IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited April 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1927978:date=Apr 20 2012, 06:12 PM:name=MaximumSquid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaximumSquid @ Apr 20 2012, 06:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927978"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've already suggested making it so Flamethrower disables lerks ability to fly<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
oooh. i like this. could make it a meta game/counter by making you very heavy and needing to tap spacebar faster. would have to lower the cost, ofc, and then make GL less effective against players. better for roles, imo, tier 2 weapons being FT and GL - either structure or armor /med dmg, leaving tier 3 responsibilities to exo/minigun/railgun
I actually for once have to disagree about nerfing something on the aliens. The lerk is perfectly acceptable how it is. Okay I take it back... maybe nerf the duration or speed of the bile a bit... so that a team can't just all go lerk and bile you upon augmentation. That does seem to happen a lot this build, but toning down the damage per second on the lerk is a good solution. Or just give bile bomb back to the gorge but have it do the exact same damage type the lerk did. Probs not gonna happen but hey theres my two cents.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
The major problem with the lerk is just how erratic his movement becomes once the network chokes or the server starts to croak. This cuts your own client fps, and also makes the movement of the lerk very erratic. Its just what happens when a 13m/sec lifeform gets updated 10 times per second on a client running at 20 fps - it will basically jump half a meter in a random direction every frame.
You can check this out for yourself. Start a local server, invite a friend. Do: "cheats 1" "j1" "hitreg" "give shotgun"
and wait while your friend does "j2" "lerk"
and comes flying over. Try to hit him now, with the server running at 30 fps and your client ticking along at 30-40 fps, at least. You should have little trouble hitting him. If you DO have trouble, try "speed 0.5" to double your effective FPS (it halves the speed of the game, so you get plenty of time to aim).
Now, load down your machine. Try "addbot 5 2" to add 5 bots to the alien side. Repeat until your fps drops to about 20. Try (without the speed fix) to hit the lerk now. Much harder.
So basically, the problem with lerks is that they are protected by bad server/client performance. Once performance increases enough (which I'm actually hopeful will happen fairly soonish), my prediction is that the lerk will need to be upgraded.
Honestly the lerk itself is fine, is bilebomb currently slightly overpowered? Absolutely, but I trust UWE to tweak the balance accordingly before launch. What matso mentioned regarding server/client registration and framerates is on the money. If you've ever caught a lerk off guard they go down like paper in less than one clip. Most often people have trouble tracking the lerk flying through their spawn at full speed and frame rates become choppy when structures have the residual acid effect and people jumping around. Also don't forget, lerk cost 30 pres and the marine LMG cost 0.
Most other pub marine lerk engagements I've encountered results in most of the marines not even shooting anywhere near the lerk typically aiming in the right direction as the lerk is about to leave the engagement area. Tight corridor engagements should go the marine way but 80% of the time marines block each others lines of fire and the bullets never even make it to the lerk.
If you've ever play any other FPS where your aim mattered you don't unload your entire clip while tracking an opponent. NS2 is hit scan so there is no real aim leading required if you really try to aim before you go full auto you can be a lot more effective.
Please don't forget that this game is still in its Alpha/Beta, this isn't a finished product and don't expect it to be, this is why very few developers have historically gone with open Alpha/Beta, Its a privilege that UWE is letting us provide input into their product development process so try to be productive in comments over flaming about balance issues. Imagine a scenario where UWE was sold and merged into a ubisoft or ea, think they would give a hoot about alpha/beta testers?
<!--quoteo(post=1928103:date=Apr 21 2012, 12:22 PM:name=Smasher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Smasher @ Apr 21 2012, 12:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1928103"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow this is such a useless thread, not worth my read. I trust UWE with the balancing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Was going to say some stuff but this quote above says it all. UW know what they are doing and its quite a way from being finished so lets wait.
Hearing lots of complaints about different stuff in game and its starting to annoy me. Come to the forums to vent your frustration and not in game. Had a game earlier where marines lost badly. Trouble is the whole marine team were too busy typing in chat moaning about stuff rather than playing...so yes you will lose.
Lots of bad attitude on servers recently and the community as a whole has been fantastic up until now. I went comm for the first time ever last night as no one else wanted to do it. I was doing ok but got lots of verbal abuse and the language used was unacceptable. I explained it was my first time and was only doing it as no one else would but the flood of insults kept going. Help and tips on commanding would have been much more helpful tbh. I maybe should be used to it, in internet land, but the level of maturity on some NS2 game servers at times is appalling.
<!--quoteo(post=1928103:date=Apr 21 2012, 08:22 AM:name=Smasher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Smasher @ Apr 21 2012, 08:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1928103"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow this is such a useless thread, not worth my read. I trust UWE with the balancing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1928103:date=Apr 21 2012, 05:22 AM:name=Smasher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Smasher @ Apr 21 2012, 05:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1928103"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow this is such a useless thread, not worth my read. I trust UWE with the balancing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for your contribution, it really has redeemed this thread to be read-worthy!
I think UWE appreciates comments on the game, after all this is a beta... As long as the comments are constructive that is, which this thread has plenty of
I agree that the lerk is hard to hit because he is so fast but he is easy to kill if you notice him. Take a shotgun/flamethrower or place some mines on the ceiling and the lerk die quick = PROBLEM SOLVED! Also you can kill him with the rifle, its realy not that hard. My best tactic is like the game with the rabbit, marines do noise, attack him, he is trying to fly away and there you are, waiting for him and shoot in his face = dead. Works so many times, just follow the lerk on the minimap and calculate his flying. Right now, i think build 205 is very well balanced, i had only 4-7 games but it was fun. I kill a fade with one shotgun hit, it was pure luck or what, but it looks like the game getting better and better...to bad release is is hot summer, so i have to put my pc and my chair next to the fridge. You know whats imba? Sentrys... i had now 2 more games and every commander spam sentrys now. One time i saw 14 sentrys in one room...lerk = instantdeath.
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Once the game comes closer to content complete (Shift/EXO) is when the real balancing begins. As much as we try.. it's very difficult to keep balancing for weekly patches. If something is completely over powered for example: the smash did some insane percentage, then we would look into balancing it for the patch. Until then we try to do our best with the time allotted for that week.
<!--quoteo(post=1928187:date=Apr 21 2012, 12:41 PM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Apr 21 2012, 12:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1928187"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Once the game comes closer to content complete (Shift/EXO) is when the real balancing begins. As much as we try.. it's very difficult to keep balancing for weekly patches. If something is completely over powered for example: the smash did some insane percentage, then we would look into balancing it for the patch. Until then we try to do our best with the time allotted for that week.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shift will make lerks more powerful, exosuit will have nothing to do with them for the part of the game where they dominate
I think it still comes down to performance more than presence/absence of game mechanics...
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
When shift comes in, expect the normal movement of skulks and lerks to be slightly downgraded to make room for the celerity buff. Adding celerity on top of walljump would be .. over the top.
<!--quoteo(post=1928181:date=Apr 21 2012, 12:30 PM:name=Ryne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ryne @ Apr 21 2012, 12:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1928181"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thanks for your contribution, it really has redeemed this thread to be read-worthy!
I think UWE appreciates comments on the game, after all this is a beta...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't get me wrong, I'm all for threads with analyzing and constructive criticism. I just found this thread mostly (not all ofc.) being heavy-biased whining, which imho doesn't really do that much good to anyone.
I speak only for me of course.. So please, carry on :)
and to "add something" to the thread: Good lerk>bad marine bad lerk<good maring What we need to look at when balancing is when the marines are "good", while the aliens (Lerk) are "good" aswell. I.e. competetive matches, can't really expect to balance anything if mostly taking pub:ing into account.
My personal impression regarding the Lerk, both from a marine aswell as from an alien perspective, is that it's closer to being balanced than it has been for a really long time, which I like:)
<!--quoteo(post=1928422:date=Apr 22 2012, 05:20 AM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Apr 22 2012, 05:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1928422"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When shift comes in, expect the normal movement of skulks and lerks to be slightly downgraded to make room for the celerity buff. Adding celerity on top of walljump would be .. over the top.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And then when every marine player has acceptable FPS and aliens are useless we'll raise the speed caps again? Or if we don't do that, are you prepared to have a situation like NS1 where players choose the hive type, but "Shift" is always the superior choice?
<!--quoteo(post=1928463:date=Apr 22 2012, 08:45 AM:name=Smasher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Smasher @ Apr 22 2012, 08:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1928463"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What we need to look at when balancing is when the marines are "good", while the aliens (Lerk) are "good" aswell. I.e. competetive matches, can't really expect to balance anything if mostly taking pub:ing into account.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Normally I'd agree with most of this. However, I've been playing regularly since like...October 2011 (look to the left!). What I've noticed is that people barely played the lerk until bile bomb was given to it and then boosted in power. Now people flock to the class in huge numbers, because it's brutally easy to play. It's not really true that "bad lerk < good marine" because bad lerks get away with so much that they can essentially win games without trying.
When the entire playerbase doesn't care about something, but then they suddenly all love/hate it, and it defines the metagame, chances are you've created a "flavour of the month" that needs to be squashed.
After playing b205 extensively, I agree that lerks are a bit too powerful atm. Combined with the fact that augmentation unlocks bile bomb faster than b204's second hive, a lot of khamms have resorted to all-in lerk rushes because they are devastatingly effective. Ofc the problem is bile bomb, which is made more effective due to the ability to stack. Five lerks bombing marine base locks up a handful of marines on welding duty, while the lerks fly by generally unscathed. If there is only one marine welding, the lerks might be more pressured, but the base usually just goes down faster.
A simple fix for this would be to limit bile bombs to one application at all times. It would make welding more effective, allowing more marines to spend their time gunning down lerks instead. A few lerks could still bomb the same area to ensure complete coverage of structures and to ensure that bile bomb is applied at all times, but five+ lerks might be a waste. This might encourage a more diverse range of lifeforms.
Whenever I'm not helping in bile bomb rushes, I find the lerk very fun to play "normally". This is why I'm against nerfing something like the lerk's spikes. Like Tempest and matso have said, lerks may seem OP only because of poor server/client performance. To those of us that have 120Hz monitors, we can tell you that there is a world of difference between 60 and 120 FPS. I absolutely guarantee that lerks (and everything else) will die faster when the game is optimized to match our refresh rates. I know that 120 FPS is a very long stretch, so 60 will have to do for the near future.
Hopefully, by then, we will see less of this happening:
The lerk is a weird class that I want to buff and debuff at the same time.
Spikes from afar, dive-bombing spores and spamming bile-bombs: the whole class is geared up to avoid direct conflict which is a pity. I'd like for there to be at least one reason why the lerk should get in close to be really effective because otherwise I predict a scenario where all the good lerks never die and the average ones fall like flies or take way too much damage quickly to be of any use.
I just wonder whether the risk of flying in for visual nuisance will be worth the price once performance improves. If/Once we reach that point, lerks are going to be very stale in combat - trading spikes for bullets and probably losing out most times.
<!--quoteo(post=1928558:date=Apr 22 2012, 08:44 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Apr 22 2012, 08:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1928558"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spikes from afar do like no damage. Bile bombs and spores already have to be applied from up close to actually hit.
So um...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong! The min DMG of spikes is 20 no matter how far away you are. The max DMG is 24.
<!--quoteo(post=1928562:date=Apr 22 2012, 03:18 PM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Apr 22 2012, 03:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1928562"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wrong! The min DMG of spikes is 20 no matter how far away you are. The max DMG is 24.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, but they have enormous accuracy spread. Do you deal a lot of damage to people with spikes at range? If so, they're probably sitting still and not killing you with pistols...
I think Lerk is pretty much fine as is except that weld-lock is a bit too good right now.
Judging by res, Lerk should be closer to a Fade than a Skulk in terms of how scary it is, and I'd say it's at just the right balance for that. I will chase a Lerk down a hallway by myself if I have a shotgun and some armor, and my health isn't already low. I will <i>not</i> do that to a Fade.
I don't manage to take Lerk's down terribly often because they're damn hard to hit, but I don't die to them that often either, I mostly just see them damage and run. If you die to series of spaced out hit and run attacks, it's your commander's fault for not medding.
<!--quoteo(post=1928563:date=Apr 22 2012, 09:21 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Apr 22 2012, 09:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1928563"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right, but they have enormous accuracy spread. Do you deal a lot of damage to people with spikes at range? If so, they're probably sitting still and not killing you with pistols...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not often, but I also miss alot in closecombat too. Infact I hit moving targets better than not moving ones because of this big spread.
Spores aren't really used to provide any kind of damage because they are absolutely useless at it. It takes less than a second to move away from them. Bile-bombs are up-close to structures and I can't see them being used in any kind of situation where marines are actually around once performance increases because it will be damage at the cost of considerable time healing up or considerable risk of dying. Spikes do crap damage which is why I said they'd be losing out most of the time.
It's hard to view the class as anything other than semi-distance nuisance + while-you're-away harassment.
Do you actually play NS2? Every game I've played for the last 4 builds has been decided completely by the presence or absence of lerks. That includes harassing the marines' base right in front of them and doing LOTS of damage with spores (by placing them on armories etc).
I wasn't commenting on its current effectiveness - I know that lerks are important. I'm commenting on where I perceive lerks to be in the future. They're lol-effective right now, even in low-skill hands but I can't see that lasting forever.
Anyone here saying Lerks are fine must be playing a different game. Ill admit Im new to the game... but so are a few of my friends and we all see it. Its not a L2aim thing either, my aim is fine. Lerks are IMBA. Sure I can camp their exit doorway and gun em down... Ive already heard the perfect solution for them on these forums. Ive been in sooo many games already. Noob ones, good organized team ones etc... it has always been ending the same way unless Marines manage a rush kill in less than 5 mins. Lerks with BB force the Marines to turtle up late game and just get ravaged.
<!--quoteo(post=1928613:date=Apr 22 2012, 07:01 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Apr 22 2012, 07:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1928613"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wasn't commenting on its current effectiveness - I know that lerks are important. I'm commenting on where I perceive lerks to be in the future. They're lol-effective right now, even in low-skill hands but I can't see that lasting forever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Apart from my more long-term suggestion to change the lerk-BB and give gorge back the classic gorge-BB, which would be a quite big change, I'd like to see the following two "quick-fixes":
1. Most important, welderblock be removed or atleast decreased to only slowing down welding.
2a. Make the lerk movement ability cost energy, just like it did in NS1! If you flap like mad to do advanced maneuvers you will have less energy for abilities. If you fly more predictably (more vulnerable) means more ability energy. (and why on earth is fade shadowstep still an energy-FREE ability too???)
2b. Another more longterm fix is doing something with FT to lerks. If their flight would cost energy, then FT would already be much more useful. Right now it just does small dmg over time (which is negligible) by setting on fire and slowing energy regen. Lerks don't fear FT and they can still drop their payload and go heal. So FT is currently utterly useless. No flying while on fire is way too drastic, but maybe flying slower? Not able to flap as much?
About the BB dmg to not stack, I don't agree. It would make it a useless and frustrating ability.
<!--quoteo(post=1928632:date=Apr 22 2012, 08:02 PM:name=weezl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ Apr 22 2012, 08:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1928632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Make the lerk movement ability cost energy, just like it did in NS1!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if you do this you have to remove the flamethrower from the game or make it so lerks don't need to constantly pour all their energy into spores in order to do anything remotely effective
<!--quoteo(post=1928187:date=Apr 21 2012, 06:41 PM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Apr 21 2012, 06:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1928187"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Once the game comes closer to content complete (Shift/EXO) is when the real balancing begins. As much as we try.. it's very difficult to keep balancing for weekly patches. If something is completely over powered for example: the smash did some insane percentage, then we would look into balancing it for the patch. Until then we try to do our best with the time allotted for that week.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
Everything that's been said already is fine, but it's too early to talk about 'tweaking' this and that until all elements that are planned for the game are instituted.
Otherwise most people are correct - Aliens are winning at least 75% of matches, Bilebomb is ridiculous, lerks are very difficult to hit, alien commander has nothing to spend res on late game, turret farms are ultra cheese and the only way for marines to win if they don't arc/nade rush, etc. etc.
I don't care about balance at this point, develop all the elements you want in the game then worry about balance.
Comments
oooh. i like this. could make it a meta game/counter by making you very heavy and needing to tap spacebar faster. would have to lower the cost, ofc, and then make GL less effective against players. better for roles, imo, tier 2 weapons being FT and GL - either structure or armor /med dmg, leaving tier 3 responsibilities to exo/minigun/railgun
I trust UWE with the balancing.
You can check this out for yourself. Start a local server, invite a friend. Do:
"cheats 1"
"j1"
"hitreg"
"give shotgun"
and wait while your friend does
"j2"
"lerk"
and comes flying over. Try to hit him now, with the server running at 30 fps and your client ticking along at 30-40 fps, at least. You should have little trouble hitting him. If you DO have trouble, try "speed 0.5" to double your effective FPS (it halves the speed of the game, so you get plenty of time to aim).
Now, load down your machine. Try "addbot 5 2" to add 5 bots to the alien side. Repeat until your fps drops to about 20. Try (without the speed fix) to hit the lerk now. Much harder.
So basically, the problem with lerks is that they are protected by bad server/client performance. Once performance increases enough (which I'm actually hopeful will happen fairly soonish), my prediction is that the lerk will need to be upgraded.
Most other pub marine lerk engagements I've encountered results in most of the marines not even shooting anywhere near the lerk typically aiming in the right direction as the lerk is about to leave the engagement area. Tight corridor engagements should go the marine way but 80% of the time marines block each others lines of fire and the bullets never even make it to the lerk.
If you've ever play any other FPS where your aim mattered you don't unload your entire clip while tracking an opponent. NS2 is hit scan so there is no real aim leading required if you really try to aim before you go full auto you can be a lot more effective.
Please don't forget that this game is still in its Alpha/Beta, this isn't a finished product and don't expect it to be, this is why very few developers have historically gone with open Alpha/Beta, Its a privilege that UWE is letting us provide input into their product development process so try to be productive in comments over flaming about balance issues. Imagine a scenario where UWE was sold and merged into a ubisoft or ea, think they would give a hoot about alpha/beta testers?
I trust UWE with the balancing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Was going to say some stuff but this quote above says it all. UW know what they are doing and its quite a way from being finished so lets wait.
Hearing lots of complaints about different stuff in game and its starting to annoy me. Come to the forums to vent your frustration and not in game. Had a game earlier where marines lost badly. Trouble is the whole marine team were too busy typing in chat moaning about stuff rather than playing...so yes you will lose.
Lots of bad attitude on servers recently and the community as a whole has been fantastic up until now. I went comm for the first time ever last night as no one else wanted to do it. I was doing ok but got lots of verbal abuse and the language used was unacceptable. I explained it was my first time and was only doing it as no one else would but the flood of insults kept going. Help and tips on commanding would have been much more helpful tbh. I maybe should be used to it, in internet land, but the level of maturity on some NS2 game servers at times is appalling.
Sal
I trust UWE with the balancing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spoken like a true hero.
I trust UWE with the balancing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for your contribution, it really has redeemed this thread to be read-worthy!
I think UWE appreciates comments on the game, after all this is a beta... As long as the comments are constructive that is, which this thread has plenty of
Take a shotgun/flamethrower or place some mines on the ceiling and the lerk die quick = PROBLEM SOLVED!
Also you can kill him with the rifle, its realy not that hard.
My best tactic is like the game with the rabbit, marines do noise, attack him, he is trying to fly away and there you are, waiting for him and shoot in his face = dead.
Works so many times, just follow the lerk on the minimap and calculate his flying.
Right now, i think build 205 is very well balanced, i had only 4-7 games but it was fun.
I kill a fade with one shotgun hit, it was pure luck or what, but it looks like the game getting better and better...to bad release is is hot summer, so i have to put my pc and my chair next to the fridge.
You know whats imba? Sentrys... i had now 2 more games and every commander spam sentrys now.
One time i saw 14 sentrys in one room...lerk = instantdeath.
Shift will make lerks more powerful, exosuit will have nothing to do with them for the part of the game where they dominate
I think it still comes down to performance more than presence/absence of game mechanics...
I think UWE appreciates comments on the game, after all this is a beta...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for threads with analyzing and constructive criticism. I just found this thread mostly (not all ofc.) being heavy-biased whining, which imho doesn't really do that much good to anyone.
I speak only for me of course..
So please, carry on :)
and to "add something" to the thread:
Good lerk>bad marine
bad lerk<good maring
What we need to look at when balancing is when the marines are "good", while the aliens (Lerk) are "good" aswell. I.e. competetive matches, can't really expect to balance anything if mostly taking pub:ing into account.
My personal impression regarding the Lerk, both from a marine aswell as from an alien perspective, is that it's closer to being balanced than it has been for a really long time, which I like:)
And then when every marine player has acceptable FPS and aliens are useless we'll raise the speed caps again?
Or if we don't do that, are you prepared to have a situation like NS1 where players choose the hive type, but "Shift" is always the superior choice?
<!--quoteo(post=1928463:date=Apr 22 2012, 08:45 AM:name=Smasher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Smasher @ Apr 22 2012, 08:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1928463"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What we need to look at when balancing is when the marines are "good", while the aliens (Lerk) are "good" aswell. I.e. competetive matches, can't really expect to balance anything if mostly taking pub:ing into account.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Normally I'd agree with most of this. However, I've been playing regularly since like...October 2011 (look to the left!). What I've noticed is that people barely played the lerk until bile bomb was given to it and then boosted in power. Now people flock to the class in huge numbers, because it's brutally easy to play. It's not really true that "bad lerk < good marine" because bad lerks get away with so much that they can essentially win games without trying.
When the entire playerbase doesn't care about something, but then they suddenly all love/hate it, and it defines the metagame, chances are you've created a "flavour of the month" that needs to be squashed.
A simple fix for this would be to limit bile bombs to one application at all times. It would make welding more effective, allowing more marines to spend their time gunning down lerks instead. A few lerks could still bomb the same area to ensure complete coverage of structures and to ensure that bile bomb is applied at all times, but five+ lerks might be a waste. This might encourage a more diverse range of lifeforms.
Whenever I'm not helping in bile bomb rushes, I find the lerk very fun to play "normally". This is why I'm against nerfing something like the lerk's spikes. Like Tempest and matso have said, lerks may seem OP only because of poor server/client performance. To those of us that have 120Hz monitors, we can tell you that there is a world of difference between 60 and 120 FPS. I absolutely guarantee that lerks (and everything else) will die faster when the game is optimized to match our refresh rates. I know that 120 FPS is a very long stretch, so 60 will have to do for the near future.
Hopefully, by then, we will see less of this happening:
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/QksUb.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Spikes from afar, dive-bombing spores and spamming bile-bombs: the whole class is geared up to avoid direct conflict which is a pity. I'd like for there to be at least one reason why the lerk should get in close to be really effective because otherwise I predict a scenario where all the good lerks never die and the average ones fall like flies or take way too much damage quickly to be of any use.
I just wonder whether the risk of flying in for visual nuisance will be worth the price once performance improves. If/Once we reach that point, lerks are going to be very stale in combat - trading spikes for bullets and probably losing out most times.
So um...
So um...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong! The min DMG of spikes is 20 no matter how far away you are. The max DMG is 24.
Right, but they have enormous accuracy spread. Do you deal a lot of damage to people with spikes at range? If so, they're probably sitting still and not killing you with pistols...
Judging by res, Lerk should be closer to a Fade than a Skulk in terms of how scary it is, and I'd say it's at just the right balance for that. I will chase a Lerk down a hallway by myself if I have a shotgun and some armor, and my health isn't already low. I will <i>not</i> do that to a Fade.
I don't manage to take Lerk's down terribly often because they're damn hard to hit, but I don't die to them that often either, I mostly just see them damage and run. If you die to series of spaced out hit and run attacks, it's your commander's fault for not medding.
Not often, but I also miss alot in closecombat too. Infact I hit moving targets better than not moving ones because of this big spread.
It's hard to view the class as anything other than semi-distance nuisance + while-you're-away harassment.
Dont let BB stack on structures. Just one active.
Fair enough.
1. Most important, welderblock be removed or atleast decreased to only slowing down welding.
2a. Make the lerk movement ability cost energy, just like it did in NS1!
If you flap like mad to do advanced maneuvers you will have less energy for abilities. If you fly more predictably (more vulnerable) means more ability energy.
(and why on earth is fade shadowstep still an energy-FREE ability too???)
2b. Another more longterm fix is doing something with FT to lerks. If their flight would cost energy, then FT would already be much more useful. Right now it just does small dmg over time (which is negligible) by setting on fire and slowing energy regen. Lerks don't fear FT and they can still drop their payload and go heal. So FT is currently utterly useless.
No flying while on fire is way too drastic, but maybe flying slower? Not able to flap as much?
About the BB dmg to not stack, I don't agree. It would make it a useless and frustrating ability.
if you do this you have to remove the flamethrower from the game or make it so lerks don't need to constantly pour all their energy into spores in order to do anything remotely effective
guess what's not gonna happen
This.
Everything that's been said already is fine, but it's too early to talk about 'tweaking' this and that until all elements that are planned for the game are instituted.
Otherwise most people are correct - Aliens are winning at least 75% of matches, Bilebomb is ridiculous, lerks are very difficult to hit, alien commander has nothing to spend res on late game, turret farms are ultra cheese and the only way for marines to win if they don't arc/nade rush, etc. etc.
I don't care about balance at this point, develop all the elements you want in the game then worry about balance.