<!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro-->I was wondering when this situation would get posted about. Hilarious as it is in the short term for the aliens, as Fana (I think) said a few days ago and I'm in full agreement: spikes are an abomination.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
also quite buggy. spawn a spike on a marine? He cant move till it's gone, and it's impossible to get out of as its frucking invincible (or damn near to it!)
<!--quoteo(post=1948873:date=Jul 5 2012, 12:21 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jul 5 2012, 12:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948873"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hi, spikes are op. I trapped 5 marines in reactor core for a minute or so and then we killed their CC. Please reconsider this game mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I thought well played and observed, quick reactions that thwarted our attempted early game shotgun rush (all be it rather haphazardly organised).
You don't have to look any further than SC2 forcefields to see how messy features like this get. I don't think it's necessarily impossible to find a good implementation, but it takes time, effort and sacrifices on other areas of gameplay to get such thing working. In general I'd say it's not worth the development time unless you really have some very solid reasons to go there.
The first time i heared about it I thought it would be like small traps that the comm can build cloaked and when a rine steps on it small spikes come out of the ground and slow down the rine + dealing a small amount of dmg (rly small). I would like a solution like that, cause it is not op and it can still help a bit.
And I don't like it if you are loosing and you command a last rush for a hive "to save the honor" and all get blocked by 1 mere spike and sniped down by aliens. It is horrible to know as player that you can't even overcome sth like that with skill or pure luck.
<!--quoteo(post=1948958:date=Jul 4 2012, 07:38 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jul 4 2012, 07:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948958"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To introduce such a feature at this stage of the game is far too bold. Fortune did not favour UWE this time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, very much this. It changes the whole positional game in situations it's used. That makes a huge difference in a dozen things.
I'd much prefer a slowing effect trap instead of one that completely stops. been looking forward to a way alien commanders can have direct influence in a fight but spikes might not be the way to do it.
Well I like them so nuts you all. Although there could be better things, someone suggested vines that shoot out of the ground and slow marines/drag JPs down. Still they could certainly benefit from being killable and perhaps having a longer cooldown (so you cannot chain them the way you can now).
I hate cysts enough as it is, infestation spikes are just... they make me want to kill myself. We've only seen the tip of the iceberg with them, you can use them like forcefields in SC2 to split marines, provide cover for aliens while you build 3 whips right there, if you hear them beacon to rush a hive you can spam spikes and flat out deny it with 3 t-res. Etc. Etc.
They are <b>immortal walls</b> you can put up anywhere with 100% uptime.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1948962:date=Jul 4 2012, 12:22 PM:name=[AwE]Sentinel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ([AwE]Sentinel @ Jul 4 2012, 12:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948962"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> The first time i heared about it I thought it would be like small traps that the comm can build cloaked and when a rine steps on it small spikes come out of the ground and slow down the rine + dealing a small amount of dmg (rly small). I would like a solution like that, cause it is not op and it can still help a bit.
And I don't like it if you are loosing and you command a last rush for a hive "to save the honor" and all get blocked by 1 mere spike and sniped down by aliens. It is horrible to know as player that you can't even overcome sth like that with skill or pure luck.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I completely agree, i too figured from the documents that it would be akin to a mine - counter-able in some sense.
If it was counte-rable, i.e., you could see a small patch of differentiating goo or something.. then it might be interesting and fun, like a meta game to set it off or avoid it completely. (throwing your pistol onto it?)
Infestation spike adds a lot of great options and situations to the game. Tweak it perhaps, but definitely don't remove it.
Extremely fun to use as the alien comm.
Part of it is also that marines need to be wary about trying to fight on the infestation, for a lot more reasons than just the spike. Dealing with spikes can be as easy as simply killing cysts before advancing into an area.
<!--quoteo(post=1949105:date=Jul 5 2012, 01:31 AM:name=Rise)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rise @ Jul 5 2012, 01:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949105"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Infestation spike adds a lot of great options and situations to the game. Tweak it perhaps, but definitely don't remove it.
Extremely fun to use as the alien comm.
Part of it is also that marines need to be wary about trying to fight on the infestation, for a lot more reasons than just the spike. Dealing with spikes can be as easy as simply killing cysts before advancing into an area.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Question: How do you kill cysts when the alien comm can afford to drop 5 for every 1 that you kill?
I really dont understand why they were added. I thought we already learned that commanders blocking other players with armories was bad, why would this be any better?
I don't think commanders should intervening more directly in the fights. We already see the problems that nanoshield+medpacks brings.
We can look at force fields in sc2, they are super strong, protoss almost always get a bunch of sentries. They sometimes prevent the opposing army to micro at all, which is quite boring. They also had some cheese problems, like blocking your opponent in their base forever by blocking their ramp. Even though they have some interesting aspects, they also hurt the game in many ways.
<!--quoteo(post=1949115:date=Jul 5 2012, 04:27 PM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Jul 5 2012, 04:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949115"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really dont understand why they were added. I thought we already learned that commanders blocking other players with armories was bad, why would this be any better?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> funny thing is armoury blocking was not even anywhere as bad as infestation spike. Two armouries are the same length as a spike. Thats 10 times the cost for something that was easily destroyed and didn't block the majority of lifeforms anyway. Design goal conflict to the max. Even if spikes are changed to take damage more like clogs, you still end up with a mechanic much worse than armoury blocking.
Spikes would be fine if they would cost more res (5 tRes seems good) and they really need to be counterable. Not only with flamer, but the flamer could kill them really fast. In exchange for their vulnerability they could stay longer.
Don't remove them, they are really fun and add tons of new game situations. They are just imbalanced right now.
<!--quoteo(post=1949147:date=Jul 5 2012, 11:47 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 5 2012, 11:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949147"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't remove them, they are really fun and add tons of new game situations. They are just imbalanced right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Take a look at SC2 forcefields. They make engaging hard and remove micro possibilities. They are also very much essential and game deciding in almost every engagement where they're not countered by EMP, massive units or some huge flank. In NS2 context I could see them being even more game breaking with doorways splitting marine groups apart, forcing melee range figths and so on.
Had these been introduced a year ago, I'd be interested in the potential interactions with the game. Right now I feel there are a dozen things where the dev time should be going rather than trying to make a problematic extra feature play along with the rest of the game.
Sorry, I don't play SC2 and can't argue about this force field. But I think it could be easy to balance the spikes, just with the right idea. Maybe they could be destructible with one axe hit and the flamer but with no other weapon? Would make them useless to block marine advance but would make them useful as a help in combat, where a marine can't just switch to the axe because he is dead before killing the spikes. Or a cooldown of 30seconds would make them only be used in deciding situations. Maybe a huge cost increase will balance them.
There are many possible solutions to the problems they produce. But I haven't played long enough with them to know and rate the importance of every problem. If so, I will make another thread with pro and cons and solutions to the cons.
I'm just thinking that removing an unpolished feature before anybody has even tried of imagining solutions is not the right way. It would be a real loss.
Comments
terrible idea + terrible implementation.
Please reconsider this game mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought well played and observed, quick reactions that thwarted our attempted early game shotgun rush (all be it rather haphazardly organised).
Atleast make it killable it is so stupid at the moment.
And I don't like it if you are loosing and you command a last rush for a hive "to save the honor" and all get blocked by 1 mere spike and sniped down by aliens. It is horrible to know as player that you can't even overcome sth like that with skill or pure luck.
Yeah, very much this. It changes the whole positional game in situations it's used. That makes a huge difference in a dozen things.
Completely unnecessary mistake.
They are <b>immortal walls</b> you can put up anywhere with 100% uptime.
Completely unnecessary mistake.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+9001 agree.
The first time i heared about it I thought it would be like small traps that the comm can build cloaked and when a rine steps on it small spikes come out of the ground and slow down the rine + dealing a small amount of dmg (rly small). I would like a solution like that, cause it is not op and it can still help a bit.
And I don't like it if you are loosing and you command a last rush for a hive "to save the honor" and all get blocked by 1 mere spike and sniped down by aliens. It is horrible to know as player that you can't even overcome sth like that with skill or pure luck.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I completely agree, i too figured from the documents that it would be akin to a mine - counter-able in some sense.
If it was counte-rable, i.e., you could see a small patch of differentiating goo or something.. then it might be interesting and fun, like a meta game to set it off or avoid it completely. (throwing your pistol onto it?)
>_>. Bring back energy!!
Tweak it perhaps, but definitely don't remove it.
Extremely fun to use as the alien comm.
Part of it is also that marines need to be wary about trying to fight on the infestation, for a lot more reasons than just the spike.
Dealing with spikes can be as easy as simply killing cysts before advancing into an area.
Tweak it perhaps, but definitely don't remove it.
Extremely fun to use as the alien comm.
Part of it is also that marines need to be wary about trying to fight on the infestation, for a lot more reasons than just the spike.
Dealing with spikes can be as easy as simply killing cysts before advancing into an area.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Question:
How do you kill cysts when the alien comm can afford to drop 5 for every 1 that you kill?
Completely unnecessary mistake.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this
We can look at force fields in sc2, they are super strong, protoss almost always get a bunch of sentries. They sometimes prevent the opposing army to micro at all, which is quite boring. They also had some cheese problems, like blocking your opponent in their base forever by blocking their ramp. Even though they have some interesting aspects, they also hurt the game in many ways.
funny thing is armoury blocking was not even anywhere as bad as infestation spike. Two armouries are the same length as a spike. Thats 10 times the cost for something that was easily destroyed and didn't block the majority of lifeforms anyway. Design goal conflict to the max. Even if spikes are changed to take damage more like clogs, you still end up with a mechanic much worse than armoury blocking.
Don't remove them, they are really fun and add tons of new game situations. They are just imbalanced right now.
Take a look at SC2 forcefields. They make engaging hard and remove micro possibilities. They are also very much essential and game deciding in almost every engagement where they're not countered by EMP, massive units or some huge flank. In NS2 context I could see them being even more game breaking with doorways splitting marine groups apart, forcing melee range figths and so on.
Had these been introduced a year ago, I'd be interested in the potential interactions with the game. Right now I feel there are a dozen things where the dev time should be going rather than trying to make a problematic extra feature play along with the rest of the game.
Maybe they could be destructible with one axe hit and the flamer but with no other weapon? Would make them useless to block marine advance but would make them useful as a help in combat, where a marine can't just switch to the axe because he is dead before killing the spikes.
Or a cooldown of 30seconds would make them only be used in deciding situations.
Maybe a huge cost increase will balance them.
There are many possible solutions to the problems they produce. But I haven't played long enough with them to know and rate the importance of every problem. If so, I will make another thread with pro and cons and solutions to the cons.
I'm just thinking that removing an unpolished feature before anybody has even tried of imagining solutions is not the right way. It would be a real loss.