Infestation spikes OP

Angelusz · July 2012

<span style="color:orange">This thread seems to be derailing without any proper arguments being presented. First and final warning, keep it civil and on-topic.</span>

hakenspit · July 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jul 6 2012, 03:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949323"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Have you seen cyst spam in the last 10 builds? I don't have to counter factually wrong statements. Cysts are undeniable in mid to late game. All that time you spend "instantly killing cysts" is time spent dying to the alien players.

If I say 2+2=5, do you have to prove me wrong or do you just quote me and say "Do you know how to math?"</div>
I would demand to see the proof but I have seen the proof for 1+1=2 (which could just as easily be 3) and like numbers.
sorry couldn't resist.... ;)

Cyst spam could be controlled by a cool down timer and entity limits, as indicated fresh cysts are very weak.

The spikes are limited to infested areas so really all they do is make early game hive rushes a lot harder.

By mid game it now forces marines to think about clearing out the infestation as they go and not simply leave it be so they can get to hive quicker.

I dont think the spike mechanic is overpowered...I was involved in teh game that started this thread and it was a failed marine game from the onset (took us 5 min to get our sh1t together) before the attempted hive shotgun rush.
We took a risk gambled and lost...a lack of an obs meant this was an all or nothing type of attack.

The ability to beacon marines out of such situations seems mostly ignored as a potential way of the team escaping.

Sure it might be frustrating when your trapped in reactor room...but no more so than when your trying to attack the nano'd marine being med spammed by the marine comm.

_Necro_ · July 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Jul 5 2012, 10:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949233"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>This seems to be a pretty clear rift with many 'experienced' players on one side and the rest on another.</div>

Funny. Because I think it seems to be a pretty clear rift between the players with creativity who can imagine how much potential the spikes have and how they could be tweaked to work and the players that always argument against new things that where not in NS1. And whose only solution to everything that doesn't work on the first try is: remove it.

But I think our both allegations are just terrible simplifications, trying to discredit the opinion of the other one.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jul 5 2012, 10:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949243"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I guess the main arguments are :

- It's not fun to be toyed around by an invisible, omniscient commander, instead of fighting players.
<span style="color:#00BFFF">This is a matter of opinion. Not only is it fun to interact directly with the players as commander. It also adds fear on the marine side when stepping on infestation.</span>
Even charlie agrees (almost) with this :

"Commanders shouldnâ€™t be able to do direct damage (violates perceived fairness in shooter)."
<span style="color:#00BFFF">The impact on the fairness in the shooter by the (soon to be) balanced spikes, will be not higher than this of Nanoshield or Medpacks.</span>
- It's not fun to fight static defense instead of players. There is too much static defense fights already.
<span style="color:#00BFFF">You don't fight the spikes. Even if they will be damageable, it's nothing close to hydras or sentries. And similar to every other building.</span>
- From starcraft 2 force fields experience it's seems hard to balance, prone to cheesy strategy, and can impair ability to micro in an unfun way.
<span style="color:#00BFFF">Microing Units like in an RTS is such a little part of NS2, I don't think you can apply this as an argument here.</span>
- It's redundant with the clogs.
<span style="color:#00BFFF">Not nearly. They function and effect the game in a complete other way with a complete other use.</span>
- Maybe there is more important things to fix first.
<span style="color:#00BFFF">Balancing the Spikes is not like a task that takes years. You only need the right idea. Tweaking them in the code is minute-job. Also if we would allow this argument, the devs should have stop bringing two-weakly builds a while ago and focusing only on optimization.</span>
- It's incoherent with the removal of armory blocking.
<span style="color:#00BFFF">No. Armory blocking was an exploit. An armory wasn't meant to block a way. Also the aliens relay much more on the ability to flee than marines, because of the higher lifeform costs and weapon drops.</span>

I let someone do the positive arguments, I can't do all the work here :)</div>

Yuuki · July 2012

Not bad, I'll not answer each of those but just to clarify this one:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Microing Units like in an RTS is such a little part of NS2, I don't think you can apply this as an argument here.</div>

The equivalent of micro in NS is positioning, movement, aiming, target selection, ... for example you can kite an onos as marine exactly like marauder kites an ultralisk in sc2 (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Kiting). So yeah, it's a big part of NS2.

Tweadle · July 2012

We were assured that any new <a href='index.php?showtopic=117596'>negative abilities</a> would be given serious thought and that they would avoid liberal applications. I think i'm also correct in recalling that, as new negative abilities were added, the possibility of toning down or removing others would be considered. Though some steps have been taken, I'm struggling to believe the sentiment with this slapdash implementation of the spikewall so close to release - I hope it's removed.

_Necro_ · July 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jul 6 2012, 12:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949351"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>The equivalent of micro in NS is positioning, movement, aiming, target selection, ... for example you can kite an onos as marine exactly like marauder kites an ultralisk in sc2 (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Kiting). So yeah, it's a big part of NS2.</div>

Ah ok, now I understand what you meant with that and you are right. It does affect the positioning etc. and I think this is one of the intentional uses of the spikes. A counter to a marine team that has very good teamplay and always attacks as a formated squad. The only problem: It is a hard counter right now and should be a soft counter. I think this will be fixed.

Uzguz · July 2012

Simple question: What problem were infestation spikes designed to solve?

Angelusz · July 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 6 2012, 12:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949359"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Ah ok, now I understand what you meant with that and you are right. It does affect the positioning etc. and I think this is one of the intentional uses of the spikes. A counter to a marine team that has very good teamplay and always attacks as a formated squad. The only problem: It is a hard counter right now and should be a soft counter. I think this will be fixed.</div>

I agree. I think Saba hits the nail on the head with her former post:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Jul 5 2012, 09:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949223"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>The spikes model is temporary. So obviously if it's going to be refined a lot of these grievances will be taken into account. Also giving clogs more damage resistance/health is out of the question.</div>
---
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Uzguz @ Jul 6 2012, 12:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949360"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Simple question: What problem were infestation spikes designed to solve?</div>

Don't pin me down on this one, but I believe it's similar to what gorges used to do with webs in NS1. Slowing down marine rushes so the aliens can jump to the rescue of an assailed hive and/or tactical support on infested battlegrounds.

I'm fairly confident that the implementation will change though. How? No idea.

_Necro_ · July 2012

@Uzguz: Game features are usually not meant to fix problems but to add a fun game mechanic that can be (in the best cases) creatively used.

TimMc · July 2012

Can't say I understand the rage about this. Spikes need some work, yes, but they are a fun concept and make being alien commander more interesting. I hope as alien comm I get more abilities like this since it makes me more involved with the battle, like the marines comm.

fanatic · July 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Angelusz @ Jul 6 2012, 11:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949361"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Don't pin me down on this one, but I believe it's similar to what gorges used to do with webs in NS1. Slowing down marine rushes so the aliens can jump to the rescue of an assailed hive and/or tactical support on infested battlegrounds.</div>
Webs were actually pretty obnoxious in NS1, as well as being prone to exploitation. They were only tolerable because their use was extremely limited and could only be used by the squishy gorge class. Webs only became available as an ability for the gorge once the aliens had three hives up, which usually meant the aliens had already won (and most games ended before aliens got three hives in any case).

Contrast that with the infestation spikes. The two really aren't comparable, so I hope that's not UWE's rationale for including it.

Both webs and infestation spikes are detrimental to FPS player enjoyment; at least for the player affected by them. What separates them, is how NS1 and NS2 deal with that fact. Compare the following:

Webs:
- Purpose: Help to make three-hive aliens formidable; overpower marine t3 tech (NS1 gameplay was balanced around marines having to deny the aliens from getting a third hive -- hive3 needed to have a higher potential "power level" than the top marine tech).
- Was very rarely used because most rounds ended before aliens got 3 hives.
- Could be seen and avoided by players.
- Had a "hardening time" to allow marines to avoid them or just break them by running through them before they became active.
- Could be destroyed by using the cheap welder or the more expensive grenade launcher.
- Only usable by the squishy, slow, vulnerable, gorge class.

Infestation spikes:
- Purpose: ???
- Can be used at any time, as many times as you want, provided there are enough available resources.
- Can't be seen or avoided by players.
- Instantaneous, no way to avoid or break.
- Runs on a timer, can't be damaged.
- Only usable by the unseen, unheard, invincible, alien commander class.

If you're going to put features like this into a game that's supposed to emphasize FPS over RTS, you had damn well better have both a really good reason (purpose) and effective ways of minimizing its detrimental effects on FPS gameplay.

Flayra · July 2012

I really like the concept of the infestation spike, but definitely don't want it to slow down or obstruct the game too much.

I reduced the spike time from 12 to 5 seconds and cranked up the cooldown to 10 seconds. Let's see where that gets us.

Raza. · July 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jul 6 2012, 11:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949482"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I really like the concept of the infestation spike, but definitely don't want it to slow down or obstruct the game too much.</div>

May I ask what the concept for the spike is? What is the main purpose; is it temporary cover, blocking players, maybe something else?

Ryne · July 2012

My vote would be for clogs removed, infestation spikes made to be permanent but with HP, and moved to gorge. Gorge could throw up a spike wall that marines have take down

TimMc · July 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jul 6 2012, 04:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949482"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I really like the concept of the infestation spike, but definitely don't want it to slow down or obstruct the game too much.

I reduced the spike time from 12 to 5 seconds and cranked up the cooldown to 10 seconds. Let's see where that gets us.</div>

hm not so sure I like the idea of it, since it changes it from an impasse to simply a mild delay. But I'll have to see how it plays out.

I still think making in vulnerable to flamers would be a better change though.

MiniH0wie · July 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raza. @ Jul 6 2012, 05:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949485"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>May I ask what the concept for the spike is? What is the main purpose; is it temporary cover, blocking players, maybe something else?</div>

Does it have to have a specific purpose? I mean, why canâ€™t it be used for multiple reasons, whether that means cover, blocking, etc.
Things like this I feel add dynamics to a game and can make playing the same game over and over different each time depending on how you use something.

{GGs} Chicken · July 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jul 6 2012, 02:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949482"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I really like the concept of the infestation spike, but definitely don't want it to slow down or obstruct the game too much.

I reduced the spike time from 12 to 5 seconds and cranked up the cooldown to 10 seconds. Let's see where that gets us.</div>

Honestly it's still just as bad. Can still completely negate a marine rush or trap marines and can still be a get out of jail free card for a lerk/fade/onos.

internetexplorer · July 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MiniH0wie @ Jul 6 2012, 06:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949489"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Does it have to have a specific purpose? I mean, why canâ€™t it be used for multiple reasons, whether that means cover, blocking, etc.
Things like this I feel add dynamics to a game and can make playing the same game over and over different each time depending on how you use something.</div>

Mechanics can add variety (not 'dynamics') to a game, but they are obviously designed with <i>some </i>idea in mind.

If we wanted true variety, we would give every player a torch and create a full thermodynamics model in the physics engine. Just imagine all the stuff you could do!

In the case of infestation spikes, they're very obviously designed as a band-aid fix to the problem of ARC trains dominating the entire game. They lack the 'dynamics' you mentioned, because every time they're used they simply crap on a situation for all players involved. The way you react to spikes is going to be the same every time, regardless of the team you're on.

If you want an example of something that has variety, take a look at the marine rifle. The number of different things you can do with that exceeds most other elements of the game. It's not controlled by a single button press, you can't use it anywhere from an omnipotent top-down perspective, and it has immediate disadvantages/weaknesses in different contexts (runs out of ammo, does less damage than other things, has to reload, etc etc).

Wheeee · July 2012

charlie, i honestly can't comprehend what you see in the infestation spike. the mechanic has absolutely 0 going for it gameplaywise, it's taking dev time away from more important things like getting the exo ready for launch and polishing the other parts of the game, as well as diverting art development that could be spent doing another pass on something else.

Marines have 0 ways to counter it. As long as it's invulnerable and spammable, with no visual, or auditory advanced warning, no way for players to prevent the mechanic from activating or taking it down once it does activate, it really is not interesting AT ALL. It just becomes something like the first iteration of misting - something that you just spammed because you can, and if you don't spam it then you're not being efficient. On the flip side, there's nothing that marines can do about it.

I also want to know why this ability is being included when there is already an alien ability that restricts marine movement - called the clog. If you feel that there is a need for infestation spikes, then clearly the clog is not doing its job correctly, and you should fix that instead of adding khamm hacks to the game.

hakenspit · July 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jul 7 2012, 08:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949482"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>I really like the concept of the infestation spike, but definitely don't want it to slow down or obstruct the game too much.

I reduced the spike time from 12 to 5 seconds and cranked up the cooldown to 10 seconds. Let's see where that gets us.</div>
I also like the spikes..and having been on the wrrong end of them I can see how much they could offer.

Thats a pretty drastic reduction in duration..personlly I think its too much of a drop off, I would have thought around 8 seconds duration.
The cooldown should be a couple of seconds longer than the duration..but onl by 2-5 or so seconds.

Marines ignore infestaion currently and that should not be the case...spikes offer them a reason to clear it.

Stick with it charlie..I also think the idea has merit.

MaximumSquid · July 2012

Remove some control away from it so it's not as abusive

Making it a pressure plate trap sounds fine. . .
Marines could bunch together to counter this in organized play since it wouldn't trigger until after everyone is off of the thing

You could further remove control away from the Khammander by making the trap slightly noticeable or by giving it a short build time and/or by forcing one to finish building before you can start a new one <i>(or have max count of 1 per hive)</i>

---

I didn't read the whole thread. . .
Were there any other complaints that this wouldn't outright fix?

-

Forever_rusty · July 2012

maybe give it hp so that i t cant stop a large push with a lot of amrines but can elay 1-2 marines, im thinking enough hp to take 5-8 shotguns shots

blind · July 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 6 2012, 04:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949404"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>- Purpose: ???
- Can be used at any time, as many times as you want, provided there are enough available resources.
- Can't be seen or avoided by players.
- Instantaneous, no way to avoid or break.
- Runs on a timer, can't be damaged.
- Only usable by the unseen, unheard, invincible, alien commander class.

If you're going to put features like this into a game that's supposed to emphasize FPS over RTS, you had damn well better have both a really good reason (purpose) and effective ways of minimizing its detrimental effects on FPS gameplay.</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra)</div><div class='quotemain'>I really like the concept of the infestation spike, but definitely don't want it to slow down or obstruct the game too much.

I reduced the spike time from 12 to 5 seconds and cranked up the cooldown to 10 seconds. Let's see where that gets us.</div>
So you adressed point 2 and ignored the rest.

I really don't understand the 'concept' of the infestation spike but to screw the FPS part of the game. It doesn't add strategic depth nor is it in any way counterable/avoidable by skill or experience. You'll just depend on luck that the khamm doesn't use it, screws up the usage of it or aliens don't use the advantage of it, while just sitting there being frustrated that you can't do anything against it. And if you nerf it that it's not OP, it'll just be a useless feature in the game making it even more complicated for new players.

Simply blows my mind. Or did I miss something dramatic?

DrFlammable · July 2012

just give them health. then marines can make decisions mid battle on whether or not it's worth it to cut them down or not if the comm is using them to split marines up. health/cost/cooldown can be adjusted based on when the design says spikes should be effective during which phase of the game.

i think they'd fit in great early game and you have lone marines suicide rushing your RTs so you can block them off long enough for skulks to defend. grenades would demolish spikes then with that hp balance in mind (2 level 0 lmg clips seems like a good early game balance to me so it's not instantly trivialized based on distance i.e. you shoot it down before it impedes the marine's path). can still be used somewhat effectively mid-late game as a mid-battle surprise to split up marine squads. spikes shouldn't be able to keep a marine away from an RT indefinitely, however, so probably 10-15 second cooldown.

player · July 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DrFlammable @ Jul 7 2012, 02:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949556"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>i think they'd fit in great early game and you have lone marines suicide rushing your RTs so you can block them off long enough for skulks to defend.</div>
If marines are able to sneak up to an alien-RT and take it down before the skulk-packs can adequately respond, the marines should be rewarded for their tactical-play, not have spikes shoved up their arse from outta nowhere.

I mentioned it before, but supposedly NS2 was to be more friendly to newcomers\casual-players, but the sheer amount of unintuitive features and hidden\obscure-mechanics now make this game even more daunting to get into than NS1 in its latter days.

Typhon · July 2012

Gotta agree with some of the other posters here. A hand from god saying "you shall not pass" is not good gameplay and cannot be made into good gameplay by simply fiddling with cooldowns.

1. Make them emerge from the ground to their full height over the course of a second or two, giving situationally-aware marines an opportunity to take action such as jumping over it before it gets too high, or just positioning themselves for an expected skulk attack.
2. Give it HP, enough to block a couple marines for the full normal duration, but not enough to stop a concerted push. Make it a building, effectively, so grenades can blast it apart with ease.

DrFlammable · July 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jul 6 2012, 11:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949563"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>If marines are able to sneak up to an alien-RT and take it down before the skulk-packs can adequately respond, the marines should be rewarded for their tactical-play, not have spikes shoved up their arse from outta nowhere.</div>

yeah i agree, you can't really use spikes when they're already on top of the RT anyways can you? i think it's red'd out to where you can't place it. that's not what I meant at all anyways. I was thinking you see the marines on your creep like the black blobs the alien comm sees and they're heading towards your rts so you block a hallway off to temporarily postpone their advancement. requries a really aware alien comm to pull off the kind of defense i'm talking about since the black blobs don't show up on your minimap. as an alien comm i'm <b>always</b> telling my skulks where the marines are because of the black blob on creep thing or just hearing them because i'm looking at the part of the minimap that they're at(which may or may not be intended because it's kinda imba being able to tell instantly where the marines spawned based on sound only).

the kind of implementation i'm talking about is purely preventative. when they're already on the RT you shouldn't be able to do anything to affect the marine.

Rise · July 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Jul 5 2012, 08:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949310"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>There is a huge difference between your opponent getting a bonus and you being disabled somehow. You're trying to equate a medic to a unit that snares or stops you from moving. Skill can overcome the other guy getting health, but in most FPS, if you can't move, you can't win.</div>

No, there isn't.
I consider it pretty negative for me if my opponent suddenly becomes super shielded and he kills me as a result.

If I'm a skulk and nanoshield goes up on my target, it has just completely reversed the course of that encounter in a way that is far more idiot proof to pull off than trying to cleverly spike to the marine's disadvantage.

player · July 2012

Nanoshield isn't very popular around here either. 2 wrongs et cetera...

Rise · July 2012

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bily @ Jul 5 2012, 08:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949316"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Whereas infestation spikes prevent marines from doing anything to effect a battle directly in front of them, where they were planning on going.</div>

That's the whole point of the spike, to dynamically alter the course of a battle by either stopping fire or marine movement in well timed ways.
And if you don't want to subject yourself to the possibility of having your plans foiled by having your team split, then I suggest you destroy the cysts as you advance with your team.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Worst of all they can be prevented from ever affecting said battle with the current implementation's spamability.</div>

I don't think that's a serious issue considering the massive amount of res it would take to wall off just a single corridor.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Even if the ability to spam spikes is reduced, spikes slowing marine progress by providing a physical barrier is still a similar role of what the clog was meant to do. (Presumably, but who really knows what the clog was meant to do)</div>

Not remotely the same.
The clog is not dynamic, it can't be used in the way spikes can to influence the course of a battle unexpectedly and instantly.
And spikes can't be used to support static defensive emplacements like clogs can.

Infestation spikes OP

Comments