<!--quoteo(post=1939778:date=May 29 2012, 08:45 AM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ May 29 2012, 08:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939778"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From experience I think most players that keep whining or bringing their team down are players that think they are better than they are. Most of them are not at a competitive level or even competitive material.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Elitist view, anyone can play at a competitive level with enough determination/practice.
Not everyone has the time.
With opinions like this you're worse than the whiners.
<!--quoteo(post=1939782:date=May 29 2012, 10:50 AM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 29 2012, 10:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939782"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Elitist view, anyone can play at a competitive level with enough determination/practice.
Not everyone has the time.
With opinions like this you're worse than the whiners.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> He said the player vs player whiners are usually the ones lacking in 'competitive-play material' and never said a player can't achieve that level with practice and determination. So your... argument is flawed.
<!--quoteo(post=1939782:date=May 29 2012, 12:50 PM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 29 2012, 12:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939782"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Elitist view, anyone can play at a competitive level with enough determination/practice.
Not everyone has the time.
With opinions like this you're worse than the whiners.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Please note I wrote from my experience and most of these players. That does not mean everyone.
The problem I see with most of these kind of players are they are unable to take criticism to improve their play. They also tend to focus to much on the their own play to see the bigger picture. Meaning its usually blame someone else if they do a mistake. This can be devastating for the team morale making them bad players. Again not everyone.
Sure they can always be good players with practice but attitude is just as important in high level competitive play. But I don't want this to go out of topic, we are talking about public play here.
<!--quoteo(post=1939772:date=May 29 2012, 12:33 PM:name=BVKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BVKnight @ May 29 2012, 12:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939772"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Why does it sound like</b> everyone who is in a clan believes that clan games are the only correct way to play the game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
because pubbers are afraid of comp players in every community and pretend to be persecuted to make themselves feel better about it (which indicates just how <i>casual </i>they really are)
<!--quoteo(post=1939863:date=May 29 2012, 06:44 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 29 2012, 06:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939863"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->because pubbers are afraid of comp players in every community and pretend to be persecuted to make themselves feel better about it (which indicates just how <i>casual </i>they really are)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The reality of the situation is that you have derived this gross and inaccurate sense of superiority because you play the game in more structured settings than <i>most</i> of the people who play the game. You believe you are in an elite minority. You are certainly in a minority, and you may very well play the game with more skill than most of the other players who will play the game. None of this really has any bearing on anything outside of the individual games, seasons, and leagues that you play in. That world is an entirely separate idea from the basics of gaming.
<!--quoteo(post=1939873:date=May 29 2012, 07:00 PM:name=World Construct)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (World Construct @ May 29 2012, 07:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939873"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reality of the situation is that you have derived this gross and inaccurate sense of superiority because you play the game in more structured settings than <i>most</i> of the people who play the game. You believe you are in an elite minority. You are certainly in a minority, and you may very well play the game with more skill than most of the other players who will play the game. None of this really has any bearing on anything outside of the individual games, seasons, and leagues that you play in. That world is an entirely separate idea from the basics of gaming.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't play NS2 competitively. I only play it in pubs.
<!--quoteo(post=1939874:date=May 29 2012, 07:04 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 29 2012, 07:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939874"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't play NS2 competitively. I only play it in pubs.
Your move.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Address my argument where "the game" means Team Fortress 2.
<!--quoteo(post=1939881:date=May 29 2012, 07:18 PM:name=World Construct)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (World Construct @ May 29 2012, 07:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939881"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Address my argument where "the game" means Team Fortress 2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I used to play TF2 competitively (for a small fraction of the time I spent pubbing in it) and observed during my time in it that pubbers are deathly afraid of competitive players, and don't try to understand competitive gaming at all. All these same arguments came and went, like they do in basically every game community, but the source is always pub players who need to feel special by tearing down people who are better than them (which they naturally fail at, causing them to look silly).
<!--quoteo(post=1939884:date=May 29 2012, 07:21 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 29 2012, 07:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939884"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All these same arguments came and went, like they do in basically every game community, but the source is always pub players who need to feel special by tearing down people who are better than them (which they naturally fail at, causing them to look silly).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good lord. You are not better than other people.
<!--quoteo(post=1939889:date=May 29 2012, 07:35 PM:name=World Construct)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (World Construct @ May 29 2012, 07:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939889"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good lord. You are not better than other people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here: have a cookie <img src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ZNEhexzUGQQ/RvylVLPXfGI/AAAAAAAAAcE/RXuzHTozj-U/s400/cookie_heart_Valentine_240760_l.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> (the cookie is shaped like a heart)
<!--quoteo(post=1939891:date=May 30 2012, 01:37 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 30 2012, 01:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939891"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Didn't say I was (but I am).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh look, internetexplorer running amok with a flamethrower in yet another thread, how new and refreshing.
Silly argument is silly, competitive players were once pubbers and pubbers maybe once competitive. <b> On-topic:</b> Nooooo...! ;_; I'm guilty I confess! Sometimes, after a row of "professional" games, some newbie jumps into the chair and starts building turrets and you go like "aarghh...". But then I just remind myself that it's still a beta. :p Usually just reminding people it's a beta shuts whiners up. =^_^= But tbh I don't really see a whole lot of new players in EU. >_>
Edit: *is splitting heart cookies, eating halves and gluing halves together, muttering about a perfect crime*
In my experience the jerks seem to be mostly US players, as I rarely ever encounter anyone like that playing EU servers all day like HBZ servers, but then when it's night time and all the EU servers go empty and I still want to play, i'll join a US one and most of the time there's some loudmouth on voice talking ###### the whole game. gives me a headache.
I haven't really done much of Com in NS2 except for way earlier in the beta where people gave me tips (but that was a long time ago). I guess part of me still expects to be ejected because whenever I would play NS1 I would be ejected from the comm seat all the time, so it was very hard for me to ever get the chance to comm. For some reason I haven't had much desire to comm since I stopped trying to get in the chair back in NS1
Sacrificing a pub game win to help a newbie commander learn is one of the most honourable things a player can do.
If I could, I would pin a Squad 5 badge on every player I find helping newbie commanders. There is simply nothing more beneficial to the future health of the NS2 community than helping new players learn.
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
Getting flamed and kicked out of the comm chair is not only a problem for the new players. It's also a problem for experienced and competitive players. Atleast I have very hard time enjoying commanding on a public because many players want you to go for the strategies and build orders often seen in public. If you try to think out of the box, use innovative strategies or even use strategies similar to the ones used in competitive matches you will get flamed and eventually kicked out of the chair.
I have had so many games where i've told my team to build only 2 rts (3 total) and then put pressure on the alien harvesters because that gives you the most amount of res to use for tech before the fades come out assuming that you can kill couple of harvesters and don't lose any of your own (which is not difficult because you don't have to defend too many points and can focus solely on attacking). We have used this strategy in many competitive matches with success but in public it always fails because people start flaming and votekicking in the moment they realize that i'm not dropping more rts.
Incidents like these have killed all the motivation for public commanding for me.
I think a good matchmaking + some kind of elo system would help a lot...(ofc in addition to youtube videos, and livestreaming of competitive or higher elo guys) making ppl understand game mechanics better an quicker, since you give them a goal to work for and a lot of material to learn from...
At least i felt like it helped a lot in other games, and made the pub community advance faster.
A matchmaking and Elo system always helps a competitive community bloom, but it requires a serious overhaul of the way servers are handled, as well as UWE having to put up a big server to host those games on. I'm not sure they can keep that kind of thing going without a subscription fee, which nobody wants.
Just last night I had someone flame me for not doing things just the way he/she wanted. Really killed my interest in the round and the next after that. On the bright side though, some pub crowds are much better, and after you've commed succesfully a round, you usually get a bit more leeway. Like, you can get the team to not whine when you don't drop any RTs and pull a jet-rush at the 4min mark ;)
I really wish that a comprehensive tutorial was planned for 1.0 release - a good one with scripted events etc. It is more important for NS2 than it is for most games because it's only online and it's far more complicated than most games. Independent tutorials on specifics isn't really adequate enough, in my opinion. If UWE don't want to, perhaps a squad5 gold being waved in front of someone's nose could provide some incentive. Whatever it takes, to be honest.
UlmontJoin Date: 2011-10-02Member: 125211Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
I haven't seen too much flaming against the newbies, and the flamers I have come across usually get immediately shouted down by the majority of the team. I've been in a maximum of ten or so matches where the Kham (non-newb) has been hated on by the team, but usually this was because he/she did something incredibly retarded and was deserving of said hate. By retarded, I don't mean they tried out a new strategies, or were just going for fun, I mean they did something <i>retarded</i>. Examples here include entering Kham seat and going AFK, not supporting the team whatsoever, or recycling all structures without the team's consent. I was playing on one server where the Kham was being extremely lackluster (no upgrades or structures for a VERY long time), and was catching hate from the team when he pointed out that he was new to Khaming, at which point the hate evaporated, and the team started to give him pointers. Regardless, I would love to see a sort function that grouped servers into relaxed, serious, and competitive play respectively.
<!--quoteo(post=1939902:date=May 29 2012, 07:10 PM:name=Bicsum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bicsum @ May 29 2012, 07:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939902"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Come on guys, be nice!
Here: have a cookie <img src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ZNEhexzUGQQ/RvylVLPXfGI/AAAAAAAAAcE/RXuzHTozj-U/s400/cookie_heart_Valentine_240760_l.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> (the cookie is shaped like a heart)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1940013:date=May 30 2012, 07:26 AM:name=Ulmont)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ulmont @ May 30 2012, 07:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I second this measure. Cookies for everyone.
<!--quoteo(post=1940057:date=May 30 2012, 05:57 PM:name=PowerfuryOA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PowerfuryOA @ May 30 2012, 05:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940057"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I contest this motion, only cookies for me!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<strike>This made me think of the need for a comm tutorial. A few scripted bots running around doing stuff, some tasks that need to be done, maybe a voice telling you what to do and why.</strike>
EDIT: Maybe I should read before posting...
<!--quoteo(post=1940010:date=May 30 2012, 02:20 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ May 30 2012, 02:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940010"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really wish that a comprehensive tutorial was planned for 1.0 release - a good one with scripted events etc. It is more important for NS2 than it is for most games because it's only online and it's far more complicated than most games. Independent tutorials on specifics isn't really adequate enough, in my opinion. If UWE don't want to, perhaps a squad5 gold being waved in front of someone's nose could provide some incentive. Whatever it takes, to be honest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Post-agreed.
<!--quoteo(post=1939772:date=May 29 2012, 12:33 PM:name=BVKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BVKnight @ May 29 2012, 12:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939772"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why does it sound like everyone who is in a clan believes that clan games are the only correct way to play the game? I may join a clan in the future, but I have always enjoyed the randomness of just joining a server and joining a random team, and then having to work together.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1939863:date=May 29 2012, 06:44 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 29 2012, 06:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939863"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->because pubbers are afraid of comp players in every community and pretend to be persecuted to make themselves feel better about it (which indicates just how <i>casual </i>they really are)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was a masterful troll post, I applaud you. I especially liked how I asked a question about the attitude of clan players, based on the <b>actual comments made by competitive players <i>in this thread</b></i>, and your answer was that there is no spoon--i.e. public players are fabricating the notion that clan players have this attitude. Wonderful sleight-of-post.
+1 to throwing public games to teach new people how to comm. I would like to try comming one of these days, but don't currently because I don't play with a mic. The scripted tutorial is something I have wanted for a long time, and if I knew how to work with the game engine I would give it a go, but alas I do not :( .
Comments
Elitist view, anyone can play at a competitive level with enough determination/practice.
Not everyone has the time.
With opinions like this you're worse than the whiners.
Not everyone has the time.
With opinions like this you're worse than the whiners.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He said the player vs player whiners are usually the ones lacking in 'competitive-play material' and never said a player can't achieve that level with practice and determination.
So your... argument is flawed.
Not everyone has the time.
With opinions like this you're worse than the whiners.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please note I wrote from my experience and most of these players. That does not mean everyone.
The problem I see with most of these kind of players are they are unable to take criticism to improve their play. They also tend to focus to much on the their own play to see the bigger picture. Meaning its usually blame someone else if they do a mistake. This can be devastating for the team morale making them bad players. Again not everyone.
Sure they can always be good players with practice but attitude is just as important in high level competitive play. But I don't want this to go out of topic, we are talking about public play here.
because pubbers are afraid of comp players in every community and pretend to be persecuted to make themselves feel better about it (which indicates just how <i>casual </i>they really are)
The reality of the situation is that you have derived this gross and inaccurate sense of superiority because you play the game in more structured settings than <i>most</i> of the people who play the game. You believe you are in an elite minority. You are certainly in a minority, and you may very well play the game with more skill than most of the other players who will play the game. None of this really has any bearing on anything outside of the individual games, seasons, and leagues that you play in. That world is an entirely separate idea from the basics of gaming.
I don't play NS2 competitively. I only play it in pubs.
Your move.
Your move.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Address my argument where "the game" means Team Fortress 2.
I used to play TF2 competitively (for a small fraction of the time I spent pubbing in it) and observed during my time in it that pubbers are deathly afraid of competitive players, and don't try to understand competitive gaming at all. All these same arguments came and went, like they do in basically every game community, but the source is always pub players who need to feel special by tearing down people who are better than them (which they naturally fail at, causing them to look silly).
Good lord. You are not better than other people.
Didn't say I was (but I am).
Here: have a cookie
<img src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ZNEhexzUGQQ/RvylVLPXfGI/AAAAAAAAAcE/RXuzHTozj-U/s400/cookie_heart_Valentine_240760_l.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
(the cookie is shaped like a heart)
Oh look, internetexplorer running amok with a flamethrower in yet another thread, how new and refreshing.
Silly argument is silly, competitive players were once pubbers and pubbers maybe once competitive.
<b>
On-topic:</b>
Nooooo...! ;_; I'm guilty I confess! Sometimes, after a row of "professional" games, some newbie jumps into the chair and starts building turrets and you go like "aarghh...". But then I just remind myself that it's still a beta. :p Usually just reminding people it's a beta shuts whiners up. =^_^= But tbh I don't really see a whole lot of new players in EU. >_>
Edit: *is splitting heart cookies, eating halves and gluing halves together, muttering about a perfect crime*
If I could, I would pin a Squad 5 badge on every player I find helping newbie commanders. There is simply nothing more beneficial to the future health of the NS2 community than helping new players learn.
I have had so many games where i've told my team to build only 2 rts (3 total) and then put pressure on the alien harvesters because that gives you the most amount of res to use for tech before the fades come out assuming that you can kill couple of harvesters and don't lose any of your own (which is not difficult because you don't have to defend too many points and can focus solely on attacking). We have used this strategy in many competitive matches with success but in public it always fails because people start flaming and votekicking in the moment they realize that i'm not dropping more rts.
Incidents like these have killed all the motivation for public commanding for me.
At least i felt like it helped a lot in other games, and made the pub community advance faster.
Just last night I had someone flame me for not doing things just the way he/she wanted. Really killed my interest in the round and the next after that. On the bright side though, some pub crowds are much better, and after you've commed succesfully a round, you usually get a bit more leeway. Like, you can get the team to not whine when you don't drop any RTs and pull a jet-rush at the 4min mark ;)
Here: have a cookie
<img src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ZNEhexzUGQQ/RvylVLPXfGI/AAAAAAAAAcE/RXuzHTozj-U/s400/cookie_heart_Valentine_240760_l.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
(the cookie is shaped like a heart)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
COOKIE!
<img src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ZNEhexzUGQQ/RvylVLPXfGI/AAAAAAAAAcE/RXuzHTozj-U/s400/cookie_heart_Valentine_240760_l.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ZNEhexzUGQQ/RvylVLPXfGI/AAAAAAAAAcE/RXuzHTozj-U/s400/cookie_heart_Valentine_240760_l.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I contest this motion, only cookies for me!
It's you. You are the cancer in this game!
EDIT: Maybe I should read before posting...
<!--quoteo(post=1940010:date=May 30 2012, 02:20 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ May 30 2012, 02:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1940010"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really wish that a comprehensive tutorial was planned for 1.0 release - a good one with scripted events etc. It is more important for NS2 than it is for most games because it's only online and it's far more complicated than most games. Independent tutorials on specifics isn't really adequate enough, in my opinion. If UWE don't want to, perhaps a squad5 gold being waved in front of someone's nose could provide some incentive. Whatever it takes, to be honest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Post-agreed.
<!--quoteo(post=1939863:date=May 29 2012, 06:44 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 29 2012, 06:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1939863"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->because pubbers are afraid of comp players in every community and pretend to be persecuted to make themselves feel better about it (which indicates just how <i>casual </i>they really are)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was a masterful troll post, I applaud you. I especially liked how I asked a question about the attitude of clan players, based on the <b>actual comments made by competitive players <i>in this thread</b></i>, and your answer was that there is no spoon--i.e. public players are fabricating the notion that clan players have this attitude. Wonderful sleight-of-post.
+1 to throwing public games to teach new people how to comm. I would like to try comming one of these days, but don't currently because I don't play with a mic. The scripted tutorial is something I have wanted for a long time, and if I knew how to work with the game engine I would give it a go, but alas I do not :( .