<!--quoteo(post=1937604:date=May 20 2012, 04:17 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ May 20 2012, 04:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937604"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is an unacceptable edge case, however it exists for both teams. If a marine team has only a command station left, they too fall into this predicament. The only solution is to have the primary structure (command station, hive) create a relatively minuscule amount of resources. Maybe a quarter that of a harvester or extractor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it <i>doesn't</i> exist for both teams. If aliens had recycle, and they were down to "only a hive", they would be in the same spot as the marines in your example. In reality, they <i>don't</i> have recycle <b>and </b>both teams make buildings other than harvesters and hives. There isn't <i>one</i> unique solution, but it's so obvious that<i> giving aliens recycle</i> is one such solution that this thread is giving me brain cancer.
This idea of "townhall generates res" is unnecessary and exists because of an incorrect analysis of the recycling situation. Woops!
<!--quoteo(post=1937622:date=May 20 2012, 07:05 AM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 20 2012, 07:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937622"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you're losing Harvesters as Alien you're spreading yourself too thin or your aliens are bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
or they're strictly weaker than marine harvesters and easier to kill, and sometimes the marines can do that when they play well
<!--quoteo(post=1937679:date=May 20 2012, 11:48 AM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 20 2012, 11:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937679"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I suppose it's plausible that I am <b>so good </b>it becomes impossible for Harvesters to die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
or you and the people you play with are <b>so bad</b> that you're not witnessing anything close to a back-and-forth game where marines recycling RTs naturally pushes them ahead for free
<i>NAH BOTH OF THESE THINGS ARE IMPOSSIBLE WHO AM I KIDDING</i>
Number of games is not an indicator of quality of players or team. When a marine team is properly coordinated they can shut down alien harvesters repeatedly. In turn aliens can also. The difference is Marines retain more resources when they lose specifically extractors. Marines are more resilient to repeated loss of extractors than marines. It's a numbers game.
If marines recycle 3 harvesters early game, that's 21 resources that aliens would never have had. If aliens are down to one harvester, getting 10 resources, let alone 21 resources, takes a substantial amount of time, however marines don't need to worry about this because they already have most of the resources recovered to rebuild their extractor.
<!--quoteo(post=1937679:date=May 20 2012, 09:48 AM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 20 2012, 09:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937679"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I seriously have not seen it, I've only played 100-200 games - But, no I would not at all agree with your assessment towards Harvester loss.
208 has made it very easy to keep your Harvesters alive for a mildly competent team, I don't know what servers you play on. But, it doesn't happen on the servers I play on - I suppose it's plausible that I am <b>so good </b>it becomes impossible for Harvesters to die.
In my view Alien structures are Organic, Alien commander should be careful where he places things - I don't see the need to make the decision making for the Alien Commander <b>even easier</b>.
You might see it as a problem, but I've yet to meet anyone else who does.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1937680:date=May 20 2012, 07:52 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 20 2012, 07:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937680"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->or they're strictly weaker than marine harvesters and easier to kill, and sometimes the marines can do that when they play well
or you and the people you play with are <b>so bad</b> that you're not witnessing anything close to a back-and-forth game where marines recycling RTs naturally pushes them ahead for free
<i>NAH BOTH OF THESE THINGS ARE IMPOSSIBLE WHO AM I KIDDING</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't agree with the first point, but that's likely because your second argument is correct and I'm terribly bad at the game. At any rate, I'm glad you play in a different region because you would slaughter me to no end.
European ez mode for the win.
There's a few of you people who just seem to be insanely bias to making Aliens stronger when they are already winning 90% of the games. (100% for me, but everyone is bad where I play).
<!--quoteo(post=1937686:date=May 20 2012, 11:57 AM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 20 2012, 11:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's a few of you people who just seem to be insanely bias to making Aliens stronger when they are already winning 90% of the games. (100% for me, but everyone is bad where I play).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't want aliens strictly stronger, and I'm aware that they win too many games.
That doesn't mean I can't argue for aliens getting a recycle equivalent. When the game is in a better state performance-wise and marines stand a chance, aliens not having recycle will become a problem more often.
I've already seen the 'edge case' with aliens being checkmated on 0 harvesters in like 3 or 4 pub games. I think it would happen more often when marines can more effectively fight them to get the game to that state (all while recycling their own RTs to mitigate losses and power their attack ahead).
Do you honestly think that if we gave aliens recycle right now it would affect winrates in any significant way, or that players would even use it often?
<!--quoteo(post=1937683:date=May 20 2012, 07:55 AM:name=BloodyIron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BloodyIron @ May 20 2012, 07:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937683"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Number of games is not an indicator of quality of players or team. When a marine team is properly coordinated they can shut down alien harvesters repeatedly. In turn aliens can also. The difference is Marines retain more resources when they lose specifically extractors. Marines are more resilient to repeated loss of extractors than marines. It's a numbers game.
If marines recycle 3 harvesters early game, that's 21 resources that aliens would never have had. If aliens are down to one harvester, getting 10 resources, let alone 21 resources, takes a substantial amount of time, however marines don't need to worry about this because they already have most of the resources recovered to rebuild their extractor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally I don't think it's a problem, RT vs. RT the Extractor is superior - It builds faster and has more health. Fortunately there are a dozen other factors to take into account when you consider overall game balance.
<!--quoteo(post=1937687:date=May 20 2012, 08:02 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 20 2012, 08:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937687"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't want aliens strictly stronger, and I'm aware that they win too many games.
That doesn't mean I can't argue for aliens getting a recycle equivalent. When the game is in a better state performance-wise and marines stand a chance, aliens not having recycle will become a problem more often.
I've already seen the 'edge case' with aliens being checkmated on 0 harvesters in like 3 or 4 pub games. I think it would happen more often when marines can more effectively fight them to get the game to that state (all while recycling their own RTs to mitigate losses and power their attack ahead).
Do you honestly think that if we gave aliens recycle right now it would affect winrates in any significant way, or that players would even use it often?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think if you gave Aliens a viable way to save resource loss from Harvesters they would win more often yes, most the Alien losses are see are from constant RT sniping - If you can recycle this becomes far less of a big deal and you can comfortably cara/augment while recycling/getting your RT's back up at the same time.
<!--quoteo(post=1937690:date=May 20 2012, 12:04 PM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 20 2012, 12:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937690"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->most the Alien losses are see are from constant RT sniping<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Something that by all counts should only happen if the alien players are AFK or being severely outplayed, in which case losing 3 res instead of 10 on a harvester that never makes any money<b> is still putting them at a disadvantage </b> <!--quoteo(post=1937688:date=May 20 2012, 12:02 PM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 20 2012, 12:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937688"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally I don't think it's a problem, RT vs. RT the Extractor is superior - It builds faster and has more health. Fortunately there are a dozen other factors to take into account when you consider overall game balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What are those other factors? Explain to me how each of them are properly fitted to counterbalancing the asymmetric extractor/harvester designs. If nobody can do this, the asymmetric extractors are a mistake and need to be resolved.
Here, I'll start analysing it with this post:
<!--quoteo(post=1937595:date=May 20 2012, 03:34 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 20 2012, 03:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937595"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If marines have 7 TRes and 0 extractors, they can sell a building to make an extractor. If aliens have 7 TRes and 0 extractors, they are all in: they have to win without making or spending any more res, because they can never get any more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless you think that situation existing in the game is acceptable, the model behind the harvesters is wrong and needs to change.
You're right, you bring up a really valid point. Not only do marines retain more resources through extraction, but they also build their RTs faster, and are more durable. In terms of resource control Marines have a measurable advantage. Harvesters take a very substantial period before they become active, let alone mature, and there is no way to recover resources from a lost harvester.
<!--quoteo(post=1937688:date=May 20 2012, 10:02 AM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 20 2012, 10:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937688"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally I don't think it's a problem, RT vs. RT the Extractor is superior - It builds faster and has more health. Fortunately there are a dozen other factors to take into account when you consider overall game balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1937691:date=May 20 2012, 08:04 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 20 2012, 08:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937691"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What are those other factors? Explain to me how each of them are properly fitted to counterbalancing the asymmetric extractor/harvester designs. If nobody can do this, the asymmetric extractors are a mistake and need to be resolved.
Here, I'll start analysing it with this post:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Better Mobility Earlier Threat Detection
Are the simplest in terms of saving your RT's
So what? Aliens can lose a game if they get RT locked and have no Resources?
In what world does having 14-21 Res from recycling save an Alien team who can't even hold their main base RT from losing?
Do you really think a Marine team has EVER come back from having 0 RT's?
If anything the issue isn't that RT's can be recycled - But, that they can be nano-shielded.
<!--quoteo(post=1937691:date=May 20 2012, 08:04 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 20 2012, 08:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937691"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unless you think that situation existing in the game is acceptable, the model behind the harvesters is wrong and needs to change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It appears you edited your post, from what I wrote I obviously believe this is acceptable. Make the Alien RT free if you have none of them if it's such a big problem.
Are the simplest in terms of saving your RT's<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Explain these. I don't think aliens *really* have these any more than the marines do.
<!--quoteo(post=1937693:date=May 20 2012, 12:10 PM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 20 2012, 12:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So what? Aliens can lose a game if they get RT locked and have no Resources?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, and marines can't lose for that reason in any practical situation because of recycle.
<!--quoteo(post=1937693:date=May 20 2012, 12:10 PM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 20 2012, 12:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In what world does having 14-21 Res from recycling save an Alien team who can't even hold their main base RT from losing?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The one where both teams have been battered to a pulp and have 0 RTs. This has happened to me in 2 pub games so far, even in the game's unfinished and silly state. It will happen again (and probably already has).
<!--quoteo(post=1937693:date=May 20 2012, 12:10 PM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 20 2012, 12:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you really think a Marine team has EVER come back from having 0 RT's?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, we did it. Unfortunately my anecdote is worth about as much as your challenge, because the game didn't have a demo system when I did it.
<!--quoteo(post=1937693:date=May 20 2012, 12:10 PM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 20 2012, 12:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If anything the issue isn't that RT's can be recycled - But, that they can be nano-shielded.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now you're just changing the subject. Go back and answer the original simple statement that has nothing to do with nanoshield, please.
<!--quoteo(post=1937696:date=May 20 2012, 12:12 PM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 20 2012, 12:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937696"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Make the Alien RT free if you have none of them if it's such a big problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is this a better solution than giving aliens recycle? A free RT presents a lot of other imbalances. For instance, you would get to keep all your other buildings when recovering from 0 harvesters (while marines have to sacrifice something they built previously). Bad!
<!--quoteo(post=1937698:date=May 20 2012, 08:14 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 20 2012, 08:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937698"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Explain these. I don't think aliens *really* have these any more than the marines do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Better Threat Detection - Cysts see Marines coming before they get to the RT, or a Drifter will see them coming long before that. Marines will only see the Skulk once it has started attacking the RT. Better Mobility - All Alien lifeforms beyond Gorge are more mobile than Marines.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now you're just changing the subject. Go back and answer the original simple statement that has nothing to do with nanoshield, please.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quite wrong, he clearly made the statement that a RT can be nano-shielded then Recycled otherwise the RT is subject to dying before recycle finishes or the recycle refund will be lower. This is an integral part of the original argument..
You're statements are beginning to become ludicrous, tread carefully.
<!--quoteo(post=1937698:date=May 20 2012, 08:14 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 20 2012, 08:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937698"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How is this a better solution than giving aliens recycle? A free RT presents a lot of other imbalances. For instance, you would get to keep all your other buildings when recovering from 0 harvesters (while marines have to sacrifice something they built previously). Bad!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1937692:date=May 20 2012, 08:05 AM:name=BloodyIron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BloodyIron @ May 20 2012, 08:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937692"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're right, you bring up a really valid point. Not only do marines retain more resources through extraction, but they also build their RTs faster, and are more durable. In terms of resource control Marines have a measurable advantage. Harvesters take a very substantial period before they become active, let alone mature, and there is no way to recover resources from a lost harvester.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed and if they use nano-construct it's even faster - How does UWE let this discrepancy stand!!!
<!--quoteo(post=1937703:date=May 20 2012, 12:18 PM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 20 2012, 12:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937703"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Better Threat Detection - Cysts see Marines coming before they get to the RT, or a Drifter will see them coming long before that. Marines will only see the Skulk once it has started attacking the RT. Better Mobility - All Alien lifeforms beyond Gorge are more mobile than Marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless I'm mistaken, some of this changed in recent patches. But anyway, it's not all alien-sided in this case either. Marine players/structures see incoming threats naturally, and observatories (which only cost 10 res) allow you to scan anywhere when you want to see...or you can place them in cheeky corners to passively reveal things.
'Better mobility' is true, but I don't know if it's significant when you try to defend RTs on opposite sides of the map and that sort of thing. In that case, marines can easily defend one RT and recycle another (to mitigate the fact that your mobility allowed you to attack both). From the opposite point of view, aliens can try to defend both RTs but they never have the option of recycling one to focus on the other (and their manpower is split to defend both, which is bad for them just like it is for the marines).
The only thing that's clear is these new ideas (mobility, threat detection) are vastly overcomplicating our simple original idea (the 0 RT recycle situation). I don't see it getting us to a more useful answer.
<!--quoteo(post=1937703:date=May 20 2012, 12:18 PM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 20 2012, 12:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937703"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Quite wrong, he clearly made the statement that a RT can be nano-shielded then Recycled otherwise the RT is subject to dying before recycle finishes or the recycle refund will be lower<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He made that statement, but it's not quite true. I can recycle an RT without nanoshielding it easily. Aliens can never recycle an RT. Never ever ever.
<!--quoteo(post=1937708:date=May 20 2012, 08:23 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 20 2012, 08:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937708"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unless I'm mistaken, some of this changed in recent patches. But anyway, it's not all alien-sided in this case either. Marine players/structures see incoming threats naturally, and observatories (which only cost 10 res) allow you to scan anywhere when you want to see...or you can place them in cheeky corners to passively reveal things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From my own experience playing 208 cysts did reveal incoming Marines. Please don't try to argue that a 10 TRes Structure per RT is somehow comparable to a 5 Energy Cyst.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->'Better mobility' is true, but I don't know if it's significant when you try to defend RTs on opposite sides of the map and that sort of thing. In that case, marines can easily defend one RT and recycle another (to mitigate the fact that your mobility allowed you to attack both). From the opposite point of view, aliens can try to defend both RTs but they never have the option of recycling one to focus on the other (and their manpower is split to defend both, which is bad for them just like it is for the marines).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All I'm saying is that in general getting to your own RT faster to defend it and getting to an enemy RT faster to attack it should be (and has been) taken into account when designing each RT.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only thing that's clear is these new ideas (mobility, threat detection) are vastly overcomplicating our simple original idea (the 0 RT recycle situation). I don't see it getting us to a more useful answer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anyone who tries to use a extremely rare scenario to argue a feature that affects every other scenario is wasting their time. Until you accept how it impacts the big picture you can't in good conscience argue for any change.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He made that statement, but it's not quite true. I can recycle an RT without nanoshielding it easily. Aliens can never recycle an RT. Never ever ever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Without Nano-Shield you can't guarantee a fixed resource return or even guarantee that the Recycle will be quick enough to work. Are we looking at 7 resources per RT or 1-6 or none at all?
<!--quoteo(post=1937715:date=May 20 2012, 12:33 PM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 20 2012, 12:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937715"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyone who tries to use a extremely rare scenario to argue a feature that affects every other scenario is wasting their time. Until you accept how it impacts the big picture you can't in good conscience argue for any change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Explain to me how recycle affects every other scenario, then.
<!--quoteo(post=1937715:date=May 20 2012, 12:33 PM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 20 2012, 12:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937715"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Without Nano-Shield you can't guarantee a fixed resource return or even guarantee that the Recycle will be quick enough to work. Are we looking at 7 resources per RT or 1-6 or none at all?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm talking about <i>any</i>, since aliens have <i>none</i>.
<!--quoteo(post=1937718:date=May 20 2012, 08:36 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 20 2012, 08:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937718"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Explain to me how recycle affects every other scenario, then.
I'm talking about <i>any</i>, since aliens have <i>none</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I told you to tread carefully, unfortunately you haven't. Your statements have become too ludicrous for me to take your opinion seriously and I think I've voiced my opinion as well as I can.
A team doesn't have to lose all RTs for 14-21 res to be substantial. In the long run, recouping from early RT loss can add up in a compounding fashion. If you're down to 1 RT and you can rebuild a second right away because of recycling, this is measurably better than waiting while your 1 resource ticks away...
I don't know the exact period, but I believe it's 5 seconds per resource tick. Let's compare the two teams
Aliens, are down to 1 RT and have 0 resources. They had 3 RTs but 2 were destroyed before they could come online, thus losing all the invested resources.
It now takes them 50 econds to get enough res for the next RT. Your 2nd Harvester is now taking 1 minute to grow (assuming no gorges because they're busy defending the base as skulk). 50 Seconds into that minute you now have enough resources to build your third Harvester. You earn 2 more resources before your second harvester comes online, and now are earning 2 res a second and get your third harvester started in 20 seconds.
Let's recap. It was 50 seconds for 2nd Harvester to start building. It takes 50 seconds after that for you to start the 3rd harvester. By the time your 3rd harvester comes online you should have 26 resources, this process took 160 seconds (2 minutes 40 seconds). This is assuming you spend nothing on anything else during this whole period. It also assumes you lose no RTs during this whole period.
Marines are down to 1 RT, have have recouperated 14 resources from recycling (had 0 resources before recycling). They had 3 RTs but 2 were recycled due to loss of territory.
Marines start building a 2nd RT and with one marine it comes up in 20 seconds. Marines have earned 4 resources in this time, and now have a pool of 8. They wait 5 more seconds and start building the 3rd RT. It takes 20 seconds, and they now have a pool of 8 again. They now have 3 RTs and 120 seconds of 3 RT earnings. Once they reach the same 160s mark as Aliens (Marines have 120s) they will have a pool of 80 resources. This assumes no further RTs are lost, and nothing is spent on anything else.
So, Aliens end up with 26 resources, and Marines end up with 80 resources in the identical scenario. Is this clear enough to you that there is a difference?
Commanded some games today as alien, no hive sight on cysts makes resource towers REALLY vulnerable. I remember dropping some and a marine was hiding right next to it and I had no idea, so it died 3 seconds later.
With no players required to build an RT (like with marines), they have no protection, so you really need to tell players to guard them while they build, but even then you have no way to protect them (nano shield) or recycle when they get attacked, so if nobody is in range that's it, they're gone. it sucks.
It's 8 seconds per tick for the gather rate. This means that if an RT stays up for 1 minute 20 seconds it is profitable (because of the PRes gained) and the TRes is even. If you recycle an RT, assuming you recycle above 90% health, you can have an RT for about half a minute and still come even. Hope that cleared things up for anyone who was unsure.
Anyways you need to build drifters as alien comm now. You can also place whips or something near RTs to defend them if you have the res. The main point of alien RTs is to gather PRes, not TRes so you can afford to waste some on whips or crags.
I also find it amusing how those of you arguing for giving aliens some recycle function keep making these dire, end all situations that rarely actually occur. You keep referencing a res lock situation. Fact is that it's the team's fault for getting res locked not because OMG ALIENS DONT HAVE RECYCLE MARINES OP HOW CAN ALIENS EVER MANAGE TO GET 65 TRES FOR AUGMENT AND CARA. I don't think you're ever even considering either that recycling factors in the amount of health a structure has left either (75%structure cost*health/maxhealth).
Also to calrify: Cysts don't reveal marines unless they attack the cysts.
why shouldn't marines be able to get res locked like aliens? is it not their fault if it happens to them? if marines lose all their RTs and have <10 res, they can recycle something in their base to get a res tower, aliens can't do anything but wait to die, why is that fair?
<!--quoteo(post=1937752:date=May 20 2012, 12:48 PM:name=paradoxum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (paradoxum @ May 20 2012, 12:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937752"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why shouldn't marines be able to get res locked like aliens? is it not their fault if it happens to them? if marines lose all their RTs and have <10 res, they can recycle something in their base to get a res tower, aliens can't do anything but wait to die, why is that fair?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Aliens can't phase around the map with phase gates why is that fair? Marines can't jump everywhere like a skulk why is that fair? Aliens don't need their players to build why is that fair? Marines can't get PRes free active abilities why is that fair?
Your logic is flawed. Just because one side can do something in one situation doesn't mean the other side should be able to. Also, if there's nothing left in the marine base you can't exactly recycle anything. Aliens don't even build anything other than RTs to recycle, so I still don't see any point you're making here. If you're SO concerned that getting res locked is SO broken why don't you propose just making hives generate small amounts of TRes. I still don't see why you're making this enormous fuss over something no one ever has talked about before and won't talk about after. It's never been game-breaking, it isn't now, and it's probably not going to ever be.
You seem to be whining about getting res locked more than anything, also. Getting res locked is not a common occurrence and is defended against pretty easily by just actually defending RTs rather than rapidly expanding across the map. And if you lose all your RTs you're probably going to lose, again everyone arguing for giving aliens recycle continuously ignores this fact. If you're so down on res that you actually would get res locked if you didn't recycle something as marine then you've probably <b>lost</b>.
<!--quoteo(post=1937758:date=May 20 2012, 01:08 PM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ May 20 2012, 01:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937758"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your logic is flawed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh, no, YOUR logic is flawed. You are comparing fundamental differences between two distinct teams and core gameplay mechanics which need to be BALANCED.
And I made 1 single post about the 'res locked' situation, so why are you saying things like "If you're SO concerned that getting res locked is SO broken why don't you propose just making hives generate small amounts of TRes." and "You seem to be whining about getting res locked more than anything"? are you confusing me with somebody else?
Can you not have a discussion on an internet forum without resorting to calling people whiners when they bring up something you don't agree with?
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1937758:date=May 20 2012, 02:08 PM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ May 20 2012, 02:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937758"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens can't phase around the map with phase gates why is that fair? Marines can't jump everywhere like a skulk why is that fair? Aliens don't need their players to build why is that fair? Marines can't get PRes free active abilities why is that fair?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont have anything to contribute here other than a correction, so i apologize in advance:
<ul><li>Aliens will have shift to a)go faster b) teleport around the map</li><li>Marines can jp easily, not to mention the gorge/fade/onos cant even jump around either?</li><li>Aliens are severely hurt in progress if they do not have assistance in building with a gorge - and this trend will continue.</li><li>I take it you mean abilities to = weapons? Well obviously they have rifles to begin with, but i believe you are referring to tech upgrades, be it life forms or GLs. In this case: it costs tres and pres for marines but only tres for aliens, so aliens are in need of a Pres sink and something is already in the works. :)</li></ul>
I like how I provide clear and concise calculations about the differences between recycling and not, and it's barely even disputed. Btw I timed it, a res tick is 6 seconds, not 5. So my numbers are not that off.
<!--quoteo(post=1937774:date=May 20 2012, 06:25 PM:name=BloodyIron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BloodyIron @ May 20 2012, 06:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937774"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like how I provide clear and concise calculations about the differences between recycling and not, and it's barely even disputed. Btw I timed it, a res tick is 6 seconds, not 5. So my numbers are not that off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, it's hard to dispute raw numbers. It's easy to look at something like "one team can get reslocked and the other can't", put in some ear plugs and go NO IT'S ASYMMETRICAL YOU JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND
This was something that got talked about back in early NS1 as well, though the lack of a khammander hampered any real discussion then (having to trust one guy not to grief and recycle everything when they think the game is lost is bad enough, but to allow anyone on the team to go gorge and do the same...).
I'm not sure <i>how much</i> of an impact it has though. Ultimately it sounds like a valid concern, but it'll be on the TO-DO pile under a hundred other things.
I'm okay with it being addressed some time. This is just something that struck me the other day. Isn't it part of beta testing to bring such things to the attention of the devs? :P
I'm just trying to contribute.
<!--quoteo(post=1937794:date=May 20 2012, 05:19 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ May 20 2012, 05:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937794"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This was something that got talked about back in early NS1 as well, though the lack of a khammander hampered any real discussion then (having to trust one guy not to grief and recycle everything when they think the game is lost is bad enough, but to allow anyone on the team to go gorge and do the same...).
I'm not sure <i>how much</i> of an impact it has though. Ultimately it sounds like a valid concern, but it'll be on the TO-DO pile under a hundred other things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1937777:date=May 20 2012, 03:28 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 20 2012, 03:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937777"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, it's hard to dispute raw numbers. It's easy to look at something like "one team can get reslocked and the other can't",<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, moving cysts to energy instead of tres helped the biggest problem we saw with this. Now, considering you only will ever need 10 tres to get out of being reslocked, it's less of a concern. Marines have a lot of weak points in their own base (power nodes, observatories), so it's the khammander's job to make sure he doesn't overspend when getting locked down.
Comments
No, it <i>doesn't</i> exist for both teams. If aliens had recycle, and they were down to "only a hive", they would be in the same spot as the marines in your example. In reality, they <i>don't</i> have recycle <b>and </b>both teams make buildings other than harvesters and hives. There isn't <i>one</i> unique solution, but it's so obvious that<i> giving aliens recycle</i> is one such solution that this thread is giving me brain cancer.
This idea of "townhall generates res" is unnecessary and exists because of an incorrect analysis of the recycling situation. Woops!
<!--quoteo(post=1937622:date=May 20 2012, 07:05 AM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 20 2012, 07:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937622"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you're losing Harvesters as Alien you're spreading yourself too thin or your aliens are bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
or they're strictly weaker than marine harvesters and easier to kill, and sometimes the marines can do that when they play well
<!--quoteo(post=1937679:date=May 20 2012, 11:48 AM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 20 2012, 11:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937679"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I suppose it's plausible that I am <b>so good </b>it becomes impossible for Harvesters to die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
or you and the people you play with are <b>so bad</b> that you're not witnessing anything close to a back-and-forth game where marines recycling RTs naturally pushes them ahead for free
<i>NAH BOTH OF THESE THINGS ARE IMPOSSIBLE WHO AM I KIDDING</i>
If marines recycle 3 harvesters early game, that's 21 resources that aliens would never have had. If aliens are down to one harvester, getting 10 resources, let alone 21 resources, takes a substantial amount of time, however marines don't need to worry about this because they already have most of the resources recovered to rebuild their extractor.
<!--quoteo(post=1937679:date=May 20 2012, 09:48 AM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 20 2012, 09:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937679"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I seriously have not seen it, I've only played 100-200 games - But, no I would not at all agree with your assessment towards Harvester loss.
208 has made it very easy to keep your Harvesters alive for a mildly competent team, I don't know what servers you play on. But, it doesn't happen on the servers I play on - I suppose it's plausible that I am <b>so good </b>it becomes impossible for Harvesters to die.
In my view Alien structures are Organic, Alien commander should be careful where he places things - I don't see the need to make the decision making for the Alien Commander <b>even easier</b>.
You might see it as a problem, but I've yet to meet anyone else who does.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
or you and the people you play with are <b>so bad</b> that you're not witnessing anything close to a back-and-forth game where marines recycling RTs naturally pushes them ahead for free
<i>NAH BOTH OF THESE THINGS ARE IMPOSSIBLE WHO AM I KIDDING</i><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't agree with the first point, but that's likely because your second argument is correct and I'm terribly bad at the game. At any rate, I'm glad you play in a different region because you would slaughter me to no end.
European ez mode for the win.
There's a few of you people who just seem to be insanely bias to making Aliens stronger when they are already winning 90% of the games. (100% for me, but everyone is bad where I play).
I don't want aliens strictly stronger, and I'm aware that they win too many games.
That doesn't mean I can't argue for aliens getting a recycle equivalent. When the game is in a better state performance-wise and marines stand a chance, aliens not having recycle will become a problem more often.
I've already seen the 'edge case' with aliens being checkmated on 0 harvesters in like 3 or 4 pub games. I think it would happen more often when marines can more effectively fight them to get the game to that state (all while recycling their own RTs to mitigate losses and power their attack ahead).
Do you honestly think that if we gave aliens recycle right now it would affect winrates in any significant way, or that players would even use it often?
If marines recycle 3 harvesters early game, that's 21 resources that aliens would never have had. If aliens are down to one harvester, getting 10 resources, let alone 21 resources, takes a substantial amount of time, however marines don't need to worry about this because they already have most of the resources recovered to rebuild their extractor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally I don't think it's a problem, RT vs. RT the Extractor is superior - It builds faster and has more health. Fortunately there are a dozen other factors to take into account when you consider overall game balance.
That doesn't mean I can't argue for aliens getting a recycle equivalent. When the game is in a better state performance-wise and marines stand a chance, aliens not having recycle will become a problem more often.
I've already seen the 'edge case' with aliens being checkmated on 0 harvesters in like 3 or 4 pub games. I think it would happen more often when marines can more effectively fight them to get the game to that state (all while recycling their own RTs to mitigate losses and power their attack ahead).
Do you honestly think that if we gave aliens recycle right now it would affect winrates in any significant way, or that players would even use it often?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think if you gave Aliens a viable way to save resource loss from Harvesters they would win more often yes, most the Alien losses are see are from constant RT sniping - If you can recycle this becomes far less of a big deal and you can comfortably cara/augment while recycling/getting your RT's back up at the same time.
Something that by all counts should only happen if the alien players are AFK or being severely outplayed, in which case losing 3 res instead of 10 on a harvester that never makes any money<b> is still putting them at a disadvantage
</b>
<!--quoteo(post=1937688:date=May 20 2012, 12:02 PM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 20 2012, 12:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937688"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally I don't think it's a problem, RT vs. RT the Extractor is superior - It builds faster and has more health. Fortunately there are a dozen other factors to take into account when you consider overall game balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What are those other factors? Explain to me how each of them are properly fitted to counterbalancing the asymmetric extractor/harvester designs.
If nobody can do this, the asymmetric extractors are a mistake and need to be resolved.
Here, I'll start analysing it with this post:
<!--quoteo(post=1937595:date=May 20 2012, 03:34 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 20 2012, 03:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937595"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If marines have 7 TRes and 0 extractors, they can sell a building to make an extractor.
If aliens have 7 TRes and 0 extractors, they are all in: they have to win without making or spending any more res, because they can never get any more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless you think that situation existing in the game is acceptable, the model behind the harvesters is wrong and needs to change.
<!--quoteo(post=1937688:date=May 20 2012, 10:02 AM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 20 2012, 10:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937688"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally I don't think it's a problem, RT vs. RT the Extractor is superior - It builds faster and has more health. Fortunately there are a dozen other factors to take into account when you consider overall game balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If nobody can do this, the asymmetric extractors are a mistake and need to be resolved.
Here, I'll start analysing it with this post:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Better Mobility
Earlier Threat Detection
Are the simplest in terms of saving your RT's
So what? Aliens can lose a game if they get RT locked and have no Resources?
In what world does having 14-21 Res from recycling save an Alien team who can't even hold their main base RT from losing?
Do you really think a Marine team has EVER come back from having 0 RT's?
If anything the issue isn't that RT's can be recycled - But, that they can be nano-shielded.
It appears you edited your post, from what I wrote I obviously believe this is acceptable. Make the Alien RT free if you have none of them if it's such a big problem.
Earlier Threat Detection
Are the simplest in terms of saving your RT's<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Explain these. I don't think aliens *really* have these any more than the marines do.
<!--quoteo(post=1937693:date=May 20 2012, 12:10 PM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 20 2012, 12:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So what? Aliens can lose a game if they get RT locked and have no Resources?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, and marines can't lose for that reason in any practical situation because of recycle.
<!--quoteo(post=1937693:date=May 20 2012, 12:10 PM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 20 2012, 12:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In what world does having 14-21 Res from recycling save an Alien team who can't even hold their main base RT from losing?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The one where both teams have been battered to a pulp and have 0 RTs. This has happened to me in 2 pub games so far, even in the game's unfinished and silly state. It will happen again (and probably already has).
<!--quoteo(post=1937693:date=May 20 2012, 12:10 PM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 20 2012, 12:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you really think a Marine team has EVER come back from having 0 RT's?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, we did it. Unfortunately my anecdote is worth about as much as your challenge, because the game didn't have a demo system when I did it.
<!--quoteo(post=1937693:date=May 20 2012, 12:10 PM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 20 2012, 12:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If anything the issue isn't that RT's can be recycled - But, that they can be nano-shielded.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now you're just changing the subject. Go back and answer the original simple statement that has nothing to do with nanoshield, please.
<!--quoteo(post=1937696:date=May 20 2012, 12:12 PM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 20 2012, 12:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937696"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Make the Alien RT free if you have none of them if it's such a big problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is this a better solution than giving aliens recycle? A free RT presents a lot of other imbalances. For instance, you would get to keep all your other buildings when recovering from 0 harvesters (while marines have to sacrifice something they built previously). Bad!
Better Threat Detection - Cysts see Marines coming before they get to the RT, or a Drifter will see them coming long before that. Marines will only see the Skulk once it has started attacking the RT.
Better Mobility - All Alien lifeforms beyond Gorge are more mobile than Marines.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now you're just changing the subject. Go back and answer the original simple statement that has nothing to do with nanoshield, please.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quite wrong, he clearly made the statement that a RT can be nano-shielded then Recycled otherwise the RT is subject to dying before recycle finishes or the recycle refund will be lower. This is an integral part of the original argument..
You're statements are beginning to become ludicrous, tread carefully.
For all other scenarios Recycle is superior.
Indeed and if they use nano-construct it's even faster - How does UWE let this discrepancy stand!!!
Equal Rights for all Races!!!
Better Mobility - All Alien lifeforms beyond Gorge are more mobile than Marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless I'm mistaken, some of this changed in recent patches. But anyway, it's not all alien-sided in this case either. Marine players/structures see incoming threats naturally, and observatories (which only cost 10 res) allow you to scan anywhere when you want to see...or you can place them in cheeky corners to passively reveal things.
'Better mobility' is true, but I don't know if it's significant when you try to defend RTs on opposite sides of the map and that sort of thing. In that case, marines can easily defend one RT and recycle another (to mitigate the fact that your mobility allowed you to attack both). From the opposite point of view, aliens can try to defend both RTs but they never have the option of recycling one to focus on the other (and their manpower is split to defend both, which is bad for them just like it is for the marines).
The only thing that's clear is these new ideas (mobility, threat detection) are vastly overcomplicating our simple original idea (the 0 RT recycle situation). I don't see it getting us to a more useful answer.
<!--quoteo(post=1937703:date=May 20 2012, 12:18 PM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 20 2012, 12:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937703"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Quite wrong, he clearly made the statement that a RT can be nano-shielded then Recycled otherwise the RT is subject to dying before recycle finishes or the recycle refund will be lower<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He made that statement, but it's not quite true. I can recycle an RT without nanoshielding it easily. Aliens can never recycle an RT. Never ever ever.
From my own experience playing 208 cysts did reveal incoming Marines. Please don't try to argue that a 10 TRes Structure per RT is somehow comparable to a 5 Energy Cyst.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->'Better mobility' is true, but I don't know if it's significant when you try to defend RTs on opposite sides of the map and that sort of thing. In that case, marines can easily defend one RT and recycle another (to mitigate the fact that your mobility allowed you to attack both). From the opposite point of view, aliens can try to defend both RTs but they never have the option of recycling one to focus on the other (and their manpower is split to defend both, which is bad for them just like it is for the marines).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All I'm saying is that in general getting to your own RT faster to defend it and getting to an enemy RT faster to attack it should be (and has been) taken into account when designing each RT.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only thing that's clear is these new ideas (mobility, threat detection) are vastly overcomplicating our simple original idea (the 0 RT recycle situation). I don't see it getting us to a more useful answer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anyone who tries to use a extremely rare scenario to argue a feature that affects every other scenario is wasting their time. Until you accept how it impacts the big picture you can't in good conscience argue for any change.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He made that statement, but it's not quite true. I can recycle an RT without nanoshielding it easily. Aliens can never recycle an RT. Never ever ever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Without Nano-Shield you can't guarantee a fixed resource return or even guarantee that the Recycle will be quick enough to work. Are we looking at 7 resources per RT or 1-6 or none at all?
Explain to me how recycle affects every other scenario, then.
<!--quoteo(post=1937715:date=May 20 2012, 12:33 PM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 20 2012, 12:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937715"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Without Nano-Shield you can't guarantee a fixed resource return or even guarantee that the Recycle will be quick enough to work. Are we looking at 7 resources per RT or 1-6 or none at all?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm talking about <i>any</i>, since aliens have <i>none</i>.
I'm talking about <i>any</i>, since aliens have <i>none</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I told you to tread carefully, unfortunately you haven't. Your statements have become too ludicrous for me to take your opinion seriously and I think I've voiced my opinion as well as I can.
Have a nice day.
I don't know the exact period, but I believe it's 5 seconds per resource tick. Let's compare the two teams
Aliens, are down to 1 RT and have 0 resources. They had 3 RTs but 2 were destroyed before they could come online, thus losing all the invested resources.
It now takes them 50 econds to get enough res for the next RT. Your 2nd Harvester is now taking 1 minute to grow (assuming no gorges because they're busy defending the base as skulk). 50 Seconds into that minute you now have enough resources to build your third Harvester. You earn 2 more resources before your second harvester comes online, and now are earning 2 res a second and get your third harvester started in 20 seconds.
Let's recap. It was 50 seconds for 2nd Harvester to start building. It takes 50 seconds after that for you to start the 3rd harvester. By the time your 3rd harvester comes online you should have 26 resources, this process took 160 seconds (2 minutes 40 seconds). This is assuming you spend nothing on anything else during this whole period. It also assumes you lose no RTs during this whole period.
Marines are down to 1 RT, have have recouperated 14 resources from recycling (had 0 resources before recycling). They had 3 RTs but 2 were recycled due to loss of territory.
Marines start building a 2nd RT and with one marine it comes up in 20 seconds. Marines have earned 4 resources in this time, and now have a pool of 8. They wait 5 more seconds and start building the 3rd RT. It takes 20 seconds, and they now have a pool of 8 again. They now have 3 RTs and 120 seconds of 3 RT earnings. Once they reach the same 160s mark as Aliens (Marines have 120s) they will have a pool of 80 resources. This assumes no further RTs are lost, and nothing is spent on anything else.
So, Aliens end up with 26 resources, and Marines end up with 80 resources in the identical scenario. Is this clear enough to you that there is a difference?
With no players required to build an RT (like with marines), they have no protection, so you really need to tell players to guard them while they build, but even then you have no way to protect them (nano shield) or recycle when they get attacked, so if nobody is in range that's it, they're gone. it sucks.
Anyways you need to build drifters as alien comm now. You can also place whips or something near RTs to defend them if you have the res. The main point of alien RTs is to gather PRes, not TRes so you can afford to waste some on whips or crags.
I also find it amusing how those of you arguing for giving aliens some recycle function keep making these dire, end all situations that rarely actually occur. You keep referencing a res lock situation. Fact is that it's the team's fault for getting res locked not because OMG ALIENS DONT HAVE RECYCLE MARINES OP HOW CAN ALIENS EVER MANAGE TO GET 65 TRES FOR AUGMENT AND CARA. I don't think you're ever even considering either that recycling factors in the amount of health a structure has left either (75%structure cost*health/maxhealth).
Also to calrify: Cysts don't reveal marines unless they attack the cysts.
Aliens can't phase around the map with phase gates why is that fair?
Marines can't jump everywhere like a skulk why is that fair?
Aliens don't need their players to build why is that fair?
Marines can't get PRes free active abilities why is that fair?
Your logic is flawed. Just because one side can do something in one situation doesn't mean the other side should be able to. Also, if there's nothing left in the marine base you can't exactly recycle anything. Aliens don't even build anything other than RTs to recycle, so I still don't see any point you're making here. If you're SO concerned that getting res locked is SO broken why don't you propose just making hives generate small amounts of TRes. I still don't see why you're making this enormous fuss over something no one ever has talked about before and won't talk about after. It's never been game-breaking, it isn't now, and it's probably not going to ever be.
You seem to be whining about getting res locked more than anything, also. Getting res locked is not a common occurrence and is defended against pretty easily by just actually defending RTs rather than rapidly expanding across the map. And if you lose all your RTs you're probably going to lose, again everyone arguing for giving aliens recycle continuously ignores this fact. If you're so down on res that you actually would get res locked if you didn't recycle something as marine then you've probably <b>lost</b>.
Uh, no, YOUR logic is flawed. You are comparing fundamental differences between two distinct teams and core gameplay mechanics which need to be BALANCED.
And I made 1 single post about the 'res locked' situation, so why are you saying things like "If you're SO concerned that getting res locked is SO broken why don't you propose just making hives generate small amounts of TRes." and "You seem to be whining about getting res locked more than anything"? are you confusing me with somebody else?
Can you not have a discussion on an internet forum without resorting to calling people whiners when they bring up something you don't agree with?
Marines can't jump everywhere like a skulk why is that fair?
Aliens don't need their players to build why is that fair?
Marines can't get PRes free active abilities why is that fair?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont have anything to contribute here other than a correction, so i apologize in advance:
<ul><li>Aliens will have shift to a)go faster b) teleport around the map</li><li>Marines can jp easily, not to mention the gorge/fade/onos cant even jump around either?</li><li>Aliens are severely hurt in progress if they do not have assistance in building with a gorge - and this trend will continue.</li><li>I take it you mean abilities to = weapons? Well obviously they have rifles to begin with, but i believe you are referring to tech upgrades, be it life forms or GLs. In this case: it costs tres and pres for marines but only tres for aliens, so aliens are in need of a Pres sink and something is already in the works. :)</li></ul>
Continue..
Yeah, it's hard to dispute raw numbers. It's easy to look at something like "one team can get reslocked and the other can't", put in some ear plugs and go NO IT'S ASYMMETRICAL YOU JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND
I'm not sure <i>how much</i> of an impact it has though. Ultimately it sounds like a valid concern, but it'll be on the TO-DO pile under a hundred other things.
I'm just trying to contribute.
<!--quoteo(post=1937794:date=May 20 2012, 05:19 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ May 20 2012, 05:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1937794"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This was something that got talked about back in early NS1 as well, though the lack of a khammander hampered any real discussion then (having to trust one guy not to grief and recycle everything when they think the game is lost is bad enough, but to allow anyone on the team to go gorge and do the same...).
I'm not sure <i>how much</i> of an impact it has though. Ultimately it sounds like a valid concern, but it'll be on the TO-DO pile under a hundred other things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, moving cysts to energy instead of tres helped the biggest problem we saw with this. Now, considering you only will ever need 10 tres to get out of being reslocked, it's less of a concern. Marines have a lot of weak points in their own base (power nodes, observatories), so it's the khammander's job to make sure he doesn't overspend when getting locked down.