recycle vs nothing
BloodyIron
Join Date: 2009-11-09 Member: 69321Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2009-11-09 Member: 69321Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Marines have the ability to recycle their buildings, they even have nano shield. Aliens have nothing of the sort except maybe mist and crags. Once a building is placed, there's no going back.
This begs the question, what do aliens get in stead of recycle? Is the game already balanced to anticipate this? 10 res for a harvester you lose seconds later is pretty brutal, when marines get it back because such a building isn't even constructed and "dusts".
I just think this should be looked at, I'm not sure if this is balanced.
This begs the question, what do aliens get in stead of recycle? Is the game already balanced to anticipate this? 10 res for a harvester you lose seconds later is pretty brutal, when marines get it back because such a building isn't even constructed and "dusts".
I just think this should be looked at, I'm not sure if this is balanced.
Comments
This begs the question, what do aliens get in stead of recycle? Is the game already balanced to anticipate this? 10 res for a harvester you lose seconds later is pretty brutal, when marines get it back because such a building isn't even constructed and "dusts".
I just think this should be looked at, I'm not sure if this is balanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't simply look at balance as a parity between aliens and marines. both teams have different resource requirements/costs and timings. No recycle is actually a balancing mechanism. Think about where you're expanding before you do.
Yes I understand the asymetrical balancing act of this game. But you can't just arbitrarily give abilities without considering both sides. Considering cysts no longer grant vision, it would seem to me that aliens have less to boast compared to recycling. Unless you care to prove me wrong?
Good luck, dude!
The most obvious reason to have recycle is for ending games that are not ending and are boring everyone to death. Why only one side can do this is beyond me.
Useful Alien Tech Research Costs not including structure costs: 55 (For Cara + Augment)
Are aliens really so starved for res that you can't make due with 55 TRes cost for researching? Cysts don't even cost TRes anymore and you don't even need to mist the hive anymore either. Harvesters also got their health buffed and everything got their maturation time decreased so harvesters mature and get health even faster so it takes even longer. The only thing different is that you need to pump out drifters a lot more.
Do you really need recycle or anything to compensate for the lack of it?
When a marine attacks a harvester, the commander can do nothing. They lose the harvester and multiple cysts if nobody assists.
Your argument point of technology is valid but only to a limited scope. Even still, you're not accounting for additional hives enabling a player to get more than one upgrade as an alien, such as silence or regen. That's 40 tres + 10 for second upgrade building + 10 for second upgrade.
Also consider, that when sentries become less viable for whatever reason the commander can recycle them, even if they are misplaced. Furthermore, when a marine commander places a building, nobody builds it, and it is attacked, the team gets the resources back because it "dusts". Aliens have no similar mechanism of returning resources spent, ever.
<!--quoteo(post=1937567:date=May 19 2012, 11:51 PM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ May 19 2012, 11:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937567"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Total Marine Research Costs in TRes: About 320
Useful Alien Tech Research Costs not including structure costs: 55 (For Cara + Augment)
Are aliens really so starved for res that you can't make due with 55 TRes cost for researching? Cysts don't even cost TRes anymore and you don't even need to mist the hive anymore either. Harvesters also got their health buffed and everything got their maturation time decreased so harvesters mature and get health even faster so it takes even longer. The only thing different is that you need to pump out drifters a lot more.
Do you really need recycle or anything to compensate for the lack of it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1937572:date=May 20 2012, 12:23 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ May 20 2012, 12:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937572"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In SC2, zerg can only build on creep, while terran can build anywhere. This is a fundamental difference between the two teams, and therefore terran is superior.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nydus worm says hi :)
Also every race in SC2 can cancel buildings, and there's no 'recycling' for any race (red alert 2 has this with yuri's grinder, though)
sometimes, there's absolutely no point making this comparison, and I think this is one of those times
I'm merely demonstrating that the argument of "team A has x, while team B does not, therefore team A superior to team B" does not follow. As much as I'm sure internetexplorer would hate to admit it, this "issue" is one of personal aesthetics opinion, not balance.
To put it in other words; as Champloo potentially showed, the alien team is not lacking in power. Thus, if the alien team was to gain the ability to recycle, they would surely have to lose something else to compensate. Now a marine commander who rarely if ever uses the recycle ability would obviously not want this change to take place, while one who does, would. Its personal choice, not balance.
This is why "its an asymmetry thing" is the best argument in this case, because it is one of the leading guidelines for aesthetic choices, wherever possible.
this doesn't hold either, but you know that :)
having a mechanic for one side and no equivalent for the other is nothing to do with aesthetics - if you want to pretend to be smart by namedropping fields in philosophy, it's more about ontology than anything (something versus nothing)
So far the only thing that comes to mind as a counter-balance to recycle is that all alien buildings heal themselves. This certainly is prevalant, but I do not quite think this is sufficient enough to make up the disparity in resources saved.
I'm a positivist, and I hold the view that everything can be quantified. To me, a balanced game is an equation, with a number of abilities from one team on the one side and a bunch of abilities from the other team on the other side. Lets say the equation is 1=1. Anything worth adding to this equation is non zero, and any non zero addition must be counter acted, either by adding to the other side, or subtracting from the same side.
This may or may not be the case, but its how I view the topic.
<!--quoteo(post=1937578:date=May 20 2012, 08:49 AM:name=BloodyIron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BloodyIron @ May 20 2012, 08:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937578"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You guys are putting words where there were none. I not once proposed a recycle for the aliens, or anything. I am trying to start a dialogue about this, and to see what could be impelemented to address such concerns which would be appropriate for the atmosphere of NS2, as in not an exact copy of recycle, but something that does address the original concern, that the Marines can retain significantly more resources than aliens.
So far the only thing that comes to mind as a counter-balance to recycle is that all alien buildings heal themselves. This certainly is prevalant, but I do not quite think this is sufficient enough to make up the disparity in resources saved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, I was not aware that this was your root concern. It is my opinion that, at any one time, marines hold more vulnerable structures on the map than aliens do, and as a result, lose more structures to enemy attacks. This was not the case in the previous build, with the woefully weakened harvesters, and the repercussions were clearly visible. I'm just saying that traditionally, due to aliens superior mobility, and ability to deal large amounts of damage quickly, marines have been given recycle, while aliens have not.
Starcraft succeeds as a game because the very basics (town halls, workers, refineries, tier 1 production timings) are very close to being symmetric. It's a great way to make sure the foundations of a game are balanced and easy to tweak, without hurting the overall goal of asymmetry too much. Recycling doesn't have to be an expression of the game's "flavour" (humans are ingenious and re-use things, aliens recycle organic matter etc etc) - it can just be an abstract mechanic that is put on both sides to make a basic part of the game fair...figure out the flavour explanation after.
TL;DR Aliens don't need recycle cause they are flooded with TRes and even if they weren't they have higher mobility which means they can respond to attacks on structures much more quickly than marines.
This is essentially the point that I am trying to make. Its all personal, based on your approach to the game and play style. Some avid alien player that relies heavily on parasite's ears just pricked up, and thought that giving marines a parasite equivalent would be a great idea. Yes, there is no reason <b>not </b>to add it, just as there is no proof God <b>doesn't </b>exist.
<!--quoteo(post=1937582:date=May 20 2012, 09:00 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 20 2012, 09:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937582"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In the general case, aliens can never 'try' building something and then decide it wasn't worth it, but marines always can. It's a very fundamental imbalance -<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You see how this is the "team A has x, while team B does not, therefore team A superior to team B" argument I explained before, right? It can be easily demonstrated that this line of thought does not necessarily follow.
<!--quoteo(post=1937582:date=May 20 2012, 09:00 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 20 2012, 09:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937582"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if it is left 'as-is' you have to add a giant structure of other factors to balance it, when you could have just made this one small part of the game symmetric and solved it in one swift motion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, this is true. When you create asymmetries, other, usually far more complex factors are introduced to balance them. These complex factors are the fundamental draw which asymmetric games have. Which game elements are left symmetric, and which aren't are, as I hope the beginning of this post demonstrates, purely personal. And when such a choice arises, only one personal opinion matters; that of the developers.
When a marine attacks a harvester, the commander can do nothing. They lose the harvester and multiple cysts if nobody assists.
Your argument point of technology is valid but only to a limited scope. Even still, you're not accounting for additional hives enabling a player to get more than one upgrade as an alien, such as silence or regen. That's 40 tres + 10 for second upgrade building + 10 for second upgrade.
Also consider, that when sentries become less viable for whatever reason the commander can recycle them, even if they are misplaced. Furthermore, when a marine commander places a building, nobody builds it, and it is attacked, the team gets the resources back because it "dusts". Aliens have no similar mechanism of returning resources spent, ever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Augment: Gives second tier abilities to all alien life forms; bile bomb, leap, stomp, stab for fade I think; don't know cause don't play fades
Carapace: Gives universal applicability to all aliens in terms of survivability
Regen: Gives advantage to teams that haven't dropped Crags or Gorges
Silence: Pretty much just skulks
Camouflage: loljokemechanic
Celerity: Only going to be useful on infestation last time I heard
Therefore carapace is the best upgrade while regen comes in second. Camouflage is pretty useless and silence is only good on skulks really. Celerity or whatever it is is going to only affect speed on hives so it's pretty pointless unless you just have the entire map dominated at which point you're winning anyways so it's irrelevant.
Augment gives second tier abilities (notably stomp and leap) so there's no real argument on its necessity.
If you want to whine that I didn't include resource costs for structures which I specifically said that I didn't because I judged marine research costs the same way then here is the entire resource costs:
Carapace (10)+ Shell (10) + Regen (10) + 2nd Hive (40) + Shell (10) + Augment (25) + Crag Hive (20) = 125
If for some reason you just can't live without silence the total comes to 145 for shade hive. Another hive for regen+silence+cara makes the total 205, which is still at least 100 less than marine's total research costs. So no matter how much you want to argue 205, 125, 145, 55, and 65 are all less than 325 (I calculated marine's total research costs once, that was about the figure).
Therefore aliens don't need as much TRes as marines. Even if they did recycle isn't universally applicable or detrimental to marine play; average recycle benefits over losing the actual structure might amount to about 30-50 TRes in a normally distributed curve, and that's being pretty generous. Also taking into account that recycling generally means the marines are <i>losing</i> something it's basically just a form of cutting your losses, and if you're losing you're already in a bad position.
on the other hand, I can name tons of asymmetric game mechanics that exist in their own small context and aren't complicated because they were applied to something that works asymmetrically
let's look at the workers in starcraft:
<ul><li>drone - regenerates health over time, dies to make a building but buildings cost less than for other races</li><li>SCV - only regenerates when repaired/healed externally, stays alive through making a building, buildings cost more since the SCV stays alive</li><li>probe - regenerates shields over time, places a building and goes back to mining immediately, but buildings cost more/build slower to compensate</li></ul>
See that? All 3 workers create buildings differently, but I can still describe how that's counterbalanced in one sentence. In NS2 when you try to make it so one side exists without recycle, you have to start talking about PRes, TRes, usefulness of structures, opportunity costs, tech trees and all kinds of really complicated ideas. The workers in Starcraft don't care about <i>what </i>they're building, only how it's built. The presence or absence of recycling affects the potential of every structure that is ever built - are you prepared to look at the design of the game and verify that every alien structure truly 'works' without recycle?
The workers all mine minerals and gas<i> the exact same way</i>, because it's so fundamental to all 3 races that it would be a nightmare to try making it asymmetric (and there would be very little to gain from it). They all cancel unfinished buildings the exact same way (and the proportion that is refunded is the exact same, because the base mining rates are the same too).
The Khamm is going to get "Echo" I think, an ability that instantly moves structures. Harvesters, forward Crags, Hives...
Actually, what happens is someone who has no experience with NS gets mad, and then I educate him on the subject while a new round starts. Everyone starts playing the new round and has fun, and the fact that someone recycled is forgotten in 30 seconds.
<!--quoteo(post=1937588:date=May 20 2012, 03:19 AM:name=Namm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Namm @ May 20 2012, 03:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937588"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Khamm is going to get "Echo" I think, an ability that instantly moves structures. Harvesters, forward Crags, Hives...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This doesn't solve the fundamental problem, though. Sure, you can move your whip around, but if your whip is utterly useless, you can't sell it to make a desperately-needed crag. Marines <i>can </i>do something like this with <i>any</i> building. That includes making a harvester when they're below 10 TRes, which is something so fundamental that aliens really need to be able to recycle for this reason alone.
This is an example of where someone tries to make an 'equivalent' but it's not really equivalent, and the pursuit of asymmetry is complicating the design to no real gain.
<ul><li>drone - regenerates health over time, dies to make a building but buildings cost less than for other races</li><li>SCV - only regenerates when repaired/healed externally, stays alive through making a building, buildings cost more since the SCV stays alive</li><li>probe - regenerates shields over time, places a building and goes back to mining immediately, but buildings cost more/build slower to compensate</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a good example of asymmetry in a closed environment, allow me to provide my own.
let's look at the primary rifles in Counter-Strike:
<ul><li>M4- respectable damage, high accuracy, does not kill one shot to the head, silencer attachment</li><li>AK-47 - higher damage, quite reduced accuracy, kills one shot to the head, no silencer attachment</li></ul>
Oooh, what a rousingly asymmetric game Counter-Strike proved to be.
come at me
The Khamm is going to get "Echo" I think, an ability that instantly moves structures. Harvesters, forward Crags, Hives...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Echo in that form would be ridiculous especially if it moves whips. And unless aliens get HUUUUGE TRes sinks they're going to have even more of an overflowed TRes because they'll be able to actually save structures unless it has some severe penalty.
If marines have 7 TRes and 0 extractors, they can sell a building to make an extractor.
If aliens have 7 TRes and 0 extractors, they are all in: they have to win without making or spending any more res, because they can never get any more.
Is this acceptable to you? Why or why not? [5]
If marines have 7 TRes and 0 extractors, they can sell a building to make an extractor.
If aliens have 7 TRes and 0 extractors, they are all in: they have to win without making or spending any more res, because they can never get any more.
Is this acceptable to you? Why or why not? [5]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If marines have buildings that aren't completely dead then yes, they can slowly attempt to comeback against what are probably 1:94 odds. Regardless I don't think you properly acknowledge that you've basically lost if you're down that many RTs.
Theoretical situations like this are pretty redundant because they fail to acknowledge the fact that you're going to lose anyways cause you practically have nothing. Also....what structures aside from the hive would you even have to recycle....? Did you rush a carapace immediately and not even bother with getting more RTs? Did you drop a whip down that you could have just saved the TRes for anyways? Did you acknowledge the fact that if you have a small amount of RTs and you make a heavy TRes investment that leaves you below 10 you stand a chance of getting res locked? Winning by res lock is a valid de facto victory that penalizes overcommitment on both sides. This being said a team would lose otherwise even if they hadn't been res locked because getting reduced to 1 RT is essentially GG right there anyways.
When I am marine and one of my extractors gets attacked, I nano shield it and recycle it. I get 7 resources back, and if we regain that territory rebuilding is very easy. If we go down to 1 RT I can retain up to 14 resources, a pretty substantial amount.
When I am alien and one of my harvesters gets attacked, I can't do anything, and typically we lose all 10 resources, and whatever resources (energy now, pres last patch) we spent on cysts. If this happens again we are net -20 + cysts, leaving us with 1 RT and 20 less resources.
If this happens repeatedly, the discrepancy adds up quickly, not only in the actual resources your team saves, but marines can recover much quicker, providing compounding benefits and earnings for the team.
It is easy to say "give aliens recycle", however that's not what I propose. I do however propose something be done to address this discrepancy, because I agree in a zero sum system. This game, as are many others, are counter balanced asymetrically. A true balance results in a zero sum. So what can we do about this?
What about allowing a harvester to uproot, and while uprooted they are incredibly tough to destroy?
Perhaps they could temporarily retract into the ground/res node?
Maybe they could gain an ability based on what type of hives are currently available? (this could lead to plenty of variety)
I remain confident in my belief that something should be done about this.
<!--quoteo(post=1937581:date=May 20 2012, 12:56 AM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ May 20 2012, 12:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937581"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really don't see why you would even care aliens didn't have recycle. That's like caring that marines have no reciprocal to parasite or to hallucinations (even though hallucinations are completely pointless in this build) or the lack of a marine equivalent to the Gorge. The only thing aliens need to spend TRes on is cara, augment, and harvesters as well, as I previously mentioned. They do not need any sort of mechanic to conserve TRes because they should be flooded with it. The only time it's ever even a problem is the first five minutes of the game and then it's usually easy going as long as you've held at least 3 (marines need to hold at least 4). There aren't any problems with a <i>deficiency</i> in the amount of TRes that aliens get, and even if they did I still wouldn't see a need for a recycling reciprocal mechanic for aliens because aliens are mobile while marines are not; marines have to take a while to get to structure getting munched on while aliens <i>should</i> be there in about 8-15 seconds most often.
TL;DR Aliens don't need recycle cause they are flooded with TRes and even if they weren't they have higher mobility which means they can respond to attacks on structures much more quickly than marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If marines have 7 TRes and 0 extractors, they can sell a building to make an extractor.
If aliens have 7 TRes and 0 extractors, they are all in: they have to win without making or spending any more res, because they can never get any more.
Is this acceptable to you? Why or why not? [5]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is an unacceptable edge case, however it exists for both teams. If a marine team has only a command station left, they too fall into this predicament. The only solution is to have the primary structure (command station, hive) create a relatively minuscule amount of resources. Maybe a quarter that of a harvester or extractor.
Until the game is more balanced in other aspects it's impossible to tell the discrepancy between the two systems, because Aliens will win all of the time regardless - Changing it at this point would only further makes Aliens crap all over Marines.
If you're losing Harvesters as Alien you're spreading yourself too thin or your aliens are bad.
This element of the game is so early on in the meta-game that now would be an appropriate time to address it, especially considering this is the Beta stage of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1937622:date=May 20 2012, 05:05 AM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 20 2012, 05:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937622"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Until the game is more balanced in other aspects it's impossible to tell the discrepancy between the two systems, because Aliens will win all of the time regardless - Changing it at this point would only further makes Aliens crap all over Marines.
If you're losing Harvesters as Alien you're spreading yourself too thin or your aliens are bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This element of the game is so early on in the meta-game that now would be an appropriate time to address it, especially considering this is the Beta stage of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I seriously have not seen it, I've only played 100-200 games - But, no I would not at all agree with your assessment towards Harvester loss.
208 has made it very easy to keep your Harvesters alive for a mildly competent team, I don't know what servers you play on. But, it doesn't happen on the servers I play on - I suppose it's plausible that I am <b>so good </b>it becomes impossible for Harvesters to die.
In my view Alien structures are Organic, Alien commander should be careful where he places things - I don't see the need to make the decision making for the Alien Commander <b>even easier</b>.
You might see it as a problem, but I've yet to meet anyone else who does.