<!--quoteo(post=2035685:date=Nov 27 2012, 11:27 AM:name=endar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (endar @ Nov 27 2012, 11:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035685"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry if it's been answered already, but have you considered making xenocide like it was in NS1? Still able to leap, bite without disrupting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> first off this was introduced a couple of builds back so I'm not sure if its a bug that slipped in or intended, I did like that you could cancel it but now I feel I want that back aswell. for Jim and Greeds basiclly what happens is that once you activate xenocide you can cancel it by switching back to another weapon.
Any thoughts on the game play progress bar or other ways of displaying how well teams are doing?
I think something like that plus more variables to how it's generated could make combat much more interesting and fair, at the moment we all know aliens are certain to win if the hive isn't destroyed, i think we can do better.
<!--quoteo(post=2035749:date=Nov 27 2012, 02:28 PM:name=Magneto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Magneto @ Nov 27 2012, 02:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035749"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Any thoughts on the game play progress bar or other ways of displaying how well teams are doing?
I think something like that plus more variables to how it's generated could make combat much more interesting and fair, at the moment we all know aliens are certain to win if the hive isn't destroyed, i think we can do better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I suggested that a couple of pages back but I belive xDragon said something in the line of the game would turn into suicide attacks into the other team's base and I have to agree with him on that. so for now that wont go in but we are always thinking of ways to prevent the current player behavior ( wich we are very well aware of ) while keeping it fun but it takes time so it wont happen over night.
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->very important to server OPs<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> I want to ask all the combat server operators to please join this group <a href="http://steamcommunity.com/groups/ns2combatops" target="_blank">http://steamcommunity.com/groups/ns2combatops</a> this will alllow us to easily get in contact with you to inform of upcoming versions/changes and maybe answer questions and a place where you can help eachother and share infomation.
<!--quoteo(post=2035783:date=Nov 27 2012, 02:51 PM:name=Jibrail)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jibrail @ Nov 27 2012, 02:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035783"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I suggested that a couple of pages back but I belive xDragon said something in the line of the game would turn into suicide attacks into the other team's base and I have to agree with him on that. so for now that wont go in but we are always thinking of ways to prevent the current player behavior ( wich we are very well aware of ) while keeping it fun but it takes time so it wont happen over night.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is something should be done, showing how well teams are doing wouldn't be a bad thing to make combat more interesting, perhaps making it partly based on hive/com damage isn't a good idea but we should at least try to balanced it so marines have a chance to win without killing the hive, to me that seems like something people would want improved but perhaps thats just me...
<!--quoteo(post=2036456:date=Nov 28 2012, 11:58 AM:name=Jibrail)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jibrail @ Nov 28 2012, 11:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036456"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know that the guys plan on implementing vote extend to combat so it might solve that a bit for now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's good to have the option but why can't we at least try something like this and see how it goes?
We have a few options to fix the default alien win... <ol type='1'><li>Simply make it a draw (boring but a quick fix).</li><li>Extend time in hopes that marines will take out the hive eventually.</li><li>Balance the team points given (handicapping aliens slightly if need be).</li><li>Add a progress bar to motivate teams to win (we only have a message for that at the moment).</li><li>Some combination of the above.</li></ol> I think adding a progress bar and tweaking the points is the best option, the bar doesn't have to be based on com/hive damage so no worry about base rushing, though i can't see the problem with that, the aim is to take out the teams base anyway so im not sure why anyone is worried it will be a problem, surely it's better to have players pushing to win than camping for points?
I don't see a problem with aliens being able to win by defending until time runs out. That was a very intentional win condition in NS1's combat. NS is designed to require marines to be the more aggressive team - it's important that it be this way because marines are way better at turtling than aliens. A time limit prevents marines from playing ultra conservative, camping long hallways to farm exp, etc, and instead keeps the game focused on more interesting conflicts with marines outside their comfort zone.
<!--quoteo(post=2037478:date=Nov 30 2012, 08:57 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 30 2012, 08:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037478"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't see a problem with aliens being able to win by defending until time runs out. That was a very intentional win condition in NS1's combat. NS is designed to require marines to be the more aggressive team - it's important that it be this way because marines are way better at turtling than aliens. A time limit prevents marines from playing ultra conservative, camping long hallways to farm exp, etc, and instead keeps the game focused on more interesting conflicts with marines outside their comfort zone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think that is what he was saying, I believe the Marines killed the hive right before the end of the game but there was a delay for it to register and so the aliens won, but I might have read it wrong.
Since the double damage thing was annoying me I decided to take a look and I found out that the damage indicator world message is added twice, once in the original NS2 code in NetworkMessages_Client.lua and another time in Combat's combat_TeamMixin.lua, commenting out the damage message in there made the numbers accurate again. I also found out that focus does not increase damage and instead just slows down your attacks from what I could see (2 bites + 1 parasite to kill a marine) :\
I had noticed that about focus also, it looks like you slow down the animation for focus, which isnt desireable always as it causes delays with hits (many animations have a hit tag that triggers the melee attack at a specific part of the animation). When its slowed down you can miss attacks because your timings gets thrown pretty far off.
I am not going to waste time trying to state my NS experience from the "olden" days of the mod. But if the creator(s) of the NS2 Combat Mod are reading this forum I have a suggestion. You need to reduce the number of fades that can be on an alien team to 2/3 availability. As it stands right now, an alien team with a lot of fades and some onos meat shields is pretty much a loss for the marines. If the marines cannot kill the alien hive before more than one fade or onos appears it is nearly always a loss.
A VERY good marine team can pull through and win it, but in the realm of pub play it becomes a losing battle. It takes a group of three marines with at least one having a shotgun to counter a fade in normal play. Within the spammy nature of combat, it takes roughly twice as many in order to keep pushing the front line. An average fade can kill a marine in each strike until that push is eliminated entirely. This is not taking into consideration other life forms that can support the fade.
Combat has never been a perfect game mod in its history, but there was at least a sliding scale of balance that made it quasi-predictable. As it stands, in games with more than 4 players on each side within this mod, fade spamming negates most of what a marine team can do. A fade is more durable than a single marine and exos are the tipping block of the marines against higher life forms. A group of shotgunners can hold off a fade but against an onos they are rather helpless as it slaughters them in 2/3 hits. Without a DPS machine that can do decent burst in a pinch like the old HMG, marines lack any ability to counter the groups of fades with onos meat shields that occur.
Combat has always been a decent mod to take a break from the regular game in the history of NS, but because people could let their aggression run rampant and still effective. As it stands, a marine not in an exo feels almost like a liability unless they become a dedicated welder. That is of course no fun.
<!--quoteo(post=2037941:date=Nov 30 2012, 10:23 AM:name=Mendasp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mendasp @ Nov 30 2012, 10:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037941"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since the double damage thing was annoying me I decided to take a look and I found out that the damage indicator world message is added twice, once in the original NS2 code in NetworkMessages_Client.lua and another time in Combat's combat_TeamMixin.lua, commenting out the damage message in there made the numbers accurate again. I also found out that focus does not increase damage and instead just slows down your attacks from what I could see (2 bites + 1 parasite to kill a marine) :\<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sadly these issues have (To my knowledge) been troublesome to fix, all I can say is its being worked on.
<!--quoteo(post=2038231:date=Dec 1 2012, 05:54 AM:name=FrostyOne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FrostyOne @ Dec 1 2012, 05:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038231"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am not going to waste time trying to state my NS experience from the "olden" days of the mod. But if the creator(s) of the NS2 Combat Mod are reading this forum I have a suggestion. You need to reduce the number of fades that can be on an alien team to 2/3 availability. As it stands right now, an alien team with a lot of fades and some onos meat shields is pretty much a loss for the marines. If the marines cannot kill the alien hive before more than one fade or onos appears it is nearly always a loss.
A VERY good marine team can pull through and win it, but in the realm of pub play it becomes a losing battle. It takes a group of three marines with at least one having a shotgun to counter a fade in normal play. Within the spammy nature of combat, it takes roughly twice as many in order to keep pushing the front line. An average fade can kill a marine in each strike until that push is eliminated entirely. This is not taking into consideration other life forms that can support the fade.
Combat has never been a perfect game mod in its history, but there was at least a sliding scale of balance that made it quasi-predictable. As it stands, in games with more than 4 players on each side within this mod, fade spamming negates most of what a marine team can do. A fade is more durable than a single marine and exos are the tipping block of the marines against higher life forms. A group of shotgunners can hold off a fade but against an onos they are rather helpless as it slaughters them in 2/3 hits. Without a DPS machine that can do decent burst in a pinch like the old HMG, marines lack any ability to counter the groups of fades with onos meat shields that occur.
Combat has always been a decent mod to take a break from the regular game in the history of NS, but because people could let their aggression run rampant and still effective. As it stands, a marine not in an exo feels almost like a liability unless they become a dedicated welder. That is of course no fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> let me start by saying that we do read here alot its after all our own topic, we welcome suggestions and feedback and we are aware of this and many other problems whether it's balance or bug realated and even feature requests, but our team is rather small atm so progress looks like its going slow even though there are many things being done under the hood that may not be as visible as others, we will get to it its just a question of when.
<!--quoteo(post=2038243:date=Nov 30 2012, 11:55 PM:name=Jibrail)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jibrail @ Nov 30 2012, 11:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038243"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->let me start by saying that we do read here alot its after all our own topic, we welcome suggestions and feedback and we are aware of this and many other problems whether it's balance or bug realated and even feature requests, but our team is rather small atm so progress looks like its going slow even though there are many things being done under the hood that may not be as visible as others, we will get to it its just a question of when.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is understandable, I do not have unreasonable expectations of 24 hour turn around. But it was an issue I felt should be brought forward just in case. If UWE is not going to make a combat mod for NS2 I would love to see this one develop and become great. I know a lot of people "hated" combat in NS but it did have a good place in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2038316:date=Dec 1 2012, 01:11 PM:name=MGS-3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MGS-3 @ Dec 1 2012, 01:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2038316"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Find this error :( <img src="http://ns2-fr.com/ingame/mgs3/ns2/combatbug.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This might be related to the code we've added that kills off any hydras if the player who placed them stops being a gorge for more than one minute.
As for the fade hardcap, it might be possible to set the hardcap so that only 1/2 of the team can be fades at any one time, and this is something we can implement quite easily... Jibs makes most of the balance decisions as he spends the most time playing in pubs so I'll leave this to him (Jim and I spend more time coding and less time actually playing than a lot of people!)
Hey guys I am running into a problem with the map. The issue is in the original aliens spawning area was way beyond the place the hive allows it as of right now. Is there a way to drop spawn positions for aliens? Or could we possibly build a trigger for this? It is causing issues to which the aliens are literally pinned into a corner at spawn.
Ok, fixed the Hydra bug and included now all the working entities from my ExtraEntitiesMod (<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=123297" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=123297</a>) to combat, so mappers can use them now to make cool combat fun maps.
I also included one test map (ns2_eem_test_level) where you can look how the entities work.
The Exo's DPS vs. the gorges HPS even with Adrenaline still feels like a 4:1 ratio. You get 2 Exo's on a 10 player map and it's eventually game over, especially when you face one Exo with a shotty, the spread is too much for an alien to dodge. Just noticed this in the past 3 games in combat.
Just my 2 cents on the whole "aliens win when time runs out" thing... If aliens can survive till the end, they deserve the win.
2 exos with 1 welder support to keep them polished and shiny till they make it to the hive can rip the hive down in under 10 seconds.
2 Onos with 1 gorge (with bile bomb) pounding on the command chair with everything they got takes 30+ seconds (which is more than enough time for an average marine team to react to and deal with it.
I have seen 4 gorges, a lerk with umbra spamming on the hive to keep it alive against 2 exos and the hive still folded faster than having 1/2 of the entire alien team beating down the comm chair with no marine resistance what so ever.
I'm sure that's something we can adjust... Regarding the inability of gorges to heal the hive quickly enough, I believe that this was a deliberate design decision to encourage repeated attacks as a valid strategy vs the stalemates we used to see, where each team could easily heal back up to 100% and the game would never end.
Comments
first off this was introduced a couple of builds back so I'm not sure if its a bug that slipped in or intended, I did like that you could cancel it but now I feel I want that back aswell.
for Jim and Greeds basiclly what happens is that once you activate xenocide you can cancel it by switching back to another weapon.
I think something like that plus more variables to how it's generated could make combat much more interesting and fair, at the moment we all know aliens are certain to win if the hive isn't destroyed, i think we can do better.
I think something like that plus more variables to how it's generated could make combat much more interesting and fair, at the moment we all know aliens are certain to win if the hive isn't destroyed, i think we can do better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I suggested that a couple of pages back but I belive xDragon said something in the line of the game would turn into suicide attacks into the other team's base and I have to agree with him on that. so for now that wont go in but we are always thinking of ways to prevent the current player behavior ( wich we are very well aware of ) while keeping it fun but it takes time so it wont happen over night.
<!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->very important to server OPs<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
I want to ask all the combat server operators to please join this group
<a href="http://steamcommunity.com/groups/ns2combatops" target="_blank">http://steamcommunity.com/groups/ns2combatops</a>
this will alllow us to easily get in contact with you to inform of upcoming versions/changes and maybe answer questions and a place where you can help eachother and share infomation.
The thing is something should be done, showing how well teams are doing wouldn't be a bad thing to make combat more interesting, perhaps making it partly based on hive/com damage isn't a good idea but we should at least try to balanced it so marines have a chance to win without killing the hive, to me that seems like something people would want improved but perhaps thats just me...
It's good to have the option but why can't we at least try something like this and see how it goes?
We have a few options to fix the default alien win...
<ol type='1'><li>Simply make it a draw (boring but a quick fix).</li><li>Extend time in hopes that marines will take out the hive eventually.</li><li>Balance the team points given (handicapping aliens slightly if need be).</li><li>Add a progress bar to motivate teams to win (we only have a message for that at the moment).</li><li>Some combination of the above.</li></ol>
I think adding a progress bar and tweaking the points is the best option, the bar doesn't have to be based on com/hive damage so no worry about base rushing, though i can't see the problem with that, the aim is to take out the teams base anyway so im not sure why anyone is worried it will be a problem, surely it's better to have players pushing to win than camping for points?
we've fixed the winning delay so game ends directly after killing the commandstructure.
we've fixed the winning delay so game ends directly after killing the commandstructure.
I don't think that is what he was saying, I believe the Marines killed the hive right before the end of the game but there was a delay for it to register and so the aliens won, but I might have read it wrong.
A VERY good marine team can pull through and win it, but in the realm of pub play it becomes a losing battle. It takes a group of three marines with at least one having a shotgun to counter a fade in normal play. Within the spammy nature of combat, it takes roughly twice as many in order to keep pushing the front line. An average fade can kill a marine in each strike until that push is eliminated entirely. This is not taking into consideration other life forms that can support the fade.
Combat has never been a perfect game mod in its history, but there was at least a sliding scale of balance that made it quasi-predictable. As it stands, in games with more than 4 players on each side within this mod, fade spamming negates most of what a marine team can do. A fade is more durable than a single marine and exos are the tipping block of the marines against higher life forms. A group of shotgunners can hold off a fade but against an onos they are rather helpless as it slaughters them in 2/3 hits. Without a DPS machine that can do decent burst in a pinch like the old HMG, marines lack any ability to counter the groups of fades with onos meat shields that occur.
Combat has always been a decent mod to take a break from the regular game in the history of NS, but because people could let their aggression run rampant and still effective. As it stands, a marine not in an exo feels almost like a liability unless they become a dedicated welder. That is of course no fun.
Sadly these issues have (To my knowledge) been troublesome to fix, all I can say is its being worked on.
-Daniel
A VERY good marine team can pull through and win it, but in the realm of pub play it becomes a losing battle. It takes a group of three marines with at least one having a shotgun to counter a fade in normal play. Within the spammy nature of combat, it takes roughly twice as many in order to keep pushing the front line. An average fade can kill a marine in each strike until that push is eliminated entirely. This is not taking into consideration other life forms that can support the fade.
Combat has never been a perfect game mod in its history, but there was at least a sliding scale of balance that made it quasi-predictable. As it stands, in games with more than 4 players on each side within this mod, fade spamming negates most of what a marine team can do. A fade is more durable than a single marine and exos are the tipping block of the marines against higher life forms. A group of shotgunners can hold off a fade but against an onos they are rather helpless as it slaughters them in 2/3 hits. Without a DPS machine that can do decent burst in a pinch like the old HMG, marines lack any ability to counter the groups of fades with onos meat shields that occur.
Combat has always been a decent mod to take a break from the regular game in the history of NS, but because people could let their aggression run rampant and still effective. As it stands, a marine not in an exo feels almost like a liability unless they become a dedicated welder. That is of course no fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
let me start by saying that we do read here alot its after all our own topic, we welcome suggestions and feedback and we are aware of this and many other problems whether it's balance or bug realated and even feature requests, but our team is rather small atm so progress looks like its going slow even though there are many things being done under the hood that may not be as visible as others, we will get to it its just a question of when.
That is understandable, I do not have unreasonable expectations of 24 hour turn around. But it was an issue I felt should be brought forward just in case. If UWE is not going to make a combat mod for NS2 I would love to see this one develop and become great. I know a lot of people "hated" combat in NS but it did have a good place in the game.
<img src="http://ns2-fr.com/ingame/mgs3/ns2/combatbug.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://ns2-fr.com/ingame/mgs3/ns2/combatbug.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This might be related to the code we've added that kills off any hydras if the player who placed them stops being a gorge for more than one minute.
As for the fade hardcap, it might be possible to set the hardcap so that only 1/2 of the team can be fades at any one time, and this is something we can implement quite easily... Jibs makes most of the balance decisions as he spends the most time playing in pubs so I'll leave this to him (Jim and I spend more time coding and less time actually playing than a lot of people!)
to combat, so mappers can use them now to make cool combat fun maps.
I also included one test map (ns2_eem_test_level) where you can look how the entities work.
2 exos with 1 welder support to keep them polished and shiny till they make it to the hive can rip the hive down in under 10 seconds.
2 Onos with 1 gorge (with bile bomb) pounding on the command chair with everything they got takes 30+ seconds (which is more than enough time for an average marine team to react to and deal with it.
I have seen 4 gorges, a lerk with umbra spamming on the hive to keep it alive against 2 exos and the hive still folded faster than having 1/2 of the entire alien team beating down the comm chair with no marine resistance what so ever.