Theres a pretty simple workaround to this which will only delay your RT by probably 5s, just send it through loading so it takes the loading balcony into tech. this exposes your drifter for only 1 or 2 secs and if Marines want to rush Tech they`ll kill it anyway, which on the other Hand gives Aliens other opportunities tho this goes to deep into strategizing :D
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
Hehehe nice stuff! I love that you guys are still finding new tactics on the map, I guess I achieved my main goal of as much tactics of you can think of :D I think this shows how a team's awareness about the map is where the skill is in this context. I really wanted to create a map which a setting for action more than defining where things would happen. That is why the map is 'confusing' because if it was straightforward, then what would there be to learn? ;)
With the versions though and playing with you guys, I have learned that you need a minimum of qualities for each space and then they can become used for many things (like when we look at current issues of tech and service, which I had planned more as chokepoints and you guys started to use them tactically, so those areas need more space so they can really be usable. It is interesting to have places like that where you would never think the team could use tactically and so you can surprise your enemy but "for good design" there should be designed spaces for it and then if the team wants to play something tricky give them that chance in the map. (NS2HD's vid where you used a hidden obs in those stairs was real nice!)
On the topic of the drifter denial, I think it is a valuable tactic. I do agree that it is a little difficult for drifters to get there as they take a long route. I does add a little challenge for aliens, it's not something you have in other maps, usually drifters stay behind the front line. If you are really scared of the marine team doing that, alien com can always micromanage the drifter through loading. I'm sure the travel time is about the same just a little bit longer, that is why the drifter goes the other way they take the shortest route.
With the changes I am planing for tech/loading it will be easier though, drifters will be able to go from cargo to tech. I have also though of new vents for the map. Long (dark?) straight vents marines could use, which get you across a long distance so aliens can pop up on the other side of the map but if there's a marine in them he could snipe you from afar. Maybe some indents in those vents like in railway tunnels so aliens can cover a bit.
On a side note, I know onos can get stuck in tech, but I was wondering if you guys have played the map with 'gorilla' and how that adds a layer gameplay to the map? Have you guys seen an onos come at you from a passage he barely fit through and you seen him take full stance in the room? :D What about a jetpack attack on cargo? :D
Had some Jetpack games as well as Onos ones, tho the game usually evolves around the 2nd hive, if Aliens get it up its usually gg for rines, if Aliens dont its the other Way. Not sure if its Map related or in general, but one thing favoring 2 hive Aliens a lot is the way exposed Quarter(MS) power node which Swalk mentioned as well. Same goes for the dbl powernode in Engine, would be really nice to relocate the Loading one actually into Loading ^^. And probably move the Engine one down to the big, Engine looking thing on the base floor of that room and prbly make it power Reactor View. Just some thoughts
Just watched this amazing game!!! Very well played marines!!!
Yeah I will do something about those points Scrajm. Watching those games, maybe I won't change service :p The power from bridge with the space between cargo, you guys are figuring the strategic value of it ;) Making space in service for phasegate is pretty redundant you have that space between Cargo, service and bridge.
I am still pretty uncertain what I REALLY need to change, especially the more games I watch. I watch all the recorded matches you guys have on the map. All the points you guys are making are valuable but sometimes the solution to your problems is already in the map. You have the idea, you just need to find the right places for it :p There are some things I know already the change that will be done, others I am still pondering about the proper solution to the problem.
But no fret, there will be a revised version in the future, maybe what I'll do is create phoenix and revise turtle after that. To take turtle to the next level and make it of divine nature :p I have to be really patient about it so that the changes are not just changes for the sake of it but real additions to complete the infinite tactical game experience :p
/
Concerning the MS power... This does allow aliens to take advantage of a marine team that is not careful, it still can be defended from a distance. The question to ask here, is if it was moved, does an uncareful marine team have more chances of protecting it from a ninja skulk? I feel that if I move it too much into the marine base, then it won't have any tactical value.
<a href="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12784365/ns2_turtle_b2a.zip" target="_blank">http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12784365/ns2_turtle_b2a.zip</a> Hope i uploaded everything correct...
Changes:
- Moved gate RT a little, so skulks are not blocked by its feet anymore. (needed to rebuilt a bit geometry) - Loading powernode is now in loading (so if marines manage to relocate into loading, they got a better chance to defend their powernode) - Some other minor changes (like lights in gate, and some lightprops on doors that blocked onos movement...) - New minimap, because overview.exe works. (looks good but doesnt show vents :/)
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2012
Cool!! :D I think people will be very happy you did this and I'm going to take a look because I am very curious about the changes you did.
I will update this version to the duplexgaming page as this version is surely more playable and adapted to 195 with Onos.
I love you Koruyo! As my take for the next version is going to wait for more changes before I will release, so doing this you have done something great for the players until that day!
/
And the minimap does look cool!! The minimap I did was a real photoshop hack! Using commander height maps from previous versions and 'printscreens' from the editor put to scale again using old versions :p
FYI, the overview generator ignores the CommanderInvisible group. If you want to create a minimap with the vents, delete the group and relaunch the overview generator ;) I'm sure you know about what to save and what not, or what to backup, or what to rename to a new file :p
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1901922:date=Feb 10 2012, 10:46 PM:name=Evil_bOb1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evil_bOb1 @ Feb 10 2012, 10:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901922"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cool!! :D I think people will be very happy you did this and I'm going to take a look because I am very curious about the changes you did.
I will update this version to the duplexgaming page as this version is surely more playable and adapted to 195 with Onos.
I love you Koruyo! As my take for the next version is going to wait for more changes before I will release, so doing this you have done something great for the players until that day!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nice effort Koruyo, thanks! I can't wait for your next version evilbob! I, for one, am very excited about it!
I'm glad its not a problem, after i heard that we are allowed to change the map I figured that would be a cool way to start getting to know the editor a bit.
And holy ###### - respect! I couldn't imagine how much time and work it really is to get a map in such a shape... (judging by how long it took me to rebuild the ground under the gate rt, the way i wanted it)
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
hahaha yeah. Create a few lines, apply a texture correctly, check it out, modify it a bit to your liking, and you have already seen an hour go by :p
I am glad people can use the map as a learning tool, UWE's map are really rich and complicated and it can be hard to understand what they did to create a space if you don't have previous knowledge. Turtle is a bit more straight forward, it is even a bit oldschool in the design as it doesn't really try to imitate 'realism,' it is more a composition of geometric shapes which did allow me to shorten the two year development.
I am not joking when I say I started this map two years ago, the first designs i did in the thanksgiving holidays of 2009! But the more you get older the more a year seams like a short amount of time, especially when you are busy. It is even hard for me to imagine it has been two years. The first post I did on the forums about it was when I started getting a complete greybox and it had already been more than a year in development.
I haven't really started working on b3 but I have been thinking a lot about it. Thinking is a great part of my development process and it is a luxury a professional environment sometimes doesn't have as they have to get something working quick. That layout I posted in the 'how much time does it take to make a map' thread has re-inspired me, combined with different suggestions and my idea of how I will change Tech. All these ideas are now connecting each other and serve the same purpose, I now have a pretty clear image of what I want to do.
When I think about it, I weigh each suggestion and regroup the ones that go together. The idea is to have a map that is a One, not a combination of many, So the changes I do have to go all in the same direction and serve the whole map. If a change is too local and is not connected to the whole, it won't serve the balance of the whole.
I am also glad that it doesn't really show how much work there is into it, but if someone starts to look deeper into it they will see.
I am so glad I have been able to share something that people can connect to :D
zombiehellmonkeyJoin Date: 2007-08-31Member: 62093Members, Squad Five Blue
Hey Bob, I can certainly appreciate the amount of work you put into this map! You deserve the dedicated following you have to your map. I think that serious gamers prefer a map like yours just because the spaces are more convoluted which creates more gameplay scenarios and strategies, unlike the official maps where the gameplay is pretty straight forward and clear like in a single player game, ie. you know where to expect the action.
I'm a big fan of the old school maps, as you can probably tell from my own style. If you decide to make a b3, I hope you keep that old school feel. Your b2 definitely has a rugged and durable look which I really like.
I love the detail on the floor and around the resource point, but it seems you lacked on the ceiling considerably, it looks very flat and void of any detail. Which is a shame considering opposite it on the floor the brush work is great.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
b2 is my colorbox. I refine and edit directly on what I have. Spark is amazing for that and maybe I should do a video of how I work to show you guys.
Can anyone point me to a good recording freeware? I have tried fraps but it only records the active window so you can't see what tools I use but I could always add some captions on youtube...
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
Could you kindly update the download link to "b" like the one in your signature, to help the people who arent techsavvy find the link. the direct download still gives the old file.
Well, so I guess b3 has officially started. Feeling a bit intimidated by my own map, and the planned changes, I started with something simple.
<img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42877240/mappics/gateb3.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow, that is pure awesomeness! A perfect solution! :D Looking great, keep going mate :D
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
I just noticed that the download counter on the duplex site passed 600. I think it shows how grateful the community is for your map! Congratulations and keep up the good work, we are looking forward to b3!
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
Thanks Arga! I am very pleased myself to have had the opportunity to develop a map and for this I am very grateful for UWE and to the community :D The games on the gathers have been amazing fun! The way you guys have embraced it and the strategies you have developed on it never ceases to amaze me!
It just wouldn't of been possible without you all!
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
I just got an idea. How about adding a ladder in service, in the powernode area? That way you could place a phase gate up there, and marines would still be able to get to it if they jumped down.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
That is the idea but ladders weren't implemented yet back then. ;)
I will probably add a few ladders here and there now that they're in, but not everywhere where there is a height differences as some places should be more alien friendly, like the big vent from Tech to Cargo.
I like vents that marines can use, I will probably add another somewhere they are fun yet dangerous! I often get caught from behind as a marine in the one in loading, but they provide a certain experience. Once I remember I was in that vent while the team was attacking the hive from above but they all got killed and the hive was left with very few life and I finished it with the pistol from the vent! hehehe!
Added a ladder at the RT in service. Added a vent from loading into engine. (has a ladder in engine, so marines can get rid of gorges) Played around with lighting in Gate, Marinestart, Backup, Engine... used Ambient lights and removed many normal lights. (i got more fps in some areas because of that)
I know some ppl might not like the idea of a vent there, but lets test it i say... if the vent is too strong even tho marines can get in there via the ladder, and place mines whatever, editing the map to block the vent is a matter of seconds.
I would love to make bridge a bit more alien friendly, so it gets a real alternative to loading... problem is i would need to increase the walking time of marines(at least i think its mainly because you can reach it too fast as marines)... too much work(and im not really good at mapping anyway), so i rather wait for evils turtle_b3 :P
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2012
thanks koruyo! I am going to take a look and hope we can play this! I have some time to spare for mapping in the coming week, this will be very informing.
I was thinking of moving the tp in bridge a bit deeper , maybe where there is the power node, and move power in that case. Extend service a bit to the outside and make rt not as exposed, making service to bridge lower route a bit longer and moving to the extend. And, make the upper service to bridge route a vent. And a ladder there.
I have this crazy idea with ladders but I am not going to reveal yet!
/
I love what you did! The vent in engine! I love what you did with the lighting there too and it does seam to run smoother! I had some good fun jumping through tech and down bilge to radiator with new skulk jump/movement system!
I like the ladder placements too, I was thinking of those two and a few more and do a little something with them :p I will update duplexgaming page
The idea sounds good, i was thinking something similar - tho changing bridge seemed to massive for me...
PS: i need to figure out how groups and layers properly work, i messed around with it - while everything works fine still there is now quite a lot stuff linked to the "layer" layer... :P
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
Wow! I just checked the map's light entities in the editor! That is some clean job there Koruyo! I calculated you reduced the lights by a fourth, nice! Does run nice can't wait to get a game! :D
What I would do is make all layers apart from the layers layer invisible, change selection according to geometry, props, entities... deselect them from layers layers and add to a named layer.
Comments
With the versions though and playing with you guys, I have learned that you need a minimum of qualities for each space and then they can become used for many things (like when we look at current issues of tech and service, which I had planned more as chokepoints and you guys started to use them tactically, so those areas need more space so they can really be usable. It is interesting to have places like that where you would never think the team could use tactically and so you can surprise your enemy but "for good design" there should be designed spaces for it and then if the team wants to play something tricky give them that chance in the map. (NS2HD's vid where you used a hidden obs in those stairs was real nice!)
On the topic of the drifter denial, I think it is a valuable tactic. I do agree that it is a little difficult for drifters to get there as they take a long route. I does add a little challenge for aliens, it's not something you have in other maps, usually drifters stay behind the front line. If you are really scared of the marine team doing that, alien com can always micromanage the drifter through loading. I'm sure the travel time is about the same just a little bit longer, that is why the drifter goes the other way they take the shortest route.
With the changes I am planing for tech/loading it will be easier though, drifters will be able to go from cargo to tech. I have also though of new vents for the map. Long (dark?) straight vents marines could use, which get you across a long distance so aliens can pop up on the other side of the map but if there's a marine in them he could snipe you from afar. Maybe some indents in those vents like in railway tunnels so aliens can cover a bit.
On a side note, I know onos can get stuck in tech, but I was wondering if you guys have played the map with 'gorilla' and how that adds a layer gameplay to the map? Have you guys seen an onos come at you from a passage he barely fit through and you seen him take full stance in the room? :D What about a jetpack attack on cargo? :D
Not sure if its Map related or in general, but one thing favoring 2 hive Aliens a lot is the way exposed Quarter(MS) power node which Swalk mentioned as well. Same goes for the dbl powernode in Engine, would be really nice to relocate the Loading one actually into Loading ^^. And probably move the Engine one down to the big, Engine looking thing on the base floor of that room and prbly make it power Reactor View. Just some thoughts
PART1: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6wiST-LI0Y" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6wiST-LI0Y</a>
PART2: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPe1S5q7OdY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPe1S5q7OdY</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just watched this amazing game!!! Very well played marines!!!
Yeah I will do something about those points Scrajm. Watching those games, maybe I won't change service :p The power from bridge with the space between cargo, you guys are figuring the strategic value of it ;) Making space in service for phasegate is pretty redundant you have that space between Cargo, service and bridge.
I am still pretty uncertain what I REALLY need to change, especially the more games I watch. I watch all the recorded matches you guys have on the map. All the points you guys are making are valuable but sometimes the solution to your problems is already in the map. You have the idea, you just need to find the right places for it :p There are some things I know already the change that will be done, others I am still pondering about the proper solution to the problem.
But no fret, there will be a revised version in the future, maybe what I'll do is create phoenix and revise turtle after that. To take turtle to the next level and make it of divine nature :p I have to be really patient about it so that the changes are not just changes for the sake of it but real additions to complete the infinite tactical game experience :p
/
Concerning the MS power... This does allow aliens to take advantage of a marine team that is not careful, it still can be defended from a distance. The question to ask here, is if it was moved, does an uncareful marine team have more chances of protecting it from a ninja skulk? I feel that if I move it too much into the marine base, then it won't have any tactical value.
Hope i uploaded everything correct...
Changes:
- Moved gate RT a little, so skulks are not blocked by its feet anymore. (needed to rebuilt a bit geometry)
- Loading powernode is now in loading (so if marines manage to relocate into loading, they got a better chance to defend their powernode)
- Some other minor changes (like lights in gate, and some lightprops on doors that blocked onos movement...)
- New minimap, because overview.exe works. (looks good but doesnt show vents :/)
I will update this version to the duplexgaming page as this version is surely more playable and adapted to 195 with Onos.
I love you Koruyo! As my take for the next version is going to wait for more changes before I will release, so doing this you have done something great for the players until that day!
/
And the minimap does look cool!! The minimap I did was a real photoshop hack! Using commander height maps from previous versions and 'printscreens' from the editor put to scale again using old versions :p
FYI, the overview generator ignores the CommanderInvisible group. If you want to create a minimap with the vents, delete the group and relaunch the overview generator ;) I'm sure you know about what to save and what not, or what to backup, or what to rename to a new file :p
I will update this version to the duplexgaming page as this version is surely more playable and adapted to 195 with Onos.
I love you Koruyo! As my take for the next version is going to wait for more changes before I will release, so doing this you have done something great for the players until that day!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice effort Koruyo, thanks!
I can't wait for your next version evilbob! I, for one, am very excited about it!
And holy ###### - respect! I couldn't imagine how much time and work it really is to get a map in such a shape... (judging by how long it took me to rebuild the ground under the gate rt, the way i wanted it)
I love turtle, and cant wait for b3!
I am glad people can use the map as a learning tool, UWE's map are really rich and complicated and it can be hard to understand what they did to create a space if you don't have previous knowledge. Turtle is a bit more straight forward, it is even a bit oldschool in the design as it doesn't really try to imitate 'realism,' it is more a composition of geometric shapes which did allow me to shorten the two year development.
I am not joking when I say I started this map two years ago, the first designs i did in the thanksgiving holidays of 2009! But the more you get older the more a year seams like a short amount of time, especially when you are busy. It is even hard for me to imagine it has been two years. The first post I did on the forums about it was when I started getting a complete greybox and it had already been more than a year in development.
I haven't really started working on b3 but I have been thinking a lot about it. Thinking is a great part of my development process and it is a luxury a professional environment sometimes doesn't have as they have to get something working quick. That layout I posted in the 'how much time does it take to make a map' thread has re-inspired me, combined with different suggestions and my idea of how I will change Tech. All these ideas are now connecting each other and serve the same purpose, I now have a pretty clear image of what I want to do.
When I think about it, I weigh each suggestion and regroup the ones that go together. The idea is to have a map that is a One, not a combination of many, So the changes I do have to go all in the same direction and serve the whole map. If a change is too local and is not connected to the whole, it won't serve the balance of the whole.
I am also glad that it doesn't really show how much work there is into it, but if someone starts to look deeper into it they will see.
I am so glad I have been able to share something that people can connect to :D
I'm a big fan of the old school maps, as you can probably tell from my own style. If you decide to make a b3, I hope you keep that old school feel. Your b2 definitely has a rugged and durable look which I really like.
Congrats evilbob! :P
Any spoilers for b3? :D
Well, so I guess b3 has officially started. Feeling a bit intimidated by my own map, and the planned changes, I started with something simple.
<img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42877240/mappics/gateb3.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Well, so I guess b3 has officially started. Feeling a bit intimidated by my own map, and the planned changes, I started with something simple.
<img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42877240/mappics/gateb3.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very nice. Consider little blue lights on the res node to bring out the blue screen thingies.
Well, so I guess b3 has officially started. Feeling a bit intimidated by my own map, and the planned changes, I started with something simple.
<img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42877240/mappics/gateb3.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love the detail on the floor and around the resource point, but it seems you lacked on the ceiling considerably, it looks very flat and void of any detail. Which is a shame considering opposite it on the floor the brush work is great.
Can anyone point me to a good recording freeware? I have tried fraps but it only records the active window so you can't see what tools I use but I could always add some captions on youtube...
Latest link
Well, so I guess b3 has officially started. Feeling a bit intimidated by my own map, and the planned changes, I started with something simple.
<img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42877240/mappics/gateb3.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, that is pure awesomeness!
A perfect solution! :D
Looking great, keep going mate :D
It just wouldn't of been possible without you all!
How about adding a ladder in service, in the powernode area?
That way you could place a phase gate up there, and marines would still be able to get to it if they jumped down.
I will probably add a few ladders here and there now that they're in, but not everywhere where there is a height differences as some places should be more alien friendly, like the big vent from Tech to Cargo.
I like vents that marines can use, I will probably add another somewhere they are fun yet dangerous! I often get caught from behind as a marine in the one in loading, but they provide a certain experience. Once I remember I was in that vent while the team was attacking the hive from above but they all got killed and the hive was left with very few life and I finished it with the pistol from the vent! hehehe!
Added a ladder at the RT in service.
Added a vent from loading into engine. (has a ladder in engine, so marines can get rid of gorges)
Played around with lighting in Gate, Marinestart, Backup, Engine... used Ambient lights and removed many normal lights. (i got more fps in some areas because of that)
I know some ppl might not like the idea of a vent there, but lets test it i say... if the vent is too strong even tho marines can get in there via the ladder, and place mines whatever, editing the map to block the vent is a matter of seconds.
I would love to make bridge a bit more alien friendly, so it gets a real alternative to loading... problem is i would need to increase the walking time of marines(at least i think its mainly because you can reach it too fast as marines)... too much work(and im not really good at mapping anyway), so i rather wait for evils turtle_b3 :P
I was thinking of moving the tp in bridge a bit deeper , maybe where there is the power node, and move power in that case. Extend service a bit to the outside and make rt not as exposed, making service to bridge lower route a bit longer and moving to the extend. And, make the upper service to bridge route a vent. And a ladder there.
I have this crazy idea with ladders but I am not going to reveal yet!
/
I love what you did! The vent in engine! I love what you did with the lighting there too and it does seam to run smoother! I had some good fun jumping through tech and down bilge to radiator with new skulk jump/movement system!
I like the ladder placements too, I was thinking of those two and a few more and do a little something with them :p I will update duplexgaming page
Made a litte video...
The idea sounds good, i was thinking something similar - tho changing bridge seemed to massive for me...
PS: i need to figure out how groups and layers properly work, i messed around with it - while everything works fine still there is now quite a lot stuff linked to the "layer" layer... :P
What I would do is make all layers apart from the layers layer invisible, change selection according to geometry, props, entities... deselect them from layers layers and add to a named layer.
I really need to know how to do efficeint lighting, sounds like I should check Koruyo's version..