<!--quoteo(post=1914132:date=Mar 17 2012, 01:18 AM:name=Shrike3O)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrike3O @ Mar 17 2012, 01:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914132"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That same strategy ("just ambush them when they're not looking or you have cover") works for any player in any game. I do NOT want to give the shotgun back to the lerk, I'd much rather the spikes be tuned up damagewise and have their spread reduced so that they fill a niche besides "run up and bite (shotgun) something."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It works particularly well however for a class that is entirely built around its strength as a support unit, and which is adept at attacking from odd angles.
Everything the lerk has works really well in support of an attack, but not so well otherwise. If you attack with other aliens, or wait for other aliens to attack a position you're already in, you will find it really effective. Some of the best things you can do are hide in the roof somewhere when the marines attack an area, wait for a skulk or two to pop in, and then use that moment to snipe marines with spikes. Or wait for them to get really involved in a standoff with a gorge, and do the same thing. They're really good at picking off wounded marines. Check who's taken a hit or two, who's retreating, who's staying at the back to repair the power node, anyone the melee classes can't reach and who is occupied doing something else. The lerk's strength is not in DPS but in its ability to pick good targets.
This is to say nothing of the incredible power of flying in just behind the first wave of a massed attack and spraying spores everywhere, then leaving from another door. The marines will do one of two things: either they keep attacking the rest of the aliens but take spore damage/are blinded, or they try to shoot the big flying thing spewing green smoke <i>and in so doing, take their eyes off the aliens coming to munch on their nuts</i> and get promptly killed for their trouble. I honestly can get through a room fairly reliably unless you catch an unlucky point blank shotgun blast or something, but if you come in at speed, don't crash into anything, and leave promptly by another exit, chances are you'll hardly take a hit and get a nice covering of spore gas in the room, as well as seriously hurt marine cohesion.
<!--quoteo(post=1914047:date=Mar 16 2012, 09:28 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 16 2012, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914047"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->thats it. you and me, buddy. lets go on my server and we'll test this theory of yours and record it. Cuz i call bs. :) i bet you $20 i can kill you with a 0 pres marine before you kill me - deal?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes if it's just two people and you know I'm going to be a lerk and you know I'm going to attack you and you don't have anything else to worry about and you're a relatively good shot, yeah, you probably can, which is why you don't play the lerk like that.
It'd be kinda like saying you can solo an onos just by buying a jetpack and being in a large room. Don't try to kill jetpackers as an onos in large rooms.
Similarly, don't try attacking undistracted, cautious marines using rifles as a lerk. Hang out in the ceiling, wait for a marine running alone to get somewhere and not paying attention, swoop down behind him and riddle him with spikes before he realises you're attacking. Wait for a big attack and pick off people too focussed on the fades or shooting ineffectually at the hive, or even just pick a really good roof spot, hang onto it, and pepper them with shots while they try to figure out where the hell you're shooting from.
I realise it is weird to think of a class as effective if it can't even beat a basic enemy one on one, but that's true of almost any marine vs any lifeform higher than a lerk, yet a big ball of marines is a really dangerous thing because they work so much better in support of each other. The lerk is very much the same.
<!--quoteo(post=1914072:date=Mar 16 2012, 10:08 PM:name=cH40z-Lord)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cH40z-Lord @ Mar 16 2012, 10:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914072"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can't always go around. Marines just need to place a single turret in front of the vent and it's almost covered. If the skulk or lerk still manages to slip through then he'll run for sure into more turrets that will kill him instantly ( even with carapace ).
Face a turret as skulk and you will mostly not survive - Lerks don't have that much more health and armor, they die pretty fast as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If they can afford to block off every vent and corridor with enough turrets to cover the turrets covering the corridors, what on earth are they doing for tech?
Seriously that'd be like five turrets just to cover one base and an extractor, you want more than one extractor? You're gonna need another three turrets, want two bases and two extractors? Another five or six turrets. One on the power node, one on each door, one on the vent, and one more to maybe cover some of the other turrets.
Turrets may be relatively cheap but you need a lot of them to make them uncrackable even by skulks.
I for one commend moving bile bomb over to ge Lerk. The Gorge was a very brilliant class, but in terms of design, it should not be engaging in "find the exploit" gameplay.
In the late game, I much prefer playing Lerk rather than Fade as I am much better at it. With that said I have taken an interest in bile bomb, and it seems like it could be cool. Right now it's <b>very</b> hard to aim with and doesn't do nearly enough damage to be worth it's salt.
But it could be cool, so I'd like to see how it turns out.
<!--quoteo(post=1914334:date=Mar 18 2012, 04:45 AM:name=DarkOmen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DarkOmen @ Mar 18 2012, 04:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914334"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I for one commend moving bile bomb over to ge Lerk. The Gorge was a very brilliant class, but in terms of design, it should not be engaging in "find the exploit" gameplay.
In the late game, I much prefer playing Lerk rather than Fade as I am much better at it. With that said I have taken an interest in bile bomb, and it seems like it could be cool. Right now it's <b>very</b> hard to aim with and doesn't do nearly enough damage to be worth it's salt.
But it could be cool, so I'd like to see how it turns out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've already rebutted this arguement fully in further detail if you care to read a few posts back. Exploits such as vents in marine base etc are systematic. It is treating the symptom (gorges finding exploits) instead of the cause (bad map design). Gorges finding exploits to bilebomb from is far from the only thing gorges can/could do with it. Your throwing the baby out with the bath water.
I dont think its helpful to treat lerk and gorge bilebomb as an either or. It is clear that lerk bilebomb functions very differently from gorge bilebomb. Aliens need a ranged midgame counter to sentry turret spam whether or not the lerk has 'bilebomb'.
It was a big mistake to take away gorge bile bomb without implementing some of the new gorge core features in NS2. That being said, I don't think it's as dramatic as some people are making it out to be. Bile bomb can definitely work on the lerk, it just needs some proper finetuning. I can only hope they bring in the new gorge features ASAP
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1914355:date=Mar 17 2012, 10:50 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Mar 17 2012, 10:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914355"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens need a ranged midgame counter to sentry turret spam whether or not the lerk has 'bilebomb'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
not when you consider that they want the onos to be the real siege weapon. this is one of the reasons why they placed the BB aka "the former game ender" on the most fragile life form - they've reduced it's effectiveness while addressing role confusion/OP gorgie
<!--quoteo(post=1914378:date=Mar 17 2012, 01:28 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 17 2012, 01:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914378"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->not when you consider that they want the onos to be the real siege weapon. this is one of the reasons why they placed the BB aka "the former game ender" on the most fragile life form - they've reduced it's effectiveness while addressing role confusion/OP gorgie<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But Onos is a late-game addition (and generally only shows up if the aliens are already winning big anyway). There needs to be a more viable siege alternative at earlier stages.
Being unable to break down established bases is a large part of the lack of comebacks in this game.
If we see lifeforms unlinked from hive count, the Onos as a midgame siege breaker might come into effect, especially if Bone Shield gets put in. There's also still a few abilities yet to come into the game... skulk Xenocide might end up on hive 2, Acid Rocket may come back to some lifeform, Babblers may turn out to give sentry farms absolute fits (if they spawn by the dozen, that's a lot of targets to kill), Phantasms may be legit sentry targets (and so take fire off the incoming "real" lifeforms while bullet after bullet is fired into illusions), a gorge spraying Umbra would halve the effectiveness of that farm...
Without these other features in, the alien anti-sentry-farm metagame is very simple, and yeah, the current version of bilebomb is bad for it. If/when those other features enter the game, there's going to be a LOT of options for approaching a sentry farm, and in the meantime having a Lerk who can zip around and mess up buildings (if not sentry farms) with a bilebomb is pretty cool.
<!--quoteo(post=1913996:date=Mar 16 2012, 02:40 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 16 2012, 02:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913996"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do, one of the nicest things you could do for me is give me something cheaper than a hydra to build but which is still useful[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You already have those. They're called mini-cysts, and unlike hydras they are quite useful.
With comm now being able to drop p.res cysts there's even less need for gorges to to be honest, aside from gorges being able to build cysts more tactically (in places where the cyst is harder for rines to knife/find) Making hydras actually viable would already be a big step while we wait for new gorge additions.
<!--quoteo(post=1914378:date=Mar 18 2012, 07:28 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 18 2012, 07:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914378"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->not when you consider that they want the onos to be the real siege weapon. this is one of the reasons why they placed the BB aka "the former game ender" on the most fragile life form - they've reduced it's effectiveness while addressing role confusion/OP gorgie<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its like saying lets remove the grenade launcher because we want the ARC to be the real siege weapon. This is weak and i have also already rebutted this if you will read my OP. In addition to the reasons i have already mentioned, i didnt think it was necessary to mention it is nigh impossible to get a third hive up when marines have sentry farmed two techpoints (50/50 map control). Expecting aliens to be able to get a third hive in response to sentry farm and marine pressure is reaching for straws.
In regard to lerk bilebomb. I will again repeat, lerk bilebomb is a totally different issue as it functions very differently. It isn't ranged, and as such isnt a matter of 'reduced effectiveness' against sentry farms. It is simply NO effectiveness.
Yes, unlinking lifeforms from hives is something that might solve this issue but we have had no confirmation of this and no mention of it either. Not to mention the reason being repeatedly stated for removing bilebomb from the gorge has been everything but this reason.
<!--quoteo(post=1914540:date=Mar 18 2012, 09:25 PM:name=ogz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogz @ Mar 18 2012, 09:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914540"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lets say that lerk bilebomb is to stay... how do we need to change the current implementation to make it feasible to take down sentry farms?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Make it a ranged attack :). Im sorry i keep not being very clear when explaining this but i mean that lerk bilebomb currently as a drop mechanic is interesting for sure. I'm not trying to make a case for lerk bilebomb to be removed but for a ranged type bilebomb attack to be reintroduced that can counter sentries. At this point after playing alot of games (both as a marine and an alien) where aliens just feel absolutely helpless against sentry spam (just like the days before onos, and bilebomb was weak or not implemented yet), i dont even care if the gorge doesnt get ranged bilebomb if its reintroduced.
I feel like bad marine play isnt being punished and good alien play isnt being rewarded.
I havent played the new patch yet and Im not going to read this whole thread to see if its been mentioned, but is it possible that once movement chambers are in the game the lerks survivability will increase ? such as celerity. Surely the the lerk isnt going to get shot down all that easily flying with a 30% speed increase. I have the feeling theyre just going to improve the damage of bilebomb. With all honestly i find good lerk players annoying enough as it is without the bilebomb.
<!--quoteo(post=1914559:date=Mar 18 2012, 10:25 PM:name=assbda)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (assbda @ Mar 18 2012, 10:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914559"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I havent played the new patch yet and Im not going to read this whole thread to see if its been mentioned, but is it possible that once movement chambers are in the game the lerks survivability will increase ? such as celerity. Surely the the lerk isnt going to get shot down all that easily flying with a 30% speed increase. I have the feeling theyre just going to improve the damage of bilebomb. With all honestly i find good lerk players annoying enough as it is without the bilebomb.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1914563:date=Mar 18 2012, 12:21 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Mar 18 2012, 12:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914563"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is sentries aimbot :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A computer controlled turret can shoot things consistently, good lord whatever is the world coming to.
I really don't want turrets with a random miss chance or ones that are easily defeated by simple movement patterns, if you don't make sentries consistent they lose all utility or become incredibly annoying because you live or die at random.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1914535:date=Mar 18 2012, 01:50 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Mar 18 2012, 01:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914535"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its like saying lets remove the grenade launcher because we want the ARC to be the real siege weapon. This is weak and i have also already rebutted this if you will read my OP. In addition to the reasons i have already mentioned, i didnt think it was necessary to mention it is nigh impossible to get a third hive up when marines have sentry farmed two techpoints (50/50 map control). Expecting aliens to be able to get a third hive in response to sentry farm and marine pressure is reaching for straws.
In regard to lerk bilebomb. I will again repeat, lerk bilebomb is a totally different issue as it functions very differently. It isn't ranged, and as such isnt a matter of 'reduced effectiveness' against sentry farms. It is simply NO effectiveness.
Yes, unlinking lifeforms from hives is something that might solve this issue but we have had no confirmation of this and no mention of it either. Not to mention the reason being repeatedly stated for removing bilebomb from the gorge has been everything but this reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you're confusing me with a developer i believe. i never claimed this was my idea? just merely stating their supposed intentions.
as for Lerk BB, yea i suggest something crazy... i'm currently making an easy to watch video to suggest major changes to the Lerk for Flayra and community to see. as for untying lifeforms from hives, its mentioned in Flayra's design doc, check it out as well as my concerns all over these forums :)
edit: @Ogz and those asking for an idea, standby for this vid! :)
I really hope one of the new Gorge abilities will be <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2009/8/gorge_reveal" target="_blank">Damage Soak</a> :)
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1914646:date=Mar 18 2012, 01:58 PM:name=cH40z-Lord)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cH40z-Lord @ Mar 18 2012, 01:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914646"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really hope one of the new Gorge abilities will be <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2009/8/gorge_reveal" target="_blank">Damage Soak</a> :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would love a return of this ability. It would bring some interesting choices when a Gorge is healing a structure that is under attack. Self preservation or the lives of nearby alien structures.
Also the current implementation of flamethrowers would work well to balance the ability as setting them on fire would limit their chances to use damage soak, or quickly shut down an active damage soak by setting them on fire.
<!--quoteo(post=1914638:date=Mar 19 2012, 04:41 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 19 2012, 04:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914638"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A computer controlled turret can shoot things consistently, good lord whatever is the world coming to.
I really don't want turrets with a random miss chance or ones that are easily defeated by simple movement patterns, if you don't make sentries consistent they lose all utility or become incredibly annoying because you live or die at random.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah my point was, sentries aimbot. This is a given. As such, it doesnt really matter how agile or fast you make the lerk. It will never be able to counter sentry farm with drop bilebomb.
Yea Lerks just don't have enough survivability to be bile bombing marine bases with turrets. Really hope bile bomb gets changed to an infantry attack rather than a structure attack.
I don't know about you guys, but I spend major portions of pub games just sitting on Marine Base ceiling killing everything with spikes. Most turrets can't target that high, and the ones that are able to can often be blocked with ceiling geometry or room features.
From that vantage, delivering Bile Bomb would be easy if the damage made it worthwhile.
/begin rant Removing bile bomb from the gorge has been the most rage inducing change to date, for me. Seriously, teh **** Removing bile bomb to prevent map 'exploit' attacks is retarded. Why not just uninstall the game, same result. The gorge has to many roles! Really? Really? No, you've just made an interesting role one dimensional. The TF2 medic can have a weak offensive role, because he is a REQUIRED role (without a few uber attacks at the right time, you WILL lose). /end rant
A key element I think this discussion is missing: <ul><li>Lerk is hard to play</li><li>Gorge is now USELESS against structures</li></ul>
The lerk requires more skill to play than any class in NS2. Using bilebomb well is even harder. This will be tweaked, sure.. whatever, tweak away but you're still only going to find select players using the lerk. This will ALWAYS be the case unless he is easy to use or super powerful.
Aliens now only have the ONOS to end games. Prior to B200 aliens could hit tier 2, lock down the marines and then slowly bile bomb to victory. Now, aliens MUST wait for Onos. Horray long games that are decided early but we still have to play them out for another 10-30 minutes.
Blarg. afgjnalgfalfj Blark. I dunno, this change pisses me off.
<!--quoteo(post=1914691:date=Mar 18 2012, 04:46 PM:name=autograder)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (autograder @ Mar 18 2012, 04:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914691"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The lerk requires more skill to play than any class in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1914699:date=Mar 18 2012, 04:26 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 18 2012, 04:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914699"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yep, and you get almost nothing for it
<!--quoteo(post=1914671:date=Mar 18 2012, 03:21 PM:name=Zoot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zoot @ Mar 18 2012, 03:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914671"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yea Lerks just don't have enough survivability to be bile bombing marine bases with turrets. Really hope bile bomb gets changed to an infantry attack rather than a structure attack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
imagine if the spores that confuse turrets could be fired from range or dropped with momentum to arrive at the turrets! doesn't that sound neat?
<!--quoteo(post=1913843:date=Mar 16 2012, 07:48 AM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Mar 16 2012, 07:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1913843"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The complaints about changing the Gorge are very important. They arise from how brilliant the gorge was to play before, it was almost spot on.
Not only was it fun but you were useful whatever the situation. The gorge was powerful, engaging, useful and fun. The best part was, that offensively you were completely useless without the aid of your team (solo, you mostly acted as a distraction, seeking to divide up the marines). This was all-in-all a fantastic class and one experienced and skilled people could enjoy playing.
The problem here is, should it be changed at all? The Gorge was fantastic and we should fight to keep classes like that when they come into being, it is unlikely UWE can ever make the Gorge lifeform that good again. So unless there is a gamebreaking reason the Gorge needed to be changed (none have been raised yet) there is a clear arguement for keeping it.
<b>Take Home Message: The Gorge lifeform was so RIGHT, that we should fight to keep it.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this opinion from another thread as well as the OP. I fell in love with the NS1 gorge simply because it was something I could do. I sucked at lerk, fade, and late-game skulk, and onos wasn't always a great choice of res. However as Lerk I could build bases, provide support on the front line, and help clinch a close assault by bile bombing key targets while skulks/fades kept the marines busy.
The fact that the gorge is slow, fat, and a prized target ("get the piggy!") means it's a huge risk for them to even go within sight of a marine base. The payoff was that they were an answer to the siege cannon. Plus, the energy draining from bile bomb made you choose between healing and assaulting.
So gorge had a couple roles: heal spray on players heal spray on buildings build bases--- er no, that was taken out. early res node cap--- gone join the assault with bile bom--- nope that's taken out too.
I guess we could always use our personal res on silly turrets that get destroyed from a distance without a second thought.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->imagine if the spores that confuse turrets could be fired from range or dropped with momentum to arrive at the turrets! doesn't that sound neat?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I tried this, but the spores are not updated very often or something, so it looks pretty bad sometimes, there is no collision with the walls also. It could be fixed easily I guess but with the current performance issues, it might not be a good idea to have fully dynamic spores.
Comments
It works particularly well however for a class that is entirely built around its strength as a support unit, and which is adept at attacking from odd angles.
Everything the lerk has works really well in support of an attack, but not so well otherwise. If you attack with other aliens, or wait for other aliens to attack a position you're already in, you will find it really effective. Some of the best things you can do are hide in the roof somewhere when the marines attack an area, wait for a skulk or two to pop in, and then use that moment to snipe marines with spikes. Or wait for them to get really involved in a standoff with a gorge, and do the same thing. They're really good at picking off wounded marines. Check who's taken a hit or two, who's retreating, who's staying at the back to repair the power node, anyone the melee classes can't reach and who is occupied doing something else. The lerk's strength is not in DPS but in its ability to pick good targets.
This is to say nothing of the incredible power of flying in just behind the first wave of a massed attack and spraying spores everywhere, then leaving from another door. The marines will do one of two things: either they keep attacking the rest of the aliens but take spore damage/are blinded, or they try to shoot the big flying thing spewing green smoke <i>and in so doing, take their eyes off the aliens coming to munch on their nuts</i> and get promptly killed for their trouble. I honestly can get through a room fairly reliably unless you catch an unlucky point blank shotgun blast or something, but if you come in at speed, don't crash into anything, and leave promptly by another exit, chances are you'll hardly take a hit and get a nice covering of spore gas in the room, as well as seriously hurt marine cohesion.
<!--quoteo(post=1914047:date=Mar 16 2012, 09:28 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Mar 16 2012, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914047"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->thats it. you and me, buddy. lets go on my server and we'll test this theory of yours and record it. Cuz i call bs. :)
i bet you $20 i can kill you with a 0 pres marine before you kill me - deal?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes if it's just two people and you know I'm going to be a lerk and you know I'm going to attack you and you don't have anything else to worry about and you're a relatively good shot, yeah, you probably can, which is why you don't play the lerk like that.
It'd be kinda like saying you can solo an onos just by buying a jetpack and being in a large room. Don't try to kill jetpackers as an onos in large rooms.
Similarly, don't try attacking undistracted, cautious marines using rifles as a lerk. Hang out in the ceiling, wait for a marine running alone to get somewhere and not paying attention, swoop down behind him and riddle him with spikes before he realises you're attacking. Wait for a big attack and pick off people too focussed on the fades or shooting ineffectually at the hive, or even just pick a really good roof spot, hang onto it, and pepper them with shots while they try to figure out where the hell you're shooting from.
I realise it is weird to think of a class as effective if it can't even beat a basic enemy one on one, but that's true of almost any marine vs any lifeform higher than a lerk, yet a big ball of marines is a really dangerous thing because they work so much better in support of each other. The lerk is very much the same.
<!--quoteo(post=1914072:date=Mar 16 2012, 10:08 PM:name=cH40z-Lord)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cH40z-Lord @ Mar 16 2012, 10:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914072"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can't always go around. Marines just need to place a single turret in front of the vent and it's almost covered. If the skulk or lerk still manages to slip through then he'll run for sure into more turrets that will kill him instantly ( even with carapace ).
Face a turret as skulk and you will mostly not survive - Lerks don't have that much more health and armor, they die pretty fast as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If they can afford to block off every vent and corridor with enough turrets to cover the turrets covering the corridors, what on earth are they doing for tech?
Seriously that'd be like five turrets just to cover one base and an extractor, you want more than one extractor? You're gonna need another three turrets, want two bases and two extractors? Another five or six turrets. One on the power node, one on each door, one on the vent, and one more to maybe cover some of the other turrets.
Turrets may be relatively cheap but you need a lot of them to make them uncrackable even by skulks.
In the late game, I much prefer playing Lerk rather than Fade as I am much better at it. With that said I have taken an interest in bile bomb, and it seems like it could be cool. Right now it's <b>very</b> hard to aim with and doesn't do nearly enough damage to be worth it's salt.
But it could be cool, so I'd like to see how it turns out.
In the late game, I much prefer playing Lerk rather than Fade as I am much better at it. With that said I have taken an interest in bile bomb, and it seems like it could be cool. Right now it's <b>very</b> hard to aim with and doesn't do nearly enough damage to be worth it's salt.
But it could be cool, so I'd like to see how it turns out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've already rebutted this arguement fully in further detail if you care to read a few posts back. Exploits such as vents in marine base etc are systematic. It is treating the symptom (gorges finding exploits) instead of the cause (bad map design). Gorges finding exploits to bilebomb from is far from the only thing gorges can/could do with it. Your throwing the baby out with the bath water.
I dont think its helpful to treat lerk and gorge bilebomb as an either or. It is clear that lerk bilebomb functions very differently from gorge bilebomb. Aliens need a ranged midgame counter to sentry turret spam whether or not the lerk has 'bilebomb'.
not when you consider that they want the onos to be the real siege weapon.
this is one of the reasons why they placed the BB aka "the former game ender" on the most fragile life form - they've reduced it's effectiveness while addressing role confusion/OP gorgie
this is one of the reasons why they placed the BB aka "the former game ender" on the most fragile life form - they've reduced it's effectiveness while addressing role confusion/OP gorgie<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But Onos is a late-game addition (and generally only shows up if the aliens are already winning big anyway). There needs to be a more viable siege alternative at earlier stages.
Being unable to break down established bases is a large part of the lack of comebacks in this game.
Without these other features in, the alien anti-sentry-farm metagame is very simple, and yeah, the current version of bilebomb is bad for it. If/when those other features enter the game, there's going to be a LOT of options for approaching a sentry farm, and in the meantime having a Lerk who can zip around and mess up buildings (if not sentry farms) with a bilebomb is pretty cool.
You already have those. They're called mini-cysts, and unlike hydras they are quite useful.
this is one of the reasons why they placed the BB aka "the former game ender" on the most fragile life form - they've reduced it's effectiveness while addressing role confusion/OP gorgie<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its like saying lets remove the grenade launcher because we want the ARC to be the real siege weapon. This is weak and i have also already rebutted this if you will read my OP. In addition to the reasons i have already mentioned, i didnt think it was necessary to mention it is nigh impossible to get a third hive up when marines have sentry farmed two techpoints (50/50 map control). Expecting aliens to be able to get a third hive in response to sentry farm and marine pressure is reaching for straws.
In regard to lerk bilebomb. I will again repeat, lerk bilebomb is a totally different issue as it functions very differently. It isn't ranged, and as such isnt a matter of 'reduced effectiveness' against sentry farms. It is simply NO effectiveness.
Yes, unlinking lifeforms from hives is something that might solve this issue but we have had no confirmation of this and no mention of it either. Not to mention the reason being repeatedly stated for removing bilebomb from the gorge has been everything but this reason.
Make it a ranged attack :).
Im sorry i keep not being very clear when explaining this but i mean that lerk bilebomb currently as a drop mechanic is interesting for sure. I'm not trying to make a case for lerk bilebomb to be removed but for a ranged type bilebomb attack to be reintroduced that can counter sentries. At this point after playing alot of games (both as a marine and an alien) where aliens just feel absolutely helpless against sentry spam (just like the days before onos, and bilebomb was weak or not implemented yet), i dont even care if the gorge doesnt get ranged bilebomb if its reintroduced.
I feel like bad marine play isnt being punished and good alien play isnt being rewarded.
I have the feeling theyre just going to improve the damage of bilebomb. With all honestly i find good lerk players annoying enough as it is without the bilebomb.
I have the feeling theyre just going to improve the damage of bilebomb. With all honestly i find good lerk players annoying enough as it is without the bilebomb.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is sentries aimbot :(
A computer controlled turret can shoot things consistently, good lord whatever is the world coming to.
I really don't want turrets with a random miss chance or ones that are easily defeated by simple movement patterns, if you don't make sentries consistent they lose all utility or become incredibly annoying because you live or die at random.
In regard to lerk bilebomb. I will again repeat, lerk bilebomb is a totally different issue as it functions very differently. It isn't ranged, and as such isnt a matter of 'reduced effectiveness' against sentry farms. It is simply NO effectiveness.
Yes, unlinking lifeforms from hives is something that might solve this issue but we have had no confirmation of this and no mention of it either. Not to mention the reason being repeatedly stated for removing bilebomb from the gorge has been everything but this reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you're confusing me with a developer i believe. i never claimed this was my idea?
just merely stating their supposed intentions.
as for Lerk BB, yea i suggest something crazy... i'm currently making an easy to watch video to suggest major changes to the Lerk for Flayra and community to see.
as for untying lifeforms from hives, its mentioned in Flayra's design doc, check it out as well as my concerns all over these forums :)
edit: @Ogz and those asking for an idea, standby for this vid! :)
Would love a return of this ability. It would bring some interesting choices when a Gorge is healing a structure that is under attack. Self preservation or the lives of nearby alien structures.
Also the current implementation of flamethrowers would work well to balance the ability as setting them on fire would limit their chances to use damage soak, or quickly shut down an active damage soak by setting them on fire.
I really don't want turrets with a random miss chance or ones that are easily defeated by simple movement patterns, if you don't make sentries consistent they lose all utility or become incredibly annoying because you live or die at random.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah my point was, sentries aimbot. This is a given. As such, it doesnt really matter how agile or fast you make the lerk. It will never be able to counter sentry farm with drop bilebomb.
From that vantage, delivering Bile Bomb would be easy if the damage made it worthwhile.
Removing bile bomb from the gorge has been the most rage inducing change to date, for me.
Seriously, teh ****
Removing bile bomb to prevent map 'exploit' attacks is retarded. Why not just uninstall the game, same result.
The gorge has to many roles! Really? Really? No, you've just made an interesting role one dimensional.
The TF2 medic can have a weak offensive role, because he is a REQUIRED role (without a few uber attacks at the right time, you WILL lose).
/end rant
A key element I think this discussion is missing:
<ul><li>Lerk is hard to play</li><li>Gorge is now USELESS against structures</li></ul>
The lerk requires more skill to play than any class in NS2.
Using bilebomb well is even harder. This will be tweaked, sure.. whatever, tweak away but you're still only going to find select players using the lerk. This will ALWAYS be the case unless he is easy to use or super powerful.
Aliens now only have the ONOS to end games. Prior to B200 aliens could hit tier 2, lock down the marines and then slowly bile bomb to victory. Now, aliens MUST wait for Onos. Horray long games that are decided early but we still have to play them out for another 10-30 minutes.
Blarg. afgjnalgfalfj Blark.
I dunno, this change pisses me off.
yep, and you get almost nothing for it
pretty cool huh?
pretty cool huh?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but breaking another class in the process is asinine.
imagine if the spores that confuse turrets could be fired from range or dropped with momentum to arrive at the turrets! doesn't that sound neat?
Not only was it fun but you were useful whatever the situation. The gorge was powerful, engaging, useful and fun. The best part was, that offensively you were completely useless without the aid of your team (solo, you mostly acted as a distraction, seeking to divide up the marines). This was all-in-all a fantastic class and one experienced and skilled people could enjoy playing.
The problem here is, should it be changed at all? The Gorge was fantastic and we should fight to keep classes like that when they come into being, it is unlikely UWE can ever make the Gorge lifeform that good again. So unless there is a gamebreaking reason the Gorge needed to be changed (none have been raised yet) there is a clear arguement for keeping it.
<b>Take Home Message: The Gorge lifeform was so RIGHT, that we should fight to keep it.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with this opinion from another thread as well as the OP.
I fell in love with the NS1 gorge simply because it was something I could do. I sucked at lerk, fade, and late-game skulk, and onos wasn't always a great choice of res. However as Lerk I could build bases, provide support on the front line, and help clinch a close assault by bile bombing key targets while skulks/fades kept the marines busy.
The fact that the gorge is slow, fat, and a prized target ("get the piggy!") means it's a huge risk for them to even go within sight of a marine base. The payoff was that they were an answer to the siege cannon. Plus, the energy draining from bile bomb made you choose between healing and assaulting.
So gorge had a couple roles:
heal spray on players
heal spray on buildings
build bases--- er no, that was taken out.
early res node cap--- gone
join the assault with bile bom--- nope that's taken out too.
I guess we could always use our personal res on silly turrets that get destroyed from a distance without a second thought.
I tried this, but the spores are not updated very often or something, so it looks pretty bad sometimes, there is no collision with the walls also. It could be fixed easily I guess but with the current performance issues, it might not be a good idea to have fully dynamic spores.