locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1880053:date=Oct 15 2011, 02:26 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Oct 15 2011, 02:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1880053"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Um, as much as I'd like to agree, I'm still waiting on some stats of fakes versus reals. Picking out the original poster is also cherry-picking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The meat of the article wasn't that the founder is a fake, but that he has been a confirmed astroturfer at least twice in the past. Of course the hypocrisy makes for a more interesting title.
<!--quoteo(post=1879995:date=Oct 15 2011, 02:18 PM:name=Panigg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Panigg @ Oct 15 2011, 02:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1879995"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This now spread worldwide. <a href="http://15october.net/" target="_blank">http://15october.net/</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Here's the answer to it: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMhsyAjilBA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMhsyAjilBA</a>
Once again old thing applies. West Europeans and Americans have never seen what happens after years of socialism/communism and having no contact with reality they fly into stratosphere of idiocy. Oh, and they also buy Che Guevara T shirts.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1880070:date=Oct 15 2011, 04:51 PM:name=MOOtant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MOOtant @ Oct 15 2011, 04:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1880070"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Once again old thing applies. West Europeans and Americans have never seen what happens after years of socialism/communism and having no contact with reality they fly into stratosphere of idiocy. Oh, and they also buy Che Guevara T shirts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't compare people with 10,000 years of history with others that have 500. The ones closest to reality are the ones with most history even if it makes us dwell on the past a bit too much. As a European living in the US, I see most Americans have no idea of what capitalism and socialism are, and I only meet people in College, you would think they have an education. The US relies heavily on propaganda stating that socialism or communism is the bad guys and democratic capitalism is the good guys. We know from our history the proper way is in balance not extremes. It doesn't matter what extreme you are in they are both a pitfall. In the same way did the USSR fall, shall be the way of the US, only inverted. You cannot fight the balancing laws of nature, nor the Higher One's sens of humor.
The only beneficial country nowadays is china, they have a very long history in balance, the yin yang a center symbol of their consciousness. They are truly the ones who are going somewhere in this time.
Isn't it ironic for the US, that they now loan money from china, so the US can run its factories in china to sell the goods back home, so they can repay their dept to china!? So who has the real understanding of economics here and who is the slave?
China's not big on confucianism these days, and that philosophy is far too blindly devoted to filial duty anyway. Besides, China's economic success comes through ###### wages, terrible living conditions and ecological devastation. If that's the model for the future, we're headed for grimdark.
I do think that the kinds of moderate socialism practised in many european countries has potential, but Europe is currently mired in bureaucracy and corruption courtesy of the EU. Don't expect us to teach the world, we're too busy fixing our own ###### to assume holier-than-thou stances and preach our gospel.
Ultimately though we have two things going for us: We realize that there's a difference between communism and socialism, and we're not scared of the latter. The scars of McCarthyism run deep in the US, and the right wing has successfully managed to equate any degree of socialism with totalitarian dictatorships. That's going to remain a problem for a while longer.
<!--quoteo(post=1880070:date=Oct 15 2011, 11:51 PM:name=MOOtant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MOOtant @ Oct 15 2011, 11:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1880070"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Once again old thing applies. West Europeans and Americans have never seen what happens after years of socialism/communism and having no contact with reality they fly into stratosphere of idiocy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> and who says they want communism? Its about not letting the Wallstreet criminals do whatever the fck they want - with money they just got from the ppl (the bailout). They need to be heavily controlled. Currently they are allowed to run a whole world against the wall, because they speculate like crazy. And THAT is what needs to be changed. They should only be allowed to play with money they actually DO have! Not a word of communism. Watch less FOX ...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh, and they also buy Che Guevara T shirts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Source ?
<!--quoteo(post=1880073:date=Oct 15 2011, 05:17 PM:name=Evil_bOb1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_bOb1 @ Oct 15 2011, 05:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1880073"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can't compare people with 10,000 years of history with others that have 500... As a European living in the US... The only beneficial country nowadays is china... So who has the real understanding of economics here and who is the slave?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So like the bulk of the American population you made a trip across an ocean yet for some reason you retained your history while everyone else's odometer reset to zero? That is an interesting theory.
If China's economic growth dips below 8% the whole thing collapses like a ponzi scheme, not really the model I want to look to for stability.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1880078:date=Oct 15 2011, 06:26 PM:name=Sops)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sops @ Oct 15 2011, 06:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1880078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So like the bulk of the American population you made a trip across an ocean yet for some reason you retained your history while everyone else's odometer reset to zero? That is an interesting theory.
If China's economic growth dips below 8% the whole thing collapses like a ponzi scheme, not really the model I want to look to for stability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where you are born is clearly the most important factor. From all people I've met, all origins included, first generation will know their history because we lived with it, it lives in buildings, expressions, proverbs, music, dance, culture of our respective countries. Second generation will have lessons of their past but haven't lived with it as firsts have.
Where I'm from we say "with ifs you can put Paris in a bottle."
Edit: And you all are focusing on models, theories, solutions, demands and whatnot to understand yourselves and others. That view can help you see things but it narrows your vision to one dimension. Something I notice in a lot of Americans. The advantage of a big history is we don't rely as much on our current system to tell how it is. Life is more important and if we want to change system we do. France has had 15 different systems since the US has had one. Models and theories are just an expression of a time. Only life is eternal. You really have to put life in front and not the life your government has lent you, tells you it is protecting 'your lifestyle' when it is really protecting itself.
In a few hundred years you will understand :p I do have much more 'compassion' towards Americans from when I first came here. If history does repeat itself, you will go through dark times and them will come to some sort of humanitarian renaissance. And then you will truly bring something positive to the world. Currently you guys are just vanity, greed and warmongers... ( i know I'm generalizing too, its not true for all, but still this is what i see and hear most of the time...)
I think what he was referring to is that "American" history is deeply rooted in Europe's.
However, I would point out that as Americans we stink at properly knowing history. Any history. Ours and Europe's.
I don't think it's the newness of the country though as much as the fact America has bought into a very interesting belief system. I'm not talking strictly religion, although that plays a part. I mean that 1) America is number 1 in the world, 2) consumerism is awesome (and capitalism, but most don't understand that word), and 3) did I mention we're awesome?
We seriously live in a stupid bubble on our continent here. In Europe you've got completely different nations a few hundred miles out. Us? We've got, Canada? Mexico? They're just backwards morons, right? I think it's that lack of dealing with others that messes us up the most. Sure we love new and interesting people entering, but after a generation or two you'd better be "integrated".
Which isn't to say our immigrants should for communes and stay separated from the rest of the population. That's not working out so hot in Europe. But my point is we"re a melting pot and if you don't melt in you're weird. 'Cause why wouldn't you want to mingle and become the AWESOME AMERICANS we are.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
European countries might of been founders of colonies, but since your independence you have gone your own way. In today's America I see no connection with Europe. Europeans and Americans are very different people. Being here I have understood, Europeans, Africans, Middle-Easterns and Asian are much more close to each other than either is to the U.S. In the arbitrary number of 10,000 years of history I gave (because in reality there is no beginning and no end, it is just a continuum) much of those years were shared among all that side of the world. Therefore we all share the same roots as our history is a continuum from the roots.
U.S. history is sort of out of the continuum. As you say you guys are in a bubble, and you have lost many of your original customs. I don't blame the people but your system who has confused and mixed people up, used the idea of race on people, (for us race is something we use to qualify different sorts of dogs, not people).
People bought goods before 'consumerism', people placed capital into enterprises way before 'capitalism'. You don't have to name your system with those terms for these human exchanges to exist. In a sens 'consumerism' is not being able to buy mass produced goods, but a way for the system to control how it is done. In the same for 'capitalism', it is not so much it creates a source of capital for enterprises but a way to justify how the government can play with these notions.
A system is never named for what it is, because if it really is that way, it would be natural and invisible. Those names are used to make you guys look in the wrong direction.
What you guys know from news media cannot be trusted either. Having lived in many countries I have seen what the media does. It uses stories from other places to give an idea relevant to its own place, making the story as a general truth in that other place when in reality it is often an isolated anecdote. It then tries to use that story to give you a distorted view of things.
Because of this, when you say "but in Europe you have these problems", in reality we don't, YOU have them, and your media uses anecdotes in Europe to make you believe ideas relevant to the US, justifying its way of working.
I have learned to be very careful of what I say in the US because you don't like when people say you're not any more awesome than anywhere else :p If you can see something in what I'm telling you guys make it yours and take something positive about it, because I trust Americans on this forums are a bit more open minded than the 'mass'. Sometimes you have to destroy your image of your self to truly understand who you really are. Those who know it, feel it.
And remember only life is important. Not the stamp "capitalist' on your forehead, you will still be able to trade without it and maybe even more freely :p
My turn to cherry-pick: <a href="http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2011/10/i-feel-so-bad-why-dont-they-want-to-arrest-us.php" target="_blank">Yay for trying to get arrested!</a>
Also, something new I learned. Apparently we're required to get permits to stage protests/rallies/etc. even on public property?
<!--quoteo(post=1880093:date=Oct 15 2011, 08:05 PM:name=measles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (measles @ Oct 15 2011, 08:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1880093"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fourhorseys of the apopalipse.. Just saying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Got a bigger resolution version? I recognize that pic but can't read the text.
Re trusting our media: yeah, there's a reason I tend to grep my news from non-TV sources. And most of our newspapers aren't terribly hot either. Still, better than nothing, and definitely better than a bunch of fringe blogs who just spew silly biased crap. And for the rest of the fact checking I've got at least 20 other sites and cross-references and 2 or 3 news/politic junkie friends.
EDIT: as for "Europe has problems" I'd respond something something UK Riots and <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15271800" target="_blank">oh gods unemployment</a>
EDIT2: and for more being silly agitations jerks hiding in the OWS and de-legitimizing a useful movement: <a href="http://www.verumserum.com/?p=30720" target="_blank">stick foot under motorcycle?</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1880073:date=Oct 16 2011, 12:17 AM:name=Evil_bOb1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_bOb1 @ Oct 16 2011, 12:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1880073"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can't compare people with 10,000 years of history with others that have 500.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not. I'm comparing all the East European block where 90% of population remembers communism, queues, empty shelves, demonstrations and so on. Most of West Europeans and Americans simply had no such experience.
Example: leftist leader in Poland supported by left in France/Germany during 80s. He knew exactly that things demanded by his colleagues on the west were impossible to implement while westerners were happily living in capitalistic country with 10x higher standard of living and proposing these idiocies.
"Ultimately though we have two things going for us: We realize that there's a difference between communism and socialism, and we're not scared of the latter. "
That's most stupid statement I've ever heard. That's what I've been saying all the time. You're not scared because you don't know ###### and haven't been to anywhere where results are/were visible.
<!--quoteo(post=1880134:date=Oct 16 2011, 01:26 PM:name=Panigg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Panigg @ Oct 16 2011, 01:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1880134"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This not! I demand satisfaction! Acknowledge your mistelling or face repercussions. Good day sir. I SAID GOOD DAY SIR!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, the point is that all these things were caused by government (politicians) pretending to care to make it better for average person. Their goal in 99% cases is to get reelected by creating illusion of care about public. Public is there to vote and get exploited. :P
<!--quoteo(post=1880140:date=Oct 16 2011, 01:20 PM:name=MOOtant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MOOtant @ Oct 16 2011, 01:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1880140"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, the point is that all these things were caused by government (politicians) pretending to care to make it better for average person. Their goal in 99% cases is to get reelected by creating illusion of care about public. Public is there to vote and get exploited. :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My sarcasm is better in German (a blatant lie) I apologize for any confusion!
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1880097:date=Oct 15 2011, 10:46 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Oct 15 2011, 10:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1880097"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->EDIT: as for "Europe has problems" I'd respond something something UK Riots and <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15271800" target="_blank">oh gods unemployment</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah everywhere has problems, but they are each unique in their own way. Some of the symptoms may be similar (unemployment, protesting...) but still things are very different.
I remember a few years back when there was 'riots' back in France because two kids died in a power supply thingy running away from cops. There was a 'support' protest, mostly a manifestation of friends and family, and isolated, a few guys burnt some cars. This was a great story for international news media. I remember seeing a map of France on some American news showing a bunch of 'hot spots' where cars had burned and the news-teller saying how France is really in some kind of a civil war...
This map really makes you think so. All together something like 300 cars got burned. So you could speculate around 300 people where involved in this, that's 0.000005% of the population. So yes there was an incident but was it really as a serious deal that the media portrayed it? Can you really say a country is in unrest when 0.000005% of the population is burning cars?
This is just an example of how the media uses stories. Protests on Wall street are portrayed as so but they aren't really significant yet in my opinion, it doesn't represent the mass. It has an impact on American society because you never go out and manifest yourselves, its something different. This is just the beginning because there is no solution to the way things are currently, only a change in what people want could lead to something else, no 'official representative' will change anything because he is fed by the ones responsible.
I love the general attitude that politicians are there to earn money and because they don't care. I didn't realise America worked different to the rest of the world.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1880192:date=Oct 16 2011, 06:07 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Oct 16 2011, 06:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1880192"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I love the general attitude that politicians are there to earn money and because they don't care. I didn't realise America worked different to the rest of the world.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One of the biggest differences i see come from your credit system which is very unique. Said in a simple way; it is weird in the states to pay upfront while it is weird for us to use credits. I doesn't mean we don't have loans in Europe nor that no American pays upfront but loans are privileged for different reasons. Our banks can't trade local loans neither. We don't have pay-loans nor do we have car bonds. It cost roughly 400 euro a years for a full time student, while in the US it can be 2000 a 3credit class for one semester, so we don't have students loans like you do. America relies on dept while such practices are illegal in Europe.
I don't think the problem with politicians is that they don't care and just want money, the problem is you don't bite the hand that feeds you, and both parties in the US are equally financed by corporations rather than people. So they represent corporation's interests and not the people's. That is something frowned upon in Europe too. Lobbies are a form of legalized corruption.
Your court system is pretty ###### up too. Whats the point if 95% of cases are settled out of court because it is quicker and cheaper. Your court system has become a tool for the rich over the poor, and because money rules it, in the way we use words we call that corrupted. A fair court system should run equal independently from your resources. What is the point if the average American can't use its own court system because he can't afford a lawyer?
Another concept i find strange in the US is the 'law abiding citizen.' For us rules are a guideline and personal judgment considered superior. I got in some trouble here because I urgently needed to take a wiz so I went behind a bush. A cop saw me, thought I was suspicious went out to get me. Because I am a ninja I didn't notice him and was long gone before he arrived on spot. So he called his friends and there you go 4 cops each in their cars on the look out for me. They got me because I saw a line of cops rushing down the road, parked over to let them pass, I didn't know they were for we. Well this story is ridiculous!!! Seriously you guys have to grow up making such a deal out of little things. No cop will go to such extent because he saw someone pee in Europe. We all have to go don't we, why you make it sound as if I acted in danger to society? And its the same for a lot of things. We don't have laws on how we have to keep our front yard, and we haven't had curfews since the nazi's invaded us (I got another story with cops here :p).
So yeah the US is very very different from the rest of the world. I once saw some mozzarella here supposedly made out of real cheese. This must be some sort of joke, or explain to me how you make cheese out of cheese? Only in America...
<!--quoteo(post=1880179:date=Oct 16 2011, 03:56 PM:name=Evil_bOb1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_bOb1 @ Oct 16 2011, 03:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1880179"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah everywhere has problems, but they are each unique in their own way. Some of the symptoms may be similar (unemployment, protesting...) but still things are very different.
I remember a few years back when there was 'riots' back in France because two kids died in a power supply thingy running away from cops. There was a 'support' protest, mostly a manifestation of friends and family, and isolated, a few guys burnt some cars. This was a great story for international news media. I remember seeing a map of France on some American news showing a bunch of 'hot spots' where cars had burned and the news-teller saying how France is really in some kind of a civil war...
This map really makes you think so. All together something like 300 cars got burned. So you could speculate around 300 people where involved in this, that's 0.000005% of the population. So yes there was an incident but was it really as a serious deal that the media portrayed it? Can you really say a country is in unrest when 0.000005% of the population is burning cars?
This is just an example of how the media uses stories. Protests on Wall street are portrayed as so but they aren't really significant yet in my opinion, it doesn't represent the mass. It has an impact on American society because you never go out and manifest yourselves, its something different. This is just the beginning because there is no solution to the way things are currently, only a change in what people want could lead to something else, no 'official representative' will change anything because he is fed by the ones responsible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1880446:date=Oct 18 2011, 07:16 AM:name=Rob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rob @ Oct 18 2011, 07:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1880446"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, uh. What did the cops do?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Clearly they were beating the will of the people with there authoritarian presence.
Most of what has been said on this subject is just people talking out of their ass so I am not taking it too seriously.
This is a straying off-topic a bit, but I have noticed people in the US seem to usually have no trust in the police, and certainly hold no love. What gives?
<!--quoteo(post=1880488:date=Oct 18 2011, 12:10 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Oct 18 2011, 12:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1880488"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a straying off-topic a bit, but I have noticed people in the US seem to usually have no trust in the police, and certainly hold no love. What gives?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, the job often pays a good amount of money and gives a good amount of power and tends to attract the type of personality that enjoys both. So there's a standing question of who holds the moral authority vs the state given authority. It creates some animosity. Unless you're talking about detectives. Detectives are the coolest people around.
Comments
The meat of the article wasn't that the founder is a fake, but that he has been a confirmed astroturfer at least twice in the past. Of course the hypocrisy makes for a more interesting title.
Here's the answer to it:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMhsyAjilBA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMhsyAjilBA</a>
Once again old thing applies. West Europeans and Americans have never seen what happens after years of socialism/communism and having no contact with reality they fly into stratosphere of idiocy. Oh, and they also buy Che Guevara T shirts.
You can't compare people with 10,000 years of history with others that have 500. The ones closest to reality are the ones with most history even if it makes us dwell on the past a bit too much. As a European living in the US, I see most Americans have no idea of what capitalism and socialism are, and I only meet people in College, you would think they have an education. The US relies heavily on propaganda stating that socialism or communism is the bad guys and democratic capitalism is the good guys. We know from our history the proper way is in balance not extremes. It doesn't matter what extreme you are in they are both a pitfall. In the same way did the USSR fall, shall be the way of the US, only inverted. You cannot fight the balancing laws of nature, nor the Higher One's sens of humor.
The only beneficial country nowadays is china, they have a very long history in balance, the yin yang a center symbol of their consciousness. They are truly the ones who are going somewhere in this time.
Isn't it ironic for the US, that they now loan money from china, so the US can run its factories in china to sell the goods back home, so they can repay their dept to china!? So who has the real understanding of economics here and who is the slave?
I do think that the kinds of moderate socialism practised in many european countries has potential, but Europe is currently mired in bureaucracy and corruption courtesy of the EU. Don't expect us to teach the world, we're too busy fixing our own ###### to assume holier-than-thou stances and preach our gospel.
Ultimately though we have two things going for us: We realize that there's a difference between communism and socialism, and we're not scared of the latter. The scars of McCarthyism run deep in the US, and the right wing has successfully managed to equate any degree of socialism with totalitarian dictatorships. That's going to remain a problem for a while longer.
and who says they want communism? Its about not letting the Wallstreet criminals do whatever the fck they want - with money they just got from the ppl (the bailout). They need to be heavily controlled. Currently they are allowed to run a whole world against the wall, because they speculate like crazy. And THAT is what needs to be changed. They should only be allowed to play with money they actually DO have!
Not a word of communism. Watch less FOX ...
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh, and they also buy Che Guevara T shirts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Source ?
The only beneficial country nowadays is china... So who has the real understanding of economics here and who is the slave?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So like the bulk of the American population you made a trip across an ocean yet for some reason you retained your history while everyone else's odometer reset to zero? That is an interesting theory.
If China's economic growth dips below 8% the whole thing collapses like a ponzi scheme, not really the model I want to look to for stability.
If China's economic growth dips below 8% the whole thing collapses like a ponzi scheme, not really the model I want to look to for stability.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where you are born is clearly the most important factor. From all people I've met, all origins included, first generation will know their history because we lived with it, it lives in buildings, expressions, proverbs, music, dance, culture of our respective countries. Second generation will have lessons of their past but haven't lived with it as firsts have.
Where I'm from we say "with ifs you can put Paris in a bottle."
Edit: And you all are focusing on models, theories, solutions, demands and whatnot to understand yourselves and others. That view can help you see things but it narrows your vision to one dimension. Something I notice in a lot of Americans. The advantage of a big history is we don't rely as much on our current system to tell how it is. Life is more important and if we want to change system we do. France has had 15 different systems since the US has had one. Models and theories are just an expression of a time. Only life is eternal. You really have to put life in front and not the life your government has lent you, tells you it is protecting 'your lifestyle' when it is really protecting itself.
In a few hundred years you will understand :p I do have much more 'compassion' towards Americans from when I first came here. If history does repeat itself, you will go through dark times and them will come to some sort of humanitarian renaissance. And then you will truly bring something positive to the world. Currently you guys are just vanity, greed and warmongers... ( i know I'm generalizing too, its not true for all, but still this is what i see and hear most of the time...)
However, I would point out that as Americans we stink at properly knowing history. Any history. Ours and Europe's.
I don't think it's the newness of the country though as much as the fact America has bought into a very interesting belief system. I'm not talking strictly religion, although that plays a part. I mean that 1) America is number 1 in the world, 2) consumerism is awesome (and capitalism, but most don't understand that word), and 3) did I mention we're awesome?
We seriously live in a stupid bubble on our continent here. In Europe you've got completely different nations a few hundred miles out. Us? We've got, Canada? Mexico? They're just backwards morons, right? I think it's that lack of dealing with others that messes us up the most. Sure we love new and interesting people entering, but after a generation or two you'd better be "integrated".
Which isn't to say our immigrants should for communes and stay separated from the rest of the population. That's not working out so hot in Europe. But my point is we"re a melting pot and if you don't melt in you're weird. 'Cause why wouldn't you want to mingle and become the AWESOME AMERICANS we are.
U.S. history is sort of out of the continuum. As you say you guys are in a bubble, and you have lost many of your original customs. I don't blame the people but your system who has confused and mixed people up, used the idea of race on people, (for us race is something we use to qualify different sorts of dogs, not people).
People bought goods before 'consumerism', people placed capital into enterprises way before 'capitalism'. You don't have to name your system with those terms for these human exchanges to exist. In a sens 'consumerism' is not being able to buy mass produced goods, but a way for the system to control how it is done. In the same for 'capitalism', it is not so much it creates a source of capital for enterprises but a way to justify how the government can play with these notions.
A system is never named for what it is, because if it really is that way, it would be natural and invisible. Those names are used to make you guys look in the wrong direction.
What you guys know from news media cannot be trusted either. Having lived in many countries I have seen what the media does. It uses stories from other places to give an idea relevant to its own place, making the story as a general truth in that other place when in reality it is often an isolated anecdote. It then tries to use that story to give you a distorted view of things.
Because of this, when you say "but in Europe you have these problems", in reality we don't, YOU have them, and your media uses anecdotes in Europe to make you believe ideas relevant to the US, justifying its way of working.
I have learned to be very careful of what I say in the US because you don't like when people say you're not any more awesome than anywhere else :p If you can see something in what I'm telling you guys make it yours and take something positive about it, because I trust Americans on this forums are a bit more open minded than the 'mass'. Sometimes you have to destroy your image of your self to truly understand who you really are. Those who know it, feel it.
And remember only life is important. Not the stamp "capitalist' on your forehead, you will still be able to trade without it and maybe even more freely :p
The fourhorseys of the apopalipse.. Just saying.
Also, something new I learned. Apparently we're required to get permits to stage protests/rallies/etc. even on public property?
<!--quoteo(post=1880093:date=Oct 15 2011, 08:05 PM:name=measles)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (measles @ Oct 15 2011, 08:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1880093"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fourhorseys of the apopalipse.. Just saying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Got a bigger resolution version? I recognize that pic but can't read the text.
Re trusting our media: yeah, there's a reason I tend to grep my news from non-TV sources. And most of our newspapers aren't terribly hot either. Still, better than nothing, and definitely better than a bunch of fringe blogs who just spew silly biased crap. And for the rest of the fact checking I've got at least 20 other sites and cross-references and 2 or 3 news/politic junkie friends.
EDIT: as for "Europe has problems" I'd respond something something UK Riots and <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15271800" target="_blank">oh gods unemployment</a>
EDIT2: and for more being silly agitations jerks hiding in the OWS and de-legitimizing a useful movement: <a href="http://www.verumserum.com/?p=30720" target="_blank">stick foot under motorcycle?</a>
I'm not. I'm comparing all the East European block where 90% of population remembers communism, queues, empty shelves, demonstrations and so on. Most of West Europeans and Americans simply had no such experience.
Example: leftist leader in Poland supported by left in France/Germany during 80s. He knew exactly that things demanded by his colleagues on the west were impossible to implement while westerners were happily living in capitalistic country with 10x higher standard of living and proposing these idiocies.
"Ultimately though we have two things going for us: We realize that there's a difference between communism and socialism, and we're not scared of the latter. "
That's most stupid statement I've ever heard. That's what I've been saying all the time. You're not scared because you don't know ###### and haven't been to anywhere where results are/were visible.
This not! I demand satisfaction! Acknowledge your mistelling or face repercussions. Good day sir. I SAID GOOD DAY SIR!
Also:
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/gIcqb9hHQ3E"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/gIcqb9hHQ3E" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Well, the point is that all these things were caused by government (politicians) pretending to care to make it better for average person. Their goal in 99% cases is to get reelected by creating illusion of care about public. Public is there to vote and get exploited. :P
My sarcasm is better in German (a blatant lie) I apologize for any confusion!
Yeah everywhere has problems, but they are each unique in their own way. Some of the symptoms may be similar (unemployment, protesting...) but still things are very different.
I remember a few years back when there was 'riots' back in France because two kids died in a power supply thingy running away from cops. There was a 'support' protest, mostly a manifestation of friends and family, and isolated, a few guys burnt some cars. This was a great story for international news media. I remember seeing a map of France on some American news showing a bunch of 'hot spots' where cars had burned and the news-teller saying how France is really in some kind of a civil war...
<img src="http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/20051108/france_burning.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<a href="http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/001362.html)" target="_blank">http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/001362.html)</a>
This map really makes you think so. All together something like 300 cars got burned. So you could speculate around 300 people where involved in this, that's 0.000005% of the population. So yes there was an incident but was it really as a serious deal that the media portrayed it? Can you really say a country is in unrest when 0.000005% of the population is burning cars?
This is just an example of how the media uses stories. Protests on Wall street are portrayed as so but they aren't really significant yet in my opinion, it doesn't represent the mass. It has an impact on American society because you never go out and manifest yourselves, its something different. This is just the beginning because there is no solution to the way things are currently, only a change in what people want could lead to something else, no 'official representative' will change anything because he is fed by the ones responsible.
Just bad that this will naturally lead to opression... you know freedom of the press and stuff.
One of the biggest differences i see come from your credit system which is very unique. Said in a simple way; it is weird in the states to pay upfront while it is weird for us to use credits. I doesn't mean we don't have loans in Europe nor that no American pays upfront but loans are privileged for different reasons. Our banks can't trade local loans neither. We don't have pay-loans nor do we have car bonds. It cost roughly 400 euro a years for a full time student, while in the US it can be 2000 a 3credit class for one semester, so we don't have students loans like you do. America relies on dept while such practices are illegal in Europe.
I don't think the problem with politicians is that they don't care and just want money, the problem is you don't bite the hand that feeds you, and both parties in the US are equally financed by corporations rather than people. So they represent corporation's interests and not the people's. That is something frowned upon in Europe too. Lobbies are a form of legalized corruption.
Your court system is pretty ###### up too. Whats the point if 95% of cases are settled out of court because it is quicker and cheaper. Your court system has become a tool for the rich over the poor, and because money rules it, in the way we use words we call that corrupted. A fair court system should run equal independently from your resources. What is the point if the average American can't use its own court system because he can't afford a lawyer?
Another concept i find strange in the US is the 'law abiding citizen.' For us rules are a guideline and personal judgment considered superior. I got in some trouble here because I urgently needed to take a wiz so I went behind a bush. A cop saw me, thought I was suspicious went out to get me. Because I am a ninja I didn't notice him and was long gone before he arrived on spot. So he called his friends and there you go 4 cops each in their cars on the look out for me. They got me because I saw a line of cops rushing down the road, parked over to let them pass, I didn't know they were for we. Well this story is ridiculous!!! Seriously you guys have to grow up making such a deal out of little things. No cop will go to such extent because he saw someone pee in Europe. We all have to go don't we, why you make it sound as if I acted in danger to society? And its the same for a lot of things. We don't have laws on how we have to keep our front yard, and we haven't had curfews since the nazi's invaded us (I got another story with cops here :p).
So yeah the US is very very different from the rest of the world. I once saw some mozzarella here supposedly made out of real cheese. This must be some sort of joke, or explain to me how you make cheese out of cheese? Only in America...
I remember a few years back when there was 'riots' back in France because two kids died in a power supply thingy running away from cops. There was a 'support' protest, mostly a manifestation of friends and family, and isolated, a few guys burnt some cars. This was a great story for international news media. I remember seeing a map of France on some American news showing a bunch of 'hot spots' where cars had burned and the news-teller saying how France is really in some kind of a civil war...
<img src="http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/20051108/france_burning.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<a href="http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/001362.html)" target="_blank">http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/001362.html)</a>
This map really makes you think so. All together something like 300 cars got burned. So you could speculate around 300 people where involved in this, that's 0.000005% of the population. So yes there was an incident but was it really as a serious deal that the media portrayed it? Can you really say a country is in unrest when 0.000005% of the population is burning cars?
This is just an example of how the media uses stories. Protests on Wall street are portrayed as so but they aren't really significant yet in my opinion, it doesn't represent the mass. It has an impact on American society because you never go out and manifest yourselves, its something different. This is just the beginning because there is no solution to the way things are currently, only a change in what people want could lead to something else, no 'official representative' will change anything because he is fed by the ones responsible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eh? <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2005_French_civil_unrest" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_t...ch_civil_unrest</a>
Thousands of vehicles were burned.
[edit] main article: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_French_civil_unrest" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_French_civil_unrest</a>
Clearly they were beating the will of the people with there authoritarian presence.
Most of what has been said on this subject is just people talking out of their ass so I am not taking it too seriously.
Well, the job often pays a good amount of money and gives a good amount of power and tends to attract the type of personality that enjoys both. So there's a standing question of who holds the moral authority vs the state given authority. It creates some animosity. Unless you're talking about detectives. Detectives are the coolest people around.