<!--quoteo(post=1860644:date=Jul 14 2011, 11:17 AM:name=Agiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agiel @ Jul 14 2011, 11:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860644"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While I'm still of the opinion that marines should either not be able to fire while in the air or have a jump cooldown after landing, it seems the discussion has shifted away from marine jump spam to alien bunny hopping so let me say something about that.
I was totally for alien bunny hopping in NS1 and I'd very much like to see a skill based movement scheme in NS2. However, bunny hopping in NS1 made sense back then because Quake was still a very popular game and a lot of people knew how to bunny hop. Nowadays I'd much rather like to see a more thought out system designed from the ground up. I'd propose the following.
First off I'd like them to make the basic jump behaviour more like Quake, ie. still one click per jump but holding the jump button down makes you jump as soon as you land without losing any speed. This way we won't need to bind jump to the mouse wheel and I wouldn't have to buy new mice every other month.
Now I'm not a huge fan of air control for creatures without wings so instead I propose something like dash/dodge from Warsow. It's basically a low jump which propels you in the direction you're facing with your current speed. Combine this with leap and you'd also gain a bit of speed.
Here's an example of how it would work in practice. To get some speed you start off with a leap. In order to retain the speed you need to avoid ground friction by jumping as soon as you hit the ground (made easier by the ability to press and hold the jump button before you land). To change direction you use leap again. For each leap you'd gain a bit of speed (presumably up to a limit).
To promote the use of the environment a normal jump off a wall would bounce you off it like a billiard ball, so with some practice you wouldn't need to use leap to take corners. There could also be a speed penalty if the angle is too large when trying to change direction, so you'd have to use walls in certain situations. For example, you wouldn't be able to turn on a dime on a flat surface, but jump towards a wall, hold crouch to avoid sticking to it, press and hold jump (or leap and aim where you want to go) and you'd fly away in the opposite direction while retaining the speed.
Edit: Reworked the examples a bit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These are the kind of ideas we need to focus on. Great post.
<!--quoteo(post=1860612:date=Jul 14 2011, 04:59 AM:name=Taxen0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Taxen0 @ Jul 14 2011, 04:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860612"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this sounds good, and I'm all for it. It's a simple "press button x and you get outcome Y" so anyone can do it, but not everyone will be able too do it well.
Some of the bhop promoters will however say: "But! then new players will be able to pick up the controls quickly and will take more than 3 seconds to kill, I want my advantage!" or some nonsense about "skill". (the true skill in ns1 is not the act of bhopping, it's deciding where to jump/run depending of what's happening around you.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Let me put this in simple terms: <b>You cannot have a complex system of movement without an accordingly complex set of controls.</b> You can't have a single, simple bhop key because bhopping isn't a single motion, it's a series of motions put together. Moreover, there shouldn't be a bhop key any more than there should be a jump and attack key. You claim to want "combos", and when I point out that bhop IS a combo, your response is "Well, then let's get rid of it!". I'm seeing a bit of projection here: Perhaps you're so adamantly against bhopping because you can't do it?
<!--quoteo(post=1860621:date=Jul 14 2011, 05:32 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jul 14 2011, 05:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860621"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Taken out of context. Finish the sentence. "A person who plays less shouldn't be disadvantaged - shouldn't have less options - <b>just because he hasn't learned the right pattern of key-presses to do a super-move.</b>" Re-start your argument with this in mind.
<i>(Btw, bunnyhopping is not a super-move, I was just using a broad example. It is, however, a "skill move".)</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So teach it to them. Include it in a tutorial or something.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem isn't that it's something difficult, but what that "something difficult" actually is. That "something difficult" is like... let's use the idea of exams. Most exams outside of mathematics-heavy units don't actually test concepts, proficiency or understanding, but simply rote memorisation (exams reward rote memorisation, with grades). In what way is rote memorisation actually beneficial? Will it make a student better at their work than someone else who uses infallible references? (And are they even going to remember anything afterwards?) Do exams reward what they should reward - proficiency and understanding? No. The same applies to bunnyhopping. It's unnecessary and misdirected, so you're <b>rewarding the wrong thing</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Who the ###### are you to decide what should be rewarded? Once again I point out that NS2 is a <b>First Person Shooter</b>. Aim and movements are core concepts to the genre.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From the "article" that was linked, the actual in-game benefit from bunnyhopping is speed* ("strafing in the air gives you acceleration") - the extra speed leads to more options (the real benefit). But obviously, the goal is more options, and if you want more speed, then you can just <b>add more speed</b>. <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->Instead people <b><u>arbitrarily</u></b> want a "<i>skill move</i>",<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> even though it adds very little to the game, while detracting from other aspects.
*Perhaps bunnyhopping is more than that, but no one thus far has managed to explain how.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Haha, no. For one thing, if you increased base speed and took out acceleration from air strafing (Which is not a trivial task), people would still "bunnyhop" because it lets you make jumps in elevation while retaining your speed, have a method of approach that actually allows you to move in not a straight line, etc. Then you'd have to deal with the implications of faster movement while wallwalking, through vents, in close combat, etc. You could toss in delays between jumps or reductions in consecutive jump height, but then players would have less options navigating terrain and marines would be even more disadvantaged in close combat.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And I did in fact come up with a variety of ideas, but they were lost in TrC's rage against my perfectly reasonable argument for why bunnyhopping is a poor input method, and then the subsequent "debate". I don't remember what page it was on.
An absolute reliance on technical skill does not in fact raise the skill ceiling (contrary to "that argument") - the skill ceiling (the maximum degree to which you affect the game) is the <b>same height</b>, the <u>skill floor</u> is just <b>much lower</b>.
<i>(You might have a different definition of "skill ceiling" - a purer definition, but that's really just the difference between the skill floor and the skill ceiling. What really matters is how much your skill allows you to affect the game.)</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You did in fact come up with a variety of ideas, all of them ###### terrible.
<!--quoteo(post=1860653:date=Jul 14 2011, 06:10 PM:name=wulf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wulf @ Jul 14 2011, 06:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860653"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->unique combination of strafe jump/wall walk/walljump has allowed for some of the damn nicest skulks I've ever seen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played skulks like the drones in the alien movies and scared some people out of the game with it I think. one even wrote "i seriously fell out of my chair" when I kicked his ass.
If it wouldn't look like a super bouncy ball in a car driving over a hole-riddled street (boingboingboingboingetc), it'd be okay with bunny hopping, but it does. And jumpspam to avoid skulkattacks is just lame.
I for one would like to move from NS1 to NS2 and leave such 'mechanics' like bhop behind.
To end the jump spam simply make Marines more mobile (back-peddle should work) and restrict jumping to 'x' times before fatigue kicks in thus disabling jump for a short time.
Also make Aliens move faster by default.
Both teams remain highly mobile and jump spam is taken out of the picture.
Please, pretty please, with artificial sugar and icing on top, <b>do not take away the ability to fire my weapon whilst jumping in the air</b>.
Nothing gets me more excited than being ambushed by a skulk, completely freaking out, trying to dodge his attacks by jumping away whilst frantically emptying my clip into the floor/walls/ceiling. Because, lets face it, how often do you actually hit anything when doing this. And if you do, more power to you.
Also, I haven't played NS2 for quite some versions now, but this discussion seemed to have more validity when games were laggy as hell. Now that it's more or less playable (speculation, but I'm guessing....) once that skulk is on you, if he's any decent, jump spam or not, you're going down brother.
<!--quoteo(post=1860681:date=Jul 15 2011, 02:59 AM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Underwhelmed @ Jul 15 2011, 02:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860681"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let me put this in simple terms: <b>You cannot have a complex system of movement without an accordingly complex set of controls.</b> You can't have a single, simple bhop key because bhopping isn't a single motion, it's a series of motions put together. Moreover, there shouldn't be a bhop key any more than there should be a jump and attack key. You claim to want "combos", and when I point out that bhop IS a combo, your response is "Well, then let's get rid of it!". I'm seeing a bit of projection here: Perhaps you're so adamantly against bhopping because you can't do it?
So teach it to them. Include it in a tutorial or something.
Who the ###### are you to decide what should be rewarded? Once again I point out that NS2 is a <b>First Person Shooter</b>. Aim and movements are core concepts to the genre.
Haha, no. For one thing, if you increased base speed and took out acceleration from air strafing (Which is not a trivial task), people would still "bunnyhop" because it lets you make jumps in elevation while retaining your speed, have a method of approach that actually allows you to move in not a straight line, etc. Then you'd have to deal with the implications of faster movement while wallwalking, through vents, in close combat, etc. You could toss in delays between jumps or reductions in consecutive jump height, but then players would have less options navigating terrain and marines would be even more disadvantaged in close combat.
You did in fact come up with a variety of ideas, all of them ###### terrible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Calm down, be reasonable, then start again.
<!--quoteo(post=1860765:date=Jul 14 2011, 10:10 PM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Jul 14 2011, 10:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860765"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it wouldn't look like a super bouncy ball in a car driving over a hole-riddled street (boingboingboingboingetc), it'd be okay with bunny hopping, but it does. And jumpspam to avoid skulkattacks is just lame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not arguing for marine jump spam. Aliens need the skill movement, and as of now (which has almost been beaten into the ground) bunnyhop was the best way to add that extra dimension to movement and air control. Even the devs have admitted it was a feature in the game because there was no better replacement, and still there is not. Nothing is going to mimic real world physics in a video game when your only input methods are mouse and keyboard.
Why not just go Wolfenstein and make an exhaustion meter? Sprinting runs it down, jumping runs it down, and when it's out you can't sprint (or possibly jump) until it refills.
<!--quoteo(post=1860681:date=Jul 14 2011, 08:59 PM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Underwhelmed @ Jul 14 2011, 08:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860681"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let me put this in simple terms: <b>You cannot have a complex system of movement without an accordingly complex set of controls.</b> You can't have a single, simple bhop key because bhopping isn't a single motion, it's a series of motions put together. Moreover, there shouldn't be a bhop key any more than there should be a jump and attack key.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As made evident by games like Painkiller it's perfectly possible to have a simple and intuitive bunny hop system without losing any gameplay complexity. Sure, bunny hopping is a lot easier to both learn and master in PK than in Quake, but being able to move fast doesn't automatically put you on par with Fatal1ty. In a way this discussion reminds me of multiple building selection and auto mining in SC2. Sure they make macro easier, but there's so much other stuff to think about and do right that it doesn't actually affect the overall complexity of the game. All it does is shift the focus to more (in my view) important aspects of the game, and most importantly, it makes the game easier to get into.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So teach it to them. Include it in a tutorial or something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Having an overly complex and unintuitive movement system as an obstacle that new players <b>have</b> to overcome before they can play the game proficiently will undoubtedly put people off. The system I presented on the last page is very simple and intutive (in its simplest form it's just a change in the leap mechanic), and easy to learn, yet can lead to very complex movement patterns once mastered.
<!--quoteo(post=1861168:date=Jul 17 2011, 12:56 PM:name=Agiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agiel @ Jul 17 2011, 12:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861168"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having an overly complex and unintuitive movement system as an obstacle that new players <b>have</b> to overcome before they can play the game proficiently will undoubtedly put people off. The system I presented on the last page is very simple and intutive (in its simplest form it's just a change in the leap mechanic), and easy to learn, yet can lead to very complex movement patterns once mastered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You do realize that if bunnyhop would be implimented it would not be implimented the same way, ultimately it would be a different version of the bunnyhop. I would not call it overly complex either, once you get the basics it is as fluent as your mother language the problem is how to get to those basics without stressing new players too much.
I dont think you can make a skillbased movement system for NS2 without momentum, accerelation and air control.
<!--quoteo(post=1861175:date=Jul 17 2011, 01:30 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 17 2011, 01:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861175"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You do realize that if bunnyhop would be implimented it would not be implimented the same way, ultimately it would be a different version of the bunnyhop. I would not call it overly complex either, once you get the basics it is as fluent as your mother language the problem is how to get to those basics without stressing new players too much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, thank you, I do. Which is exactly why I'm trying to shift the discussion towards new ideas on how to implement bunny hopping in more intuitive ways. I think we're on the same page here. I'm arguing that a simpler bunny hopping mechanic wouldn't necessarily "lower the skill ceiling" as some people here seem to suggest.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont think you can make a skillbased movement system for NS2 without momentum, accerelation and air control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In the system I proposed odd strafe and mouse gestures to gain speed are replaced with a single button (leap) and invisible wings for air control are replaced with that same single button in combination with wall bounces. Mind you, I'm not saying we should get rid of air control entirely; a level similar to Quake 3 should be fine.
Honestly i think a meter might be the best way to go for both sides.
For marines it would prevent CONSTANT sprinting or jumping
For aliens it could allow a little speed boost to running / walking speed, or possibly a slightly longer leap by holding left Alt or something (just SOMETHING which isn't bhop, but will finally stop the same 50 players still moaning about it from requesting it 50 times a day)
I think bhop is very unintuitive to learn, and anyone who has tried to teach it should know this.
Agiel and TrC you might be on the same page but a lot of people are not. If a person does not have intuitive understanding what a skill-based movement systems matters for a game like NS, then its hard to tell them otherwise.
I think puzl had good ideas how to make bhop more easier to learn, that is make "badly executed" bhop give decent speed boost and dimnishing gains with more perfect execution. And remove the forward key prohibition, its very unintuitive to not to use forward key when going forward. Also queued jumps would help a lot, then you don't need a mousewheel or a stupid script.
My recommendation is to do those three things before considering a completely different system with likely less depth. Best idea is to implement that and ask some new guys to learn it and see how fast they catch up.
But you have to understand, NS1 movement is not just the bhop, its the whole gravity / movement code that would have to be ported.
Just take what bhop grants you (air control, rapid change in momentum, some increase in speed, etc) and have those properties increased when you mash the "move special" key. Change it up based on lifeform (for marines it's basically a sprint with minimal adjustments to the other two, whereas skulks get a noticeable increase in air control and momentum redirection). Take out the unintuitive "jump and wiggle, you gotta learn to do this weird dance that some people don't even know about" part of bhop, make the mechanical benefits coded in, and I'm fine with it.
Day of Defeat: Source like stamina bar. If you sprint for long durations, your default walk speed is slower. To get the speed back, they have to wait for the stamina bar to re fill.
<!--quoteo(post=1861405:date=Jul 18 2011, 08:21 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Jul 18 2011, 08:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861405"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's not really skill-based either. At most you could say it requires timing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> CoD style jumping? When you jump too much, you end up jumping less than 1 feet.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
Timing is a skill.
Always made me wonder why something simple as marine movement needed a high skill ceiling. Couldn't you just move in tactical formations. Covering each other? Teamwork is a pretty cool skill.
<!--quoteo(post=1861407:date=Jul 18 2011, 03:34 PM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Jul 18 2011, 03:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861407"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Timing is a skill.
Always made me wonder why something simple as marine movement needed a high skill ceiling. Couldn't you just move in tactical formations. Covering each other? Teamwork is a pretty cool skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Timing as a skill is nothing to be sneered at (personally I'm pretty proud of not really needing a jump script or binding mwheel to +jump to do ok at bunnyhopping), but not enough on its own.
But it's not marine movement that needs to take skill, as marines are indeed supposed to rely more on teamwork than individual skill - it's the alien team that's of primary interest when it comes to skill-based movement. So a stamina bar can be a perfectly valid suggestion, just don't call it skill-based movement.
<!--quoteo(post=1861414:date=Jul 18 2011, 04:14 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Jul 18 2011, 04:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861414"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So a stamina bar can be a perfectly valid suggestion, just don't call it skill-based movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jumping makes combat more dynamic and skulks should be fast enough to be able to land bites if you can maneuver decently. If it turns out to be a problem don't take away from marine gameplay, instead buff skulk speed.
I don't understand how after 18 pages people can still argue that jump spam shouldn't be nerfed because it's part of the "gameplay". It may well be, but it's a <b>bad</b> part of the gameplay and we're better of without it.
That being said, I'm now leaning more and more towards the idea of a short jump cooldown after you land (accompanied by view bobbing as feedback). The cooldown only needs to be long enough to make the animations not look silly and should present enough of a window for the skulks to easier land a hit if they can predict where you're going to land.
I feel that any sort of stamina system will be too restrictive. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, it's very frustrating to run out of stamina and not be able to jump or dodge. That's also the reason why I'm not a big fan of slowdown on hit. It's fine for melee attacks because by the time you got hit you already missed your opportunity to dodge, however for ranged attacks what you want to do is try to get behind cover while you're being shot at, and when the slowdown prevents you from doing that and you die, well, let's just say it's moments like those that make people rage quit.
<!--quoteo(post=1861440:date=Jul 18 2011, 09:01 PM:name=Agiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agiel @ Jul 18 2011, 09:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861440"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you baiting? Nobody here is supporting jump spam, you are apparently mistaking bunnyhop for a jump spam.
The thread kind of leveled up to bunnyhopping a certain point.
/edit Apparently, completely disregarded his post and mistook you quoting someone else.
The first paragraph was targeted at GrapeVine. I swear you're misinterpreting me on purpose. Did you actually read any of my posts or just the first lines?
<!--quoteo(post=1861416:date=Jul 18 2011, 04:24 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jul 18 2011, 04:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861416"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No one did.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, my bad... It was sort of implied by the context, especially when Uzrbital didn't correct me.
Comments
I was totally for alien bunny hopping in NS1 and I'd very much like to see a skill based movement scheme in NS2. However, bunny hopping in NS1 made sense back then because Quake was still a very popular game and a lot of people knew how to bunny hop. Nowadays I'd much rather like to see a more thought out system designed from the ground up. I'd propose the following.
First off I'd like them to make the basic jump behaviour more like Quake, ie. still one click per jump but holding the jump button down makes you jump as soon as you land without losing any speed. This way we won't need to bind jump to the mouse wheel and I wouldn't have to buy new mice every other month.
Now I'm not a huge fan of air control for creatures without wings so instead I propose something like dash/dodge from Warsow. It's basically a low jump which propels you in the direction you're facing with your current speed. Combine this with leap and you'd also gain a bit of speed.
Here's an example of how it would work in practice. To get some speed you start off with a leap. In order to retain the speed you need to avoid ground friction by jumping as soon as you hit the ground (made easier by the ability to press and hold the jump button before you land). To change direction you use leap again. For each leap you'd gain a bit of speed (presumably up to a limit).
To promote the use of the environment a normal jump off a wall would bounce you off it like a billiard ball, so with some practice you wouldn't need to use leap to take corners. There could also be a speed penalty if the angle is too large when trying to change direction, so you'd have to use walls in certain situations. For example, you wouldn't be able to turn on a dime on a flat surface, but jump towards a wall, hold crouch to avoid sticking to it, press and hold jump (or leap and aim where you want to go) and you'd fly away in the opposite direction while retaining the speed.
Edit: Reworked the examples a bit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These are the kind of ideas we need to focus on. Great post.
Some of the bhop promoters will however say: "But! then new players will be able to pick up the controls quickly and will take more than 3 seconds to kill, I want my advantage!" or some nonsense about "skill". (the true skill in ns1 is not the act of bhopping, it's deciding where to jump/run depending of what's happening around you.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me put this in simple terms:
<b>You cannot have a complex system of movement without an accordingly complex set of controls.</b>
You can't have a single, simple bhop key because bhopping isn't a single motion, it's a series of motions put together. Moreover, there shouldn't be a bhop key any more than there should be a jump and attack key. You claim to want "combos", and when I point out that bhop IS a combo, your response is "Well, then let's get rid of it!". I'm seeing a bit of projection here: Perhaps you're so adamantly against bhopping because you can't do it?
<!--quoteo(post=1860621:date=Jul 14 2011, 05:32 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jul 14 2011, 05:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860621"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Taken out of context. Finish the sentence.
"A person who plays less shouldn't be disadvantaged - shouldn't have less options - <b>just because he hasn't learned the right pattern of key-presses to do a super-move.</b>"
Re-start your argument with this in mind.
<i>(Btw, bunnyhopping is not a super-move, I was just using a broad example. It is, however, a "skill move".)</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So teach it to them. Include it in a tutorial or something.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem isn't that it's something difficult, but what that "something difficult" actually is.
That "something difficult" is like... let's use the idea of exams. Most exams outside of mathematics-heavy units don't actually test concepts, proficiency or understanding, but simply rote memorisation (exams reward rote memorisation, with grades). In what way is rote memorisation actually beneficial? Will it make a student better at their work than someone else who uses infallible references? (And are they even going to remember anything afterwards?)
Do exams reward what they should reward - proficiency and understanding? No.
The same applies to bunnyhopping. It's unnecessary and misdirected, so you're <b>rewarding the wrong thing</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who the ###### are you to decide what should be rewarded? Once again I point out that NS2 is a <b>First Person Shooter</b>. Aim and movements are core concepts to the genre.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From the "article" that was linked, the actual in-game benefit from bunnyhopping is speed* ("strafing in the air gives you acceleration") - the extra speed leads to more options (the real benefit). But obviously, the goal is more options, and if you want more speed, then you can just <b>add more speed</b>. <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro-->Instead people <b><u>arbitrarily</u></b> want a "<i>skill move</i>",<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> even though it adds very little to the game, while detracting from other aspects.
*Perhaps bunnyhopping is more than that, but no one thus far has managed to explain how.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha, no. For one thing, if you increased base speed and took out acceleration from air strafing (Which is not a trivial task), people would still "bunnyhop" because it lets you make jumps in elevation while retaining your speed, have a method of approach that actually allows you to move in not a straight line, etc. Then you'd have to deal with the implications of faster movement while wallwalking, through vents, in close combat, etc. You could toss in delays between jumps or reductions in consecutive jump height, but then players would have less options navigating terrain and marines would be even more disadvantaged in close combat.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And I did in fact come up with a variety of ideas, but they were lost in TrC's rage against my perfectly reasonable argument for why bunnyhopping is a poor input method, and then the subsequent "debate". I don't remember what page it was on.
An absolute reliance on technical skill does not in fact raise the skill ceiling (contrary to "that argument") - the skill ceiling (the maximum degree to which you affect the game) is the <b>same height</b>, the <u>skill floor</u> is just <b>much lower</b>.
<i>(You might have a different definition of "skill ceiling" - a purer definition, but that's really just the difference between the skill floor and the skill ceiling. What really matters is how much your skill allows you to affect the game.)</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You did in fact come up with a variety of ideas, all of them ###### terrible.
I played skulks like the drones in the alien movies and scared some people out of the game with it I think.
one even wrote "i seriously fell out of my chair" when I kicked his ass.
If it wouldn't look like a super bouncy ball in a car driving over a hole-riddled street (boingboingboingboingetc), it'd be okay with bunny hopping, but it does.
And jumpspam to avoid skulkattacks is just lame.
To end the jump spam simply make Marines more mobile (back-peddle should work) and restrict jumping to 'x' times before fatigue kicks in thus disabling jump for a short time.
Also make Aliens move faster by default.
Both teams remain highly mobile and jump spam is taken out of the picture.
Please, pretty please, with artificial sugar and icing on top, <b>do not take away the ability to fire my weapon whilst jumping in the air</b>.
Nothing gets me more excited than being ambushed by a skulk, completely freaking out, trying to dodge his attacks by jumping away whilst frantically emptying my clip into the floor/walls/ceiling. Because, lets face it, how often do you actually hit anything when doing this. And if you do, more power to you.
Also, I haven't played NS2 for quite some versions now, but this discussion seemed to have more validity when games were laggy as hell. Now that it's more or less playable (speculation, but I'm guessing....) once that skulk is on you, if he's any decent, jump spam or not, you're going down brother.
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<b>You cannot have a complex system of movement without an accordingly complex set of controls.</b>
You can't have a single, simple bhop key because bhopping isn't a single motion, it's a series of motions put together. Moreover, there shouldn't be a bhop key any more than there should be a jump and attack key. You claim to want "combos", and when I point out that bhop IS a combo, your response is "Well, then let's get rid of it!". I'm seeing a bit of projection here: Perhaps you're so adamantly against bhopping because you can't do it?
So teach it to them. Include it in a tutorial or something.
Who the ###### are you to decide what should be rewarded? Once again I point out that NS2 is a <b>First Person Shooter</b>. Aim and movements are core concepts to the genre.
Haha, no. For one thing, if you increased base speed and took out acceleration from air strafing (Which is not a trivial task), people would still "bunnyhop" because it lets you make jumps in elevation while retaining your speed, have a method of approach that actually allows you to move in not a straight line, etc. Then you'd have to deal with the implications of faster movement while wallwalking, through vents, in close combat, etc. You could toss in delays between jumps or reductions in consecutive jump height, but then players would have less options navigating terrain and marines would be even more disadvantaged in close combat.
You did in fact come up with a variety of ideas, all of them ###### terrible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Calm down, be reasonable, then start again.
<!--quoteo(post=1860765:date=Jul 14 2011, 10:10 PM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Jul 14 2011, 10:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860765"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it wouldn't look like a super bouncy ball in a car driving over a hole-riddled street (boingboingboingboingetc), it'd be okay with bunny hopping, but it does.
And jumpspam to avoid skulkattacks is just lame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not arguing for marine jump spam. Aliens need the skill movement, and as of now (which has almost been beaten into the ground) bunnyhop was the best way to add that extra dimension to movement and air control. Even the devs have admitted it was a feature in the game because there was no better replacement, and still there is not. Nothing is going to mimic real world physics in a video game when your only input methods are mouse and keyboard.
the only thing I can see stressing about marines firing while jumping but marines jumping isn't big deal at all.
<b>You cannot have a complex system of movement without an accordingly complex set of controls.</b>
You can't have a single, simple bhop key because bhopping isn't a single motion, it's a series of motions put together. Moreover, there shouldn't be a bhop key any more than there should be a jump and attack key.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As made evident by games like Painkiller it's perfectly possible to have a simple and intuitive bunny hop system without losing any gameplay complexity. Sure, bunny hopping is a lot easier to both learn and master in PK than in Quake, but being able to move fast doesn't automatically put you on par with Fatal1ty. In a way this discussion reminds me of multiple building selection and auto mining in SC2. Sure they make macro easier, but there's so much other stuff to think about and do right that it doesn't actually affect the overall complexity of the game. All it does is shift the focus to more (in my view) important aspects of the game, and most importantly, it makes the game easier to get into.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So teach it to them. Include it in a tutorial or something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Having an overly complex and unintuitive movement system as an obstacle that new players <b>have</b> to overcome before they can play the game proficiently will undoubtedly put people off. The system I presented on the last page is very simple and intutive (in its simplest form it's just a change in the leap mechanic), and easy to learn, yet can lead to very complex movement patterns once mastered.
You do realize that if bunnyhop would be implimented it would not be implimented the same way, ultimately it would be a different version of the bunnyhop. I would not call it overly complex either, once you get the basics it is as fluent as your mother language the problem is how to get to those basics without stressing new players too much.
I dont think you can make a skillbased movement system for NS2 without momentum, accerelation and air control.
Yes, thank you, I do. Which is exactly why I'm trying to shift the discussion towards new ideas on how to implement bunny hopping in more intuitive ways. I think we're on the same page here. I'm arguing that a simpler bunny hopping mechanic wouldn't necessarily "lower the skill ceiling" as some people here seem to suggest.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont think you can make a skillbased movement system for NS2 without momentum, accerelation and air control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the system I proposed odd strafe and mouse gestures to gain speed are replaced with a single button (leap) and invisible wings for air control are replaced with that same single button in combination with wall bounces. Mind you, I'm not saying we should get rid of air control entirely; a level similar to Quake 3 should be fine.
For marines it would prevent CONSTANT sprinting or jumping
For aliens it could allow a little speed boost to running / walking speed, or possibly a slightly longer leap by holding left Alt or something (just SOMETHING which isn't bhop, but will finally stop the same 50 players still moaning about it from requesting it 50 times a day)
Agiel and TrC you might be on the same page but a lot of people are not. If a person does not have intuitive understanding what a skill-based movement systems matters for a game like NS, then its hard to tell them otherwise.
I think puzl had good ideas how to make bhop more easier to learn, that is make "badly executed" bhop give decent speed boost and dimnishing gains with more perfect execution. And remove the forward key prohibition, its very unintuitive to not to use forward key when going forward. Also queued jumps would help a lot, then you don't need a mousewheel or a stupid script.
My recommendation is to do those three things before considering a completely different system with likely less depth. Best idea is to implement that and ask some new guys to learn it and see how fast they catch up.
But you have to understand, NS1 movement is not just the bhop, its the whole gravity / movement code that would have to be ported.
Oh yeah, air control is must.
CoD style jumping? When you jump too much, you end up jumping less than 1 feet.
Always made me wonder why something simple as marine movement needed a high skill ceiling. Couldn't you just move in tactical formations. Covering each other? Teamwork is a pretty cool skill.
When a game is "simple" as in, functional. Focus can be shifted on more interesting aspects.
Always made me wonder why something simple as marine movement needed a high skill ceiling. Couldn't you just move in tactical formations. Covering each other? Teamwork is a pretty cool skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Timing as a skill is nothing to be sneered at (personally I'm pretty proud of not really needing a jump script or binding mwheel to +jump to do ok at bunnyhopping), but not enough on its own.
But it's not marine movement that needs to take skill, as marines are indeed supposed to rely more on teamwork than individual skill - it's the alien team that's of primary interest when it comes to skill-based movement. So a stamina bar can be a perfectly valid suggestion, just don't call it skill-based movement.
No one did.
That being said, I'm now leaning more and more towards the idea of a short jump cooldown after you land (accompanied by view bobbing as feedback). The cooldown only needs to be long enough to make the animations not look silly and should present enough of a window for the skulks to easier land a hit if they can predict where you're going to land.
I feel that any sort of stamina system will be too restrictive. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, it's very frustrating to run out of stamina and not be able to jump or dodge. That's also the reason why I'm not a big fan of slowdown on hit. It's fine for melee attacks because by the time you got hit you already missed your opportunity to dodge, however for ranged attacks what you want to do is try to get behind cover while you're being shot at, and when the slowdown prevents you from doing that and you die, well, let's just say it's moments like those that make people rage quit.
Are you baiting? Nobody here is supporting jump spam, you are apparently mistaking bunnyhop for a jump spam.
The thread kind of leveled up to bunnyhopping a certain point.
/edit Apparently, completely disregarded his post and mistook you quoting someone else.
Yes, my bad... It was sort of implied by the context, especially when Uzrbital didn't correct me.