The current IMBA-Lerk problem
weezl
Join Date: 2008-07-04 Member: 64557Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2008-07-04 Member: 64557Members, Reinforced - Shadow
<div class="IPBDescription">excuse my tone, I love the devs + NS2 <3</div>First off: MAJOR ABUSE/BUG: lerks can bile operations in mineshaft through glass
(BB= bilebomb)
It's simply not possible to play against lerks, THEY ARE SO IMBA!
Assume far into techtree if not A3+W3. Team has to hold main base, maybe another base to that, THIS ALREADY IS A CHALLENGE becuase of the lerks! If an onos or two come in and disrupt "the balance" there's a high risk of losing the secondary base (or something bad happens in MS). All this costs precious res!
Now...
...add to this, holding any RT/ground inbetween - it is IMPOSSIBLE! The marine team is only so large, and if an onos shows up somewhere, majority have to go there to have a chance to deal with it.
THAT WAS JUST KEEPING STATUS QUO!
What about pushes/progress? If a push has to have a chance of success majority of marines need to be there - READ ABOVE!
So why? Why is this 30 res weak unit such a big deal?
1. Spikes have an ABSOLUTELY INSANE DPS that can finish a marine in under TWO SECONDS! Plus these tiny light spikes seem to damage buildings like papier-mâché (see how looked up the spelling - THAT'S how serious the lerk issue is!)
2. Lerks have HUGE mobility which makes them able to flash in and out of bases.
3. They are REALLY REALLY hard to hit. My fps is among the highest, and I shoot/pistolsnipe them all the time yet I'm saying this. Imagine how it's like for players with 1y old comps? 2y old comps? even older comps?
(shotgun saves the day somewhat)
4. now add BB to this unstoppable, immortal lerk AND DO THE MATH!
Also and that BB blocks welding.
Yes I read in the design document about how the lerk should be a "disruptor" and it sounds very good and logical and all. But this is the reality now. He is a TOO EFFING GOOD disruptor. <b>There are NO SKULKS on the map since they all went lerk - SKULK BECAME REDUNDANT - against design doc!</b>
BB was fine on gorge, just don't make it do freakin 500 dmg vs buildings and shoot twice as far as GL!!!!!!!!!!!!
Suggestion:
1. Seriously nerf spikes somehow. E.g. make them less effective against anything armored. On marines who still have armor, the armor should absorb/nullify a large portion of the damage. Buildings: the attack type of spikes should do little dmg to buildings!
2. Bilebomb should be changed! Make it a DISRUPTIVE ability not a DAMAGING ability! Like making the buildings "work" at say half speed. Slows down: sentries shooting, research, ip:s spawn, armory heal, energy generation, resflow, pg cooldown, etc.......
This would REALLY add the need for strategy/teamwork instead of ramboing lerks on their own bringing marines to their knees locking them into one base that is a losing battle of not being able to weld.
Maybe it could do some small damage that is just enough to annoy marines (disruptive) but not enough that rt:s need defending against lerks very much.
3. GET BACK BB TO GORGES WHERE IT BELONGS! It fit their role PERFECTLY in ns1 - they were the only non-dmg dealers, they had every function that is not killing marines collected in one place: gorge! So they did structural dmg. BUT! <b>THEY WERE VULNERABLE - which lerks aren't! TRADEOFFS - according to design doc!</b>
my previous criticism/suggestion of BB alone:
<!--quoteo(post=1927495:date=Apr 20 2012, 04:36 AM:name=weezl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ Apr 20 2012, 04:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927495"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->bilebomb is still INSANELY imba!
the mobile-ness of the lerk makes it hard to hit/kill (gorge in ns1 was very immobile AND VULNERABLE)
add the weld locking on bilebomb, that even lasts TWICE THE BILEBOMB TIME
and finally, add several lerks herassing a base
NOW DO THE MATH!
lerks are now the top lifeform, they are almost impossible to kill, and in the unlucky case of dying, there's probably res enough to just relerk! THEY ARE THE NUMBER ONE GAME-BREAKER for marines right now. Onoses can be focused and chased with some success, fades die sometimes too - both need time to regain enough res, but lerk doesn't!
suggestion: start by making weld work at half effectiveness during bile.
if this doesn't seem to change the balance much, remove the weldblock altogether.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(BB= bilebomb)
It's simply not possible to play against lerks, THEY ARE SO IMBA!
Assume far into techtree if not A3+W3. Team has to hold main base, maybe another base to that, THIS ALREADY IS A CHALLENGE becuase of the lerks! If an onos or two come in and disrupt "the balance" there's a high risk of losing the secondary base (or something bad happens in MS). All this costs precious res!
Now...
...add to this, holding any RT/ground inbetween - it is IMPOSSIBLE! The marine team is only so large, and if an onos shows up somewhere, majority have to go there to have a chance to deal with it.
THAT WAS JUST KEEPING STATUS QUO!
What about pushes/progress? If a push has to have a chance of success majority of marines need to be there - READ ABOVE!
So why? Why is this 30 res weak unit such a big deal?
1. Spikes have an ABSOLUTELY INSANE DPS that can finish a marine in under TWO SECONDS! Plus these tiny light spikes seem to damage buildings like papier-mâché (see how looked up the spelling - THAT'S how serious the lerk issue is!)
2. Lerks have HUGE mobility which makes them able to flash in and out of bases.
3. They are REALLY REALLY hard to hit. My fps is among the highest, and I shoot/pistolsnipe them all the time yet I'm saying this. Imagine how it's like for players with 1y old comps? 2y old comps? even older comps?
(shotgun saves the day somewhat)
4. now add BB to this unstoppable, immortal lerk AND DO THE MATH!
Also and that BB blocks welding.
Yes I read in the design document about how the lerk should be a "disruptor" and it sounds very good and logical and all. But this is the reality now. He is a TOO EFFING GOOD disruptor. <b>There are NO SKULKS on the map since they all went lerk - SKULK BECAME REDUNDANT - against design doc!</b>
BB was fine on gorge, just don't make it do freakin 500 dmg vs buildings and shoot twice as far as GL!!!!!!!!!!!!
Suggestion:
1. Seriously nerf spikes somehow. E.g. make them less effective against anything armored. On marines who still have armor, the armor should absorb/nullify a large portion of the damage. Buildings: the attack type of spikes should do little dmg to buildings!
2. Bilebomb should be changed! Make it a DISRUPTIVE ability not a DAMAGING ability! Like making the buildings "work" at say half speed. Slows down: sentries shooting, research, ip:s spawn, armory heal, energy generation, resflow, pg cooldown, etc.......
This would REALLY add the need for strategy/teamwork instead of ramboing lerks on their own bringing marines to their knees locking them into one base that is a losing battle of not being able to weld.
Maybe it could do some small damage that is just enough to annoy marines (disruptive) but not enough that rt:s need defending against lerks very much.
3. GET BACK BB TO GORGES WHERE IT BELONGS! It fit their role PERFECTLY in ns1 - they were the only non-dmg dealers, they had every function that is not killing marines collected in one place: gorge! So they did structural dmg. BUT! <b>THEY WERE VULNERABLE - which lerks aren't! TRADEOFFS - according to design doc!</b>
my previous criticism/suggestion of BB alone:
<!--quoteo(post=1927495:date=Apr 20 2012, 04:36 AM:name=weezl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ Apr 20 2012, 04:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927495"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->bilebomb is still INSANELY imba!
the mobile-ness of the lerk makes it hard to hit/kill (gorge in ns1 was very immobile AND VULNERABLE)
add the weld locking on bilebomb, that even lasts TWICE THE BILEBOMB TIME
and finally, add several lerks herassing a base
NOW DO THE MATH!
lerks are now the top lifeform, they are almost impossible to kill, and in the unlucky case of dying, there's probably res enough to just relerk! THEY ARE THE NUMBER ONE GAME-BREAKER for marines right now. Onoses can be focused and chased with some success, fades die sometimes too - both need time to regain enough res, but lerk doesn't!
suggestion: start by making weld work at half effectiveness during bile.
if this doesn't seem to change the balance much, remove the weldblock altogether.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
3. They are REALLY REALLY hard to hit. My fps is among the highest, and I shoot/pistolsnipe them all the time yet I'm saying this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And similarly, a marine can kill a lerk in under two seconds. It takes only 19 rifle bullets to kill a lerk with no cara. 25 with cara. Or 10 pistol shots with no cara, and something like 13 with cara. Alternatively you can shoot once point blank with the shotgun.
When they sweep past a room, it's a bit hard to kill them with one magazine, but two marines shouldn't have any problems against one lerk. You shouldn't be running off alone anyways. If you get meds / nano from comm, lerk has no chance against you one on one.
The number one issue with lerks is hitbox. It's just way to small. You basically can't hit their wings at all, and their body seems unhittable in flight (or seems to not register properly, or something). I can aim decently, and don't mind losing 1v1 to a lerk, but I've seen some people who are _good_ with lerks, who can basically kill 2 marines in a group of 4 (and would kill off all 4 if it wasn't for energy drain), and run off with only half damage taken. That should just not happen. Also lerks should just not be able to survive suicide runs into a base with 4-5 marines like they do now. Maybe the issue is with air control, I'm not sure. Being able to instantly change direction of flight may be causing it to render weird on opponents screens so they are impossible to aim at. I'm not entirely sure. But after abusing the lerk myself, I basically can just fly up to the face of a marine, drop a quick spore, rotate 180, fly a few feet away from the marine, rotate 180 again, and just strafe back and forth while spiking their face. They go down in a couple seconds and I lose almost 0 HP because they can't hit me for whatever reason.
Right now, if an alien team goes all lerks, it's basically a clusterf***. Concentrated fire does not seem to work on them. The only thing that does is mining ceilings before they exit, so that they run into them.
The problem is only expanded when its cheap and easy to go Lerk.
This is all well and good but i've unloaded multiple clips into lerks and have them not die, this is even today after the patch when hit registration was supposed to be improved
this is not what I observe
i am the commander nano-ing and med-ing and 1,2,3 marines cannot stop one lerk hovering, who then most times even decides to retreat to heal up - meaning it survives.
other times i see health circles on players (and buildings alike) plummet before i can E+D+LMB and E+S+LMB
and when i'm not commanding, i often lead the kills (by far), when i played with Grissi last weekend we had similar stats (my ingame nick is NS_Playa, seen you many times also), so i don't know if you have a 6.5GHz LN2 e3960X running as everyday comp giving 60fps flat in ns2, but i simply don't believe you have no problems with lerks!
(...i'm pissed at lerks nothing personal...)
i know i'm having huge problems with them anyway
sure the numbers may say that, and they also said 10 rifle rounds vs skulk, but there was a thread before (don't have energy to find it) that absolutely disproved that.
and yes, if a lerk is roosting still somewhere unexpecting to be attacked, yes i can take it out BUT ONLY WITH THE WHOLE RIFLE MAG on more than w0.
completely unrelated: wep upgrades seem to increase switchaxe dmg (intended?)
I find lerks only really become absolute killing machines when they work in flocks and i'm ok with this because it means the other team is co-ordinated and working together.
As a lerk with carapace you only have to worry about the clan/pro players or large groups of marines.
That is OP for a 30 res life form.
I suggest the bile bomb area of effect is greatly reduced, so it only hits one structure, and others almost touching that structure.
The energy cost is perfect as it is.
When they sweep past a room, it's a bit hard to kill them with one magazine, but two marines shouldn't have any problems against one lerk. You shouldn't be running off alone anyways. If you get meds / nano from comm, lerk has no chance against you one on one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know anything about programming, but if this is correct then why do 5 marinese shoot 1 lerk and fail to kill it?
Because those five marines can't hit a fast moving target. Chances are they think they're the best damned player on the planet hitting every bullet when in fact they might just be grazing the Lerk every once in awhile. Any Lerk player will tell you that when you run up against a Marine who can actually aim, <u>it hurts bad</u>. Gods forbid someone can aim with a shotgun because you either die straight up or drop the majority of your health.
That doesn't change the fact that it takes no effort at all to harass every marine building on the map with skill requirement at all. I'm not the best player on alien or marine, yet as an alien I can bilebomb the hell out of marine bases and not get killed (or not care, because 30 res isn't much), but I've seen entire teams attempt to take them down and fail miserably. Repeatedly. Until the base was dead because repairing doesn't work decently either.
Shotguns seem to be the only way to somewhat reliably kill them, from my experience.
Again, I'm not saying I'm the best shot, I'm just saying this is something I've noticed from playing on both sides.
The quickfix to preven mass lerks rushing base is preventing bilebomb stack so that only one bilebomb works even though 3 lerks are spamming it. I however don't like that change since it puts a hidden limit to the game.
Now if they want to nerf lerk bielbomb runs I think they need to do something about his manuverability(maybe energy cost on flight would make it harder to do). However this would also make his spore runs weaker which is already rather risky.
They could also make it have less aoe and more single structure damage on hit but that would probably make it to easy to kill the cc.
--
About spikes, I think they are already little bit weak. Sure they are pretty useful early game vs lone marines and with skulk support but become rather useless as the game goes on. I do agree however that they might need a very small decrease in building damage (mainly to prevent early mass lerk base rushes).
You are not hitting with alot of bullets then..
Maybe make the stack recursive? 1 lerk does 100% of dmg, 2 lerks do 80% and so on.
(point being: not a good suggestion)
This seems to be a common trend in many aspects actually. Turrets are so unbelievably affective I sometimes wonder why marines are even in the game. It feels to me like I'm playing against a team of automated defences.
This seems to be a common trend in many aspects actually. Turrets are so unbelievably affective I sometimes wonder why marines are even in the game. It feels to me like I'm playing against a team of automated defences.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then you are flying too low. I have flow around a room for quite a while with 3-4 turrets and made it out alive, but I was up high where turrets don't track well.
(point being: not a good suggestion)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly +1
If we are going to complain about lerks being too strong and multiple of the them can cause havoc on a marine base, then I want to complain about the Arc trains...
(point being: not a good suggestion)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How do you not see the difference? Marines with GLs are still very squishy, and killed by onos, fade and skulks easily. Yes they can take down a hive fast, but they have to get there first, and even then, a couple fades can take them all out before they down it.
The lerk on the other hand, in a large group is unkillable and will take out and ENTIRE base in less than a minute, all for the same price as the marine GLs.
If you want them to be the same, then nerf the health/armor of the lerk down to a managable level until the hitbox issues due to performance is fixed. Then we'll be discussing apples to apples. Otherwise right now there is a MASSIVE difference.
You typically secured hive locations and major choke points with turrets in NS1, but in NS2 you rarely see them outside of Marines trying to lag the serv... err I mean turtling for 30 minutes.
As a marine commander, I often find sentries a necessity to keep my team in the game, i.e we may have 1 - 2 hive locations locked down early, but without a few sentries I just know it will be impossible to hold once fades and bilebombing lerks show up.
If you can't deal with Lerks it's because you can't hit them. Part of this is weird hitboxes in flight (and what I suspect is wings that act as a shield, or at least a diversion), but a good deal of this is that most people just suck at tracking Lerks. For that component at least, this is not a balance issue; it's a skill one.
I would agree that it's a skill issue if it wasn't for the fact that 90% of the pub population can't kill them in groups of less than 3. Yes competitive players can kill lerks, but they can kill _anything_ effectively. Telling people to "get better" is not a solution when even good players are having issues killing them.
They either need to be slowed down, or their flight needs to be tweaked so they can't instantly change direction in mid air (which on top of the fact that performance is making them hard to hit, compounds the issue). They need to be strafe fighters instead of dogfighters really. They need to fly in, take some shots / drop bile and leave. Right now they fly into a room and just circle strafe until their armor is gone, or the base is gone.
I don't know how I feel about that last sentence. Lerks right now don't have any type of predictable movement and that's something every other class in this game has. I really don't like the fact that lerks can just essentially "spin" to turn, wherein reality things that are airborne generally need to bank. The same goes with vertical flying as well, the lerk should have to point up or down and give some type of notice where it's going. As of right now saying someone is unskilled for not tracking a lerk is somewhat moot as the very basics of "tracking" aren't really there. I have to say the whole wing thing I've gotta kind of agree on though.
Sorry if my formatting is botched it's the whole second post thing.
Just tested this in Operations, Drill Access (? double res on mineshaft) and Crevice.
In the first two my height clearly made no difference when it came to taking damage. 3 turrets all placed facing the centre of the room killed a carapace lerk in about 4 seconds regardless of height.
In crevice the height often put me out of range, with me taking the exact same amount of damage the second I came into range, regardless of my height.
The turrets clearly just have a sphere of range, in which they do the exact same damage per second regardless of position. By the looks of it I don't even think they are capable of missing due to "tracking".
Lerks dont require much coordination you simply evolve to one then fly to the base. The lerk is much much faster than a gl spammer marine, and it has infinite bile bombs.
Lerks can swoop through a marine base back and forward bile bombing. Gl spammers cant do that.
In games one gl spammer goes down much faster than one lerk.
So they're quite a bit more useful than gl spammers IMO!
Lerks dont require much coordination you simply evolve to one then fly to the base. The lerk is much much faster than a gl spammer marine, and it has infinite bile bombs.
Lerks can swoop through a marine base back and forward bile bombing. Gl spammers cant do that.
In games one gl spammer goes down much faster than one lerk.
So they're quite a bit more useful than gl spammers IMO!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everything you just said was so hideously biased in favour of marines I'm surprised you didn't slap yourself when you proofread (lol) it.