<!--quoteo(post=1915005:date=Mar 19 2012, 09:55 AM:name=ogz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogz @ Mar 19 2012, 09:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915005"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the problem is that there are some insane lerkers out there... even with current lerk stats
as soon as you try to improve lerk a little they become OP (anyone remember hte patch with the 'hide armor'?)
so unfortunately lerks are just very hard to balance right now..
kinda same situation with fades, which went form what... 150 armor? down to 80 armor now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The best way to figure out the true problems is to have 2 or more high level teams to play it out again and again. This is were everything is used ass effective as possible and all mistakes are punished. It would be bring to light many of the current issiues that are going on. However this can only be done when the peformance gets to its peak so we can have enough players able to paly their best. -- Currently the bilebomb damage is to low and lerks are rather weak vs good players. The new gas was a nice buff but lerks lost their burst damage which kept them viable(shotgun spikes).
I think bilebomb damage needs to be increased and it should do more damage to armor. Also I would like to see the shotgun spikes in the game again just less random(as a close combat weapon, risky but deadly. Requires skills to use, costs allot of energy). The last thing is to figure out a way for aliens to brake siege postitons, lerks are not going to be able to take down arcs if there are good marines defending, you need to get plenty of bilebomb in and the lerk will easily be sniped. Aliens will need something to damage buildings from range to force marines into vunurable postitons.
<!--quoteo(post=1915005:date=Mar 19 2012, 03:55 PM:name=ogz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogz @ Mar 19 2012, 03:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915005"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the problem is that there are some insane lerkers out there... even with current lerk stats
as soon as you try to improve lerk a little they become OP (anyone remember hte patch with the 'hide armor'?)
so unfortunately lerks are just very hard to balance right now..
kinda same situation with fades, which went form what... 150 armor? down to 80 armor now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that there are some players out there with above 20 FPS, who absolutely dominate in a game where 90% of players have between 10 and 15. Attempting to balance the game based on player feedback is pointless and a waste of time. Everything is going to go out of whack when/if they optimise the engine.
<!--quoteo(post=1914870:date=Mar 18 2012, 11:39 PM:name=Shrike3O)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrike3O @ Mar 18 2012, 11:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914870"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, maybe y'all gorgies should just wait on the extra structures and abilities that are, theoretically, headed your way?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just wish they had given us one of these things as the trade for the Bile bomb.
I only stick to 2 classes, Skulk and Gorge, So I hate the fact that I can't even get involved directly with the end game attack anymore.. just sit back and heal and put up Hydras.
<!--QuoteBegin-Elodea+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Elodea)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Rule 2) Provide reasons, arguements, counter arguements.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1915182:date=Mar 20 2012, 07:30 AM:name=Ejquinn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ejquinn @ Mar 20 2012, 07:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915182"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gorge is a builder and healer class, so shut up and build and heal. You're getting goo wall and some kind of healing structure anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1914870:date=Mar 18 2012, 10:39 PM:name=Shrike3O)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrike3O @ Mar 18 2012, 10:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914870"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, maybe y'all gorgies should just wait on the extra structures and abilities that are, theoretically, headed your way?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, so we have to wait out a useless class for a couple weeks while UWE finally gets its planned abilities in? And that's assuming everything goes well...
Give us something in the meantime, don't just take everything away.
<!--quoteo(post=1915224:date=Mar 19 2012, 03:39 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Mar 19 2012, 03:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915224"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure, so we have to wait out a useless class for a couple weeks while UWE finally gets its planned abilities in?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Welcome to pre-release game testing. I'd rather they spend their limited man-hours putting in the planned abilities than on kludging something up to fill the gap for a couple weeks.
<!--quoteo(post=1914674:date=Mar 18 2012, 07:37 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Mar 18 2012, 07:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914674"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know about you guys, but I spend major portions of pub games just sitting on Marine Base ceiling killing everything with spikes. Most turrets can't target that high, and the ones that are able to can often be blocked with ceiling geometry or room features.
From that vantage, delivering Bile Bomb would be easy if the damage made it worthwhile.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly while I am sure that works, I generally just fly through quickly. Take carapace and regen and you should be able to fly right past sentries and out the far doorway without dying, especially if the rest of the aliens attack with you.
Honestly I think the problem is that people expect one lerk to be able to blow up a base just because it has bile bomb. That's really daft, what's the point in a base if a starting alien can kill it? You should need a concerted attack to blow up a fortified and defended marine base.
<!--quoteo(post=1915224:date=Mar 19 2012, 10:39 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Mar 19 2012, 10:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915224"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure, so we have to wait out a useless class for a couple weeks while UWE finally gets its planned abilities in? And that's assuming everything goes well...
Give us something in the meantime, don't just take everything away.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Erm, gorges do far more useful things than bile bomb. Bile bombs are situationally useful, but generally are quite replaceable by 'more than one skulk' in most situations. Gorges are mainly important as builders of cyst chains, healers, and hydra droppers.
<!--quoteo(post=1914857:date=Mar 19 2012, 03:10 AM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Mar 19 2012, 03:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914857"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fact that the gorge is slow, fat, and a prized target ("get the piggy!") means it's a huge risk for them to even go within sight of a marine base. The payoff was that they were an answer to the siege cannon. Plus, the energy draining from bile bomb made you choose between healing and assaulting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It costs 10 res, comes with more health than an upgraded marine, and has its own healing, the only less risky class to play is the skulk.
<!--quoteo(post=1915186:date=Mar 19 2012, 02:45 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Mar 19 2012, 02:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915186"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nice. Your real class A material. Well done sir.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Cry some more. If you want to play an attack class then go play one of the others.
Elodea only wants bilebomb back cause thats all he ever did XD. The prick would just rambo into a base just to rub it in when we all started getting pissed off cause we couldnt stop it hahahahaha.
But on a more serious note, I ask you, why should a class that costs 12 res do more damage and be more devastating than an alien that costs 81 res? It makes no sense. I will gladly die to an Onos because he costs 81 dam res and needs 3 hives to get. They aliens worked for it and need to break the marine base defense so sure. As even elodea saw in the games we had, a fully stacked marine base could hold off 2 Onos attacking, but couldn't stop bilebombing gorges sneaking/rambo-ing in, hiding in the base or vents, and bombing the crap out of us when our attention was else where.
The counter arguement is that if you want to give gorge bilebomb back, then make it cost 40 res to upgrade. That way it's not so extremely overpowered because you can't just get 3 guys to all go gorge and win the game. Then if you want to go seige gorge battle tank extreme, you have to save up and pay the res for it.
If you want overpowered moves to make the game fun, fine, but they need to have big cost's to them. Being beaten by a 12 res support class is not fun at all for marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1915308:date=Mar 20 2012, 03:15 PM:name=GodofThunder)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GodofThunder @ Mar 20 2012, 03:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915308"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good points (hey that was mushokees, not me always doing the kamikaze gorge lol). Yes, bilebomb did use to be OP and had problems due to <b>balance factors</b> such as too much damage, a stupidly big aoe, and no welders/welders not dropping on death. As you mentioned, you could also sneak into marine base because obs didnt reveal shade cloak nor did it paint a big blue circle on you but you could also do this as a skulk, or a lerk, or a fade. The state of the game has changed alot since.
Lets pretend gorge bilebomb had a smaller aoe and did as much dps as skulk bite, would this be op? All im saying is that aliens need a midgame ranged counter to sentry spam. It was perfect on the gorge because it was a tradeoff energy wise. Also, I would still say vents in marine base can and still are exploited by all classes, not only the gorge.
In regards to onos vs gorge, your paying for alot more survivability, marine stunning, speed, and the ability to actually kill marines. Gorges die in less than a clip (a single marine mind you) and if their healing each other, thats less energy for bilebomb if at all. Remember that each gorge is one less skulk, or even fade at that stage of the game.
Comments
as soon as you try to improve lerk a little they become OP (anyone remember hte patch with the 'hide armor'?)
so unfortunately lerks are just very hard to balance right now..
kinda same situation with fades, which went form what... 150 armor? down to 80 armor now?
as soon as you try to improve lerk a little they become OP (anyone remember hte patch with the 'hide armor'?)
so unfortunately lerks are just very hard to balance right now..
kinda same situation with fades, which went form what... 150 armor? down to 80 armor now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The best way to figure out the true problems is to have 2 or more high level teams to play it out again and again. This is were everything is used ass effective as possible and all mistakes are punished. It would be bring to light many of the current issiues that are going on.
However this can only be done when the peformance gets to its peak so we can have enough players able to paly their best.
--
Currently the bilebomb damage is to low and lerks are rather weak vs good players. The new gas was a nice buff but lerks lost their burst damage which kept them viable(shotgun spikes).
I think bilebomb damage needs to be increased and it should do more damage to armor. Also I would like to see the shotgun spikes in the game again just less random(as a close combat weapon, risky but deadly. Requires skills to use, costs allot of energy).
The last thing is to figure out a way for aliens to brake siege postitons, lerks are not going to be able to take down arcs if there are good marines defending, you need to get plenty of bilebomb in and the lerk will easily be sniped. Aliens will need something to damage buildings from range to force marines into vunurable postitons.
as soon as you try to improve lerk a little they become OP (anyone remember hte patch with the 'hide armor'?)
so unfortunately lerks are just very hard to balance right now..
kinda same situation with fades, which went form what... 150 armor? down to 80 armor now?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that there are some players out there with above 20 FPS, who absolutely dominate in a game where 90% of players have between 10 and 15. Attempting to balance the game based on player feedback is pointless and a waste of time. Everything is going to go out of whack when/if they optimise the engine.
I just wish they had given us one of these things as the trade for the Bile bomb.
I only stick to 2 classes, Skulk and Gorge, So I hate the fact that I can't even get involved directly with the end game attack anymore.. just sit back and heal and put up Hydras.
199 was the best build we have had to date.
<!--quoteo(post=1915182:date=Mar 20 2012, 07:30 AM:name=Ejquinn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ejquinn @ Mar 20 2012, 07:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915182"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gorge is a builder and healer class, so shut up and build and heal. You're getting goo wall and some kind of healing structure anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice. Your real class A material. Well done sir.
Sure, so we have to wait out a useless class for a couple weeks while UWE finally gets its planned abilities in? And that's assuming everything goes well...
Give us something in the meantime, don't just take everything away.
Welcome to pre-release game testing. I'd rather they spend their limited man-hours putting in the planned abilities than on kludging something up to fill the gap for a couple weeks.
From that vantage, delivering Bile Bomb would be easy if the damage made it worthwhile.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly while I am sure that works, I generally just fly through quickly. Take carapace and regen and you should be able to fly right past sentries and out the far doorway without dying, especially if the rest of the aliens attack with you.
Honestly I think the problem is that people expect one lerk to be able to blow up a base just because it has bile bomb. That's really daft, what's the point in a base if a starting alien can kill it? You should need a concerted attack to blow up a fortified and defended marine base.
<!--quoteo(post=1915224:date=Mar 19 2012, 10:39 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Mar 19 2012, 10:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1915224"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure, so we have to wait out a useless class for a couple weeks while UWE finally gets its planned abilities in? And that's assuming everything goes well...
Give us something in the meantime, don't just take everything away.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Erm, gorges do far more useful things than bile bomb. Bile bombs are situationally useful, but generally are quite replaceable by 'more than one skulk' in most situations. Gorges are mainly important as builders of cyst chains, healers, and hydra droppers.
<!--quoteo(post=1914857:date=Mar 19 2012, 03:10 AM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Mar 19 2012, 03:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1914857"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fact that the gorge is slow, fat, and a prized target ("get the piggy!") means it's a huge risk for them to even go within sight of a marine base. The payoff was that they were an answer to the siege cannon. Plus, the energy draining from bile bomb made you choose between healing and assaulting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It costs 10 res, comes with more health than an upgraded marine, and has its own healing, the only less risky class to play is the skulk.
Cry some more. If you want to play an attack class then go play one of the others.
www.unknownworlds.com/community
"That's it. If you can't say something nice, say nothing at all!"
But on a more serious note, I ask you, why should a class that costs 12 res do more damage and be more devastating than an alien that costs 81 res? It makes no sense. I will gladly die to an Onos because he costs 81 dam res and needs 3 hives to get. They aliens worked for it and need to break the marine base defense so sure. As even elodea saw in the games we had, a fully stacked marine base could hold off 2 Onos attacking, but couldn't stop bilebombing gorges sneaking/rambo-ing in, hiding in the base or vents, and bombing the crap out of us when our attention was else where.
The counter arguement is that if you want to give gorge bilebomb back, then make it cost 40 res to upgrade. That way it's not so extremely overpowered because you can't just get 3 guys to all go gorge and win the game. Then if you want to go seige gorge battle tank extreme, you have to save up and pay the res for it.
If you want overpowered moves to make the game fun, fine, but they need to have big cost's to them. Being beaten by a 12 res support class is not fun at all for marines.
Good points (hey that was mushokees, not me always doing the kamikaze gorge lol). Yes, bilebomb did use to be OP and had problems due to <b>balance factors</b> such as too much damage, a stupidly big aoe, and no welders/welders not dropping on death. As you mentioned, you could also sneak into marine base because obs didnt reveal shade cloak nor did it paint a big blue circle on you but you could also do this as a skulk, or a lerk, or a fade. The state of the game has changed alot since.
Lets pretend gorge bilebomb had a smaller aoe and did as much dps as skulk bite, would this be op? All im saying is that aliens need a midgame ranged counter to sentry spam. It was perfect on the gorge because it was a tradeoff energy wise. Also, I would still say vents in marine base can and still are exploited by all classes, not only the gorge.
In regards to onos vs gorge, your paying for alot more survivability, marine stunning, speed, and the ability to actually kill marines. Gorges die in less than a clip (a single marine mind you) and if their healing each other, thats less energy for bilebomb if at all. Remember that each gorge is one less skulk, or even fade at that stage of the game.