SpoogeThunderbolt missile in your cheeriosJoin Date: 2002-01-25Member: 67Members
<!--quoteo(post=1878443:date=Oct 7 2011, 01:49 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Oct 7 2011, 01:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878443"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see any signs of unions being out of control. I don't pay particular heed to american unions (yes, I'm probably opening a loophole for you here to say "american unions are DIFFERENT," and while I can't counter that argument, expect me to raise a skeptical eyebrow at it), but over here they seem squarely rooted in good sense, with the occasional slipup and excess as human nature sadly dictates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does this seem like "good sense" to you? - <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/longshoremen-storm-wash-state-port-damage-rr-144921214.html" target="_blank">Longshoremen storm Wash. state port, damage RR</a> <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->LONGVIEW, Wash. (AP) — Hundreds of Longshoremen stormed the Port of Longview early Thursday, overpowered and held security guards, damaged railroad cars, and dumped grain that is the center of a labor dispute, said Longview Police Chief Jim Duscha.
Six guards were held hostage for a couple of hours after 500 or more Longshoremen broke down gates about 4:30 a.m. and smashed windows in the guard shack, he said.
No one was hurt, and nobody has been arrested. Most of the protesters returned to their union hall after cutting brake lines and spilling grain from car at the EGT terminal, Duscha said.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why would they do this you ask? <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The International Longshore and Warehouse Union believes it has the right to work at the facility, but the company has hired a contractor that's staffing a workforce of other union laborers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There was also this one recently: <a href="http://dailycaller.com/2011/08/17/union-organizer-suspected-of-shooting-non-union-ohio-employer/" target="_blank">http://dailycaller.com/2011/08/17/union-or...-ohio-employer/</a>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->King Electrical Services owner John King was shot by a person who appears to be from one of the many unions who have targeted his workers, Toledo News Channel 11 WTOL reports. King is the largest non-union electrical contractor company in the area of southeastern Michigan near the Ohio border.
Consider my skeptical eyebrow raised. One or two stories of union malfeasance from a country of over 300 million won't sour me on the entire concept.
The most heated conflict I can think of lately was when negotiations between <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Sciences_Corporation" target="_blank">CSC</a> and danish union <a href="http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosa_%28######forening%29" target="_blank">Prosa (danish page)</a> broke down in February, leading to a partial strike that was countered by a full lockout, turning into a full strike of Prosa's CSC workers. The issue at hand was that CSC demanded a reduction in pay and benefits alongside an increase in working hours, as well as the complete removal of severance packages (that previously only applied specifically for workers fired due to layoffs). Despite several olive branches from Prosa, the conflict was eventually resolved in court, sadly with CSC being given carte blanche. As a result, Prosa workers are now just as cheap for CSC to "rightsize" as workers with no collective agreement at all, putting them in immediate financial jeopardy if CSC decides to do away with them. Financial jeopardy that reactionaries would of course blame on fiscal irresponsibility.
But that's our unions. Maybe yours are significantly more corrupt. If they are, <b><i>fix them.</i></b> You really have to. Abolishing them and placing yourselves at the mercy of corporate shareholders will only make it worse.
<!--quoteo(post=1878480:date=Oct 7 2011, 08:54 PM:name=BarerRudeROC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarerRudeROC @ Oct 7 2011, 08:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878480"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I always knew the site would've been updated sooner or later
<a href="http://oct282011.com/" target="_blank">http://oct282011.com/</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What is that? There's no explanation at all, just a candle, a number and a broken clock. Some sort of ARG?
<!--quoteo(post=1878491:date=Oct 7 2011, 08:16 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Oct 7 2011, 08:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878491"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What is that? There's no explanation at all, just a candle, a number and a broken clock. Some sort of ARG?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then have a look at this. I remember when this was popular.
<!--quoteo(post=1878390:date=Oct 7 2011, 08:39 AM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thansal @ Oct 7 2011, 08:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878390"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->CEldin, do you honestly think you deserve to have all of your debt wiped out? Even if it was built up by not knowing that you actually have to, you know, pay off your credit cards? Do you really think that you deserve to be supported for your entire life because there isn't a demand for left-handed glass blowers, that being what you think would make you happy?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think he or anyone wants a free ride. The only ones acting entitled are the people who refuse to empathize. Here's how it is. 10 or 20 years ago, you could complete a college degree - any college degree - in the US, and if you weren't an idiot, you could find a decent job. Since then, <a href="http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/06/14/244564/tuition-doubled-wages-stagnated/" target="_blank">wages have stagnated and tuition costs have skyrocketed</a>. Throw in a recession caused by corporate greed, and you have kids graduating from college deep in debt with no job prospects in the near or distant future. The lucky ones who find jobs have no chance of paying off their debts anytime soon. Even if you entered school 4 years ago purely to find a good money-making job when you graduate, chances are there are no jobs in that field today. Take <a href="http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2010/10/a_case_of_supply_v_demand.html" target="_blank">law</a>, for instance. I think if I had graduated with my relatively useless geography degree today, I would be SOL.
These protests are just the tip of the iceberg. Honestly I'm not sure it's possible for the economy to recover fast enough to fix this country. The few jobs that are being created are Chinese and Indian ones and I expect that to continue. I would not be surprised to see civil war/anarchy/revolution in the not-too-distant future. I'm not saying it's a probability, but I do feel like a boiling point is getting closer.
<!--quoteo(post=1878503:date=Oct 7 2011, 10:59 PM:name=BarerRudeROC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarerRudeROC @ Oct 7 2011, 10:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878503"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then have a look at this. I remember when this was popular.
<!--quoteo(post=1878559:date=Oct 8 2011, 12:16 AM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DiscoZombie @ Oct 8 2011, 12:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878559"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think he or anyone wants a free ride. The only ones acting entitled are the people who refuse to empathize. Here's how it is. 10 or 20 years ago, you could complete a college degree - any college degree - in the US, and if you weren't an idiot, you could find a decent job. Since then, <a href="http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/06/14/244564/tuition-doubled-wages-stagnated/" target="_blank">wages have stagnated and tuition costs have skyrocketed</a>. Throw in a recession caused by corporate greed, and you have kids graduating from college deep in debt with no job prospects in the near or distant future. The lucky ones who find jobs have no chance of paying off their debts anytime soon. Even if you entered school 4 years ago purely to find a good money-making job when you graduate, chances are there are no jobs in that field today. Take <a href="http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2010/10/a_case_of_supply_v_demand.html" target="_blank">law</a>, for instance. I think if I had graduated with my relatively useless geography degree today, I would be SOL.
These protests are just the tip of the iceberg. Honestly I'm not sure it's possible for the economy to recover fast enough to fix this country. The few jobs that are being created are Chinese and Indian ones and I expect that to continue. I would not be surprised to see civil war/anarchy/revolution in the not-too-distant future. I'm not saying it's a probability, but I do feel like a boiling point is getting closer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Same thing as Egypt. A lot of well educated young people without jobs or hopes of them. Really not that different. Except of course they had a dictator and you guys have "democracy*" so their target was clearer.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1878424:date=Oct 7 2011, 06:03 PM:name=Sops)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sops @ Oct 7 2011, 06:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878424"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That is what a union is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited October 2011
In relation to what I was saying earlier w.r.t. the fact that Greece is actually bailing Germany out: <a href="http://graphics.thomsonreuters.com/11/07/EZ_BNKEXP0711_SB.html" target="_blank">http://graphics.thomsonreuters.com/11/07/E...EXP0711_SB.html</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1878559:date=Oct 7 2011, 04:16 PM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DiscoZombie @ Oct 7 2011, 04:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878559"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->These protests are just the tip of the iceberg. Honestly I'm not sure it's possible for the economy to recover fast enough to fix this country. The few jobs that are being created are Chinese and Indian ones and I expect that to continue. I would not be surprised to see civil war/anarchy/revolution in the not-too-distant future. I'm not saying it's a probability, but I do feel like a boiling point is getting closer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what you're saying is I should start buying weapons. I hear Best Buy is stocking rifles.
Honestly I'm somewhat of an optimist at least in this that we'll weather this for a while. We keep moving to stronger polarizations and such, and there are morons on both sides, but to the point we just give up and overthrow things? That's a while out in my mind. Many people are unhappy, but not so unhappy that they have lost hope in our current system. Sure there's stories of unions and politicians and companies being ######s, but by and large most are doing their jobs well as can be. I hear lots of talk at my workplace, but very few signs of VIVA LA REVOLUTION.
<!--quoteo(post=1878559:date=Oct 8 2011, 01:16 AM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DiscoZombie @ Oct 8 2011, 01:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878559"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->20 years ago, you could complete a college degree - any college degree - in the US, and if you weren't an idiot, you could find a decent job.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That sounds a bit like a luxury. Sure it would be nice if anyone could study whatever he\she wishes and be able to find employement in that field, but when the going gets tough you can't expect things like that to persist. In times of crisis stuff gets stripped down to their bare necessity, and I'm sorry to say but many of those protesters (artists\musicians and alike) will find themselfs to be in the wrong field at the wrong time. That's a shame, but you can't demand from the government employement in the areas you like, that's just insane, and frankly, a bit entitled.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly I'm not sure it's possible for the economy to recover fast enough to fix this country.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And what would be "fixing this country"? To go back to your old ways of excessive spending? The everlasting expansion of your economy and the housing-market to keep running away from the plain and simple truth: you're living above your means. That isn't specific to the USA by the way, you indeed see it in many countries.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The few jobs that are being created are Chinese and Indian ones and I expect that to continue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not so sure about that, chinese\indian educational-institutions aren't brilliant at the moment, so I don't see them competing at the same level as the western-world just yet. But suppose those jobs ARE going over there. A good move would be to figure out why that is, instead of closing the borders of import from those countries and succumbing to xenophobia.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would not be surprised to see civil war/anarchy/revolution in the not-too-distant future. I'm not saying it's a probability, but I do feel like a boiling point is getting closer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A revolution\war against whom? exactly? So far the protesters haven't been very clear about who they consider their enemy (some hollow phrases notwithstanding, ea. corporations\capitalism\et cetera).
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited October 2011
That's just stupid though Steve, and I have come to expect more from you. Ignoring the fact that there's no way to determine, from a photo, who made the razors or makeup etc..
Is the guy who protests against rape not allowed to have a girlfriend?
Is the person who is against cruelty to animals not allowed to eat meat?
Is the person who supports the development of alternative energy not allowed to have a car?
Are the people who object to corporate greed not allowed to purchase from corporations?
Of course they are. Life is complex. You can't put protesters into nice little pigeon holes that allow you to vilify them so easily.
False dichotomy. "You either want to completely ban all private enterprise or you have to accept completely unregulated private enterprise. There can never be any middle ground."
It's basic logic. They're already operating at the lowest profit possible. Hardly anyone working at those corporations, especially not upper management, earns any money at all. If they worked their employees any less hard or paid them any more money, they'd go bankrupt so quickly they'd create an implosion that would SUCK WALL STREET INTO THE GROUND.
Seriously, can we stop with the strawman arguments? It's stupid and it makes you look stupid. I don't think you're stupid. But when you say stupid things, it makes it hard for me to stick to that belief.
<!--quoteo(post=1878732:date=Oct 8 2011, 05:12 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Oct 8 2011, 05:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878732"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They do? Where did you read that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the problem puzl. "They" doesn't exist. The people protesting all have different reasons for being there. They're uneducated fools taking out their own personal failures on corporations by protesting... wall-street?. It's <i>beyond</i> stupid. There is no coherent message, although the media may have tried to form one for them by now, and there's no real reason for them to be there.
They're wasting their time (although that implies their time actually has some measure of value) and I'm glad the media in America is completely ignoring them.
I can't be bothered to find it now but one of the initial news reports on this 'movement' was a segment where they interviewed the people in the protest. One said he was tired of 'corporations controlling his life' and the next she said was here 'for her brothers and sisters in egypt.'
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1878752:date=Oct 8 2011, 11:04 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Oct 8 2011, 11:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878752"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The people protesting all have different reasons for being there. They're uneducated fools taking out their own personal failures on corporations by protesting... wall-street?.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey, they're American, it's redundant to say they are uneducated fools :P
No, but seriously, I think, what they all have in common is a disgust for the fact that the large financial services companies at the heart of corporate economics are making record profits while the rest of the real economy suffers. People are tired of being told the falsehood that the 1% create jobs and that progressive taxation is Unamerican[tm] while socialised losses aren't. The rich never have and never will create jobs, the only thing that creates jobs is demand. So although these people protesting have no leading voice and the general message from them is incoherent and ineffective it is dangerous to ignore them, in my opinion.
<!--quoteo(post=1878352:date=Oct 7 2011, 03:29 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Oct 7 2011, 03:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878352"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not sure where you live, but in the US we've experienced an average annual inflation rate of 2.56% this past decade Source: <a href="http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/images/charts/Articles/DecadeInflation.jpg" target="_blank">http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/images/...deInflation.jpg</a>
The US would actually benefit from more inflation right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1. You're insane. 2. Zimbabwe school of economics is actively supported by Bernanke, check M2. 3. Your CPI data is from govt that started to use totally different calculations 10-30 years ago. I mean seriously they managed to see almost 0 inflation when housing bubble was skyrocketing.
Chinese currency is pegged (more or less) to USD. All the inflation went there (10-20% per year). The ones doing real protests and revolutions won't be bunch of content hipsters in USA but Chinese workers demanding end of peg. It's quite simple prediction based on purchasing power being lost there. In other words it's more of "I can't get enough food" instead of "I can't buy another IPhone".
BTW capitalism refers to capita not capital. Not even remotely connected to corporations, in reality lots of corporations prefer controlled market because it's easier and safer to pay politicians than compete in free market.
Underwhelmed: people need to get laid off in unproductive sectors, earning money on something is a SIGNAL that this activity is demanded and useful for society. Furthermore: it might sound like insanity for people listening to mainstream bs: the goal of economy/companies is to REDUCE employment (while doing its job). High employment is a side effect of effective economy (and companies) but it's not a goal in itself, the usual example is to tell millions of people to dig holes in the ground 1 day and fill them again next day. Full employment instantly but absolutely useless.
Some of you would say but hey they won't get employed. And you're absolutely right. While households and companies deleveraged (they spend less, save more, pay debts) US govt stepped in to borrow more. All the money/credit goes into the government. You want to take a loan to invest and hire N people? Go ###### yourself, your government already took the money (in common conditions it's safer and easier for banks to lend to government, well until it can't pay it back).
Purchasing power is achieved by being productive, making what other people want and not just getting the paycheck (correlation is not causality).
Unions are very harmful because they inflict political pressure. They make politicians implement policies that benefit organized union members while screwing rest of the population. In fractional reserved moving up and down so that politicians can get reelected they also do harm by making it harder to decrease wages (while they had absolutely nothing against rising wages).
<!--quoteo(post=1878696:date=Oct 8 2011, 01:15 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Oct 8 2011, 01:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878696"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A revolution\war against whom? exactly? So far the protesters haven't been very clear about who they consider their enemy (some hollow phrases notwithstanding, ea. corporations\capitalism\et cetera).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I mean, this country is *probably* mature enough that it won't come to organized violent conflict, but... you have tea partiers feeling disenfranchised and blaming the government, and occupy wall streeters feeling disenfranchised and blaming corporations. People who are poor long enough with no options won't stay nonviolent forever. Crime, riots, etc. are what happens when poverty runs rampant. I can only cross my fingers that it won't get that far... though I almost wish it would. Looming government shutdowns due to lack of funding because the wealthy don't want to part with their fair share... maybe mobs of starving people breaking down their doors in a state of anarchy is the only wake up call they'll understand.
I don't know why it's that surprising that OWS seems disjointed. No two people are affected by the crap economy in an identical way. They don't have to all be MENSA members to know that something's rotten in Denmark. Here's an articulation of the frustrations of OWS:
<!--quoteo(post=1878756:date=Oct 9 2011, 12:15 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Oct 9 2011, 12:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hey, they're American, it's redundant to say they are uneducated fools :P
No, but seriously, I think, what they all have in common is a disgust for the fact that the large financial services companies at the heart of corporate economics are making record profits while the rest of the real economy suffers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you finally figured out that banks are transmitting inflation from Fed to whole economy and benefit from it? Banks get suckers, government can tax people through inflation which is harder to notice than explicit tax and voters can demand more and more.
<!--quoteo(post=1878756:date=Oct 9 2011, 12:15 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Oct 9 2011, 12:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People are tired of being told the falsehood that the 1% create jobs<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They create them - they invest and they also buy things others produce.
<!--quoteo(post=1878756:date=Oct 9 2011, 12:15 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Oct 9 2011, 12:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and that progressive taxation is Unamerican[tm]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's hard to tell what it means to be american. Progressive taxation - let's say it's unbelievably good. Let's say - ###### the rich, let's tax all income they have. That'd be tiny amount of what US spends per year ($4T?).
<!--quoteo(post=1878756:date=Oct 9 2011, 12:15 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Oct 9 2011, 12:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->while socialised losses aren't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Blame Mr. Obama and his friends from Goldman Sachs. That is obviously total negation of capitalism, private profits and private losses.
<!--quoteo(post=1878756:date=Oct 9 2011, 12:15 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Oct 9 2011, 12:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The rich never have and never will create jobs,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> False again.
<!--quoteo(post=1878756:date=Oct 9 2011, 12:15 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Oct 9 2011, 12:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the only thing that creates jobs is demand.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> False, there's always demand for everything at the right price. Why won't you open a factory in US and export goods to China? Labor costs? Then they have to go down dramatically to match the American efficiency myth. Chinese aren't without sin either, their artificial peg distorts things a lot.
<!--quoteo(post=1878756:date=Oct 9 2011, 12:15 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Oct 9 2011, 12:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So although these people protesting have no leading voice and the general message from them is incoherent and ineffective it is dangerous to ignore them, in my opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Crowds are only good at doing simple tasks like voting on Hitler/NSDAP. Some of what is being said here just needs a catalyst like NSDAP had Jew bankers to blame for the crisis.
<!--quoteo(post=1878777:date=Oct 9 2011, 01:47 AM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DiscoZombie @ Oct 9 2011, 01:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878777"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I mean, this country is *probably* mature enough that it won't come to organized violent conflict, but... you have tea partiers feeling disenfranchised and blaming the government, and occupy wall streeters feeling disenfranchised and blaming corporations. People who are poor long enough with no options won't stay nonviolent forever. Crime, riots, etc. are what happens when poverty runs rampant. I can only cross my fingers that it won't get that far... though I almost wish it would. Looming government shutdowns due to lack of funding because the wealthy don't want to part with their fair share... maybe mobs of starving people breaking down their doors in a state of anarchy is the only wake up call they'll understand.
I don't know why it's that surprising that OWS seems disjointed. No two people are affected by the crap economy in an identical way. They don't have to all be MENSA members to know that something's rotten in Denmark. Here's an articulation of the frustrations of OWS:
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/yhrwmJcsfT0"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/yhrwmJcsfT0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah that video rubs me in all the wrong ways.
"Wall-street wrecked the economy". Who or what is wall-street exactly in this context? Investors? Companies? Banks? I think the "Occupy Wallstreet"-crowd really needs to put out a dictionary so I can look up the actual meaning of these phrases. And how did they wreck the economy? Wasn't a large portion of the problem the utterly diseased housing(mortage)-market from which many of those 99% happily profited many years? Sure the banks were stupid to give out those loans, and should've fallen on their arses harder for it, but I dislike how they're used as scapegoats for everything while in fact the average american acted just as selfish and thoughtless as many of the incompetent bankers did. This whole "Occupy Wallstreet"-organization is elevating the art of scapegoating to entirely new levels, and the amount of ignorance and naiveness just absolutely astounds me.
<!--quoteo(post=1878797:date=Oct 9 2011, 03:04 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Oct 9 2011, 03:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878797"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ah that video rubs me in all the wrong ways.
"Wall-street wrecked the economy". Who or what is wall-street exactly in this context? Investors? Companies? Banks? I think the "Occupy Wallstreet"-crowd really needs to put out a dictionary so I can look up the actual meaning of these phrases. And how did they wreck the economy? Wasn't a large portion of the problem the utterly diseased housing(mortage)-market from which many of those 99% happily profited many years? Sure the banks were stupid to give out those loans, and should've fallen on their arses harder for it, but I dislike how they're used as scapegoats for everything while in fact the average american acted just as selfish and thoughtless as many of the incompetent bankers did. This whole "Occupy Wallstreet"-organization is elevating the art of scapegoating to entirely new levels, and the amount of ignorance and naiveness just absolutely astounds me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Like I said Jewish Bankers (copyright by A Hitler 1930) is a much better slogan. Scapegoat has to be a person/group/nation rather than lol a place.
<!--quoteo(post=1878791:date=Oct 8 2011, 05:50 PM:name=MOOtant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MOOtant @ Oct 8 2011, 05:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878791"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Blame Mr. Obama and his friends from Goldman Sachs. That is obviously total negation of capitalism, private profits and private losses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The majority of the bank bailouts were enacted by Bush, not Obama. But you already knew that, because you're clearly just a troll.
Comments
Does this seem like "good sense" to you? - <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/longshoremen-storm-wash-state-port-damage-rr-144921214.html" target="_blank">Longshoremen storm Wash. state port, damage RR</a>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->LONGVIEW, Wash. (AP) — Hundreds of Longshoremen stormed the Port of Longview early Thursday, overpowered and held security guards, damaged railroad cars, and dumped grain that is the center of a labor dispute, said Longview Police Chief Jim Duscha.
Six guards were held hostage for a couple of hours after 500 or more Longshoremen broke down gates about 4:30 a.m. and smashed windows in the guard shack, he said.
No one was hurt, and nobody has been arrested. Most of the protesters returned to their union hall after cutting brake lines and spilling grain from car at the EGT terminal, Duscha said.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why would they do this you ask?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The International Longshore and Warehouse Union believes it has the right to work at the facility, but the company has hired a contractor that's staffing a workforce of other union laborers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe things are different here.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->King Electrical Services owner John King was shot by a person who appears to be from one of the many unions who have targeted his workers, Toledo News Channel 11 WTOL reports. King is the largest non-union electrical contractor company in the area of southeastern Michigan near the Ohio border.
Read more: <a href="http://dailycaller.com/2011/08/17/union-organizer-suspected-of-shooting-non-union-ohio-employer/#ixzz1a7ZNFebP" target="_blank">http://dailycaller.com/2011/08/17/union-or.../#ixzz1a7ZNFebP</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://oct282011.com/" target="_blank">http://oct282011.com/</a>
The most heated conflict I can think of lately was when negotiations between <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Sciences_Corporation" target="_blank">CSC</a> and danish union <a href="http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosa_%28######forening%29" target="_blank">Prosa (danish page)</a> broke down in February, leading to a partial strike that was countered by a full lockout, turning into a full strike of Prosa's CSC workers. The issue at hand was that CSC demanded a reduction in pay and benefits alongside an increase in working hours, as well as the complete removal of severance packages (that previously only applied specifically for workers fired due to layoffs). Despite several olive branches from Prosa, the conflict was eventually resolved in court, sadly with CSC being given carte blanche. As a result, Prosa workers are now just as cheap for CSC to "rightsize" as workers with no collective agreement at all, putting them in immediate financial jeopardy if CSC decides to do away with them. Financial jeopardy that reactionaries would of course blame on fiscal irresponsibility.
But that's our unions. Maybe yours are significantly more corrupt. If they are, <b><i>fix them.</i></b> You really have to. Abolishing them and placing yourselves at the mercy of corporate shareholders will only make it worse.
<a href="http://oct282011.com/" target="_blank">http://oct282011.com/</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is that? There's no explanation at all, just a candle, a number and a broken clock. Some sort of ARG?
Then have a look at this.
I remember when this was popular.
<a href="http://www.05-19-13.com/" target="_blank">http://www.05-19-13.com/</a>
Do you really think that you deserve to be supported for your entire life because there isn't a demand for left-handed glass blowers, that being what you think would make you happy?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think he or anyone wants a free ride. The only ones acting entitled are the people who refuse to empathize. Here's how it is. 10 or 20 years ago, you could complete a college degree - any college degree - in the US, and if you weren't an idiot, you could find a decent job. Since then, <a href="http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/06/14/244564/tuition-doubled-wages-stagnated/" target="_blank">wages have stagnated and tuition costs have skyrocketed</a>. Throw in a recession caused by corporate greed, and you have kids graduating from college deep in debt with no job prospects in the near or distant future. The lucky ones who find jobs have no chance of paying off their debts anytime soon. Even if you entered school 4 years ago purely to find a good money-making job when you graduate, chances are there are no jobs in that field today. Take <a href="http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2010/10/a_case_of_supply_v_demand.html" target="_blank">law</a>, for instance. I think if I had graduated with my relatively useless geography degree today, I would be SOL.
These protests are just the tip of the iceberg. Honestly I'm not sure it's possible for the economy to recover fast enough to fix this country. The few jobs that are being created are Chinese and Indian ones and I expect that to continue. I would not be surprised to see civil war/anarchy/revolution in the not-too-distant future. I'm not saying it's a probability, but I do feel like a boiling point is getting closer.
I remember when this was popular.
<a href="http://www.05-19-13.com/" target="_blank">http://www.05-19-13.com/</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What.
These protests are just the tip of the iceberg. Honestly I'm not sure it's possible for the economy to recover fast enough to fix this country. The few jobs that are being created are Chinese and Indian ones and I expect that to continue. I would not be surprised to see civil war/anarchy/revolution in the not-too-distant future. I'm not saying it's a probability, but I do feel like a boiling point is getting closer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Same thing as Egypt. A lot of well educated young people without jobs or hopes of them. Really not that different. Except of course they had a dictator and you guys have "democracy*" so their target was clearer.
*Corporate interests
Yeah, exactly what I was thinking.
<a href="http://graphics.thomsonreuters.com/11/07/EZ_BNKEXP0711_SB.html" target="_blank">http://graphics.thomsonreuters.com/11/07/E...EXP0711_SB.html</a>
So what you're saying is I should start buying weapons. I hear Best Buy is stocking rifles.
Honestly I'm somewhat of an optimist at least in this that we'll weather this for a while. We keep moving to stronger polarizations and such, and there are morons on both sides, but to the point we just give up and overthrow things? That's a while out in my mind. Many people are unhappy, but not so unhappy that they have lost hope in our current system. Sure there's stories of unions and politicians and companies being ######s, but by and large most are doing their jobs well as can be. I hear lots of talk at my workplace, but very few signs of VIVA LA REVOLUTION.
That sounds a bit like a luxury. Sure it would be nice if anyone could study whatever he\she wishes and be able to find employement in that field, but when the going gets tough you can't expect things like that to persist. In times of crisis stuff gets stripped down to their bare necessity, and I'm sorry to say but many of those protesters (artists\musicians and alike) will find themselfs to be in the wrong field at the wrong time. That's a shame, but you can't demand from the government employement in the areas you like, that's just insane, and frankly, a bit entitled.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly I'm not sure it's possible for the economy to recover fast enough to fix this country.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And what would be "fixing this country"? To go back to your old ways of excessive spending? The everlasting expansion of your economy and the housing-market to keep running away from the plain and simple truth: you're living above your means. That isn't specific to the USA by the way, you indeed see it in many countries.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The few jobs that are being created are Chinese and Indian ones and I expect that to continue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not so sure about that, chinese\indian educational-institutions aren't brilliant at the moment, so I don't see them competing at the same level as the western-world just yet. But suppose those jobs ARE going over there. A good move would be to figure out why that is, instead of closing the borders of import from those countries and succumbing to xenophobia.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would not be surprised to see civil war/anarchy/revolution in the not-too-distant future. I'm not saying it's a probability, but I do feel like a boiling point is getting closer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A revolution\war against whom? exactly? So far the protesters haven't been very clear about who they consider their enemy (some hollow phrases notwithstanding, ea. corporations\capitalism\et cetera).
<img src="http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Evil-Corporations.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Is the guy who protests against rape not allowed to have a girlfriend?
Is the person who is against cruelty to animals not allowed to eat meat?
Is the person who supports the development of alternative energy not allowed to have a car?
Are the people who object to corporate greed not allowed to purchase from corporations?
Of course they are. Life is complex. You can't put protesters into nice little pigeon holes that allow you to vilify them so easily.
What could possibly be wrong with that?
Seriously, can we stop with the strawman arguments? It's stupid and it makes you look stupid. I don't think you're stupid. But when you say stupid things, it makes it hard for me to stick to that belief.
Lighten up ladies. Nobody ran over your puppy. Time to go get a sense of humor.
That's the problem puzl. "They" doesn't exist. The people protesting all have different reasons for being there. They're uneducated fools taking out their own personal failures on corporations by protesting... wall-street?. It's <i>beyond</i> stupid. There is no coherent message, although the media may have tried to form one for them by now, and there's no real reason for them to be there.
They're wasting their time (although that implies their time actually has some measure of value) and I'm glad the media in America is completely ignoring them.
I can't be bothered to find it now but one of the initial news reports on this 'movement' was a segment where they interviewed the people in the protest. One said he was tired of 'corporations controlling his life' and the next she said was here 'for her brothers and sisters in egypt.'
Morons.
Hey, they're American, it's redundant to say they are uneducated fools :P
No, but seriously, I think, what they all have in common is a disgust for the fact that the large financial services companies at the heart of corporate economics are making record profits while the rest of the real economy suffers. People are tired of being told the falsehood that the 1% create jobs and that progressive taxation is Unamerican[tm] while socialised losses aren't. The rich never have and never will create jobs, the only thing that creates jobs is demand. So although these people protesting have no leading voice and the general message from them is incoherent and ineffective it is dangerous to ignore them, in my opinion.
Source: <a href="http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/images/charts/Articles/DecadeInflation.jpg" target="_blank">http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/images/...deInflation.jpg</a>
The US would actually benefit from more inflation right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. You're insane.
2. Zimbabwe school of economics is actively supported by Bernanke, check M2.
3. Your CPI data is from govt that started to use totally different calculations 10-30 years ago. I mean seriously they managed to see almost 0 inflation when housing bubble was skyrocketing.
Chinese currency is pegged (more or less) to USD. All the inflation went there (10-20% per year). The ones doing real protests and revolutions won't be bunch of content hipsters in USA but Chinese workers demanding end of peg. It's quite simple prediction based on purchasing power being lost there. In other words it's more of "I can't get enough food" instead of "I can't buy another IPhone".
BTW capitalism refers to capita not capital. Not even remotely connected to corporations, in reality lots of corporations prefer controlled market because it's easier and safer to pay politicians than compete in free market.
Underwhelmed: people need to get laid off in unproductive sectors, earning money on something is a SIGNAL that this activity is demanded and useful for society. Furthermore: it might sound like insanity for people listening to mainstream bs: the goal of economy/companies is to REDUCE employment (while doing its job). High employment is a side effect of effective economy (and companies) but it's not a goal in itself, the usual example is to tell millions of people to dig holes in the ground 1 day and fill them again next day. Full employment instantly but absolutely useless.
Some of you would say but hey they won't get employed. And you're absolutely right. While households and companies deleveraged (they spend less, save more, pay debts) US govt stepped in to borrow more. All the money/credit goes into the government. You want to take a loan to invest and hire N people? Go ###### yourself, your government already took the money (in common conditions it's safer and easier for banks to lend to government, well until it can't pay it back).
Purchasing power is achieved by being productive, making what other people want and not just getting the paycheck (correlation is not causality).
Unions are very harmful because they inflict political pressure. They make politicians implement policies that benefit organized union members while screwing rest of the population. In fractional reserved moving up and down so that politicians can get reelected they also do harm by making it harder to decrease wages (while they had absolutely nothing against rising wages).
I mean, this country is *probably* mature enough that it won't come to organized violent conflict, but... you have tea partiers feeling disenfranchised and blaming the government, and occupy wall streeters feeling disenfranchised and blaming corporations. People who are poor long enough with no options won't stay nonviolent forever. Crime, riots, etc. are what happens when poverty runs rampant. I can only cross my fingers that it won't get that far... though I almost wish it would. Looming government shutdowns due to lack of funding because the wealthy don't want to part with their fair share... maybe mobs of starving people breaking down their doors in a state of anarchy is the only wake up call they'll understand.
I don't know why it's that surprising that OWS seems disjointed. No two people are affected by the crap economy in an identical way. They don't have to all be MENSA members to know that something's rotten in Denmark. Here's an articulation of the frustrations of OWS:
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/yhrwmJcsfT0"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/yhrwmJcsfT0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
No, but seriously, I think, what they all have in common is a disgust for the fact that the large financial services companies at the heart of corporate economics are making record profits while the rest of the real economy suffers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you finally figured out that banks are transmitting inflation from Fed to whole economy and benefit from it? Banks get suckers, government can tax people through inflation which is harder to notice than explicit tax and voters can demand more and more.
<!--quoteo(post=1878756:date=Oct 9 2011, 12:15 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Oct 9 2011, 12:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People are tired of being told the falsehood that the 1% create jobs<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They create them - they invest and they also buy things others produce.
<!--quoteo(post=1878756:date=Oct 9 2011, 12:15 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Oct 9 2011, 12:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and that progressive taxation is Unamerican[tm]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's hard to tell what it means to be american. Progressive taxation - let's say it's unbelievably good. Let's say - ###### the rich, let's tax all income they have. That'd be tiny amount of what US spends per year ($4T?).
<!--quoteo(post=1878756:date=Oct 9 2011, 12:15 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Oct 9 2011, 12:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->while socialised losses aren't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Blame Mr. Obama and his friends from Goldman Sachs. That is obviously total negation of capitalism, private profits and private losses.
<!--quoteo(post=1878756:date=Oct 9 2011, 12:15 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Oct 9 2011, 12:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The rich never have and never will create jobs,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
False again.
<!--quoteo(post=1878756:date=Oct 9 2011, 12:15 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Oct 9 2011, 12:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the only thing that creates jobs is demand.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
False, there's always demand for everything at the right price. Why won't you open a factory in US and export goods to China? Labor costs? Then they have to go down dramatically to match the American efficiency myth. Chinese aren't without sin either, their artificial peg distorts things a lot.
<!--quoteo(post=1878756:date=Oct 9 2011, 12:15 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Oct 9 2011, 12:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1878756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So although these people protesting have no leading voice and the general message from them is incoherent and ineffective it is dangerous to ignore them, in my opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Crowds are only good at doing simple tasks like voting on Hitler/NSDAP. Some of what is being said here just needs a catalyst like NSDAP had Jew bankers to blame for the crisis.
I don't know why it's that surprising that OWS seems disjointed. No two people are affected by the crap economy in an identical way. They don't have to all be MENSA members to know that something's rotten in Denmark. Here's an articulation of the frustrations of OWS:
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/yhrwmJcsfT0"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/yhrwmJcsfT0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah that video rubs me in all the wrong ways.
"Wall-street wrecked the economy". Who or what is wall-street exactly in this context? Investors? Companies? Banks? I think the "Occupy Wallstreet"-crowd really needs to put out a dictionary so I can look up the actual meaning of these phrases. And how did they wreck the economy? Wasn't a large portion of the problem the utterly diseased housing(mortage)-market from which many of those 99% happily profited many years? Sure the banks were stupid to give out those loans, and should've fallen on their arses harder for it, but I dislike how they're used as scapegoats for everything while in fact the average american acted just as selfish and thoughtless as many of the incompetent bankers did. This whole "Occupy Wallstreet"-organization is elevating the art of scapegoating to entirely new levels, and the amount of ignorance and naiveness just absolutely astounds me.
"Wall-street wrecked the economy". Who or what is wall-street exactly in this context? Investors? Companies? Banks? I think the "Occupy Wallstreet"-crowd really needs to put out a dictionary so I can look up the actual meaning of these phrases. And how did they wreck the economy? Wasn't a large portion of the problem the utterly diseased housing(mortage)-market from which many of those 99% happily profited many years? Sure the banks were stupid to give out those loans, and should've fallen on their arses harder for it, but I dislike how they're used as scapegoats for everything while in fact the average american acted just as selfish and thoughtless as many of the incompetent bankers did. This whole "Occupy Wallstreet"-organization is elevating the art of scapegoating to entirely new levels, and the amount of ignorance and naiveness just absolutely astounds me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like I said Jewish Bankers (copyright by A Hitler 1930) is a much better slogan. Scapegoat has to be a person/group/nation rather than lol a place.
The majority of the bank bailouts were enacted by Bush, not Obama. But you already knew that, because you're clearly just a troll.