:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852046"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dunno, hated ns1, haven't played it in years.
I do know however that in NS2, fades can skrimish quite effectively, they can quite easily pick off a couple of shotgun marines, three might be a challenge but you generally just have to avoid going right at them, try to scatter and separate them, or bring a lerk along or something. Certainly it's much easier if they're busy killing a harvester. I can do it easy and I'm not even very good at the game.
Also no, you can very easily get in, whack a couple of times, and get out, I do it all the time, you can drop almost right onto people, it's grand, although very annoying for the marine.
You don't need to, you're in a hive, they're busy, and the rest of the team is spawning in there. You know exactly where they are, how many there are, you have crags healing you, eggs spawning skulks, the hive occupying their attention, and probably some hydras/whips attacking them, a couple of fades can blunt almost any attack on a hive, the only challenge comes from ARCs which force the fades to surrender their home field advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Played against loads of marines, either everyone in the game is terrible at aiming or the basic ability of fades to blink around all over the place severely stretches the limits of human coordination.
Honestly it's pretty easy to find exploitable weaknesses as fade, especially once there's infestation around the place, you can very easily see where they're going and wait for them to find something else to be distracted by, then run in behind them and murder them, or precisely aim your blink so you land on their heads or something, the fade is incredibly powerful with the new blink, it lets them get into ideal positions very easily, so they don't really need as much health.
Comments
Unless exosuits are going to be very cheap (and extremely effective) marines are going to need to spend a lot more than 50 res to beat a fade, and currently they don't have anything to combat them with except their non existant 2-1 numerical advantage, hence why I am suggesting a quick health slice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only thing is, this is NOT what most people are arguing. People are only arguing numbers of players, and that it takes 600 marines to kill a single fade. Whenever we try to argue spending a little res and using some teamwork to kill a fade, everyone gives a total kneejerk reaction that this is somehow unacceptable.
Fades cost 50 res, so if the marines have to spend 50 res or less on a few simple weapons (two shotguns, shotty + flamer), then by your logic, there's nothing wrong with this situation.
I don't know about you, but I would never take a lerk vs shotgun 1v1, it's still way too easy to get 1-or-2-shotted.
Fades cost 50 res, so if the marines have to spend 50 res or less on a few simple weapons (two shotguns, shotty + flamer), then by your logic, there's nothing wrong with this situation.
I don't know about you, but I would never take a lerk vs shotgun 1v1, it's still way too easy to get 1-or-2-shotted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, marines need to spend 50 res and 1 population cap.
i.e you need to stick 50 res worth of stuff on one marine, and that one marine should be able to kill the fade, maybe he has to work with another couple of marines, but if he does they should be able to kill three fades, because there are three marines with 50 res worth of stuff on each of them.
Otherwise you essentially have the aliens with vastly decreased population costs, which means that rather quickly, the game is going to hit the point where marines cannot muster the firepower required to beat the extremely powerful alien team, because they don't have enough players.
Lerks vs shotguns are interesting, on the one hand they are very easy to take out if the lerk is careful, but on the other hand they are very easy to die to if the lerk is careless. The snipe ability is absolute gold against shotguns, and spores work just as well on them as anything else. Similarly you can use your flight to kite the marines and stay out of effective shotgun range. Both have their strengths but both can kill each other quite easily, they're relatively well balanced against each other. It comes down to the skill of the operators. For example I'm perfectly confident facing shotgun marines as lerk in flight control on summit, because there are lots of little roof spaces you can hide in, and you can hit them before they can react. I wouldn't attack a base with it though, forefeits the advantage.
Whereas with fades I can simply blink about randomly and flail my claws and I kill three or four guys making a push into alien space on my own. About the only thing the fade can't do amazingly well is base assaults, and it's still better than any other class at it by virtue of its good damage and health.
Fades need a nerf. Even if only so that they can be balanced for the time being. That or cut shotgun prices so everyone can get them later on when fades are prevalent, as rifle marines are an utter joke no matter how well organised they are.
Having arcs use team resources shouldn't be a problem with balance as the upcoming gorge bile bomb and the eventual onos should shred right through them.
I can't think of a word that describes how worthless the rifle is, and sounds. Hardly worth aiming most of the time. Just hip-fire and spray like your life is meaningless and you know you'll be dead before the magazine runs out. Teamwork just means more ammo getting sprayed, and hopefully your gun fire will attract more marines then aliens. It feels like starship troopers, i.e. we have no tanks so lets just send waves of infantry.
The game i played last night lasted for hours, we had full upgrades and it was 7 marines getting owned by 4 aliens (1 lerk 3 fades), and WE LOST!!!!! I think maybe i got 4 shotguns and 1 FT that game? Personal res was at a standstill so i was mostly going out with a rifle. For some reason skulks and fades were instant killing me with one hit from full health.
Now's a good time to introduce acid-rockets for the fades + oni + bile-bomb for the entirely defenseless "melee" based aliens... meanwhile marines need nothing short of exosuits + miniguns to fight the fades, so maybe make those a tier-1 upgrade like shotguns? I doubt anyone will have the res to buy it so it should be balanced.
Adding momentum and smoothing out the movement would increase game's overall quality by 30%.
The game i played last night lasted for hours, we had full upgrades and it was 7 marines getting owned by 4 aliens (1 lerk 3 fades), and WE LOST!!!!! I think maybe i got 4 shotguns and 1 FT that game? Personal res was at a standstill so i was mostly going out with a rifle. For some reason skulks and fades were instant killing me with one hit from full health.
Now's a good time to introduce acid-rockets for the fades + oni + bile-bomb for the entirely defenseless "melee" based aliens... meanwhile marines need nothing short of exosuits + miniguns to fight the fades, so maybe make those a tier-1 upgrade like shotguns? I doubt anyone will have the res to buy it so it should be balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
about the same as I feel with the balance of this patch. You have to be a master aimer and use clever positioning and teamwork to keep having/affording shotguns, yet alone flamethrowers. Then after the early game, you either hole up with turrets in your base or get bulldozed by the superman shocktrooper -fade, or both - no fun allowed.
This is worst on Summit, and with not a lot of servers around playing the other maps when I want to play, Im going to wait for some kind of hotfix
Fades cost 50 res, so if the marines have to spend 50 res or less on a few simple weapons (two shotguns, shotty + flamer), then by your logic, there's nothing wrong with this situation.
I don't know about you, but I would never take a lerk vs shotgun 1v1, it's still way too easy to get 1-or-2-shotted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except that it is trivially easy for me to cost the marines far more than 50 PRes with the fade. I was able to blink assassinate multiple marines with shotguns/grenade launchers/flamethrowers in marine start before dying using hit-and-run tactics. All it takes it killing two marines with better weapons to get a positive payback for the fade, and I'm regularly able to get 5-6 per life.
Also, the needing teamwork argument is only valid if its required for both sides. For example, say it took 2 marines to kill 1 fade. If the match was a 7v7, that means that only 3 fades are needed to tie up the <b>entire marine team</b> (excluding the comms). So what do the other 3 aliens do? They run around the map killing all of the now undefended structures because the entire marine team was busy trying to kill the 3 fades. If all 6 non-comm alien players are fades, then the marines are simply screwed. That's pretty much what Chris0132 and everyone else has been saying, that requiring teamwork only on the marine side is unbalanced.
pretty obvious this was a subpar team if youre killing advanced weaponry carring marines in MS. and they most like werent upgraded.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, the needing teamwork argument is only valid if its required for both sides.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it is.. fades dont get upgrades without commanders, commanders cant upgrade without resources, which the aliens must defend. when youre playing fade who do you think is killing the marine resources.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For example, say it took 2 marines to kill 1 fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is really all it takes, in a perfect situation. you can set the mechanic to whatever you want, its up to the marine to execute properly. a arc can destroy a hive pretty quickly, but if the marine team cant get it there whos fault is that. one team will always be better than the other, no matter how much nerfing is put in to appease knee-jerkers.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the match was a 7v7, that means that only 3 fades are needed to tie up the <b>entire marine team</b> (excluding the comms).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a poor marine team, yes. most times the "lone fade" has a lerk or gorge with it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So what do the other 3 aliens do? They run around the map killing all of the now undefended structures because the entire marine team was busy trying to kill the 3 fades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats part commanders fault for expanding too much and not able to hold areas, and the marine team fault for chasing fades, when they should be killing hives. set up forwarding areas (this is why i would prefer if the arc were droppable instead of this insanely slow tank thing. at least make it able to be phaseable).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If all 6 non-comm alien players are fades, then the marines are simply screwed. That's pretty much what Chris0132 and everyone else has been saying, that requiring teamwork only on the marine side is unbalanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but what you people bullheadingly dont understand is that since the marines dont have their full upgrades yet, the fade isnt overpowered. when marines get exosuits, the fade will be doing less hitting and a whole lot more running. also depending on how the jetpack functions the fade may not even be able to run fast enough to get away. and this is yet another reason i dont like alien commander, because the gorge role forced diversity on the aliens. the aliens dont expand without a gorge.
- and the last thing i dont get is, why dont you people understand that the larger the map the easier it is for aliens to hold the map. 7 on 7 on a large map spreads the marines out too thin. 12 on 12 would be great but servers cant handle it. optimal squads for marines to be fully able to expand, plus when they have their upgrades, fades vs miniguns? miniguns should rip the fade up. but then again thats something we will have to actually see in action.
i can guarantee you right now that fades will die more on smaller maps right now. marines dont have to sprint for 30 minues to get res
- Di gives free Parasite (motion tracker => no sneaky phasegates or other suprises, arc etc.)
- Di will lower sprint. (from 6 to 5.1, normal walking is 5 => sprint gets useless on di)
- Every lifeform is viable, 75% of a game => lategame HA and JP will change that... but i doubt you can have jp or ha + a weapon like the minigun and all the pres to equip it as fast as you can get a 2nd hive and the 50pres for fade.
- Grouping as marines isnt as good as it sounds on paper, 50% of your bullets will be blocked by your teammates - yay.
- The drawback of melee vs. ranged is negated from start by free awesome movement abilitys on every lifeform.
- The shotgun dmg nerf, while it didnt change much against skulks(but dont forget skulks is 0pres can go around the map 2times faster as a marine and only needs 3 hits => 1 leap and 2 bites => dead marine in 3s, thats 1-2 shotgun shots => pretty even 1on1 balance) - it did change a lot against the higher lifeforms.
...
Atm, all aliens have to do is: rush the 2nd hive and harrass as skulks as much as you can => if enough pres, everybody evolves into fade and rushs the marine base - game over. Works everytime.
"Since marines don't have any way to counter the fade, it isn't overpowered."
Do I really need to explain how that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever?
It is precisely BECAUSE the marines don't have any of their stuff yet that the fade is hideously overpowered, there is no damn point saying it isn't overpowered because in the future it will be fixed, we aren't playing in the future, right now the fade is breaking the game, so take five minutes and slap a quick fix on it like a health cut to make the game playable again, then you can put it back when you eventually get round to adding some proper counters to it.
So your agreeing then that the aliens are OP. I mean you're saying that it requires a marine team with full map control in order to get the resources to research + continually afford the TOP tier marine weaponry (where right now it's hard enough to get Damage 1-3 and Armor 1-3), just to have a chance at fighting the aliens that show up minutes into the game. And naturally that "fair" fight will never occur unless aliens allow it to.
Just remember that aliens also didn't get their full upgrades yet, and from the looks of things i don't think exosuits and miniguns will be enough. Maybe mines and hand grenades will balance the game? lmao. EDIT: Where's my rifle silencer!!!11 xD
At least this patch stopped fades from blinking out of the map, and i'm sure alien rage quitting is at an all time low xD
Dude, 3 words:
Beta
Opinions
Internet
Calm down.
And what YOU don't seem to be understanding is that Exosuits and Jetpacks aren't going to show up until the late game. It's the early game and midgame that Fades are ripping Marine teams apart and setting up the Alien team with a huge lead in resources and map control. Furthermore you also seem to forget that the Aliens don't have their end-game upgrade either: the Onos. The Alien team will be swimming in resources by the time late game comes around thanks to Fades, then it's just mass Onoses bulldozing your base. By contrast, because Fades shut down Marine expansion and map control so easily, a Marine team that even gets to late game tech is going to be starved for resources and unable to field more than a few pieces of high end gear.
1) if the aliens have a whole team of fades you know your doing something very wrong as marines. Sure, without jp's a comeback at this point is very difficult, but for that many fades to be on the field i think means the early/mid game was lost already. Whats not to say they wouldnt have onoses if they were in the game.
2) rifles are not useless. it takes roughly 50 bullets to kill a fade and realistically takes less to make the fade run away, although slight performance problems with the beta builds doesnt help.
Fades have blink, meaning by design their mobility allows them to escape death unless you surprise shotgun them. Your all not thinking about the macro game where the main counter is pressure and firepower in forcing fades to timeout and hive heal. I sometimes feel like marines have forgotten that the real goal is to kill hives...
Sure i find fades hard to kill and frustrating too, but i think we should be using the opportunity to improve marine tactics and strategy in the early/mid game (i sincerely believe theres still alot of potential) instead of nerfing the challenge with the express point of making it easily beatable. Even without jp, we do have the tools as marines - lets work as a community to use them in making games more interesting and fun.
Like this, probably not with the current skulk move system though.
but i think we should be using the opportunity to improve marine tactics and strategy in the early/mid game (i sincerely believe theres still alot of potential) instead of nerfing the challenge with the express point of making it easily beatable. E<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
these two points i do agree with. *watches pivotal tracker*
I think the main problem against fades however, is how little pres marines get when the enemies start to get fades. Those fades often escape death by teleporting, and this means there is no rfk (or at least to low for a full marine team).
I think that lowering cost of sg would help, but to battle fades successfully (as in actually kill them to make the alien lose pres on the evolve), marines need a flamethrower as well (so it cant escape in time), so its not enough.
- The fade is a tier 2 lifeform.
- Marines already have pretty much all of their tier 1 and tier 2 player-vs-player upgrades.
- The aliens don't have all of their tier 1 and 2 player-vs-player upgrades.
So the tier 2 aliens are going to get stronger, while the tier 2 marines aren't. Do you understand this?
I think that UWE should simply drop fade hit points (health and armour), and at the same time, drop shotgun damage.
Maybe give the aliens the toggleable ability to redirect damage to energy if they need the extra hit points, and can sacrifice their ability spam.
Because shotguns have a fairly easy to predict fire rate, all you have to do is hit mouse2 when the next shot is due, and it will miss.
Because of this, you can safely drop fade hitpoints. They are already quite resistant to the few things that can reliably hit them, sentries and flamethrowers, and the reliance on energy to supplement the health bar means they will be more vulnerable to groups of marines with a flamethrower, as one flamer can light several fades on fire, the effectiveness scales quadratically the more fades are attacking, therefore balancing out the 1vs1 superiority of the fade.
If it cost a little (15%~ of max adrenaline, and then still slowly drain it like it does now) to go into blink-mode, it would balance out how easy it is to dodge a shotgun/whatever weapon. I think this would do the trick.
Also, I won several games as the marine commander in B178. But only the games where I had some good players on my team that did what I told them to do. When I had bad players on my team, they would walk alone to whatever place they wanted, and we would lose.
Even the current fade can be taken out by a decent squad(3+) of marines with the right weapon combo(shotgun, shotgun, flamethrower). It's all about; NOT to panic. You won't stand a chance in 1v1, exactly like NS1.
Let's face it, fades are actually worse than they were in NS1, most marines just suck since it's basically a new game. 3 marines with shotguns can easily take down a fade. The whole "but they have FIVE fades! what am I supposed to do about THAT" argument is SO lame, since marines <i>shouldn't let it get to that point in the first place!</i>
A big part of this problem is that most servers are having marines turret turtle like 1.4 and then wonder how they can't win when the aliens control half the map and have 4 fades.
Oh well, the crying makes the game enjoyable anyway.
Edit: Can you imagine if the current fade was in NS1? Walker fades everywhere!
How?
Seriously how, the fades can easily avoid groups of 3 marines with shotguns, or anything else that poses a threat until they get reinforcements, you're basically saying that aliens should be really stupid and get killed a lot in order to make the game balanced.
Seriously how, the fades can easily avoid groups of 3 marines with shotguns, or anything else that poses a threat until they get reinforcements, you're basically saying that aliens should be really stupid and get killed a lot in order to make the game balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what you're saying is fades should ignore marines while they kill RTs/hives? How is it any different than NS1? In a standard 6v6 NS1 game fades would get obliterated by a group of marines unless they used hit/run tactics. If it were 3 marines with shotguns while second hive was going up, the fade would get absolutely destroyed if he tried to blink in. In NS2, the ability to quickly run in and hit a marine once or twice is gone. Instead, you have to blink in, walk around, then probably walk partially out and blink the rest of the way. It's a huge pain in the ass.
So again, tell me how it's any different than NS1?
Seriously how, the fades can easily avoid groups of 3 marines with shotguns, or anything else that poses a threat until they get reinforcements, you're basically saying that aliens should be really stupid and get killed a lot in order to make the game balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you cant avoid the shotgunning marines if their in your base stealing your hive
I do know however that in NS2, fades can skrimish quite effectively, they can quite easily pick off a couple of shotgun marines, three might be a challenge but you generally just have to avoid going right at them, try to scatter and separate them, or bring a lerk along or something. Certainly it's much easier if they're busy killing a harvester. I can do it easy and I'm not even very good at the game.
Also no, you can very easily get in, whack a couple of times, and get out, I do it all the time, you can drop almost right onto people, it's grand, although very annoying for the marine.
<!--quoteo(post=1852045:date=Jun 12 2011, 11:14 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jun 12 2011, 11:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852045"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you cant avoid the shotgunning marines if their in your base stealing your hive<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't need to, you're in a hive, they're busy, and the rest of the team is spawning in there. You know exactly where they are, how many there are, you have crags healing you, eggs spawning skulks, the hive occupying their attention, and probably some hydras/whips attacking them, a couple of fades can blunt almost any attack on a hive, the only challenge comes from ARCs which force the fades to surrender their home field advantage.
I do know however that in NS2, fades can skrimish quite effectively, they can quite easily pick off a couple of shotgun marines, three might be a challenge but you generally just have to avoid going right at them, try to scatter and separate them, or bring a lerk along or something. Certainly it's much easier if they're busy killing a harvester. I can do it easy and I'm not even very good at the game.
Also no, you can very easily get in, whack a couple of times, and get out, I do it all the time, you can drop almost right onto people, it's grand, although very annoying for the marine.
You don't need to, you're in a hive, they're busy, and the rest of the team is spawning in there. You know exactly where they are, how many there are, you have crags healing you, eggs spawning skulks, the hive occupying their attention, and probably some hydras/whips attacking them, a couple of fades can blunt almost any attack on a hive, the only challenge comes from ARCs which force the fades to surrender their home field advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... Play against marines that can aim.
Honestly it's pretty easy to find exploitable weaknesses as fade, especially once there's infestation around the place, you can very easily see where they're going and wait for them to find something else to be distracted by, then run in behind them and murder them, or precisely aim your blink so you land on their heads or something, the fade is incredibly powerful with the new blink, it lets them get into ideal positions very easily, so they don't really need as much health.