swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1914015:date=Mar 16 2012, 09:28 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 16 2012, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914015"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Onoses kill turrets in a few hits, or you can just go right for the power node, or you can smash the turrets to disable them while you beat them up as an onos.
Basically onoses are the best siege weapon, get a few of them and crush the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, onos is a great siege weapon. But they require 3 hives, and they are often not enough to break it. Currently the aliens are too slow/weak at getting bases down. And they shouldn't be required to have 3 hives to be able to take turrets down properly. I know how the game plays, you don't need to give me lessons.
after b200 gorge feel a bit weak. also you can do nothing if enemys build a "siege outpost" in the next room. for example in the crushing room at mineshaft, the only thing you can do as alien to prevent dying about mines/GL/marine shooting, is spitting through the hole (did it sound that dirty how it feels to write?). If you run as skulk or more in the room, you die so fast.
Aliens have no way to kill structures in a next room, except if a gorge is protected by other aliens to bilebomb from distance the structures. With lerk its like impossible, because the bilbebomb did so less damage and you can not use it all time. Also the lerk have to be very close, one shotgunshot he is dead. I realy don't understand the move UWE did with the lerk, he has not much health and is such a easy target. He is forced to close fights and he will die for sure. Spikes are great to counter marines and i love the "sticky" thing if you are lerk, but bilebomb is right now very tricky and if something that important is that tricky but not very effective, whats the point for it to keep it?
Anyway, UWE said that the gorge get 2 new structures and one new ability. So there is comming more.
<!--quoteo(post=1914015:date=Mar 16 2012, 09:28 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 16 2012, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914015"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Onoses kill turrets in a few hits, or you can just go right for the power node, or you can smash the turrets to disable them while you beat them up as an onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is not a thread about the onos. Onos cost 75 res, req. 3 hives. Also the counterpart to onos will be heavy armor marines with miniguns.
<!--quoteo(post=1914015:date=Mar 16 2012, 09:28 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 16 2012, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914015"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically onoses are the best siege weapon, get a few of them and crush the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh and by the way, play onos, you will see its hard with more onos"es" attacking marines if the room is small. because everything everyone blocks you. also like i said, onos is very expensive, its compared to the arc i guess how Grenade launcher should be compared to bilebomb.
<!--quoteo(post=1914026:date=Mar 16 2012, 04:52 PM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Mar 16 2012, 04:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914026"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I haven't used the new bile bomb but seeing it in action looked cool.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's cool, but don't expect to use it in the same way that the gorge used to be able to use it. It's now more of a hit and run type of ability, doing damage over time to armor and buildings. Also, it can only be used while flying.
<!--quoteo(post=1913963:date=Mar 16 2012, 11:14 AM:name=Ejquinn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ejquinn @ Mar 16 2012, 11:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913963"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So your mad because now you have to play the builder class like a builder class? Your job is to heal and build. Even then you can kill a marine who picks a fight with you pretty easily. I don't think anyone here would tone down the importance of a gorge on the team. Gorges are much more useful building and healing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For me, the issue is that the Gorge's builder role is neither sufficiently active nor sufficiently productive.
Productivity: In NS1, you were running around, building resource nodes, setting up defense, setting up areas for your people to heal. I always felt like I was a hugely significant contributor to my team due to my building. My current options are cysts to expand creep a little and hydras, which only keep people out if you have a ton of them and are hugely cost-ineffective (5 hydras does not have the value of a fade). I know the gorge will be getting more things later, but right now he stinks.
Activeness: If I have 50 p.res. and go gorge, I only have enough remaining to build a few things...then there are long periods of waiting for more res and roaming around a bit hoping to find allies who need healing or being a minor nuisance to attacking marines. It's more reactive than active.
<!--quoteo(post=1914021:date=Mar 16 2012, 08:40 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Mar 16 2012, 08:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914021"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, onos is a great siege weapon. But they require 3 hives, and they are often not enough to break it. Currently the aliens are too slow/weak at getting bases down. And they shouldn't be required to have 3 hives to be able to take turrets down properly. I know how the game plays, you don't need to give me lessons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the marines can afford to turret farm two bases and an extractor, they can't afford any weapons or upgrades.
If they can't afford to turret farm two bases and an extractor, you can ignore the turret farms and kill all their resources, then get 3 hives and kill them.
Aliens don't need to be able to kill turret farms, because turret farms are a self defeating strategy.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1914024:date=Mar 16 2012, 12:44 PM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Mar 16 2012, 12:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914024"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also the lerk have to be very close, one shotgunshot he is dead. I realy don't understand the move UWE did with the lerk, he has not much health and is such a easy target.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this. its my single complaint with a life form i love. the lerk is forced to be in up close combat situations (Read: group of marines or a base typically) due to his given weapons which are area based and structure based now. Yet he dies in a single shotgun hit. Its 30 res! why should a 30 res life form thats <i>meant to be combative in a room with marines, spraying an area weapon</i> die in a single shot!? its just incredibly <b>frustrating</b> and is why people go fade instead.
Give him more HP. and if you are concerned he will be too much of an offensive force, remove his spikes as currently the spikes are not very effective, they are inaccurate, they have non intuitive requirements on distance, they don't work well in crowds or alongside it's other area weapons. Then put umbra spores in it's place.
<i><b>There </b></i>- its an area denial / support class that can't be too offense based against players, role confusion fixed.
Erm, a lerk without any means of direct attack? What's the point in that?
Spikes work really well, just don't sit in front of the marine like a ninny expecting to out DPS them, sit at the side and shoot them while they're distracted, or from a place of safety.
I have to totally agree with the OP. Bile bomb should be kept for the gorge. I mean the lerk already has the spike attacks. It just doesn't work well imo. If anything have it to where bile bombs for gorges can only be available with 2 hives. I vote NAY for Lerk bile bombs.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
The gorge was most certainly broken, but we all just accepted that fact cause it was fun in certain circumstances. With respect to bilebomb, I found gorge gameplay to be a combination of spam and 'finding the exploit'. For example, one effective bilebomb tactic was to sneak into/onto a high location in a marine base, evolve to gorge, and rain bilebomb destruction. Most often this was a vent in which it was hard for marines to kill you from (think vent next to warehouse technode on tram). Another was to simply suicide bilebomb rush a marine base repeatedly. You could usually take out something worth 10 TRes or at least do sufficient enough damage such that the next rush you could kill stuff worth 20 TRes.
Gorge bilebomb also promoted conflicting issues when attacking a base as a team. In most situations, I found it better to simply heal the lerks/fades/onoses (since keeping them alive is how you stay alive) then trying to bilebomb anything.
The role confusion issue was both a real and serious problem with the gorge. Its like if Valve created a class in TF2 that had all the engineer abilities + the medic's medi-gun + the demoman's grenade launcher. Not only would it create confusion for new players on what that class is supposed to do, it would be devilishly hard to balance.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1914040:date=Mar 16 2012, 01:19 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 16 2012, 01:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spikes work really well,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats it. you and me, buddy. lets go on my server and we'll test this theory of yours and record it. Cuz i call bs. :) i bet you $20 i can kill you with a 0 pres marine before you kill me - deal?
<!--quoteo(post=1914035:date=Mar 16 2012, 10:12 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 16 2012, 10:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914035"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the marines can afford to turret farm two bases and an extractor, they can't afford any weapons or upgrades.
If they can't afford to turret farm two bases and an extractor, you can ignore the turret farms and kill all their resources, then get 3 hives and kill them.
Aliens don't need to be able to kill turret farms, because turret farms are a self defeating strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, they're not. Just think about the early/midgame. Sentries are very effictive against almost everything, even fades fear them. When the marine comm spams turrets all over the placing, covering each of them with another sentry then you actually have no way to break that turret farm without dying hundred of times.
Please don't tell me that you expect the alien team should only use a onos to break a turret farm... that's kind of ridiculous. Marines can completely lock off certain parts of the map, no matter how big or small the room is. The powernodes are hidden placed that you can't just snipe them off as lerk. You even can't fly in a room as lerk to mass-bilebomb everything, you die too fast even when there is no marine around, only turrets.
Turrets are too cheap compared to hydras for the amount of damage they do.
There is currently no way for aliens to breakthrough. Turrets vs any lifeform ( except onos ) is not a fair match-up if you ask me :P Gorge was the perfect solution. There is almost a gorge around which could help your team break a siege. A good and organized marine team could always push a gorge back as the bilebombs consumes so much energy that he can't keep him alive with healspray while retreating. This was the perfect trade-off: Supporting your teammates with healspray or attacking the enemies base.
<!--quoteo(post=1914054:date=Mar 16 2012, 05:40 PM:name=cH40z-Lord)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cH40z-Lord @ Mar 16 2012, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, they're not. Just think about the early/midgame. Sentries are very effictive against almost everything, even fades fear them. When the marine comm spams turrets all over the placing, covering each of them with another sentry then you actually have no way to break that turret farm without dying hundred of times.
Please don't tell me that you expect the alien team should only use a onos to break a turret farm... that's kind of ridiculous. Marines can completely lock off certain parts of the map, no matter how big or small the room is. The powernodes are hidden placed that you can't just snipe them off as lerk. You even can't fly in a room as lerk to mass-bilebomb everything, you die too fast even when there is no marine around, only turrets.
Turrets are too cheap compared to hydras for the amount of damage they do.
There is currently no way for aliens to breakthrough. Turrets vs any lifeform ( except onos ) is not a fair match-up if you ask me :P Gorge was the perfect solution. There is almost a gorge around which could help your team break a siege. A good and organized marine team could always push a gorge back as the bilebombs consumes so much energy that he can't keep him alive with healspray while retreating. This was the perfect trade-off: Supporting your teammates with healspray or attacking the enemies base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very well said sir. This is the issue i dont think people see. Lerk gets raped by sents. So how will you deal with it? Gorge could go off and kill this stuff, because of the range. I hope to see it back. But who knows the game keep being rebuilt over and over.
Lerk it applies when you need to bomb from above. Gorge it applies when you you need it from that level.
seriously ... why is always the one or the other mentality? Even when comparing Gorge and Alien Commander Why can't they both do a bunch of the same things...and have a couple things different.
<!--quoteo(post=1914054:date=Mar 16 2012, 09:40 PM:name=cH40z-Lord)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cH40z-Lord @ Mar 16 2012, 09:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, they're not. Just think about the early/midgame. Sentries are very effictive against almost everything, even fades fear them. When the marine comm spams turrets all over the placing, covering each of them with another sentry then you actually have no way to break that turret farm without dying hundred of times.
Please don't tell me that you expect the alien team should only use a onos to break a turret farm... that's kind of ridiculous. Marines can completely lock off certain parts of the map, no matter how big or small the room is. The powernodes are hidden placed that you can't just snipe them off as lerk. You even can't fly in a room as lerk to mass-bilebomb everything, you die too fast even when there is no marine around, only turrets.
Turrets are too cheap compared to hydras for the amount of damage they do.
There is currently no way for aliens to breakthrough. Turrets vs any lifeform ( except onos ) is not a fair match-up if you ask me :P Gorge was the perfect solution. There is almost a gorge around which could help your team break a siege. A good and organized marine team could always push a gorge back as the bilebombs consumes so much energy that he can't keep him alive with healspray while retreating. This was the perfect trade-off: Supporting your teammates with healspray or attacking the enemies base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Go around.
The most marines can do is block off a certain route from one direction. So go around.
The large the area they want to secure, the more entrances they need to block off.
It very quickly becomes entirely impractical to block off access to a large area without spending massive amounts of money, and still ending up with no defences if anything actually does get past.
And of course this assumes perfect completely unavoidable coverage, I find it quite easy to fly past as lerk, or even sneak past as skulk, it's really hard to cover areas properly with turrets with the complexiy of map geometry, and very easy to kill them once you do get out of their firing cone. Fades in particular can just teleport right past them, they're almost uselss against fades.
You can't always go around. Marines just need to place a single turret in front of the vent and it's almost covered. If the skulk or lerk still manages to slip through then he'll run for sure into more turrets that will kill him instantly ( even with carapace ).
Face a turret as skulk and you will mostly not survive - Lerks don't have that much more health and armor, they die pretty fast as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1914044:date=Mar 17 2012, 08:23 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Mar 17 2012, 08:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914044"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With respect to bilebomb, I found gorge gameplay to be a combination of spam and 'finding the exploit'. Most often this was a vent in which it was hard for marines to kill you from (think vent next to warehouse technode on tram).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok well a few points i will have to disagree with you on. First of all, vents or unreachable perches out of LOS in marine base are inherently imbalanced. They are inherently exploitative in nature and bad ns map design 101. As a gorge, instead of bilebomb i could very much as easily hydra spam and heal from the unreachable location. Removing bilebomb from the gorge does not fix bad map design that is also exploitable by lerks and skulks. In regards to spam, this is pretty weak and could be applied to any of the other functions of the gorge whether it be healspray spamming, cyst spamming, hydra spamming.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another was to simply suicide bilebomb rush a marine base repeatedly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> On the issue of suicide gorging. This issue stopped being a problem when bilebomb damage was reduced, obs uncloaked ninja gorges, and welders were introduced. The only reason bilebomb was a problem back then was because it did too much damage, gorges were able to sneak into the marine base undetected every single time, and any damage was unrepairable without significant marine investment of tres. Gorge bilebomb was a problem because of <b>balance</b> factors, not because the <b>design</b> was inherently flawed.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gorge bilebomb also promoted conflicting issues when attacking a base as a team. In most situations, I found it better to simply heal the lerks/fades/onoses (since keeping them alive is how you stay alive) then trying to bilebomb anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't see the conflict. You either heal your teammates or you bilebomb. What conflict? If you find it more effective to heal your teammates, you have that choice. Your situation and the decisions you would then make pre and post bilebomb removal are the same so the question begs to be asked - what exactly was the conflict with bilebomb?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The role confusion issue was both a real and serious problem with the gorge. Its like if Valve created a class in TF2 that had all the engineer abilities + the medic's medi-gun + the demoman's grenade launcher.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think TF2 examples are pretty weak. NS and TF are not by any standards similar in gameplay. I can't see how you can say that because having engineer, medic, and demoman abilities in TF2 is bad, its bad for the gorge to be able to build, heal and do whatever the demoman does. I dont play TF2 but its immediately obvious that there are reasons specific to TF2 why having such a class wouldn't work for example because that would actually mean two less classes.
In regard to role confusion, I'm sorry but with all respect I can't help but get the feeling that this same line I'm hearing from the PT's is strawman or rather, simply a way to rationalize a decision that wasnt thought through very clearly (see the sentry turret problem and the need for an alien ranged 'bilebomb'). NS1 gorges had to build every single structure and they had bilebomb. Talk about role confusion.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not only would it create confusion for new players on what that class is supposed to do, it would be devilishly hard to balance<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think its a very dangerous thing to start designing games with the assumption that your players arn't capable of intuitive learning and possess the IQ of a fried egg. Here is my gorge, i can spit, oh i can heal too? Oh whats this bilebomb thing? It damages buildings? Oh crap, i ran out of energy bilebombing! So..I need to juggle healing and bilebombing when with my teammates? It is intuitive and easily learned throughout the course of a game due to the pacing of bilebomb as a 2nd hive ability.
*edit* oh yes and after more thought, no i cannot see why it would be devilishly hard to balance bilebomb. Was bilebomb OP in 199? No, it wasnt materially OP in any way in and of itself. So what is there to balance but systematic factors that need to be balanced anyway such as vents in marine start or increased CC hp(this is a totally different topic i know). Perhaps i am missing why bilebomb would be so hard to balance and you didnt have the time to list them, but right now i am at a total loss for why it would be so.
<!--quoteo(post=1914047:date=Mar 16 2012, 03:28 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 16 2012, 03:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914047"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->thats it. you and me, buddy. lets go on my server and we'll test this theory of yours and record it. Cuz i call bs. :) i bet you $20 i can kill you with a 0 pres marine before you kill me - deal?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> i'll gladly take you up on that mate,
add me <a href="http://steamcommunity.com/id/hampton" target="_blank">http://steamcommunity.com/id/hampton</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1914040:date=Mar 16 2012, 01:19 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 16 2012, 01:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spikes work really well, just don't sit in front of the marine like a ninny expecting to out DPS them, sit at the side and shoot them while they're distracted, or from a place of safety.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That same strategy ("just ambush them when they're not looking or you have cover") works for any player in any game. I do NOT want to give the shotgun back to the lerk, I'd much rather the spikes be tuned up damagewise and have their spread reduced so that they fill a niche besides "run up and bite (shotgun) something."
Lerk bite/lerk shotgun (practically the same thing) were both implemented (IMO) because lerk spikes were insufficiently effective. Gorges don't really kill things that effectively, and Skulks/Fades/Onii are all forced into point-blank shotgun range due to the nature of their attacks. What's MISSING from the alien side is some sort of ranged fire support.
Now, if they gave lerks something like Acid Rocket, I'd be fine with having something like Bite/Shotgun come back, but the Lerk is currently the only thing on the alien list that doesn't have to walk right up to your face to make life hard (Gorge spit being a joke). When using spikes, I play lerk a little like a jetpacking marine with a HMG in NS1, and I like that a lot, but a marine with good aim, even with an LMG, can make that pretty difficult at the kind of range most fights occur in NS2 (the length of a hallway). Upping the lerk rate of fire, increasing the damage per spike, tightening the spread cone, or just reducing the energy drain so he can stay at high ROF continually would all go towards improving lerk performance.
<!--quoteo(post=1914145:date=Mar 16 2012, 05:43 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 16 2012, 05:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914145"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@hampton: added. lets do this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure it'll prove anything, but curious to find out how it went :)
<!--QuoteBegin-Twittar!+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Twittar!)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Beefing up Lerk bile bomb. It got nerfed during the transition to damage-over-time. 44 minutes ago<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sweeeeeet.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2012
we set our terms and rules only to find out in a quick "practice match" that hampton is my only nemesis in NS2, GORGEOUS GORGE!
we're friends now that we cleared things up, but for a moment there it was <i>treachery</i>! Him and shiv are generally the only two that give me a run for my money... so i might be losing this $20 .. but hey at least its in the name of <strike>SCIENCE</strike>! NS2 :-D
Dont feel like talking about bilebomb but the <b><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->L<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#48D1CC--><span style="color:#48D1CC"><!--/coloro-->E <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->R<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->K<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b> in general.
Im very unhappy with the <b><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->L<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#48D1CC--><span style="color:#48D1CC"><!--/coloro-->E <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->R<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->K<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>, in ns1 you could support from save places and dive in and quickly kill something if you wanted - now you have to dive in to support and stay behind or fly around them like a maniac to kill them...(and not get killed, since spiking someone to death takes quite some time)
The problem is that "dive-in support" just doesnt work out, its SUICIDE in situations where you would really need it => You DONT need <b><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->L<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#48D1CC--><span style="color:#48D1CC"><!--/coloro-->E <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->R<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->K<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b> gas against 1 or 2 marines, you could even kill them alone... but if there is a bigger group of marines, and <b><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->L<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#48D1CC--><span style="color:#48D1CC"><!--/coloro-->E <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->R<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->K<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b> gas would be awesome to harass and support your teammates you need to dive into them. Oo => thats a gamble with you life... usually its not worth risking your life so you end up flying in AFTER some skulks or whatever jumped in, to reduce the risk of you getting raped and losing 30pres.
Just because it looks cool and you wasted a lot work into the trailing spores and spikes, it doesnt mean it NEEDS to stay.
ANOTHER cool thing is, you dont scale into lategame(at least spikes dont), while armor upgrades only increase bites and swipes by 1-2 which takes maybe 2,3 seconds more to kill a marine - for a <b><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->L<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#48D1CC--><span style="color:#48D1CC"><!--/coloro-->E <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->R<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->K<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b> thats maybe 5-15s longer spiking, and if marines get medpacks you cant outdmg them - ever.
Make lerk gas range, and think about something to replace the normal spikes primary, maybe only shotguns spikes, bite? :p
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1914154:date=Mar 16 2012, 10:14 PM:name=Shrike3O)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrike3O @ Mar 16 2012, 10:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914154"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Beefing up Lerk bile bomb. It got nerfed during the transition to damage-over-time. 44 minutes ago<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sweeeeeet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You guys are welcome. I spent my whole evening on that.
Also just a note:
The Extractor for Marines are like 4k health and 550 armor. This structure has the most HP/Armor next to the CC itself due to its distance away from the base and the protection of most of the team. Lerks shouldn't be hitting Extractors unless with a Skulk or doing a run by (leave the Extractor chewing to the Skulks so that Lerks can be harassing groups of Marines or their base).
Also: With the possible new values though it cuts out 2/3's of the time it takes to kill an Extractor.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
thanks saba! lookin out for the lerk, as usual :)
@koruyo: the spores work well for his role, its just the tuning and balancing that need to be adjusted such as HP, feedback, res etc. your points are valid and accurate, but keeping the lerk "in combat" and not a sniper is a good idea if aliens are to be the melee team. How would you feel if his HP was increased, shotguns didnt do much dmg compared to lmg, and he only had umbra and spores which covered more surface area? would you like him then?
Increasing his durability doesnt work, dont you remember the lerk hide days?
Increased durability means he needs to be nerfed in dps or agility. And only having umbra and spores would be boring as hell, usefull for a team - sure, but not that fun to play. (besides umbra wont ever be a lifeform ability in ns2 - at least i dont see it beeing removed from the crag ever - and having the same ability twice in the game would be strange)
I would like him beeing more similar to the ns1 one, may it be bite, shotgun spikes or something similar - and the damage-support ability shouldnt be something were i need to get into the instakill range of marines. (the combination just worked better - fast agile, weak health, "passiv" support and a strong close combat dive-in finisher)
<!--quoteo(post=1914157:date=Mar 16 2012, 08:35 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 16 2012, 08:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914157"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->we set our terms and rules only to find out in a quick "practice match" that hampton is my only nemesis in NS2, GORGEOUS GORGE!
we're friends now that we cleared things up, but for a moment there it was <i>treachery</i>! Him and shiv are generally the only two that give me a run for my money<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So I guess all the time I spend ingesting the ankles of you and your upgraded teammates as an unupgraded skulk wasn't giving you a run for your money? I guess it is sort of hard to run with no legs. ^.^
<!--quoteo(post=1914167:date=Mar 17 2012, 02:00 PM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Mar 17 2012, 02:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914167"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You guys are welcome. I spent my whole evening on that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats great, it really is. This was one of the immediate concerns i had with lerk bilebomb. I didnt think it actually possible to get a good number (because its a dot) that wasn't totally countered by welders but wasn't also OP in that you couldn't weld the damage but you have found it and without increasing the stackability of lerk bilebomb.
However, this still doesnt solve our sentry turret problem. Nor does it solve the kamikaze problem of lerk fragility combined with short ranged bilebomb. And it certainly does not get the gorge out of the hive room.
*edit* I feel like if theres a divide between the PT's and most of the community as there seems to be now in regard to gorge having no bilebomb (lerk bilebomb aside), it is the PT's that have the ear of the developer which quite frankly puts the community in a position where they are told they are beta testers but not treated like so. I hope i am wrong :x.
Comments
Basically onoses are the best siege weapon, get a few of them and crush the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, onos is a great siege weapon. But they require 3 hives, and they are often not enough to break it.
Currently the aliens are too slow/weak at getting bases down.
And they shouldn't be required to have 3 hives to be able to take turrets down properly.
I know how the game plays, you don't need to give me lessons.
also you can do nothing if enemys build a "siege outpost" in the next room.
for example in the crushing room at mineshaft, the only thing you can do as alien to prevent dying about mines/GL/marine shooting, is spitting through the hole (did it sound that dirty how it feels to write?).
If you run as skulk or more in the room, you die so fast.
Aliens have no way to kill structures in a next room, except if a gorge is protected by other aliens to bilebomb from distance the structures.
With lerk its like impossible, because the bilbebomb did so less damage and you can not use it all time.
Also the lerk have to be very close, one shotgunshot he is dead.
I realy don't understand the move UWE did with the lerk, he has not much health and is such a easy target.
He is forced to close fights and he will die for sure.
Spikes are great to counter marines and i love the "sticky" thing if you are lerk, but bilebomb is right now very tricky and if something that important is that tricky but not very effective, whats the point for it to keep it?
Anyway, UWE said that the gorge get 2 new structures and one new ability.
So there is comming more.
<!--quoteo(post=1914015:date=Mar 16 2012, 09:28 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 16 2012, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914015"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Onoses kill turrets in a few hits, or you can just go right for the power node, or you can smash the turrets to disable them while you beat them up as an onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not a thread about the onos.
Onos cost 75 res, req. 3 hives.
Also the counterpart to onos will be heavy armor marines with miniguns.
<!--quoteo(post=1914015:date=Mar 16 2012, 09:28 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 16 2012, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914015"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically onoses are the best siege weapon, get a few of them and crush the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh and by the way, play onos, you will see its hard with more onos"es" attacking marines if the room is small.
because everything everyone blocks you.
also like i said, onos is very expensive, its compared to the arc i guess how Grenade launcher should be compared to bilebomb.
It's cool, but don't expect to use it in the same way that the gorge used to be able to use it. It's now more of a hit and run type of ability, doing damage over time to armor and buildings. Also, it can only be used while flying.
For me, the issue is that the Gorge's builder role is neither sufficiently active nor sufficiently productive.
Productivity: In NS1, you were running around, building resource nodes, setting up defense, setting up areas for your people to heal. I always felt like I was a hugely significant contributor to my team due to my building. My current options are cysts to expand creep a little and hydras, which only keep people out if you have a ton of them and are hugely cost-ineffective (5 hydras does not have the value of a fade). I know the gorge will be getting more things later, but right now he stinks.
Activeness: If I have 50 p.res. and go gorge, I only have enough remaining to build a few things...then there are long periods of waiting for more res and roaming around a bit hoping to find allies who need healing or being a minor nuisance to attacking marines. It's more reactive than active.
Currently the aliens are too slow/weak at getting bases down.
And they shouldn't be required to have 3 hives to be able to take turrets down properly.
I know how the game plays, you don't need to give me lessons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the marines can afford to turret farm two bases and an extractor, they can't afford any weapons or upgrades.
If they can't afford to turret farm two bases and an extractor, you can ignore the turret farms and kill all their resources, then get 3 hives and kill them.
Aliens don't need to be able to kill turret farms, because turret farms are a self defeating strategy.
I realy don't understand the move UWE did with the lerk, he has not much health and is such a easy target.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this. its my single complaint with a life form i love.
the lerk is forced to be in up close combat situations (Read: group of marines or a base typically) due to his given weapons which are area based and structure based now.
Yet he dies in a single shotgun hit. Its 30 res! why should a 30 res life form thats <i>meant to be combative in a room with marines, spraying an area weapon</i> die in a single shot!? its just incredibly <b>frustrating</b> and is why people go fade instead.
Give him more HP. and if you are concerned he will be too much of an offensive force, remove his spikes as currently the spikes are not very effective, they are inaccurate, they have non intuitive requirements on distance, they don't work well in crowds or alongside it's other area weapons. Then put umbra spores in it's place.
<i><b>There </b></i>- its an area denial / support class that can't be too offense based against players, role confusion fixed.
Spikes work really well, just don't sit in front of the marine like a ninny expecting to out DPS them, sit at the side and shoot them while they're distracted, or from a place of safety.
I vote NAY for Lerk bile bombs.
Gorge bilebomb also promoted conflicting issues when attacking a base as a team. In most situations, I found it better to simply heal the lerks/fades/onoses (since keeping them alive is how you stay alive) then trying to bilebomb anything.
The role confusion issue was both a real and serious problem with the gorge. Its like if Valve created a class in TF2 that had all the engineer abilities + the medic's medi-gun + the demoman's grenade launcher. Not only would it create confusion for new players on what that class is supposed to do, it would be devilishly hard to balance.
thats it. you and me, buddy. lets go on my server and we'll test this theory of yours and record it. Cuz i call bs. :)
i bet you $20 i can kill you with a 0 pres marine before you kill me - deal?
If they can't afford to turret farm two bases and an extractor, you can ignore the turret farms and kill all their resources, then get 3 hives and kill them.
Aliens don't need to be able to kill turret farms, because turret farms are a self defeating strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, they're not. Just think about the early/midgame. Sentries are very effictive against almost everything, even fades fear them. When the marine comm spams turrets all over the placing, covering each of them with another sentry then you actually have no way to break that turret farm without dying hundred of times.
Please don't tell me that you expect the alien team should only use a onos to break a turret farm... that's kind of ridiculous. Marines can completely lock off certain parts of the map, no matter how big or small the room is. The powernodes are hidden placed that you can't just snipe them off as lerk. You even can't fly in a room as lerk to mass-bilebomb everything, you die too fast even when there is no marine around, only turrets.
Turrets are too cheap compared to hydras for the amount of damage they do.
There is currently no way for aliens to breakthrough. Turrets vs any lifeform ( except onos ) is not a fair match-up if you ask me :P Gorge was the perfect solution. There is almost a gorge around which could help your team break a siege. A good and organized marine team could always push a gorge back as the bilebombs consumes so much energy that he can't keep him alive with healspray while retreating. This was the perfect trade-off: Supporting your teammates with healspray or attacking the enemies base.
Please don't tell me that you expect the alien team should only use a onos to break a turret farm... that's kind of ridiculous. Marines can completely lock off certain parts of the map, no matter how big or small the room is. The powernodes are hidden placed that you can't just snipe them off as lerk. You even can't fly in a room as lerk to mass-bilebomb everything, you die too fast even when there is no marine around, only turrets.
Turrets are too cheap compared to hydras for the amount of damage they do.
There is currently no way for aliens to breakthrough. Turrets vs any lifeform ( except onos ) is not a fair match-up if you ask me :P Gorge was the perfect solution. There is almost a gorge around which could help your team break a siege. A good and organized marine team could always push a gorge back as the bilebombs consumes so much energy that he can't keep him alive with healspray while retreating. This was the perfect trade-off: Supporting your teammates with healspray or attacking the enemies base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very well said sir. This is the issue i dont think people see. Lerk gets raped by sents. So how will you deal with it? Gorge could go off and kill this stuff, because of the range. I hope to see it back. But who knows the game keep being rebuilt over and over.
Lerk it applies when you need to bomb from above.
Gorge it applies when you you need it from that level.
seriously ...
why is always the one or the other mentality?
Even when comparing Gorge and Alien Commander
Why can't they both do a bunch of the same things...and have a couple things different.
Please don't tell me that you expect the alien team should only use a onos to break a turret farm... that's kind of ridiculous. Marines can completely lock off certain parts of the map, no matter how big or small the room is. The powernodes are hidden placed that you can't just snipe them off as lerk. You even can't fly in a room as lerk to mass-bilebomb everything, you die too fast even when there is no marine around, only turrets.
Turrets are too cheap compared to hydras for the amount of damage they do.
There is currently no way for aliens to breakthrough. Turrets vs any lifeform ( except onos ) is not a fair match-up if you ask me :P Gorge was the perfect solution. There is almost a gorge around which could help your team break a siege. A good and organized marine team could always push a gorge back as the bilebombs consumes so much energy that he can't keep him alive with healspray while retreating. This was the perfect trade-off: Supporting your teammates with healspray or attacking the enemies base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Go around.
The most marines can do is block off a certain route from one direction. So go around.
The large the area they want to secure, the more entrances they need to block off.
It very quickly becomes entirely impractical to block off access to a large area without spending massive amounts of money, and still ending up with no defences if anything actually does get past.
And of course this assumes perfect completely unavoidable coverage, I find it quite easy to fly past as lerk, or even sneak past as skulk, it's really hard to cover areas properly with turrets with the complexiy of map geometry, and very easy to kill them once you do get out of their firing cone. Fades in particular can just teleport right past them, they're almost uselss against fades.
Face a turret as skulk and you will mostly not survive - Lerks don't have that much more health and armor, they die pretty fast as well.
Ok well a few points i will have to disagree with you on.
First of all, vents or unreachable perches out of LOS in marine base are inherently imbalanced. They are inherently exploitative in nature and bad ns map design 101. As a gorge, instead of bilebomb i could very much as easily hydra spam and heal from the unreachable location. Removing bilebomb from the gorge does not fix bad map design that is also exploitable by lerks and skulks. In regards to spam, this is pretty weak and could be applied to any of the other functions of the gorge whether it be healspray spamming, cyst spamming, hydra spamming.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another was to simply suicide bilebomb rush a marine base repeatedly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the issue of suicide gorging. This issue stopped being a problem when bilebomb damage was reduced, obs uncloaked ninja gorges, and welders were introduced. The only reason bilebomb was a problem back then was because it did too much damage, gorges were able to sneak into the marine base undetected every single time, and any damage was unrepairable without significant marine investment of tres. Gorge bilebomb was a problem because of <b>balance</b> factors, not because the <b>design</b> was inherently flawed.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gorge bilebomb also promoted conflicting issues when attacking a base as a team. In most situations, I found it better to simply heal the lerks/fades/onoses (since keeping them alive is how you stay alive) then trying to bilebomb anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see the conflict. You either heal your teammates or you bilebomb. What conflict? If you find it more effective to heal your teammates, you have that choice. Your situation and the decisions you would then make pre and post bilebomb removal are the same so the question begs to be asked - what exactly was the conflict with bilebomb?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The role confusion issue was both a real and serious problem with the gorge. Its like if Valve created a class in TF2 that had all the engineer abilities + the medic's medi-gun + the demoman's grenade launcher.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think TF2 examples are pretty weak. NS and TF are not by any standards similar in gameplay. I can't see how you can say that because having engineer, medic, and demoman abilities in TF2 is bad, its bad for the gorge to be able to build, heal and do whatever the demoman does. I dont play TF2 but its immediately obvious that there are reasons specific to TF2 why having such a class wouldn't work for example because that would actually mean two less classes.
In regard to role confusion, I'm sorry but with all respect I can't help but get the feeling that this same line I'm hearing from the PT's is strawman or rather, simply a way to rationalize a decision that wasnt thought through very clearly (see the sentry turret problem and the need for an alien ranged 'bilebomb'). NS1 gorges had to build every single structure and they had bilebomb. Talk about role confusion.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not only would it create confusion for new players on what that class is supposed to do, it would be devilishly hard to balance<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think its a very dangerous thing to start designing games with the assumption that your players arn't capable of intuitive learning and possess the IQ of a fried egg. Here is my gorge, i can spit, oh i can heal too? Oh whats this bilebomb thing? It damages buildings? Oh crap, i ran out of energy bilebombing! So..I need to juggle healing and bilebombing when with my teammates? It is intuitive and easily learned throughout the course of a game due to the pacing of bilebomb as a 2nd hive ability.
*edit* oh yes and after more thought, no i cannot see why it would be devilishly hard to balance bilebomb. Was bilebomb OP in 199? No, it wasnt materially OP in any way in and of itself. So what is there to balance but systematic factors that need to be balanced anyway such as vents in marine start or increased CC hp(this is a totally different topic i know). Perhaps i am missing why bilebomb would be so hard to balance and you didnt have the time to list them, but right now i am at a total loss for why it would be so.
i bet you $20 i can kill you with a 0 pres marine before you kill me - deal?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i'll gladly take you up on that mate,
add me
<a href="http://steamcommunity.com/id/hampton" target="_blank">http://steamcommunity.com/id/hampton</a>
skulk bite about 35 seconds
bilebomb currently on 3 minutes to kill extractor
That same strategy ("just ambush them when they're not looking or you have cover") works for any player in any game. I do NOT want to give the shotgun back to the lerk, I'd much rather the spikes be tuned up damagewise and have their spread reduced so that they fill a niche besides "run up and bite (shotgun) something."
Lerk bite/lerk shotgun (practically the same thing) were both implemented (IMO) because lerk spikes were insufficiently effective. Gorges don't really kill things that effectively, and Skulks/Fades/Onii are all forced into point-blank shotgun range due to the nature of their attacks. What's MISSING from the alien side is some sort of ranged fire support.
Now, if they gave lerks something like Acid Rocket, I'd be fine with having something like Bite/Shotgun come back, but the Lerk is currently the only thing on the alien list that doesn't have to walk right up to your face to make life hard (Gorge spit being a joke). When using spikes, I play lerk a little like a jetpacking marine with a HMG in NS1, and I like that a lot, but a marine with good aim, even with an LMG, can make that pretty difficult at the kind of range most fights occur in NS2 (the length of a hallway). Upping the lerk rate of fire, increasing the damage per spike, tightening the spread cone, or just reducing the energy drain so he can stay at high ROF continually would all go towards improving lerk performance.
skulk bite about 35 seconds
bilebomb currently on 3 minutes to kill extractor<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL great point!
+ terrible Lerk HP = no more BB
@hampton: added. lets do this.
Not sure it'll prove anything, but curious to find out how it went :)
<!--QuoteBegin-Twittar!+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Twittar!)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Beefing up Lerk bile bomb. It got nerfed during the transition to damage-over-time. 44 minutes ago<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sweeeeeet.
we're friends now that we cleared things up, but for a moment there it was <i>treachery</i>!
Him and shiv are generally the only two that give me a run for my money... so i might be losing this $20 .. but hey at least its in the name of <strike>SCIENCE</strike>! NS2
:-D
match is tomorrow, around 2-3 pm PST
Im very unhappy with the <b><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->L<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#48D1CC--><span style="color:#48D1CC"><!--/coloro-->E <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->R<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->K<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>, in ns1 you could support from save places and dive in and quickly kill something if you wanted - now you have to dive in to support and stay behind or fly around them like a maniac to kill them...(and not get killed, since spiking someone to death takes quite some time)
The problem is that "dive-in support" just doesnt work out, its SUICIDE in situations where you would really need it => You DONT need <b><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->L<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#48D1CC--><span style="color:#48D1CC"><!--/coloro-->E <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->R<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->K<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b> gas against 1 or 2 marines, you could even kill them alone... but if there is a bigger group of marines, and <b><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->L<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#48D1CC--><span style="color:#48D1CC"><!--/coloro-->E <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->R<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->K<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b> gas would be awesome to harass and support your teammates you need to dive into them. Oo => thats a gamble with you life... usually its not worth risking your life so you end up flying in AFTER some skulks or whatever jumped in, to reduce the risk of you getting raped and losing 30pres.
Just because it looks cool and you wasted a lot work into the trailing spores and spikes, it doesnt mean it NEEDS to stay.
ANOTHER cool thing is, you dont scale into lategame(at least spikes dont), while armor upgrades only increase bites and swipes by 1-2 which takes maybe 2,3 seconds more to kill a marine - for a <b><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->L<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#48D1CC--><span style="color:#48D1CC"><!--/coloro-->E <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->R<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->K<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b> thats maybe 5-15s longer spiking, and if marines get medpacks you cant outdmg them - ever.
Make lerk gas range, and think about something to replace the normal spikes primary, maybe only shotguns spikes, bite? :p
Sweeeeeet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You guys are welcome. I spent my whole evening on that.
Also just a note:
The Extractor for Marines are like 4k health and 550 armor. This structure has the most HP/Armor next to the CC itself due to its distance away from the base and the protection of most of the team. Lerks shouldn't be hitting Extractors unless with a Skulk or doing a run by (leave the Extractor chewing to the Skulks so that Lerks can be harassing groups of Marines or their base).
Also: With the possible new values though it cuts out 2/3's of the time it takes to kill an Extractor.
lookin out for the lerk, as usual :)
@koruyo: the spores work well for his role, its just the tuning and balancing that need to be adjusted such as HP, feedback, res etc.
your points are valid and accurate, but keeping the lerk "in combat" and not a sniper is a good idea if aliens are to be the melee team. How would you feel if his HP was increased, shotguns didnt do much dmg compared to lmg, and he only had umbra and spores which covered more surface area? would you like him then?
Increased durability means he needs to be nerfed in dps or agility.
And only having umbra and spores would be boring as hell, usefull for a team - sure, but not that fun to play. (besides umbra wont ever be a lifeform ability in ns2 - at least i dont see it beeing removed from the crag ever - and having the same ability twice in the game would be strange)
I would like him beeing more similar to the ns1 one, may it be bite, shotgun spikes or something similar - and the damage-support ability shouldnt be something were i need to get into the instakill range of marines. (the combination just worked better - fast agile, weak health, "passiv" support and a strong close combat dive-in finisher)
we're friends now that we cleared things up, but for a moment there it was <i>treachery</i>!
Him and shiv are generally the only two that give me a run for my money<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So I guess all the time I spend ingesting the ankles of you and your upgraded teammates as an unupgraded skulk wasn't giving you a run for your money? I guess it is sort of hard to run with no legs. ^.^
Thats great, it really is. This was one of the immediate concerns i had with lerk bilebomb. I didnt think it actually possible to get a good number (because its a dot) that wasn't totally countered by welders but wasn't also OP in that you couldn't weld the damage but you have found it and without increasing the stackability of lerk bilebomb.
However, this still doesnt solve our sentry turret problem. Nor does it solve the kamikaze problem of lerk fragility combined with short ranged bilebomb. And it certainly does not get the gorge out of the hive room.
*edit* I feel like if theres a divide between the PT's and most of the community as there seems to be now in regard to gorge having no bilebomb (lerk bilebomb aside), it is the PT's that have the ear of the developer which quite frankly puts the community in a position where they are told they are beta testers but not treated like so. I hope i am wrong :x.